The Mormon Church and Black People...

In article
<ad8c6f91-d67e-4947-923a-aee32605f4dc@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
"\"john p\"" <john.phile@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 30, 6:36 am, 2...@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:
> > In article <uxMHj.1724$Eq.1352@trnddc05>, "Diana" <diana...@noyoudont.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > ".R. L. Measures" <2...@vc.net> wrote in message
> > >news:2-2903082007020001@10.0.1.198...
> > > > In article <HgCHj.247$zb3.77@trnddc01>, "Diana" <diana...@noyoudont.com>
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > >> ".R. L. Measures" <2...@vc.net> wrote in message
> > > >>news:2-2903081415050001@10.0.1.198...
> > > >> <snip to here>
> >
> > > >> >> And the IRS hasn't enforced either one on churches.
> >
> > > >> > because the LdS church backed down in the Summer of 1978 by
> > > >> > claiming
> > > >> > that "God" had called off the supposed curse of dark skin.
> >
> > > >> What were they supposed to have been backing down FROM, Rich?
> >
> > > > from prohibiting persons with African blood from holding the
LdS high
> > > > priesthood.
> >
> > > (grin) twisty, Rich. And here I thought you were claiming that the church
> > > was backing down from the IRS threat.
> >
> > Not just the $6-billion tax exemption, the planned boycott of BYU's
> > football team. Another factor was bad press.
> >
> >
> >
> > > >> >> >> It can, if the church has applied for one in the first place,
> > > >> >> >> revoke a
> > > >> >> > tax exemption
> > > >> >> >> letter. However, that revocation means nothing; the church still
> > > >> >> >> doesn't
> > > >> >> >> have to pay taxes, and the donors to it may still declare their
> > > >> >> >> contributions on their income tax forms.
> >
> > > >> >> > Undiluted fiction.
> >
> > > >> >> Absolute fact, Rich. But...feel free to show me where the IRS has
> > > >> >> revoked
> > > >> >> the non-profit status of a church so that it has actually
payed income
> > > >> >> taxes,
> >
> > > >> > It didn't happen because "prophet" Woodruff supposedly got
a timely
> > > >> > revlation.
> >
> > Correction: It was LdS "prophet/seer/revelator" Spencer Kimball who
> > supposedly got a divine revelation that God's curse of dark skin against
> > the decendants of Cain had been called off -- not "prophet/seer/revelator"
> > Wilford Woodruff (March 1, 1807 - September 2, 1898).
> >
> > end...... ....
>
> Money is a powerful motivator.

In the Ld$ church, especially. Cheers J.P.

--
R.L. Measures. 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
 
john.phile@gmail.com ("john p") wrote:
> netzach@GeoCities.com (Guy R. Briggs) wrote:
>> 2@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:
>>> netzach@GeoCities.com wrote:
>>>> 2@vc.net wrote:
>>>>> netzach@GeoCities.com wrote:
>>>>>> 2@vc.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>>>> The reality is that the LdS church is proud of its
>>>>>>> $30-billion portfolio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alleged $30-billion portfolio. So if I'm understanding you
>>>>>> correctly, the Church is sitting on a $30-billion
>>>>>> portfolio - but was worried enough about loss of revenue
>>>>>> from disgruntled blacks boycotting the football team that
>>>>>> it changed its doctrine.
>>>>>
>>>>> More correctly, the prophet/seer/revelator could see the
>>>>> handwriting on the wall, ...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> -- Daniel 5:25-31
>>>>
>>>> The source of the "handwriting on the wall" expression.
>>>> Presented as a public service.
>>>
>>> Much adoo about nothing.
>>
>> I'm merely noting the irony of a non-believer, using an
>> expression based upon a prophet (Daniel) receiving
>> revelation, to pooh-pooh the idea of a prophet (Kimball)
>> receiving revelation.
>
> Good job.
>
Thanx.

>>>>>
>>>>> ... so he said he got a revelation from God to the effect
>>>>> that He had decided to remove his curse of dark skin. The
>>>>> laugher is that nobody's skin color changed.
>>>>
>>>> What makes you think any color was supposed to change?
>>>
>>> simple logic
>>
>> You wouldn't recognize logic if it came up and introduced
>> itself.
>
> At least he doesn't believe in fairies and their gold plates.
>
Nor do we.

>>>>
>>>> Are you going to tell me that Prophet Woodruff (hah!) said
>>>> that sub-Saharan blacks were supposed to change color?
>>>>
>>>> Consider this a call for references.
>>>
>>> consider this a chortle.
>>
>> Translation: Rich cannot produce such a reference.
>
> He didn't need to--his point was clear.
>
This is alt.religion.mormon - John, and we should, at least, be
discussing Mormon doctrine. Not some red herring dragged across the
trail by somebody who has only "it makes the Church look bad" as his
sole standard of truth. Regardless of whether it's factual or logical.

>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I wrote ... this is your brain on anti-Mormonism.
>>>>
>>>> And I still want to know what you're smoking this evening.
>>>
>>> I tried smoking in the 8th grade. It reminded me of
>>> being on the wrong side of a campfire in Boy Scouts.
>>
>> Not smoking, eh? In that case, what drug were you
>> ingesting last evening? You're generally a little sharper
>> than this. Not much ... but a little.
>
> I think he is having fun.
>
Undoubtedly. But that's the thing about drugs: what may seem
uproariously funny (while under the influence) is generally anything but
when sober.


bestRegards, Guy.
 
In article <OuQHj.5637$A87.959@trnddc06>, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:

> ".R. L. Measures" <2@vc.net> wrote in message
> news:2-3003080736570001@10.0.1.198...
> > In article <uxMHj.1724$Eq.1352@trnddc05>, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> ".R. L. Measures" <2@vc.net> wrote in message
> >> news:2-2903082007020001@10.0.1.198...
> >> > In article <HgCHj.247$zb3.77@trnddc01>, "Diana"
> >> > <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> ".R. L. Measures" <2@vc.net> wrote in message
> >> >> news:2-2903081415050001@10.0.1.198...
> >> >> <snip to here>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> And the IRS hasn't enforced either one on churches.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > because the LdS church backed down in the Summer of 1978 by
> >> >> > claiming
> >> >> > that "God" had called off the supposed curse of dark skin.
> >> >>
> >> >> What were they supposed to have been backing down FROM, Rich?
> >> >
> >> > from prohibiting persons with African blood from holding the LdS
> >> > high
> >> > priesthood.
> >> >>
> >>
> >> (grin) twisty, Rich. And here I thought you were claiming that the church
> >> was backing down from the IRS threat.
> >>
> >
> > Not just the $6-billion tax exemption, the planned boycott of BYU's
> > football team. Another factor was bad press.
>
> Rich.
> The church has stood up to being shot at, being thrown out of states and the
> nation, having an ARMY sent after it---and you think we were going to be
> afraid of 'bad press?'

The prospect of press coverage of victim testimony during well over
1000 individual trials was the reason why another God's one true decided
to pay $2,000,000,000 to its butt-rammed altar-boys.
>
> Not to mention that the tax exemption, however large it might have been, was
> in no danger--a fact that I have proven and you have ignored.

I was not convinced that any church can bar blacks and retain its tax
exemption.
>
> Ad to a boycott of BYU's football team---the church has stood up to being
> shot at, etc., and you think we were going to be afraid of a FOOTBALL
> BOYCOTT???

BYU has never faced a team whose players walked off.
>
>
> >> >> >> >> It can, if the church has applied for one in the first place,
> >> >> >> >> revoke a
> >> >> >> > tax exemption
> >> >> >> >> letter. However, that revocation means nothing; the church still
> >> >> >> >> doesn't
> >> >> >> >> have to pay taxes, and the donors to it may still declare their
> >> >> >> >> contributions on their income tax forms.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Undiluted fiction.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Absolute fact, Rich. But...feel free to show me where the IRS has
> >> >> >> revoked
> >> >> >> the non-profit status of a church so that it has actually payed
> >> >> >> income
> >> >> >> taxes,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It didn't happen because "prophet" Woodruff supposedly got a
> >> >> > timely
> >> >> > revlation.
> >> >>
> >
> > Correction: It was LdS "prophet/seer/revelator" Spencer Kimball who
> > supposedly got a divine revelation that God's curse of dark skin against
> > the decendants of Cain had been called off -- not "prophet/seer/revelator"
> > Wilford Woodruff (March 1, 1807
 
On Mar 30, 2:49 am, 2...@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:

>
> John B____? You seem to be proud to be a LdSaint, so why do you conceal
> your surname?
>

To avoid being confused with any other John on the list. How come you
asked me that question, but you don't ask johnp?

JohnB
 
On Mar 30, 3:07 am, 2...@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:

> Correction: "Prophet" Spencer Kimball supposedly got the revelation
> shortly before BYU's 1978-1979 football season started.
>

So what good did that do for those seasons. It takes time to recruit
players, and there were black players on the team before the
revelation as given anyway.

This dog just doesn't hunt RL. :)
 
On Mar 30, 7:36 am, 2...@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:

>
> Correction: It was LdS "prophet/seer/revelator" Spencer Kimball who
> supposedly got a divine revelation that God's curse of dark skin against
> the decendants of Cain had been called off -- not "prophet/seer/revelator"
> Wilford Woodruff (March 1, 1807 - September 2, 1898).


There is no mention of any curse being lifted, or any skin colors
being changed, in the revelation given to President Kimball. Why do
you keep repeating this lie?

Its not in there, you can't find it, so don't keep saying it like its
a fact. THere is nothing in that revelation about a curse being taken
off, or implying that anyone's skin was going to change color.


JohnB
 
John wrote:
> On Mar 30, 7:36 am, 2...@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:
>
>> Correction: It was LdS "prophet/seer/revelator" Spencer Kimball who
>> supposedly got a divine revelation that God's curse of dark skin against
>> the decendants of Cain had been called off -- not "prophet/seer/revelator"
>> Wilford Woodruff (March 1, 1807 - September 2, 1898).
>
>
> There is no mention of any curse being lifted, or any skin colors
> being changed, in the revelation given to President Kimball. Why do
> you keep repeating this lie?
>
> Its not in there, you can't find it, so don't keep saying it like its
> a fact. THere is nothing in that revelation about a curse being taken
> off, or implying that anyone's skin was going to change color.
>
>
> JohnB


The fact remains that the LDS Church, God's 'one and only true
church', implemented and institutionalized racist policies against black
people for over 150 years.

In my eyes there's nothing 'true' or 'godly' about racism. The fact that
other people of that era were racists as well is no excuse. It only
further shows that the LDS Church, weird as it is and was, was just as
evil as other racists of the time.
 
You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un-
comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly
deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is
generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious
crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any
one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been
killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human
beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is
the flat nose and black skin.

~~ Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:290-291 (October 9, 1859)


The fact remains that the LDS [Mormon] Church, God's 'one and only
true church', implemented and institutionalized racist policies
against black people for over 150 years up until 1978.

In my eyes there's nothing 'true' or 'godly' about racism. The fact that
other people of that era were racists as well is no excuse. It only
further shows that the LDS Church, weird as it is and was, was just as
evil as other racist institutions of the time.



Guy R. Briggs wrote:
> 2@vc.net (
 
In article
<75661ba8-ba59-4888-bb84-b1e0e4b802f7@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, John
<ewsnet@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 30, 2:49 am, 2...@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:
>
> >
> > John B____? You seem to be proud to be a LdSaint, so why do you conceal
> > your surname?
> >
>
> To avoid being confused with any other John on the list.

Using your surname would do this.

>How come you
> asked me that question, but you don't ask johnp?

Because he is not proud to be a LdSaint.
>
> JohnB

--
R.L. Measures. 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
 
In article
<1f97f602-86ed-4c0c-b10c-bbadc129feff@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, John
<ewsnet@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 30, 3:07 am, 2...@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:
>
> > Correction: "Prophet" Spencer Kimball supposedly got the revelation
> > shortly before BYU's 1978-1979 football season started.
> >
>
> So what good did that do for those seasons. It takes time to recruit
> players, and there were black players on the team before the
> revelation as given anyway.
>
> This dog just doesn't hunt RL. :)

The boycott was not being planned by BYU's black players. the planners
were black players on other teams. .

--
R.L. Measures. 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
 
In article
<e74aa527-6c4f-4e0e-8e75-7a752fcd0e88@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, John
<ewsnet@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 30, 7:36 am, 2...@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:
>
> >
> > Correction: It was LdS "prophet/seer/revelator" Spencer Kimball who
> > supposedly got a divine revelation that God's curse of dark skin against
> > the decendants of Cain had been called off -- not "prophet/seer/revelator"
> > Wilford Woodruff (March 1, 1807 - September 2, 1898).
>
>
> There is no mention of any curse being lifted, or any skin colors
> being changed, in the revelation given to President Kimball. Why do
> you keep repeating this lie?

it was de facto lifted because after Kimball's revelation blacks can
hold the high LdS priesthood.
>
> Its not in there, you can't find it, so don't keep saying it like its
> a fact. THere is nothing in that revelation about a curse being taken
> off, or implying that anyone's skin was going to change color.
>
So the Curse of Cain is still on?
>
> JohnB

--
R.L. Measures. 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
 
In article <6MmdnT4U0Oz4b3LanZ2dnUVZ_oCvnZ2d@giganews.com>, John Manning
<jrobertm@terra.com.br> wrote:

> John wrote:
> > On Mar 30, 7:36 am, 2...@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:
> >
> >> Correction: It was LdS "prophet/seer/revelator" Spencer Kimball who
> >> supposedly got a divine revelation that God's curse of dark skin against
> >> the decendants of Cain had been called off -- not "prophet/seer/revelator"
> >> Wilford Woodruff (March 1, 1807 - September 2, 1898).
> >
> >
> > There is no mention of any curse being lifted, or any skin colors
> > being changed, in the revelation given to President Kimball. Why do
> > you keep repeating this lie?
> >
> > Its not in there, you can't find it, so don't keep saying it like its
> > a fact. THere is nothing in that revelation about a curse being taken
> > off, or implying that anyone's skin was going to change color.
> >
> >
> > JohnB
>
>
> The fact remains that the LDS Church, God's 'one and only true
> church', implemented and institutionalized racist policies against black
> people for over 150 years.
>
> In my eyes there's nothing 'true' or 'godly' about racism. The fact that
> other people of that era were racists as well is no excuse. It only
> further shows that the LDS Church, weird as it is and was, was just as
> evil as other racists of the time.
 
On Mar 30, 1:39 pm, 2...@vc.net ( R. L. Measures) wrote:
> In article

>
> > There is no mention of any curse being lifted, or any skin colors
> > being changed, in the revelation given to President Kimball. Why do
> > you keep repeating this lie?
>
> it was de facto lifted because after Kimball's revelation blacks can
> hold the high LdS priesthood.

The revelation never says anything specific about blacks.
>
> > Its not in there, you can't find it, so don't keep saying it like its
> > a fact. THere is nothing in that revelation about a curse being taken
> > off, or implying that anyone's skin was going to change color.
>
> So the Curse of Cain is still on?

If it makes you happy, and gives you reason to live, and despise the
church, so be it. The problem is not mine to deal with. As far as I
know, all worthy males are entitled to hold the Priesthood.

Come join us here in the present. The past, is just that, and I can't
do anything about it, neither can you. Maybe you can organize some
sort of attack on the Mainstream Christian churches, since the Lord
withheld His priesthood from a number of groups of people throughout
history. The reasons are His.

JohnB
 
".R. L. Measures" <2@vc.net> wrote in message
news:2-3003081147460001@10.0.1.198...
> In article <OuQHj.5637$A87.959@trnddc06>, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ".R. L. Measures" <2@vc.net> wrote in message
>> news:2-3003080736570001@10.0.1.198...
>> > In article <uxMHj.1724$Eq.1352@trnddc05>, "Diana"
>> > <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> ".R. L. Measures" <2@vc.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:2-2903082007020001@10.0.1.198...
>> >> > In article <HgCHj.247$zb3.77@trnddc01>, "Diana"
>> >> > <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> ".R. L. Measures" <2@vc.net> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:2-2903081415050001@10.0.1.198...
>> >> >> <snip to here>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> And the IRS hasn't enforced either one on churches.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > because the LdS church backed down in the Summer of 1978 by
>> >> >> > claiming
>> >> >> > that "God" had called off the supposed curse of dark skin.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What were they supposed to have been backing down FROM, Rich?
>> >> >
>> >> > from prohibiting persons with African blood from holding the LdS
>> >> > high
>> >> > priesthood.
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >> (grin) twisty, Rich. And here I thought you were claiming that the
>> >> church
>> >> was backing down from the IRS threat.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Not just the $6-billion tax exemption, the planned boycott of BYU's
>> > football team. Another factor was bad press.
>>
>> Rich.
>> The church has stood up to being shot at, being thrown out of states and
>> the
>> nation, having an ARMY sent after it---and you think we were going to be
>> afraid of 'bad press?'
>
> The prospect of press coverage of victim testimony during well over
> 1000 individual trials was the reason why another God's one true decided
> to pay $2,000,000,000 to its butt-rammed altar-boys.

Rich, THAT was the result of some very real lawsuits. Something the LDS
church wasn't ever threatened with. Not to mention that the situations
weren't even remotely similar.
>>
>> Not to mention that the tax exemption, however large it might have been,
>> was
>> in no danger--a fact that I have proven and you have ignored.
>
> I was not convinced that any church can bar blacks and retain its tax
> exemption.

I don't care whether YOU were convinced. The Supreme Court and the IRS was.
Besides which, Rich, we didn't 'bar blacks' from the church, from
membership, or from any ultimate blessings. Certain men were restricted from
holding the priesthood, something that every church of every denomination
has the absolute right to do--to choose who will be members of their
priesthood.

>> Ad to a boycott of BYU's football team---the church has stood up to being
>> shot at, etc., and you think we were going to be afraid of a FOOTBALL
>> BOYCOTT???
>
> BYU has never faced a team whose players walked off.

No, they never did. And they never would have, either.

>> >> >> >> >> It can, if the church has applied for one in the first place,
>> >> >> >> >> revoke a
>> >> >> >> > tax exemption
>> >> >> >> >> letter. However, that revocation means nothing; the church
>> >> >> >> >> still
>> >> >> >> >> doesn't
>> >> >> >> >> have to pay taxes, and the donors to it may still declare
>> >> >> >> >> their
>> >> >> >> >> contributions on their income tax forms.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Undiluted fiction.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Absolute fact, Rich. But...feel free to show me where the IRS
>> >> >> >> has
>> >> >> >> revoked
>> >> >> >> the non-profit status of a church so that it has actually payed
>> >> >> >> income
>> >> >> >> taxes,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > It didn't happen because "prophet" Woodruff supposedly got a
>> >> >> > timely
>> >> >> > revlation.
>> >> >>
>> >
>> > Correction: It was LdS "prophet/seer/revelator" Spencer Kimball
>> > who
>> > supposedly got a divine revelation that God's curse of dark skin
>> > against
>> > the decendants of Cain had been called off -- not
>> > "prophet/seer/revelator"
>> > Wilford Woodruff (March 1, 1807
 
".R. L. Measures" <2@vc.net> wrote in message
news:2-3003081353480001@10.0.1.198...
> In article <6MmdnT4U0Oz4b3LanZ2dnUVZ_oCvnZ2d@giganews.com>, John Manning
> <jrobertm@terra.com.br> wrote:
<snip to>
>>
>> In my eyes there's nothing 'true' or 'godly' about racism. The fact that
>> other people of that era were racists as well is no excuse. It only
>> further shows that the LDS Church, weird as it is and was, was just as
>> evil as other racists of the time.
>
Rich, since you agreed with this, would you kindly tell me why you aren't
over on, say...alt.religion.christian.baptist yelling at THEM? I mean,
Babtists used to own slaves and were far more racist in the south than
Mormons ever were. Yet I think that one could say that most of them have
changed--and even they will admit that they did so because of far more
pressure, political and moral, than has ever been leveled at the LDS church.

Yet---all is praise for everybody who has changed their policies. All hail
the racists who no longer are! How wonderful! Repentance is glorious,
Forgiveness is universal...

Unless of course one is a Mormon. Then of course no forgiveness is possible,
and no matter what he or she does, it's evil. Should they extend the
priesthood to all male members? Why, THEY CHANGED BECAUSE OF PRESSURE! and
are evil. Should they NOT do so? WHY, the evil RACISTS!

Rich?

Go get a life and find another hobby.
 

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