Arizona State Senator responds to Immigration

[phreakwars]

Did they somehow think that opponents would not parse the language carefully? After all, it wasn’t just people on the Left who objected to the vague notion of “lawful contact� in this passage. Plenty of people on the Right also expressed concern about the potential for police to assume expansive powers to stop and question people with no probable cause other than assumptions about immigration status. Even some of the police in Arizona objected to it.

So yeah, I'd say my concern was justified..

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[timesjoke]

Can you give an idea how we can send illegals home without asking them if they are illegal?

Simple... no jobs, no illegals. Come down extremely hard on the people who employ them.

So how do you come down on employers for hiring illegals if your not allowed to ask the workers if they are illegal?

Again, your dancing all around the point, at some point the illegal has to be asked if he is illegal, you say we cannot ask that question, so nothing can be done.

 

[eddo]

The potential that is still there to profile AMERICAN citizens.

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this potential is ALWAYS there- no matter what law you are trying to enforce or argue against. If you cannot trust your law enforcement officers to do their job right, then this (or any other) law will make no difference in that.

Sheriff Dupnick up above apparently cannot trust his deputies to do what is right. That is a shame.

Will Americans occasionally be asked for id to prove they are American Citizens? Yes, it will happen. (like I said- it happened to me only yesterday and I was in no way committing a crime or being questioned about one.) Provide a state issued id card of some sort and all should be fine. then carry on with your life.

 

[phreakwars]

Can you give an idea how we can send illegals home without asking them if they are illegal?

Simple... no jobs, no illegals. Come down extremely hard on the people who employ them.

So how do you come down on employers for hiring illegals if your not allowed to ask the workers if they are illegal?

Again, your dancing all around the point, at some point the illegal has to be asked if he is illegal, you say we cannot ask that question, so nothing can be done.

Dancing around the point my ***.

Well Gee, that's what proper documentation and identification are for when you are hired for a job. You ain't gonna tell me the guys that hire illegals have no idea that an employee is illegal. If they hire them, more then likely they are getting paid under the table.. they can't ALL have illegal papers ya know. Most of these guys stand around corners waiting for someone to offer them work. The Arizona law DOES address this, but IMHO, the punishment for doing so is VERY weak. Start making it a felony and threatening the guys that hire them with some serious jail time, they'll think twice before hiring Paco to save a few bucks.

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[phreakwars]

Will Americans occasionally be asked for id to prove they are American Citizens? Yes, it will happen. (like I said- it happened to me only yesterday and I was in no way committing a crime or being questioned about one.) Provide a state issued id card of some sort and all should be fine. then carry on with your life.

It's not a matter of being asked for an ID, it's the circumstances involved in the request. .

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[timesjoke]

Dancing around the point my ***.

Well Gee, that's what proper documentation and identification are for when you are hired for a job. You ain't gonna tell me the guys that hire illegals have no idea that an employee is illegal. If they hire them, more then likely they are getting paid under the table.. they can't ALL have illegal papers ya know. Most of these guys stand around corners waiting for someone to offer them work. The Arizona law DOES address this, but IMHO, the punishment for doing so is VERY weak. Start making it a felony and threatening the guys that hire them with some serious jail time, they'll think twice before hiring Paco to save a few bucks.

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Your still dancing around the point Bender, why is this question too hard for you to answer?

How do you find an employer guilty of hiring illegals if you at the same time can never ask the illegal if they are in fact illegal? Would not establishing the worker as illegal be the first step in that process? If you can't ask the worker any questions, and you can't figure out if the worker is here illegally, you sure as heck can't charge the employer now can you?

 

[phreakwars]

TJ, you are a moron and a half, I already answered your stupidity, get lost, you make me sick.

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[eddo]

TJ, you are a moron and a half, I already answered your stupidity, get lost, you make me sick.

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so you erased him from the thread?

LAME.

If this is how the debate is gonna go, I'm done...

 

[phreakwars]

No I went to hit the ignore button for him and accidentally set him on ignore for everyone. Not used to the IPB interface yet.It's fixed now.

 

[timesjoke]

so you erased him from the thread?

LAME.

If this is how the debate is gonna go, I'm done...

lol, as usual all he can do is run away from direct questions, he calles me moron, stupid, etc all the time, but I ask a question he can't answer and he loses his cool, typical liberal.

 

[hugo]

Did they somehow think that opponents would not parse the language carefully? After all, it wasn’t just people on the Left who objected to the vague notion of “lawful contact� in this passage. Plenty of people on the Right also expressed concern about the potential for police to assume expansive powers to stop and question people with no probable cause other than assumptions about immigration status. Even some of the police in Arizona objected to it.

So yeah, I'd say my concern was justified..

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The law as originally written would have been struck down as a violation of the 4th Amendment. The wording was vague at best and allowing almost unlimited search powers at worst. Of course racists don't really give a **** about the Bill of Rights.

 

[snafu]

I’m sorry but there aren’t any white Mexicans crossing the boarder illegal. We need to fix this problem and if in tales “profiling’ then I think we should. The security of our nation far exceeds the little inconvenience to some of our citizens like asking for ID.

 

[timesjoke]

I’m sorry but there aren’t any white Mexicans crossing the boarder illegal. We need to fix this problem and if in tales “profiling’ then I think we should. The security of our nation far exceeds the little inconvenience to some of our citizens like asking for ID.

Exactly, this is why Bender is so ****** off at me, he knows the only way to know "IF" someone is illegal is to directly ask people. He says come down on employers but still you must first establish the worker is illegal before you can charge the employer so at some point, the question must be asked.

 

[phreakwars]

Did they somehow think that opponents would not parse the language carefully? After all, it wasn’t just people on the Left who objected to the vague notion of “lawful contact� in this passage. Plenty of people on the Right also expressed concern about the potential for police to assume expansive powers to stop and question people with no probable cause other than assumptions about immigration status. Even some of the police in Arizona objected to it.

So yeah, I'd say my concern was justified..

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The law as originally written would have been struck down as a violation of the 4th Amendment. The wording was vague at best and allowing almost unlimited search powers at worst. Of course racists don't really give a **** about the Bill of Rights.

Exactly. And they gotta make it into a **** Right .vs Left issue, when what it really comes down to is equal rights of all individuals. It's way too easy to have no problem with someone else's rights being violated, as long as it doesn't affect you personally. You can't say "OH THOSE **** LIBERALS THIS AND THAT", when anybody with half a brain can see the problem here, even Republicans..

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[phreakwars]

I’m sorry but there aren’t any white Mexicans crossing the boarder illegal. We need to fix this problem and if in tales “profiling’ then I think we should. The security of our nation far exceeds the little inconvenience to some of our citizens like asking for ID.

He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.
Even if it means giving up your fellow mans freedoms for your own security.

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[eddo]

No I went to hit the ignore button for him and accidentally set him on ignore for everyone. Not used to the IPB interface yet.It's fixed now.

lol, ok.

 

[snafu]

I’m sorry but there aren’t any white Mexicans crossing the boarder illegal. We need to fix this problem and if in tales “profiling’ then I think we should. The security of our nation far exceeds the little inconvenience to some of our citizens like asking for ID.

He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.
Even if it means giving up your fellow mans freedoms for your own security.

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Who's freedom are we giving up? How about the farmer and his dog? Who's protecting his freedom and rights? Who's protecting his land? Asking for ID takes no freedom from anybody.

 

[timesjoke]

Funny as **** watching hugo and Bender give each other kudos and high fives and at the same time pretend to be on different ends of the political spectrum, lol.

 

[snafu]

Good qoute though..

 

[phreakwars]

I’m sorry but there aren’t any white Mexicans crossing the boarder illegal. We need to fix this problem and if in tales “profiling’ then I think we should. The security of our nation far exceeds the little inconvenience to some of our citizens like asking for ID.

He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.
Even if it means giving up your fellow mans freedoms for your own security.

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Who's freedom are we giving up? How about the farmer and his dog? Who's protecting his freedom and rights? Who's protecting his land? Asking for ID takes no freedom from anybody.

Again, that depends on the circumstances for asking. Are we not free to walk down a road without our motives being questioned?

Look REAL CLOSE at this:

View attachment 2784

Do you see the potential flaws with this?

Suppose a cop is driving by a neighborhood and sees a bunch of guys just casually sitting on a porch conversing, he could use the excuse that he suspects all the individuals might be living there and are in violation of rental codes which only permit so many occupants in a residence, and use that as justification to ID all individuals. Well, what if the individuals he wants to ID don't have one on them.... after all, one does not need an ID just to be somewhere, they are not driving any vehicle, maybe they walked to their friends house and have their I.D. at home... why should they be subject to such scrutiny? Would you like that, do you consider that being free?

Or maybe use a city ordinance excuse like "YOUR GRASS LOOKS PRETTY HIGH" Now show me some I.D. Or perhaps you have a car up on jacks because your changing the oil... show me some ID.

THAT I have a problem with.

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