Would you do it?

[mercury]

no, I get where you're coming from. If this was something that was discussed prior to taking vows and everyone was agreeable to the situation, then where's the problem? I just couldn't imagine after 20+ years this suddenly being a great idea.

I'm really not sure if it would eliminate any insecurities, though... Doubt? yes... but insecurities? Wouldn't you still wonder how you compared, or if maybe he was thinking about that chick from his last vacation or maybe even trying to track her down? How would you know that he wasn't seeing her, or having contact with her regularly, even though it's against the rules?

A cheater is going to cheat... even if allowed to wander.

 

[emkay64]

no, I get where you're coming from. If this was someting that was discussed prior to taking vows and eveyone was agreeable to the situation, then where's the problem? I just couldn't imagine after 20+ years this suddenly being a great idea.

I'm really not sure if it would eliminate any insecurities, though... Doubt? yes... but insecurities? Wouldn't you still wonder how you compared, or if maybe he was thinking about that chick from his last vacation or maybe even trying to track her down? How would you know that he wasn't seeing her, or having contacat with her regularly, even though it's against the rules?

A cheater is going to cheat... even if allowed to wander.

Yah...and some people are nutchos!! You could end up with pics of your hubby getting a blow job all over facebook. Stoopid facebook! I bet lots would try to track people down...and that damn thing makes it too easy!

 

[Ahhlee]

no, I get where you're coming from. If this was something that was discussed prior to taking vows and everyone was agreeable to the situation, then where's the problem? I just couldn't imagine after 20+ years this suddenly being a great idea.

I'm really not sure if it would eliminate any insecurities, though... Doubt? yes... but insecurities? Wouldn't you still wonder how you compared, or if maybe he was thinking about that chick from his last vacation or maybe even trying to track her down? How would you know that he wasn't seeing her, or having contact with her regularly, even though it's against the rules?

A cheater is going to cheat... even if allowed to wander.

Good points, merc.

If I'm going to worry about those things, then I shouldn't consider this type of an arrangement as an option. I can't stress enough that this would require a VERY special person who I trust implicitly to make this work. I guess because I can have sex with someone without feeling anything for them, it's something I'd be interested in exploring.

But look....even the men here are against it! My odds of finding someone who would be on board with such a situation and trust me enough to follow the established rules? Miniscule at best.

Like I said before....no one gets me. (though em is damn close..lol.)

Yah...and some people are nutchos!! You could end up with pics of your hubby getting a blow job all over facebook. Stoopid facebook! I bet lots would try to track people down...and that damn thing makes it too easy!

That's definitely a risk, I agree! Hopefully his "O" face isn't abhorrent.

 

[mercury]

well there ya go... you'd have to trust him. I think you can forget about this option

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Good points, merc.

If I'm going to worry about those things, then I shouldn't consider this type of an arrangement as an option. I can't stress enough that this would require a VERY special person who I trust implicitly to make this work. I guess because I can have sex with someone without feeling anything for them, it's something I'd be interested in exploring.

But look....even the men here are against it! My odds of finding someone who would be on board with such a situation and trust me enough to follow the established rules? Miniscule at best.

Like I said before....no one gets me. (though em is damn close..lol.)



That's definitely a risk, I agree! Hopefully his "O" face isn't abhorrent.

I think I got you on this one... I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. I think it would be interesting...

I was thinking more like Jenn though... I think her idea would work better for me... but you never know.

well there ya go... you'd have to trust him. I think you can forget about this option

lol... that's not nice. not all guys are untrustworthy...

 

[wez]

Say your significant other proposed the following to you:

A one week vacation apart, once a year, when you can both sleep with anybody you want to. The rules are...

1) You MUST use condoms. No exceptions.

2) You are not allowed to stay in contact with anyone you sleep with. No exchanging names, phone numbers, emails...anything.

3) No contacting one another during that week, unless it is a dire emergency.

4) You never discuss any details of your week with one another. Ever.


Would you do it? Would you be ok with it if they did it? How would your mate react if you suggested such an arrangement?

I wouldn't wanna be in any part of that equation.. shudders at the thought.. rather be alone

 

[wez]

Meaningless sex = masturbation.. I can do that by myself.. and often do..

 

[mercury]

That wasn't a jab at the trustworthiness of guys, but at Ali's lack of trust in relationships.

 

[emkay64]

Okay...This is totally meant to be funny so please..no one get offended okey doke?

So....when do you broach this most intimate of topics?

Is it when you're dating...and you casually say "monogamy is NOT for me and NEVER will be?

or

Is it during the vows and the minister says "Do you forsake all others"....and you say "ehhhhh...no....that isn't going to work for me".

or

Is it a few years down the road and it's magical meatloaf night...and you look across the table at your honey and hand her a vacation pamphlet and say "hey hon...you're gonna love this......how bout separate vacations and I can bang whoever I want...oh yah and you can too. Wait it gets better...we have some rules!!"

or

What if the husband or wife opts to get it on in gay fashion? Is that okay?

and

Do you casually watch a movie about swingers and open relationships and say "Hey...what do you think? I always thought your best friend Marsha would be good in the sack"

and finally.....

What if YOU think everything is great, and your significant other comes up with the idea? What if it wasn't you who broached it first? Would you be suspicious? Just wondering cause this isn't the kinda thing you can just throw out there...and when the other person is sitting there with a look of horror on their face...say "Hey never mind...it was just an idea".

So....what are your best scenarios to bring it up?

 

[Hack]

Okay...This is totally meant to be funny so please..no one get offended okey doke?

So....when do you broach this most intimate of topics?

Is it when you're dating...and you casually say "monogamy is NOT for me and NEVER will be?

or

Is it during the vows and the minister says "Do you forsake all others"....and you say "ehhhhh...no....that isn't going to work for me".

or

Is it a few years down the road and it's magical meatloaf night...and you look across the table at your honey and hand her a vacation pamphlet and say "hey hon...you're gonna love this......how bout separate vacations and I can bang whoever I want...oh yah and you can too. Wait it gets better...we have some rules!!"

or

Do you casually watch a movie about swingers and open relationships and say "Hey...what do you think? I always thought your best friend Marsha would be good in the sack"

and finally.....

What if YOU think everything is great, and your significant other comes up with the idea? What if it wasn't you who broached it first? Would you be suspicious? Just wondering cause this isn't the kinda thing you can just throw out there...and when the other person is sitting there with a look of horror on their face...say "Hey never mind...it was just an idea".

So....what are your best scenarios to bring it up?

and then you find out he went on an all MALE cruise...

 

[Ahhlee]

Ok, I'm going to agree with you folks that if a couple was enjoying a traditional marriage and all of the sudden one spouse brought up this arrangement, it would most likely be a good reason to hit the marital panic button. Totally understandable!

Speaking for myself, with the right man, this is something I would bring up early on in the relationship just to see where he stands on the subject. And if I really, really liked him, I wouldn't necessarily dump him if he vehemently objected.

But again, the odds of me finding someone:

A) compatible with me

B) willing to put up with my numerous and varied idiosyncrasies

C) as in to bad 70's porn as I am

D) who can sing a Johnny Horton tune in its entirety

E) who loves to smooch on a cold, rainy day

F) I'm still thinking about smooching

G) who has never killed, wanted to kill, pretended to kill or plotted to kill a polar bear

H) who thinks my tractor's sexy

I) who would humor me and let me serve lefse at Thanksgiving dinner...and eat it!

J) who wouldn't interrupt me when I'm watching "Family Guy" or "Ghost Adventures"

K) who would love me even when my Vikings beat his team out in the play-offs

L) who would take out the garbage

M) who would let me sleep on the right side of the bed

N) who thinks plaid Vikings pajama pants are cute, as well as nerdy glasses

O) that isn't a serial killer

P) who knows my favorite color, flower, holiday, seaon and my eye color

Q) who won't yell at me if I get in a fender bender after buying a new pair of shoes

R) who will take me on a corn field maze date extraordinaire!

S) who is as good at cuddling nude in a sleeping bag with me as emkay is

T) who not only understands my love for black Sharpies, but nurtures that love as well

U) who doesn't think I'm a complete geek for watching Adult Swim

V) who would teach me how to shoot a gun

W) who would make mercury stop picking on me!!!!

X) that actually read through this entire list

Y) Where was I going with this?

Z) Oh yeah....who would be open to a "don't ask, don't tell" week vacation.

Are slim to none.

 

[snafu]

Ok, I'm going to agree with you folks that if a couple was enjoying a traditional marriage and all of the sudden one spouse brought up this arrangement, it would most likely be a good reason to hit the marital panic button. Totally understandable!

Speaking for myself, with the right man, this is something I would bring up early on in the relationship just to see where he stands on the subject. And if I really, really liked him, I wouldn't necessarily dump him if he vehemently objected.

But again, the odds of me finding someone:

A) compatible with me

B) willing to put up with my numerous and varied idiosyncrasies

C) as in to bad 70's porn as I am

D) who can sing a Johnny Horton tune in its entirety

E) who loves to smooch on a cold, rainy day

F) I'm still thinking about smooching

G) who has never killed, wanted to kill, pretended to kill or plotted to kill a polar bear
H) who thinks my tractor's sexy

I) who would humor me and let me serve lefse at Thanksgiving dinner...and eat it!

J) who wouldn't interrupt me when I'm watching "Family Guy" or "Ghost Adventures"

K) who would love me even when my Vikings beat his team out in the play-offs

L) who would take out the garbage

M) who would let me sleep on the right side of the bed

N) who thinks plaid Vikings pajama pants are cute, as well as nerdy glasses

O) that isn't a serial killer

P) who knows my favorite color, flower, holiday, seaon and my eye color

Q) who won't yell at me if I get in a fender bender after buying a new pair of shoes

R) who will take me on a corn field maze date extraordinaire!

S) who is as good at cuddling nude in a sleeping bag with me as emkay is
T) who not only understands my love for black Sharpies, but nurtures that love as well

U) who doesn't think I'm a complete geek for watching Adult Swim

V) who would teach me how to shoot a gun

W) who would make mercury stop picking on me!!!!

X) that actually read through this entire list

Y) Where was I going with this?

Z) Oh yeah....who would be open to a "don't ask, don't tell" week vacation.

Are slim to none.

Are your trying to single me out? Because I love polar bears and snuggling with emkay in a sleeping blanket so you must be talking about me.
The rest is triva that I can live with.

 

[timesjoke]

So was I. I think saying this lifestyle is "unhealthy" is an unfair statement. Some people are more open to alternative possibilities than simply accepting what is fed to us as "traditionally acceptable". I don't think someone who is willing to explore these options should be labeled unhealthy if all parties involved are grown, consenting adults.

I am offering my opinion, I thought you were asking for each of us to offer our opinions on this idea and how people will react? In my opinion this is an unhealthy idea on a mental level because we are humans, not computers where you set the varible and it will always be exactly the same.

People change, hell I have not met a woman yet who was the same every day on all things, just because two people may agree to this in the beginning, that is not a gurantee they will find this acceptable forever and the one who changes their mind first will be facing the other with "Well you agreed before we started this, why are you changing your mind now?".

That's your definition of love. That doesn't make it the accepted standard for everyone. My idea of love is different.

Your entitled to your idea of love, again I am offering my view of love from my life. No insult but you have mentioned having many problems in that department so maybe you have never known the kind of deep love I feel? There are certainly different "levels" (whatever you want to call it) of love and the love I feel for Tami for example is something where I could never share myself with anyone else, and I certainly do not want her sharing herself with anyone else......

To me sex is like a secret, the more people you share it with, the more worthless it becomes.

If she allows you that freedom, perhaps she loves you so much that she accepts that you are a human being with normal desires and urges. Perhaps that's her way of saying, "You know...I appreciate all that you do for me and I trust you never to leave me or what we have together, therefore I am comfortable with you having an allotted time of sexual freedom that doesn't have to involve me."

Let me just say that I hope my significant other sees me as something more than a dog in heat.

To be that selfless requires a great deal of love, so to claim that two people who agree to this arrangement don't really love one another is simply your opinion. Others might say that's a very loving relationship.

Again, you were asking for our opinions and in my opinion based on my understanding of the kind of deep and exclusive love I have for Tami there is no possible way I could consider recreational sex with strangers as part of our relationship.

It's a lot of pressure to be someone else's "everything".

The best things in life are not easy.

Perhaps that's why our current divorce rate is so high....and growing?

Or maybe people are mistaking lust for love? Maybe basing a relationship on sex instead of love has it's long term problems?

Every day is a risk. Driving my car is a risk. Talking on my cell phone is a risk. Walking outside to get the mail is a risk. As long as both partners understand there are risks, what they entail, and are prepared to take responsibility for any potential problems that may arise.....let it be.

Well, certainly everything can be reduced to possible harm but my point is why go out of your way to do something that has so many possibilities of failure? You know, play the odds a little? My point about breaking condoms and other diseases condoms cannot prevent is why take a chance of bringing home a disease to someone you love?

Is a moment of "free sex" with a stranger really worth taking a disease home to your loved ones?

Em, I have been cheated on so many times it's ridiculous. I just don't believe the odds of finding a faithful partner are very good, and since I'm the experimental type I think this is something that could work well for me! I figure it's going to happen anyway, why not circumvent the hurt that inevitably results from being betrayed and find a solution that both parties can agree on? Plus...frankly....I like to fuk.

I know, I am not EM but I had to comment:

I think your selling yourself too short Ali. Me and you have had a lot of issues but I refuse to believe you cannot find someone who can be loyal to you. Maybe you need to look in different places? Give "not looking" a chance, when I met Tami I had no intention of ever being in a serious relationship again and sex between us did not happen for a very long time.


Anything worth having is worth the wait. Anything you get for free is worth the price.

 

[emkay64]

Oh Ali girl.....

Your list is adorable, and I can foresee many men that wouldn't think that's difficult to manage and would find it endearing and exciting.

As for being cheated on previously and this being a hope of circumnavigating the inevitable...that makes me sad. You are much more valuable than you realize. I would hope that this sort of lifestyle isn't something you would choose or settle for because of a fear of being hurt. I think I know you well enough...that this may serve you well in the short term...but you're much more traditional than you realize.

You want a good man, you just don't believe there are any out there. There are.

Don't buy the pig when all you need is a little sausage So crude...but so true teehee.

BTW...no one is as good in a sleeping bag as I am

 

[Ahhlee]

I am offering my opinion, I thought you were asking for each of us to offer our opinions on this idea and how people will react? In my opinion this is an unhealthy idea on a mental level because we are humans, not computers where you set the varible and it will always be exactly the same.

People change, hell I have not met a woman yet who was the same every day on all things, just because two people may agree to this in the beginning, that is not a gurantee they will find this acceptable forever and the one who changes their mind first will be facing the other with "Well you agreed before we started this, why are you changing your mind now?".

Yet you find the concept of two people pledging to remain faithful to one another "'til death do us part" as morally acceptable and "healthy" even though you concede that people change. A lifetime commitment is a lot to ask from creatures burdened with such fluid whims, no?

So what's the difference between the two situations? Is it that monogamy is the Christian ideal, therefore it's better in your eyes?

I think two consenting adults are perfectly capable of making their own relationship guidelines, without God's expressed approval, and what works or doesn't work for them is no one's business but their own.

Your entitled to your idea of love, again I am offering my view of love from my life. No insult but you have mentioned having many problems in that department so maybe you have never known the kind of deep love I feel? There are certainly different "levels" (whatever you want to call it) of love and the love I feel for Tami for example is something where I could never share myself with anyone else, and I certainly do not want her sharing herself with anyone else......

To me sex is like a secret, the more people you share it with, the more worthless it becomes.

I have loved, TJ.....DEEPLY! It is completely pretentious and yes, very insulting, to assume that I have not loved as deeply as you. Don't you ever presume to know the depths of my heart.....because you do not.

Just because I don't parade my "love" around like some kind of trophy doesn't mean it doesn't exist in my life.

Let me just say that I hope my significant other sees me as something more than a dog in heat.

Maybe you'll be seen as a stuffed wallet instead. Would that be better for you, morally? Does sex trump greed in the deadly sins department? I forget.

You reduced my comment to an incomperable statement. I returned the favor.

Again, you were asking for our opinions and in my opinion based on my understanding of the kind of deep and exclusive love I have for Tami there is no possible way I could consider recreational sex with strangers as part of our relationship.

So don't do that in your relationship. There's my opinion.

The best things in life are not easy.

Who said this lifestyle choice would be easy? Acceptable and easy are two different concepts entirely.

Or maybe people are mistaking lust for love? Maybe basing a relationship on sex instead of love has it's long term problems?

Again, you're using your definition of love as a measuring mark. It's not fair to say that such a relationship is based on sex rather than love when the opposite could be true. You are simply drawing conclusions based on your own personal prejudices.

All relationships are vulnerable to long term problems. I can't think of any that would be exempt.

Well, certainly everything can be reduced to possible harm but my point is why go out of your way to do something that has so many possibilities of failure? You know, play the odds a little? My point about breaking condoms and other diseases condoms cannot prevent is why take a chance of bringing home a disease to someone you love?

Is a moment of "free sex" with a stranger really worth taking a disease home to your loved ones?

If both parties still feel this is an arrangement that could work for them despite knowing the risks involved, that's their choice to make.....free country and all that.

I know, I am not EM but I had to comment:

I think your selling yourself too short Ali. Me and you have had a lot of issues but I refuse to believe you cannot find someone who can be loyal to you. Maybe you need to look in different places? Give "not looking" a chance, when I met Tami I had no intention of ever being in a serious relationship again and sex between us did not happen for a very long time.


Anything worth having is worth the wait. Anything you get for free is worth the price.

Despite what you may think to the contrary, I am not currently looking for a relationship.

 

[Ahhlee]

Oh Ali girl.....

Your list is adorable, and I can foresee many men that wouldn't think that's difficult to manage and would find it endearing and exciting.

As for being cheated on previously and this being a hope of circumnavigating the inevitable...that makes me sad. You are much more valuable than you realize. I would hope that this sort of lifestyle isn't something you would choose or settle for because of a fear of being hurt. I think I know you well enough...that this may serve you well in the short term...but you're much more traditional than you realize.

You want a good man, you just don't believe there are any out there. There are.

Don't buy the pig when all you need is a little sausage So crude...but so true teehee.

Em, I heard about this arrangement from another source and I found the concept intriguing! I'm one of those people who loves to dissect and dismantle philosophies and see if any of the pieces would fit into the never ending puzzle of my own life.

While this is something I'm very curious about, and logistically believe it could work well for me, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to commit to such a lifestyle.

After all, I am the biggest commitmentphobe there is. Haha!

No...I'm just toying with ideas and I thought it would make for an interesting discussion here on the boards. And it has!

BTW...no one is as good in a sleeping bag as I am

AND HOW!!!!!!

 

[eddo]

70's porn is nasty.

Those people really shoulda quit when they were in their 40's.

 

[Ahhlee]

70's porn is nasty.

Those people really shoulda quit when they were in their 40's.

Hater.

 

[timesjoke]

Yet you find the concept of two people pledging to remain faithful to one another "'til death do us part" as morally acceptable and "healthy" even though you concede that people change. A lifetime commitment is a lot to ask from creatures burdened with such fluid whims, no?

So what's the difference between the two situations? Is it that monogamy is the Christian ideal, therefore it's better in your eyes?

I think two consenting adults are perfectly capable of making their own relationship guidelines, without God's expressed approval, and what works or doesn't work for them is no one's business but their own.

Your trying to turn this into something personal, you asked for opinions and ideas on how we saw this and I offered my views.

I do not base this on my faith entirely, instead I look back for thousands of years and see that what tends to work in relationships is for the pair to be dedicated to each other. I also see what happens when people stray and the emotional roller coaster that follows.

It just seems logical to me that if you deeply care about someone on that level, you would want to make it special. To me sex is an expression of love, not to be confused with a night with friends playing spades.

I have loved, TJ.....DEEPLY! It is completely pretentious and yes, very insulting, to assume that I have not loved as deeply as you. Don't you ever presume to know the depths of my heart.....because you do not.

Just because I don't parade my "love" around like some kind of trophy doesn't mean it doesn't exist in my life.

I was just offering ideas, concepts Ali, your always take everythign so personal and think I am trying to attack you or something whan I am not. I don't know what your experiences are like but you have shared a lot of very bad things as a result to your relationships so is it really so crazy for me to think "maybe" you have become jaded?

I don't think your a bad person for having a different idea about what love it then me, I am just offering you what love means to me. If anything I feel a little insulted you think getting mad at me for sharing my idea of love is reasonable. Why should only your idea of love be reasonable?

Maybe you'll be seen as a stuffed wallet instead. Would that be better for you, morally? Does sex trump greed in the deadly sins department? I forget.

You reduced my comment to an incomperable statement. I returned the favor.

Not really, but redirect if you like, but I will say on this point that true love cannot be found unless both people see each other as equals.

So don't do that in your relationship. There's my opinion.

I won't....lol

Who said this lifestyle choice would be easy? Acceptable and easy are two different concepts entirely.

Wrong point, you said being "everything" was a big pressure, and my point is that pressure is worth it for the kind of love that will result.

Again, you're using your definition of love as a measuring mark. It's not fair to say that such a relationship is based on sex rather than love when the opposite could be true. You are simply drawing conclusions based on your own personal prejudices.

When asked for my opinion what definitions should I be using? I don't concern myself with fair because life is rarely fair, but it is more often than not predictable.

Sex can keep people together in the short term, but two people need something much more to keep them together past the stage where real life gets frustrating, especially once the kids start comming. Without being fully in love and completely committed to each other, there is no way for two people to stay together, and the divorce rate proves that in my opinion.

If you were completely committed to each other, why would you divorce? One or the other was not fully committed obviously, so they could not have been really in love, simple logic to me, but I admit this is my opinion and I can easily be wrong being human and all that.

All relationships are vulnerable to long term problems. I can't think of any that would be exempt.

True, but you can add things that increase the possibility of problems, take driving very fast for example, that is dangerious to be sure but then start drinking, and talking on the phone, and a rainy day, at night..........

Playing the odds.

If both parties still feel this is an arrangement that could work for them despite knowing the risks involved, that's their choice to make.....free country and all that.

I never said otherwise but I did ask a very specific question I would like you to address.

If you really loved someone, why would you think a night of sex with a stranger is worth possibly bringing a disease home to your loved one? Would you not want to avoid any situation where you could hurt your special person?

Despite what you may think to the contrary, I am not currently looking for a relationship.

I never said you did, I was just saying that you were selling yourself short. Your not a bad person and if you "settle" for less than your true desire your just giving up. I went over three years without ever having sex before meeting Tami and even then we did not have sex for a very long time after we started to date. We did not explore sex until we found love.

In my opinion letting love define sex seems to allow a greater level of success in that area. And again I can also be wrong, this is just my opinion.






Oh, and get your behind over to my tat thread and give me some ideas and thoughts, I know your artsy fartsy and want your input.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Ok, I'm going to agree with you folks that if a couple was enjoying a traditional marriage and all of the sudden one spouse brought up this arrangement, it would most likely be a good reason to hit the marital panic button. Totally understandable!

Speaking for myself, with the right man, this is something I would bring up early on in the relationship just to see where he stands on the subject. And if I really, really liked him, I wouldn't necessarily dump him if he vehemently objected.

But again, the odds of me finding someone:

A) compatible with me

B) willing to put up with my numerous and varied idiosyncrasies

C) as in to bad 70's porn as I am

D) who can sing a Johnny Horton tune in its entirety

E) who loves to smooch on a cold, rainy day

F) I'm still thinking about smooching

G) who has never killed, wanted to kill, pretended to kill or plotted to kill a polar bear

H) who thinks my tractor's sexy

I) who would humor me and let me serve lefse at Thanksgiving dinner...and eat it!

J) who wouldn't interrupt me when I'm watching "Family Guy" or "Ghost Adventures"

K) who would love me even when my Vikings beat his team out in the play-offs

L) who would take out the garbage

M) who would let me sleep on the right side of the bed

N) who thinks plaid Vikings pajama pants are cute, as well as nerdy glasses

O) that isn't a serial killer

P) who knows my favorite color, flower, holiday, seaon and my eye color

Q) who won't yell at me if I get in a fender bender after buying a new pair of shoes

R) who will take me on a corn field maze date extraordinaire!

S) who is as good at cuddling nude in a sleeping bag with me as emkay is

T) who not only understands my love for black Sharpies, but nurtures that love as well

U) who doesn't think I'm a complete geek for watching Adult Swim

V) who would teach me how to shoot a gun

W) who would make mercury stop picking on me!!!!

X) that actually read through this entire list

Y) Where was I going with this?

Z) Oh yeah....who would be open to a "don't ask, don't tell" week vacation.

Are slim to none.

I was thinking that the character from the show Dexter was looking to be perfect until i got to O... What if he's a good serial killer that only kills murderers?