Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible

  • Thread starter Codebreaker@bigsecret.com
  • Start date
On Feb 18, 3:51 pm, "the_Host" <the_H...@everywhere.net> wrote:
> "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1171825168.844983.77200@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Feb 18, 1:33 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
> > > codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:
> > > > On Feb 17, 5:04 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >> Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > >>> On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>> Jeckyl wrote:
> > > >>>>>> You are such a prentious little asshole...
> > > >>>>> Charming.
> > > >>>>>> The same way people are trained to explain the American
> > > >>>>>> Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel
> > > >>>>>> trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.
> > > >>>>>> You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about
> > > >>>>>> your PRIVATE OPINION.
> > > >>>>> So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the
> messiah ?
> > > >>>>>> You are not a good Historian either
> > > >>>>> You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of
> historial
> > > >>>>> evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he
> was
> > > >>>>> supposedly alive.
> > > >>>>>> Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or
> > > >>>>>> a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy
> > > >>>>>> 18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ
> > > >>>>> Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is
> beside the
> > > >>>>> point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old
> testament and
> > > >>>>> jewish scripture do not say that.
> > > >>>>>> Do you think that being historian mean reading the works
> > > >>>>>> by some Historians?
> > > >>>>>> Being historian means being able to investigate and find the
> cause
> > > >>>>>> and effect.
> > > >>>>> Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you
> would cite
> > > >>>>> the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.
> > > >>>>>> Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.
> > > >>>>> It certainly does not support yours.
> > > >>>>>> JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST
> > > >>>>> Shame that.
> > > >>>> ===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen
> > > >>>> the Pauline claims about "Christ".
> > > >>> It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.
> > > >>> Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted
> > > >>> Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.
> > > >> ===>I don't "believe" it.
> > > >> I KNOW it.
>
> > > >>> Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always
> > > >>> based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.>> ===>FALSE ASSertiom you keep
> repeating.
>
> > > > Did not you say that Rabbi Akiva believe Bar-Khobba
> > > > was the Messiah/Christ.
>
> > > He goofed, and he paid the price.
>
> > > > We are reading the same source about Bar-Khobbah's
> > > > claim, so If you can't connect the DOTS
> > > > we can help you connect them. But before anything let me
> > > > ask you some:
> > > > Bar-Khobbah claimed that he was the Messiah. Where
> > > > do you think that he based his claim on?
> > > > Rabbi Akiva anointed Bar-Khobba thinking he was the
> > > > Messiah/Christ, though he changed his mind later,
> > > > where do you think he based his claim on?.
>
> > > > Now as you see. Bar Khobba, Rabbi Akiva
> > > > Jesus, Paul, Peter, Appolos, Stephen, the author
> > > > of the Qur'an, The Ebionites
> > > > and thousand of Rabbis who later
> > > > converted into Islam all agree on one thing:
> > > > in Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses fortold the Messiah.
> > > > And this is what we have been saying.
>
> > > It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains lots
> > > of Prophets.
>
> > The text say, you shall listen to HIM and not to THEM.
> > So it does not matter how many prophets arose in Israel
> > here we are concerned with only one particular prophet
> > like Moses and that is the Messiah/Christ.
> > LITTLE COMMON SENSE IS WHAT YOU NEED SON
> > OF A JEWISH WHORE
>
> Prove he is the son of a Jewish whore!!!
> Didn't think you could....
>
> Host- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You are the proof. Otherwise you would not be here
 
"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote
> weatherwax perhaps from weatherwax@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote
>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote
>>>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I assume that you have a more probable theory.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do.
>>>>> Jesus never existed.
>>>>> I assume by your reply that you have ZERO EVIDENCE
>>>>> for your outrageous estimate of probability??
>>>>> Yes, I thought so.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am interested to hear
>>>>>> your proof that Paul did not exist,
>>>>>
>>>>> Non sequitur!!!
>>>>> Read what I wrote.
>>>>> I was referring to Jesus, as were you!
>>>>>
>>>>>>and if Christianity did not start with
>>>>>>Paul, who started it, and when did it begin?
>>>>>
>>>>> You are conflating my personally not being able to name
>>>>> the con-men that started the scam, with proof that
>>>>> Jesus and Paul really existed!!
>>>>> Where did your brain go on holiday too?
>>>>>
>>>>> **** me, you are as bad as the worst theist kooks.
>>>>
>>>>In other words: You have no credible theory.
>>>
>>> I don't believe it!
>>> Are you deliberately acting stupid?
>>>
>>> You plainly did not read what I wrote.
>>>
>>> I have the very plausible theory that most of the Christian
>>> fairy tale was invented by humans with a vested interest in
>>> power.
>>>
>>> That is far more credible than anything that delusional
>>> apologists have arrived at, and far exceeds the non-existent
>>> plausiblility of your baseless guesses on the subject.
>>>
>>> You never did answer me as to where you brain is currently
>>> holidaying.
>>
>> So you have a conspiracy theory. Those are easy to make
>> up, and sound convincing, but are less than worthless.
>>
>> --Wax
>
> It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory. As the adage says --
> don't attribute to malice what can be accounted for by
> stupidity. For example ask almost anyone who got kicked out
> of the Garden of Eden and to a person they will say Adam and
> Eve even though some of them have read those scriptures more
> than a hundred times. Yet they would be wrong. The bible
> makes an explicit point to say the MAN (and only the
> MAN) was sent from Eden.

Michael Gray said. "I have the very plausible theory that most of the
Christian fairy tale was invented by humans with a vested
interest in power." That's called a "conspiracy theory."

--Wax
 
"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote
> Bible Believer perhaps from noway@nowhere.com wrote:
< CLIP >
>>
>> And it's not about "extraordinary claims requiring
>> extraordinary evidence", because Caesar claimed to be,
>> "God above all gods" and yet,
>
> Where did he do this?

Julius Caesar never claimed to be a God, but Augustus saw him in a vision
and had the Roman Senate declare Caesar to be a God. This allowed Augustus
to claim the title "Son of God". I don't know if Tiberius made any such
claims, but Caligula said he was an incarnated God.

--Wax
 
>> It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains lots
>> of Prophets.
> The text say, you shall listen to HIM and not to THEM.

That is a point .. it refers to a particular prophet. Which prophet, it
doesn't say.

it does not say that prophet is the Christ or Messiah, just that the prophet
will speak God's word, and then goes on to describe how you can tell (which
is basically, if a prophecy comes true, it came from God, otherwise it
didn't)

> So it does not matter how many prophets arose in Israel
> here we are concerned with only one particular prophet
> like Moses

Yes

> and that is the Messiah/Christ.

It doesn't say that. You're reading things into it that aren't actually
there. It may well be that the people beofer and up to the time of Jesus
believed that .. people do tend to read a lot into individual lines of
scripture. Do we have any information about what was actually taught and
believed in those times regarding the prophet described in that verse being
associated also with the messiah?

Note: I'm not saying it wasn't .. just that the verse itself does not make
that association. And "yes it does / no it doesn't" arguments aren't
helping at all. Nor do presenting the interpretations of people AFTER that
time. I'd just like to see something relevant that proves (or illustrates)
your point about how people pre-Jesus did actually interpret the prophet
describe to be.

> LITTLE COMMON SENSE IS WHAT YOU NEED SON
> OF A JEWISH WHORE

Again, personal insults. You're losing any respect I may have had for you by
lowering yourself like that. And you dare to call yourself a chrristian.
Shame.
 
> Here is what dragged the Muslims.
> Yet I did not write it:
> Say people of the Book!
> commit no excesses in your religion:
> Nor say of God nothing but truth.
> MESSIAH/CHRIST, Jesus the Son of Mary
> was a Messenger of God, and His
> WORD, which He casted in Mary,
> and a Spirit proceeding from Him
> So believe in God and His Messengers,
> Say not Three: desist it will
> be better for you for God is one.
> Glory be to Him for far exalted
> is He above having a Son. To
> Him belong all things in heaven and on
> earth. And enough is
> God as a disposer of affairs. Qur'an 4:171

Yes, the Quran does recognize the Christian claim that Jesus is the Messiah.
But it says nothing about the passage in Deut predicting the messiah. That
quote from the Quran does not mean that people at and before the time of
Jesus associated the prophet promised in that passage of Deut with the
Messiah, or that Jesus was that prophet.

BTW: you missed out on an 'only' in 'was ONLY a messenger of Allah'.
 
> Even If Jesus did write something

If he did, and we had it, that would bethe evidence that we want to see.

> we know you as malicious ****s

Who are you calling a malicious ****?

> Did not Moses write the Torah, was that enough to count him
> as a historical figure?

I don't think people doubt the existence of Moses.

> **** YOU AAAAALLLLLLLLLL

You obviously know that you have no grounds for your supposed arguments if
you are resorting to swearing and name calling . Very unchristian.
 
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 19:01:56 GMT, "weatherwax"
<weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <Eo1Ch.86572$2m6.79831@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote
>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote
>>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I assume that you have a more probable theory.
>>>>
>>>> I do.
>>>> Jesus never existed.
>>>> I assume by your reply that you have ZERO EVIDENCE for
>>>> your outrageous estimate of probability??
>>>> Yes, I thought so.
>>>>
>>>>> I am interested to hear
>>>>>your proof that Paul did not exist,
>>>>
>>>> Non sequitur!!!
>>>> Read what I wrote.
>>>> I was referring to Jesus, as were you!
>>>>
>>>>>and if Christianity did not start with
>>>>>Paul, who started it, and when did it begin?
>>>>
>>>> You are conflating my personally not being able to name the
>>>> con-men that started the scam, with proof that Jesus and
>>>> Paul really existed!!
>>>> Where did your brain go on holiday too?
>>>>
>>>> **** me, you are as bad as the worst theist kooks.
>>>
>>>In other words: You have no credible theory.
>>
>> I don't believe it!
>> Are you deliberately acting stupid?
>>
>> You plainly did not read what I wrote.
>>
>> I have the very plausible theory that most of the Christian fairy
>> tale was invented by humans with a vested interest in power.
>>
>> That is far more credible than anything that delusional apologists
>> have arrived at, and far exceeds the non-existent plausiblility of
>> your baseless guesses on the subject.
>>
>> You never did answer me as to where you brain is currently
>> holidaying.
>
>So you have a conspiracy theory. Those are easy to make up, and sound
>convincing, but are less than worthless.

Once again, you do not appear to have read what I wrote.

I see that I made a mistake in assuming that a conversation with you
might be of some productive value, but I see that I am wasting my
time.

By your pathetic "logic", anyone who claims that Sherlock Holmes is
not real is indulging in a conspiracy theory??

Gimme a break.

Get real or get plonked.

--
 
My point is that there is LESS evidence for Jesus than for John the Baptist.
At least the account in Josephus is regarded as legitimate, rather than the
much latter addition of a passage about Jesus. Josephus is _close_ to
contemporary evidence for John (who was beheaded around the same time as
Josephus was born). He would have had access at least to those who were
contemporary with John, but that still makes it technically hearsay
evidence.

> Codebreaker can no more provide evidence that John the Baptist nor any
> apostle existed any more than he could for Joshua ben Joseph.

The point I'm making is that he can provide even LESS evidence for Jesus
that for those other figures like John whose evidence is arguable.
 
>>Yes . .there is a great deal in the story that is based on other myths and
>>legends and has been constructed to appear to fulfil scriptures.
> It is the other way around.

That doesn't seem to make sense .. those myths and legends existed before
the bible stories were written. So they could not have been written to
fullfil scripture.

>>So is saying no such person exists. We have no conclusive proof either
>>way
>>.. but there is non-conclusive 'evidence' (in the bible and elsewhere).
> The science of textual criticism states that we accept
> a text as true, until it is proved false. Especially one
> that is historically accurate and the Bible texts are.

They are not historically accurate .. like any good work of fiction, they
have some historical facts within them .. that does not make them factual or
accurate documents.

Regardless. the bible stories that are written as first-hand information
about Jesus are not contemporary with Jesus, and those that are cloer to
contmporary are not first hand (Paul never met Jesus) so both are
inadmissable.

Maybe we will find something some day that is .. its amazing what new things
archeoligst uncover.

> See above. The fact is, that you don't question the existence
> of many historical figures, even though their existence is
> based on a copy of single text, by a third party much later.

Which figures are you referring to?

And regardless.. I ahve bene talking here about historical proof .. There is
none.

>>> As there is none for, there is no reason to assume he did.
>>And none to assume he didn't. It works both ways.
>>However, there is strong evidence against many of the events that were
>>supposed to take place concerning Jesus.
> That's not true.

Yes .. it is. However, it is not historically provable, but that none of
the events were recorded as having happened. Events of the significance and
far reaching effects (erathquakes, multitudes follwoing Jesus, herod killing
children, etc) would have been recorded somewhere .. but they haven't. That
evidence (or I guess technically, lack of evidence) strongly suggests that
those events did not happen). But it si not really historical proof.

> What critics try to do, is use the date of a council in the
> 4th century and demand to know why certain books
> were excluded, without ever asking when the books were
> written and wondering if that's the reason they were excluded.
> Hello??? :)

Yes .. and that has nothing to do with historical proof .. its theology.
 
After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 18 February 2007 4:48 pm
weatherwax perhaps from weatherwax@worldnet.att.net wrote:

>
> "Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote
>> weatherwax perhaps from weatherwax@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>>> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote
>>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote
>>>>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I assume that you have a more probable theory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do.
>>>>>> Jesus never existed.
>>>>>> I assume by your reply that you have ZERO EVIDENCE
>>>>>> for your outrageous estimate of probability??
>>>>>> Yes, I thought so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am interested to hear
>>>>>>> your proof that Paul did not exist,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Non sequitur!!!
>>>>>> Read what I wrote.
>>>>>> I was referring to Jesus, as were you!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>and if Christianity did not start with
>>>>>>>Paul, who started it, and when did it begin?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are conflating my personally not being able to name
>>>>>> the con-men that started the scam, with proof that
>>>>>> Jesus and Paul really existed!!
>>>>>> Where did your brain go on holiday too?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **** me, you are as bad as the worst theist kooks.
>>>>>
>>>>>In other words: You have no credible theory.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe it!
>>>> Are you deliberately acting stupid?
>>>>
>>>> You plainly did not read what I wrote.
>>>>
>>>> I have the very plausible theory that most of the Christian
>>>> fairy tale was invented by humans with a vested interest in
>>>> power.
>>>>
>>>> That is far more credible than anything that delusional
>>>> apologists have arrived at, and far exceeds the non-existent
>>>> plausiblility of your baseless guesses on the subject.
>>>>
>>>> You never did answer me as to where you brain is currently
>>>> holidaying.
>>>
>>> So you have a conspiracy theory. Those are easy to make
>>> up, and sound convincing, but are less than worthless.
>>>
>>> --Wax
>>
>> It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory. As the adage says --
>> don't attribute to malice what can be accounted for by
>> stupidity. For example ask almost anyone who got kicked out
>> of the Garden of Eden and to a person they will say Adam and
>> Eve even though some of them have read those scriptures more
>> than a hundred times. Yet they would be wrong. The bible
>> makes an explicit point to say the MAN (and only the
>> MAN) was sent from Eden.
>
> Michael Gray said. "I have the very plausible theory that most of the
> Christian fairy tale was invented by humans with a vested
> interest in power." That's called a "conspiracy theory."

No it isn't. To be a conspiracy all of those writers would have had to
act in unison. That wasn't what happened. And outside the scribes
that were in a conspiracy to concoct the Torah "discovered" by King
Josiah, there is no evidence any of the other biblical writers actually
knew each other especially when considering almost all of scripture was
written anonymously.

It was more in the nature of knowing a good story and running with it
and changing some of it to fit one's own theology/philosophy.

>
> --Wax

--
Later,
Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
 
On Feb 14, 8:02 am, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"
<Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
> On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:
>
> > >On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
> > > --
> > >Try showing that site to an actual historian.
> > >See how hard you get laughed at.
>
> > Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the
> > Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic
> > Jesus.
>
> There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

Right. And there wouldn't be Mithraists without Mithra. Moron.
 
"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
news:1171832599.665162.296470@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 18, 3:51 pm, "the_Host" <the_H...@everywhere.net> wrote:
> > "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:1171825168.844983.77200@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 18, 1:33 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
> > > > codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 17, 5:04 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >> Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>> On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius
<Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>> Jeckyl wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> You are such a prentious little asshole...
> > > > >>>>> Charming.
> > > > >>>>>> The same way people are trained to explain the American
> > > > >>>>>> Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel
> > > > >>>>>> trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.
> > > > >>>>>> You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about
> > > > >>>>>> your PRIVATE OPINION.
> > > > >>>>> So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as
the
> > messiah ?
> > > > >>>>>> You are not a good Historian either
> > > > >>>>> You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of
> > historial
> > > > >>>>> evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when
he
> > was
> > > > >>>>> supposedly alive.
> > > > >>>>>> Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or
> > > > >>>>>> a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy
> > > > >>>>>> 18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ
> > > > >>>>> Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is
> > beside the
> > > > >>>>> point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old
> > testament and
> > > > >>>>> jewish scripture do not say that.
> > > > >>>>>> Do you think that being historian mean reading the works
> > > > >>>>>> by some Historians?
> > > > >>>>>> Being historian means being able to investigate and find the
> > cause
> > > > >>>>>> and effect.
> > > > >>>>> Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise
you
> > would cite
> > > > >>>>> the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.
> > > > >>>>>> Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.
> > > > >>>>> It certainly does not support yours.
> > > > >>>>>> JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST
> > > > >>>>> Shame that.
> > > > >>>> ===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen
> > > > >>>> the Pauline claims about "Christ".
> > > > >>> It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.
> > > > >>> Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted
> > > > >>> Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.
> > > > >> ===>I don't "believe" it.
> > > > >> I KNOW it.
> >
> > > > >>> Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always
> > > > >>> based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.>> ===>FALSE ASSertiom you keep
> > repeating.
> >
> > > > > Did not you say that Rabbi Akiva believe Bar-Khobba
> > > > > was the Messiah/Christ.
> >
> > > > He goofed, and he paid the price.
> >
> > > > > We are reading the same source about Bar-Khobbah's
> > > > > claim, so If you can't connect the DOTS
> > > > > we can help you connect them. But before anything let me
> > > > > ask you some:
> > > > > Bar-Khobbah claimed that he was the Messiah. Where
> > > > > do you think that he based his claim on?
> > > > > Rabbi Akiva anointed Bar-Khobba thinking he was the
> > > > > Messiah/Christ, though he changed his mind later,
> > > > > where do you think he based his claim on?.
> >
> > > > > Now as you see. Bar Khobba, Rabbi Akiva
> > > > > Jesus, Paul, Peter, Appolos, Stephen, the author
> > > > > of the Qur'an, The Ebionites
> > > > > and thousand of Rabbis who later
> > > > > converted into Islam all agree on one thing:
> > > > > in Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses fortold the Messiah.
> > > > > And this is what we have been saying.
> >
> > > > It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains
lots
> > > > of Prophets.
> >
> > > The text say, you shall listen to HIM and not to THEM.
> > > So it does not matter how many prophets arose in Israel
> > > here we are concerned with only one particular prophet
> > > like Moses and that is the Messiah/Christ.
> > > LITTLE COMMON SENSE IS WHAT YOU NEED SON
> > > OF A JEWISH WHORE
> >
> > Prove he is the son of a Jewish whore!!!
> > Didn't think you could....
> >
> > Host- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You are the proof. Otherwise you would not be here
>
You have to do better than that, that wasn't even funny...

Host
yo
 
Tohu.Bohu@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
> wrote:
>
>>Jeckyl wrote:
>>
>>>>You are such a prentious little asshole...
>>
>>>Charming.
>>
>>>>The same way people are trained to explain the American
>>>>Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel
>>>>trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.
>>>>You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about
>>>>your PRIVATE OPINION.
>>
>>>So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the messiah ?
>>
>>>>You are not a good Historian either
>>
>>>You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of historial
>>>evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he was
>>>supposedly alive.
>>
>>>>Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or
>>>>a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy
>>>>18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ
>>
>>>Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is beside the
>>>point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old testament and
>>>jewish scripture do not say that.
>>
>>>>Do you think that being historian mean reading the works
>>>>by some Historians?
>>>>Being historian means being able to investigate and find the cause
>>>>and effect.
>>
>>>Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you would cite
>>>the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.
>>
>>>>Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.
>>
>>>It certainly does not support yours.
>>
>>>>JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST
>>
>>>Shame that.
>>
>>===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen
>>the Pauline claims about "Christ".
>
>
>
> It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.
> Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted
> Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.
> Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always
> based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.

===>No claiom is based on Deut. 18:14-19,
only YOURS. -- L.
 
Christopher A.Lee wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:57:58 +1100, "Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>Given the fact Jesus TRIAL is mentioned in the Talmuld a book
>>>by Jesus enemies.
>>
>>Can you please quote the reference to it.
>
>
> It seems to be a later response to what Christians said. But all I
> know of this comes from a book by Frank Zindler, The Jesus the Jews
> Never Knew.

===>The Jews have known THOUSANDS of "Yeshuas".
But nobody knew the IESOUS of Gospel fiction,
since he never existed. -- L.
 
codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 17, 5:04 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
> wrote:
>
>>Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>Jeckyl wrote:
>>
>>>>>>You are such a prentious little asshole...
>>
>>>>>Charming.
>>
>>>>>>The same way people are trained to explain the American
>>>>>>Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel
>>>>>>trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.
>>>>>>You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about
>>>>>>your PRIVATE OPINION.
>>
>>>>>So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the messiah ?
>>
>>>>>>You are not a good Historian either
>>
>>>>>You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of historial
>>>>>evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he was
>>>>>supposedly alive.
>>
>>>>>>Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or
>>>>>>a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy
>>>>>>18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ
>>
>>>>>Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is beside the
>>>>>point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old testament and
>>>>>jewish scripture do not say that.
>>
>>>>>>Do you think that being historian mean reading the works
>>>>>>by some Historians?
>>>>>>Being historian means being able to investigate and find the cause
>>>>>>and effect.
>>
>>>>>Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you would cite
>>>>>the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.
>>
>>>>>>Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.
>>
>>>>>It certainly does not support yours.
>>
>>>>>>JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST
>>
>>>>>Shame that.
>>
>>>>===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen
>>>>the Pauline claims about "Christ".
>>
>>>It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.
>>>Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted
>>>Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.
>>
>>===>I don't "believe" it.
>>I KNOW it.
>>
>>
>>>Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always
>>>based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.
>>
>>===>FALSE ASSertiom you keep repeating.
>
>
> Did not you say that Rabbi Akiva believe Bar-Khobba
> was the Messiah/Christ.

===>He PROCLAIMED Bar Kokhba as the Messiah.

> We are reading the same source about Bar-Khobbah's
> claim, so If you can't connect the DOTS
> we can help you connect them. But before anything let me
> ask you some:
> Bar-Khobbah claimed that he was the Messiah. Where
> do you think that he based his claim on?

===>Definitely NOT on Deuteronomy!
Only YOU keep ASSSerting that it has to do with
"the Messiah". -- L.
 
On Feb 18, 7:09 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
wrote:
> Christopher A.Lee wrote:
> > On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:57:58 +1100, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >>>Given the fact Jesus TRIAL is mentioned in the Talmuld a book
> >>>by Jesus enemies.
>
> >>Can you please quote the reference to it.
>
> > It seems to be a later response to what Christians said. But all I
> > know of this comes from a book by Frank Zindler, The Jesus the Jews
> > Never Knew.
>
> ===>The Jews have known THOUSANDS of "Yeshuas".
> But nobody knew the IESOUS of Gospel fiction,
> since he never existed. -- L.


You did not do your RESEARCH. Were all those thousand
IESOUS born of Maries?
 
On Feb 18, 7:07 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
wrote:
> Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
> > wrote:
>
> >>Jeckyl wrote:
>
> >>>>You are such a prentious little asshole...
>
> >>>Charming.
>
> >>>>The same way people are trained to explain the American
> >>>>Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel
> >>>>trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.
> >>>>You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about
> >>>>your PRIVATE OPINION.
>
> >>>So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the messiah ?
>
> >>>>You are not a good Historian either
>
> >>>You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of historial
> >>>evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he was
> >>>supposedly alive.
>
> >>>>Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or
> >>>>a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy
> >>>>18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ
>
> >>>Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is beside the
> >>>point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old testament and
> >>>jewish scripture do not say that.
>
> >>>>Do you think that being historian mean reading the works
> >>>>by some Historians?
> >>>>Being historian means being able to investigate and find the cause
> >>>>and effect.
>
> >>>Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you would cite
> >>>the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.
>
> >>>>Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.
>
> >>>It certainly does not support yours.
>
> >>>>JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST
>
> >>>Shame that.
>
> >>===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen
> >>the Pauline claims about "Christ".
>
> > It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.
> > Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted
> > Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.
> > Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always
> > based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.
>
> ===>No claiom is based on Deut. 18:14-19,
> only YOURS. -- L.


You are not even honest with the text
 
cactus wrote:

> codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
>
>> On Feb 17, 5:04 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jeckyl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are such a prentious little asshole...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charming.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The same way people are trained to explain the American
>>>>>>> Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel
>>>>>>> trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.
>>>>>>> You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about
>>>>>>> your PRIVATE OPINION.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the
>>>>>> messiah ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are not a good Historian either
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of historial
>>>>>> evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he was
>>>>>> supposedly alive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or
>>>>>>> a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy
>>>>>>> 18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is
>>>>>> beside the
>>>>>> point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old
>>>>>> testament and
>>>>>> jewish scripture do not say that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think that being historian mean reading the works
>>>>>>> by some Historians?
>>>>>>> Being historian means being able to investigate and find the cause
>>>>>>> and effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you
>>>>>> would cite
>>>>>> the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It certainly does not support yours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shame that.
>>>>>
>>>>> ===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen
>>>>> the Pauline claims about "Christ".
>>>>
>>>> It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.
>>>> Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted
>>>> Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.
>>>
>>> ===>I don't "believe" it.
>>> I KNOW it.
>>>
>>>> Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always
>>>> based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.>> ===>FALSE ASSertiom you keep
>>>> repeating.
>
>
>>
>> Did not you say that Rabbi Akiva believe Bar-Khobba
>> was the Messiah/Christ.
>
>
> He goofed, and he paid the price.
>
>> We are reading the same source about Bar-Khobbah's
>> claim, so If you can't connect the DOTS
>> we can help you connect them. But before anything let me
>> ask you some:
>> Bar-Khobbah claimed that he was the Messiah. Where
>> do you think that he based his claim on?
>> Rabbi Akiva anointed Bar-Khobba thinking he was the
>> Messiah/Christ, though he changed his mind later,
>> where do you think he based his claim on?.
>>
>> Now as you see. Bar Khobba, Rabbi Akiva
>> Jesus, Paul, Peter, Appolos, Stephen, the author
>> of the Qur'an, The Ebionites
>> and thousand of Rabbis who later
>> converted into Islam all agree on one thing:
>> in Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses fortold the Messiah.
>> And this is what we have been saying.
>
>
>
> It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains lots
> of Prophets. End of story. Another example of Christians invoking the
> "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy using texts from Tanach. Now you
> simply drag in Muslims as well. Christians and Muslims carry no
> theological weight for the Jews.
>
>>
>> Reading historical material is useless If you can't connect
>> the dots
>
>
> And misinterpreting it is equally useless.
>
>>
>>
>>>> Given the fact Jesus TRIAL is mentioned in the Talmuld a book
>>>> by Jesus enemies.
>>>
>>> ===>Not the "Jesus" of the NT!
>>
>>
>>
>> How many Jesuses broke Moses Law on SABBATH day
>> when Pontius Pilatius was Governor of Judea?
>> How many Jesuses did Caiphas trialed, you son of a bitch?
>>
>>>> Given the fact that the Gospel writers could not write the Talmud
>>>
>>> ===>Irrelevant.
>>
>>
>> Irrelevant to you because it caught you off guard.
>> Talmud was not written by Luke or Mark or Matthew
>> yet it mentions a trial of a man named Jesus who was later
>> put to death
>>
>>
>>>> It is safe to believe that Jesus existed as a historical
>>>> figure
>>>
>>> ===>NON SEQUITUR, based on false premises.
>>
>>
>> What is my premises here. Please tell me If you have
>> any clue
>>
>>
>>
>>> and that Deuteronomy 18:14-19 in the words of
>>>
>>>> Rabbi Akiva is about the Messiah/Christ that Paul
>>>> did not invent.
>>>
>>> ===>FALSE ASSertion,
>>> FALSE CONCLUSION. -- L.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>
>> You are not ashamed of yourself yet?
>> A fictional character invented by Paul would not
>> be applied to Bar Khobba.

===>What kind of dishonest nitwit are you?
NO ONE appleis ANYTHING of Saul/Paul to Bar Kokhba.

Yet Bar Kobba and
>> his Rabbi thought he was the Messiah/Christ.

===>Why do you keep on LYING, falsely combining
"Messiah" with "Christ"?
How dishonest can you get?

therefore Paul did not invent him.

===>You're NUTS!
Saul/Paul invented the god CHRISTOS
for his new savior cult.
NOTHING to do with the Jewish "Messiah".

>> Rabbi Paul and Rabbi Akiva are reading the same
>> source, the Torah of Moses. AS SIMPLE AS THAT

===>For a simple-minded nitwit like YOU
it looks that "simple".

Oh, well.........

THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH,

so, don't even try it. -- L.
 
After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 18 February 2007 5:52 pm
Jeckyl perhaps from noone@nowhere.com wrote:

>> Did not Moses write the Torah, was that enough to count him
>> as a historical figure?
>
> I don't think people doubt the existence of Moses.
>


Yes, they indeed do. Modern archaeology discoveries discount the whole
of the Exodus episode. There was no evidence. And that can be summed
up in one word -- ****. Three million people would leave a lot of it
after rambling around the desert for 40 years. And no bones and no
pottery shards, and no garbage. Josiah's scribes made most of the
Torah up perhaps from oral legends and perhaps from whole cloth to lend
credence to their right to control and kill the inhabitants of the
territories they adopted after King Darius sent them back with his
blessings and musclemen.

--
Later,
Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
 
codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 18, 1:33 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>
>>It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains lots
>>of Prophets. End of story. Another example of Christians invoking the
>>"post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy using texts from Tanach. Now you
>>simply drag in Muslims as well. Christians and Muslims carry no
>>theological weight for the Jews.
>>
>
>
> See I did not drag the Muslims in this, Muslims were in
> this long ago. You did not know that? This is the reason
> we have telling you to investigate more bfore taking
> any position. Here is what dragged the Muslims.
> Yet I did not write it:
> Say people of the Book!
> commit no excesses in your religion:
> Nor say of God nothing but truth.
> MESSIAH/CHRIST, Jesus the Son of Mary
> was a Messenger of God, and His
> WORD, which He casted in Mary,
> and a Spirit proceeding from Him
> So believe in God and His Messengers,
> Say not Three: desist it will
> be better for you for God is one.
> Glory be to Him for far exalted
> is He above having a Son. To
> Him belong all things in heaven and on
> earth. And enough is
> God as a disposer of affairs. Qur'an 4:171
>
>
===>LIAR!
There's no "MESSIAH/CHRIST" in the Qur'an! -- L.
 

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