Right or Wrong?

[hugo]

You would not have those problems with child support if you had stayed with the mother of your children as God intended, TJ. You should have been responsible and respected your vows.

 

[timesjoke]

You would not have those problems with child support if you had stayed with the mother of your children as God intended, TJ. You should have been responsible and respected your vows.

I had no decision in that hugo, what would you have me do, kidnap her on the way out the door and strap her to the bed?

I respected my vows, I loved her completely, I never cheated, I never raised my hand in anger, I provided well for her and our children but she lost her faith. Why is it you seem so desperate to try and paint me a bad person in this hugo? You talk of God but there is no commandment from God to force a woman to stay if she has decided to go. Do you have any faith at all because you sound like an atheist trying to use religious beliefs against someone without the benefit of understanding what is in the Bible.


Deuteronomy 24:1-4
1When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

2And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

3And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

4Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.



This was from the time of Moses and Jesus later told us that even though divorce was permitted, that was not really the intention of God. God wants us to stay together. The biggest mistake most athiests and religious in appearance only people make is they forget this:



Mark 10:6-9 (King James Version)

6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.



Notice where it says what "God hath joined"? The bond of marriage requires God to be involved, without the shared of bond of faith there can be no marriage. My ex-wife lost her faith, turned away from God, turned away from me. She made her decisions in life and I had no way of stopping her, but it was clear our bond through God had been broken.


1 Corinthians 7:15 (King James Version)

But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.


Matthew 19:9 (King James Version)

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.





So tell me hugo, what was the "responsible" thing to do? You claim I was irresponsible and I would like you to spell it out for me how you see my actions as irresponsible?

Or is this just another flame attempt hugo? You angry again? If so maybe you should go see what God said about that.

 

[ren]

Of course I did trust the ex-wife and she emptied our bank accounts, ran off with someone else she met on the internet, got pregnant with him, he died in a car accident, then she tried to come back........To say I was devestated would be an understatement, and no I would not take her back, now that was based on a lack of trust.

And this is the crux of the problem. One or two women have colored your perception of the whole gender and everything we do. I've seen you talk about this many times. This is something that you have to let go of although it seems so deeply ingrained that I don't know if you'll ever do it. Everyone plays the fools at one time in their life. What we do with it is up to us. It's ok to feel ambivalent for awhile but after awhile you have to let it go.

 

[eddo]

No woman wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw off its own leg. ~ Frederica Mathewes-Green

2 things regarding this quote:

#1- if this woman feels that way about a pregnancy, then the kid is prolly better off dead than being raised by her. What a horrible outlook on the beginning of a life.

#2- an animal gets caught unsuspectingly in a trap. They are hidden. Pretty sure most women of child bearing age (at least in this country) have an understanding of how it is that one gets pregnant. Since over 98% of abortions are simply used as a post-conception birth control- maybe there are better alternatives than ending a life.

 

[timesjoke]

And this is the crux of the problem. One or two women have colored your perception of the whole gender and everything we do. I've seen you talk about this many times. This is something that you have to let go of although it seems so deeply ingrained that I don't know if you'll ever do it. Everyone plays the fools at one time in their life. What we do with it is up to us. It's ok to feel ambivalent for awhile but after awhile you have to let it go.

Just because I relate how it went that does not mean I am still upset over it or believing every woman in the world is the same way. I let go of the emotional connections to this memory years ago.

Let me ask you a question Ren.

If a woman says she is on the pill but does not tell the man she is also on rifampin and ends up getting pregnant, whos fault is it the baby was created?

And who pays for that mistake?



Ren your being blinded by your false assumptions of me, I have always been the guy who preaches responsibility above all other things. My possition on creating babies is no matter if it is a mistake or a deception, the man is still responsible for his seed and the life he helps to create. Nothing is 100% so even if the woman is being truthful, there is still the chance of pregnancy so there is no "OUT" for the man under any circumstance. The part your ignoring is I place a heavier burdon on the man even if he was misled because his trust of the lie was still his fault. The only reason I am heavy on women in a abortion discussion is because men don't kill babies, only mothers kill babies so at that point, men are not even involved. Once the situation has passed the point where the woman allows the child to live, then the man can begin his responsibility for his own part in the creation of the child.


Let me say this again, the men should be held accountable even if they were deceived, there is no excuse for making a baby and trying to escape taking responsibility for that child.



And who pays for that mistake?

The child does. Either the mother will kill the child or she will raise a child that was not wanted all because "BOTH" parties did not take reproduction risks seriously.


I take it seriously, and I took it seriously long before I ever met my ex-wife, lol.






eddo, take it a step further, the vast majority of abortions are to women who already have children and have never been married. There is no "I didn't know" excuse, they know exactly what causes pregnancy. I would have to go look it up again for the exact figure but somewhere around 80% of women who get abortions either used no birth control, or was inconsistent in using birth control when they had sex during the month they got pregnant. Why would so many people be having sex without using protection?

They don't care if they get pregnant? Is it something they just block out and refuse to accept as reality?

I know I am not a woman but even as a man I have always been extremely careful not to make a baby I did not want. I have three kids and I wanted every one of them and talked about creating a child with my partner each time. I once told my son that if your going to "play like an adult", then you have to behave like an adult and use adult protections.

 

[ren]

How do you feel about the man that pressures abortion to avoid responsibility? I would accept your stance except that I've seen too many posts demoralizing or degrading women. As far as truth telling pre sex it is something both sexes do and I'll give that at least a 50/50.

 

[RoyalOrleans]

Karma is a bitch of a mistress.

 

[snafu]

How do you feel about the man that pressures abortion to avoid responsibility? I would accept your stance except that I've seen too many posts demoralizing or degrading women. As far as truth telling pre sex it is something both sexes do and I'll give that at least a 50/50.

Yes I'll give you a 50/50. We had a thread in the past that presented the delima of a man spiking his girfriends drink with the day after abortion pill. Shouldn't it be his right to do so?

 

[eddo]

How do you feel about the man that pressures abortion to avoid responsibility?

He's scum.

 

[RoyalOrleans]

Any man who shrugs responsibility for his actions should be whipped in the square of his hometown.

 

[eddo]

Any man who shrugs responsibility for his actions should be whipped in the square of his hometown.

yeah, that too.

 

[wez]

[/i][/b]
2 things regarding this quote:

#1- if this woman feels that way about a pregnancy, then the kid is prolly better off dead than being raised by her. What a horrible outlook on the beginning of a life.

#2- an animal gets caught unsuspectingly in a trap. They are hidden. Pretty sure most women of child bearing age (at least in this country) have an understanding of how it is that one gets pregnant. Since over 98% of abortions are simply used as a post-conception birth control- maybe there are better alternatives than ending a life.

Well.. the point of the quote wasn't how the animal got in the trap.. or how a women got pregnant.. but rather how they may feel once there.

He's scum.

Yeah.. not too cool of a man to pressure a woman to have an abortion.. should be supportive of her choice either way..


What do you think of men who pressure women to give birth against their will?


Some nuts actually wanna make laws taking control of a woman's uterus.. Handmaidens Tale.. shudder

 

[emkay64]

How do you feel about the man that pressures abortion to avoid responsibility? I would accept your stance except that I've seen too many posts demoralizing or degrading women. As far as truth telling pre sex it is something both sexes do and I'll give that at least a 50/50.

Ren.....back away from this discussion. Trust me....we've all been through this. Don't bother. It'll just piss you off and it isn't worth it....reallllly...truly...back away...quickly. It is already gone away from the original discussion and we're now back to evils of women and their uteruses, and the timeless abortion debate.

 

[hugo]

Or is this just another flame attempt hugo? You angry again? If so maybe you should go see what God said about that.

Nothing worse then the misuse of bible quotes to defend divorce and fornication, TJ. I ain't angry, just trying to save you from hellfire.

 

[ren]

Ren.....back away from this discussion. Trust me....we've all been through this. Don't bother. It'll just piss you off and it isn't worth it....reallllly...truly...back away...quickly. It is already gone away from the original discussion and we're now back to evils of women and their uteruses, and the timeless abortion debate.

LOL em , duly noted. Me and my evil uterus are out.

 

[snafu]

Ren.....back away from this discussion. Trust me....we've all been through this. Don't bother. It'll just piss you off and it isn't worth it....reallllly...truly...back away...quickly. It is already gone away from the original discussion and we're now back to evils of women and their uteruses, and the timeless abortion debate.

LMAO .

 

[snafu]

It's the gods truth ren. Didn't we ban this topic anyway? .

 

[timesjoke]

How do you feel about the man that pressures abortion to avoid responsibility? I would accept your stance except that I've seen too many posts demoralizing or degrading women. As far as truth telling pre sex it is something both sexes do and I'll give that at least a 50/50.

So you dodge my questions but then ask more questions yourself?

Well I do not dodge questions, but you seem very selective to only try and paint me a certain way and ignore everything else I say.

The part you refuse to admit to is I am not only critical of women, I am critical of men too but you blind yourself to my many, many hard line possitions on men so you can pretend I am only attacking women from what you assume is hard feelings from my experiences with women in my past.......but your wrong.


In this question the man is a piece of garbage to try and avoid his responsibility, in pretty much every possition I take there is a heavy responsibility connection and I do not give breaks to one sex or the other, either your responsible or your not. I may seem a bit more hard on women on the abortion issue because only women kill their babies, once the woman has decided to allow the child to live I am severely supportive of even harsher laws to make men stand up to their responsibility.


Let me offer an example, once a man is behind on his child support by $5,000 I believe that should be mandatory work release jail time until he has cought up his back child support. This let's him still work but he can't go out and have fun if he is refusing to support his children.

Nothing worse then the misuse of bible quotes to defend divorce and fornication, TJ. I ain't angry, just trying to save you from hellfire.

Misuse?

Your the one who tried to hit me over the head with what you claimed was commanded by God and was proven wrong hugo, not me. You tried to bring faith into a discussion to flame me, nothing else. I am saved hugo, no hellfire for me, all men fall short, but you pointing your finger at me with false claims is not really helping your cause.


I am still waiting for you to tell me what I should have done?

Force her to stay? Tie her to the bed and make her be faithful? Force her to go to church and brainwash her to believe in a faith she had rejected?

Tell me hugo, what should I have done in this situation, your the one claiming I was irresponsible so it is up to you to explain what you feel the responsible thing was.

 

[timesjoke]

Looks like several posts were deleted, interesting how the attack on me from hugo is allowed to stay, lol.

Your bias is showing RO. I am sure you will delete this again but if your allowing other people to flame, I will reply not with returned flames but simply to defend myself and point out the flames for what they are.

Nothing worse then the misuse of bible quotes to defend divorce and fornication, TJ. I ain't angry, just trying to save you from hellfire.

Again, hugo your the one who claimed I was irresponsible and you took the direction of trying to use religion and the Bible as a weapon to flame me. All I did was teach you what is really in the Bible. It is not my fault you do not truly understand the teachings God has given us. Jesus is a savior, not you, hugo, lol.


So being as you are the one who claimed I was irresponsible for letting my wife decide to leave and be unfaithful back your words up, explain what you feel the responsible thing would have been to do?


Should I have restrained her, tie her to the bed and refuse to let her leave? Should I have tried to brainwash her to follow a faith she had turned her back on? Exactly what should i have done hugo?

 

[timesjoke]

Another one, why it is only all of my posts are deleted RO? It was Ren and Hugo who took to flames on me and I replied to but you delete even my first post that was 100% on topic?

What are you doing?

And this is the crux of the problem. One or two women have colored your perception of the whole gender and everything we do. I've seen you talk about this many times. This is something that you have to let go of although it seems so deeply ingrained that I don't know if you'll ever do it. Everyone plays the fools at one time in their life. What we do with it is up to us. It's ok to feel ambivalent for awhile but after awhile you have to let it go.

Being as RO is on a delete what Times says move I can only say that again I am not only critical of women, your assertion that I am harsher on women is false.


I place responsibility where it belongs, responsibility does not see gender, it is what it is. I understand the decisions are complex but just because I hold all people responsible for their actions, that does not mean I am against women in any way. I love women, I cherish all the women in my life and I see women as equals, and as being equal I can honestly apply responsibility to them just as strictly as I do all men.