Christianity. Blasphemy. Brainwashing.

[Jhony5]

Last Easter I visited my brothers house. He has 3 children (4, 2, 6 months) and he and his wife only attend church twice a year with their children, on Easter and Christmas. They send their two oldest children to a Christian daycare. My brother I know for a fact is not in anyway a believer. Quite the opposite really. His wife is what I call a convenience Christian. She only acts Christian when its convenient. They believe, apparently, that to instill proper morals in your children you must put the fear of god into them.

Well last Easter I'm sitting there with my 4 year old nephew and he has this book he got from his daycare. A lighthearted short story of the death and resurrection of Christ. Hes going through this book with me and explaining that Jesus died for our sins, and then came back to life. I asked him "What is sin". He said "Its bad things we do. Jesus died and then he came back. Isn't that neat"?

I was appalled at witnessing the manipulative brainwashing of an innocent child first hand. Heres this kid, 4 years old, being taught that people can die and come back to life. Learning of Holy Ghosts, spirits, afterlife, resurrection, Adam & Eve, original sin, the wraith of god, all that comes with Christianity. I'm sure the depth and unlikeliness of these events eludes his young mind. However one point had clearly taken hold. He said it many times, as if to display his excitement and fascination with the fact that people can die and come back to life.

Is this damaging to a child's psyche? All of this, combined with the other "fun" horror stories we indulge our children in for fun. Santa Claus, a magical elf that accomplishes the impossible task of delivering presents to all the worlds children through the utilization of flying magical reindeer. Is this damaging to a child's psyche?

The tooth fairy, a winged spirit that enters your room at night to exchange money for misbegotten teeth. Is this damaging to a child's psyche?

The Easter bunny, a whimsical magical man sized rabbit that treats children to chocolate confections and baskets filled with candy. He hides eggs all about, wishing children to spend their morning searching for them. Is this damaging to a child's psyche?

When my daughter is scared of the dark. When she is afraid to enter a dark room, is it because of the movie she saw last night? Or is it a manifestation of the lies I told her about generous elf's, magical reindeer, flying fairies and candy dispersing talking rabbits?

If I was to teach my child that a happy ogre named Goldorf, will enter our home every Friday night when she goes to bed and give us money under our Goldorfien tree, what would people think of me? Am I abusing my child by teaching her of an unconventional being that has magical powers? Would my child be taken away because of my ridiculous story of magic and wonder?

The point to all this is, do people really understand what effect this sort of thing has on a child? To teach them of Christian fairy tales?

Can it really be harmless fun to teach your child of these impossible tales?

I came across this link the other day and I found the hypocrisy of the FOX news anchor both in step with the religious rights hypocrisy, and a great example of how speaking out against brainwashing children about fairy tales is seen as evil in our society.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDB3rHOHu4E"]YouTube - Blasphemy Challenge On HEARTLAND[/ame]



WAIT! Did you hear that er? He accused this man of being manipulative. HES MANIPULATIVE? He's speaking out against blatant manipulation.
He accused this man of "preying on young people".

The news anchor continues his ignorant slant by saying "Religion is about loving yourself and others, loving god". This is preposterous and subtracts the overtly threatening message of eternal damnation, original sin and an angry god. He goes on to express how appalled he is that this man is teaching children that they will go to hell. Which is totally ed up and backward.
He's speaking out AGAINST this practice. Its the Christians that teach hell, damnation and the like. Not Atheism. Atheism gives a perspective that is free from this sort of worry.

In short, this interview provides a stunning example of how Christianity views atheist as evil. Its OK to teach your other peoples children of resurrection, eternal damnation, an angry vengeful god that watches everything you do. But it is not OK to teach other peoples children that this stuff isn't true.

Why is our society this way? How did we do this to ourselves?

"But whoever blasphemies against the holy spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

 

[snafu]

I've taught my kids to think for themselves. Yes they believed in Santa Claus but it didn't them up. They got over it when they figured it out. It's fun to believe in something.
I don't take them to church because I don't go although I do believe in god. I don't like church. Preachers like to tell you what the bible says. When my son asked me the other day if he could go to church with a girl he met at school, I said sure. I was happy that he would see and decide for himself. This jerk and the the kids denouncing god and Jesus is bull . If you don't believe shut the up. It's for the shock value thats all. It's for attention. Leave other peoples faith alone.

 

[Jhony5]

This jerk and the the kids denouncing god and Jesus is bull . If you don't believe shut the up. It's for the shock value thats all. It's for attention. Leave other peoples faith alone.

Why is it different then any other belief system though? This man isn't teaching them anything at all. He's allowed them an avenue to express their true feelings. These kids are already aware that what they've been taught is bull . The website is a way for them to validate their own beliefs, or lack thereof.

75% of Christian teens leave the church at age 18. Coincidentally the same time they are legally allowed to separate from their parents. Teenagers, preteens, young children, are taught that not believing what they're told to believe is evil. They will burn in hell, and are summarily ostracized for their lack of belief in Christ.

All this man has done is provide these kids with validation. Validation that what they believe, or do not believe, is their choice. If they denounce Christ, ITS OK.

I respect you snafu, but I'm gonna fully disagree with your assertions here.
I'll focus on this;

If you don't believe shut the up.

Why?
Why must one "shut the up" if they don't believe, but if they do, feel free to scream it out? Slap a bumper sticker on your car that says "Real men love Jesus" and your good. Slap a sticker on your bumper that says "The Christ Illusion" and your an evil stirring troll just looking to shock people.

Its damaging to children to teach them about God. About resurrection. About historical inaccuracies. About creationism. About invisible spirits that watch you and will condemn you to eternal hell fire for what you say or think or do.

Humanity has ripped itself asunder for all time over differences in stories that AREN'T EVEN TRUE!

What we see on that website are teens that are sick of being confused. Sick of feeling like outcasts because they won't just play along and be good Christians like everyone else. They are saying to the world "I don't want to believe your stories".

Its liberating to finally strip themselves of a lifestyle that they know is built on lies.

Why, Snafu, is it OK to discuss your belief in God and Christ with others, but its not OK to denounce what you feel you have been forced to believe?

These kids have been forced, FORCED, to believe in something that isn't true.

I've taught my kids to think for themselves. Yes they believed in Santa Claus but it didn't them up. They got over it when they figured it out. It's fun to believe in something.

I taught my daughter the same thing. Most of us do teach our kids about Santa Claus. Often, learning that this was a "fun" lie is a child's first experience with deceit. Fun deceit, but deceit nonetheless. When my daughter tells me shes afraid of the boogieman, ghosts or monsters, how the hell am I to tell her those things aren't real when I just spent 8 years training her to believe that a fairy flies into her window and gives her money for her teeth? Why should my daughter believe me when I say "There are no such things as monsters", when I taught her that once a year, a magical elf and flying reindeer land on our roof, the magic elf appears in our home while we sleep, eats cookies and leaves presents for us?

There is no way. no way whatsoever, that these practices aren't in some way causing psychological issues with children.

"There are no ghosts or monsters honey. Make sure you say your prayers tonight and stay away from sin, or else the invisible man that died, came back to life, ascended into heaven and watches everything you do will condemn you to an eternity of smoldering in the pits of hell. Good night sweetie!!"


Don't tell me it doesn't them up, at least to some extent. Fact is, our society has grown so accustomed to the ill effects produced by such bizarre practices such as Christianity, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, the Tooth fairy, that we don't even recognize the harm.

I was a kid once. I remember it clearly. Being creeped out endlessly at the thought of the tooth fairy. Thats no joke, I'm not being funny. It creeped me out.

 

[snafu]

What I see from that video is kids looking for someone to acknowledge their existence by any means. "Look at me!" Tomorrow that same kid might be down at the church asking god for forgiveness. The internet is just a new way to say here I am.

Oh and no offense to you either.

 

[snafu]

Bye the way. That's the part of the whole Jesus story I have trouble with. Raising from the dead? I mean if your gonna through that much trouble wouldn't want to leave some proof?

 

[Jhony5]

What I see from that video is kids looking for someone to acknowledge their existence by any means. "Look at me!" Tomorrow that same kid might be down at the church asking god for forgiveness. The internet is just a new way to say here I am.

Oh, no doubt. Many of these kids are just angst ridden rebellious punks that want to anger people. But along with the throngs of assholes there are undoubtedly many kids that truly feel torn by the conflict. Parents and a community that demand them to think a certain way, and their actual thoughts and beliefs.

I can relate. I remember in the 2nd grade when it came out that I didn't believe in God or go to church, a pack of kids standing around me tearing at my thought like ravenous wolves.

"What do you mean you don't believe in God, who do you think made your shirt"

"Errrmmm....K-Mart?"

"No God made the cotton that they made your shirt from".

I was picked on for not believing in God, but did anyone give a shat? NOPE. The teachers didn't care. No one did. However, if a group of 2nd grade atheists stood around a Christian boy and did this, they would all be in serious trouble.

Oh and no offense to you either.

Bahhh, we go back a ways. Theres nothing personal when discussing opinion.

 

[Old Salt]

Bye the way. That's the part of the whole Jesus story I have trouble with. Raising from the dead? I mean if your gonna through that much trouble wouldn't want to leave some proof?

By the way, Islam teaches that Jesus was one of their greatest prophets - and that he did not die on the cross as reported in the Bible, therefore, was not resurrected.
Faith is a great thing. Whether it's faith that your car will start when you turn the key or faith in a higher power.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

As a Christian, I feel kind of attacked by this thread. I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit. I believe in creationism and that Jesus had the power to rise from the dead. It's a basic Faith that I have in my God. You don't have to believe, but you definately don't have to attack people that do have faith, for having faith.

 

[Jhony5]

As a Christian, I feel kind of attacked by this thread. I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit. I believe in creationism and that Jesus had the power to rise from the dead. It's a basic Faith that I have in my God. You don't have to believe, but you definately don't have to attack people that do have faith, for having faith.

Stinking hypocrisy.

You aren't being attacked. No more than I am when I have to listen to religious tards run off about my poor soul rotting in hell. Turn around is fair play, and thats all this thread or that website (blasphemy challenge) is, turn around. Back at 'cha. Don't like it? Well guess what Preachy McGodlington, I don't like it either. The practice of preaching religion (bearing witness) is a mandated requirement of Christianity.

At least I'm not gonna tell ya that your going to burn in a pit of fire for all eternity if you don't believe what I believe.
So tell me, Brotherman, why is it OK for you to bear witness but bearing witness against Christ is bad? An attack?

They are one and the same. The same practice, different perspectives.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

When a Christian bears witness to a non-believer, they don't attack them. When you're calling all that Christianity is based on a lie, that is an attack. See the difference?

 

[Jhony5]

When a Christian bears witness to a non-believer, they don't attack them. When you're calling all that Christianity is based on a lie, that is an attack. See the difference?

Threatening me with violent divine repercussion seems to qualify as an attack. Your belief's insist that I'm a doomed soul. My beliefs are that you're a fool for believing that I'm going to hell for not believing in an ancient lie.


Of course I wouldn't just approach a Christian on the street and proclaim that they are living a lie.

However this is a debate/discussion board meant for the free exchange of various ideals and opinion. Nothing said in this thread is meant as a personal attack on you or anyone else. If you feel offended by my offerings on Christ, I would not see any reason for you too want to continue to read my sorted diatribe.

All that being said, I think you are reinforcing my point. Nowhere is it acceptable for an atheist/agnostic to voice blasphemy. Not on a debate board. Not on youtube. Nowhere can I voice my belief, and inherently, my belief will go against Christianity. I'm not sure what label is proper for my belief, but its best summarized as an agnostic that is sure of the fallacies of the Christian faith.

For me to say what I believe, I must insult Christ. I don't wish it to be that way, but it is that way by default. I've actually had X-tians act insulted and hostile toward me when they hear my beliefs, despite the fact that they freaking asked me and were pressing me for info (bearing witness). The way I stand, Bro, don't bear witness to me if you don't want me to bear witness to you. Because I'll cite fact and leave you standing with a 2,000 year old book and the rules made of stone, stumped by science and logic, your only failsafe will be that you are in a majority belief system.

 

[snafu]

Well if you?re an atheist how can that be an attack? I mean you don?t believe, right? No hell no place to go. Religions are congregated. Atheists aren?t. I wouldn?t have any need to join a club that advocated man and animal integration because I don?t believe it exists.

 

[Jhony5]

Well if you’re an atheist how can that be an attack? I mean you don’t believe, right? No hell no place to go. Religions are congregated. Atheists aren’t. I wouldn’t have any need to join a club that advocated man and animal integration because I don’t believe it exists.

Good point, but as I said, I'm more agnostic than I am atheist. I don't actually feel as though I'm being attacked. I stated that only for posterity. I'm just saying what I believe, and they are just stating what they believe. Only difference being, when they say what they believe, its OK. When I say what I believe, its an attack.

I do however find it utterly insulting when a Christian tells me I'm not living my life right because my beliefs don't match up with his.

I'm open minded to many concepts of creation and afterlife, deities and demigods. I'll at least entertain the thoughts for amusements sake. What I won't do is allow a mere man to tell me unequivocally the secrets to the universe and the life hereafter. Thats what most religions are. Some guy telling you the answers to the most unanswerable questions imaginable. Some guy who heard it from some guy who heard it from another guy and so on.

So an open question for you two, Snafu and Bro-man.

The interview that I posted in the OP. Do you guys feels that this is an attack on Christians? Do you feel its a bad thing for teenagers to come together and validate each others dissension of the belief system they have been forced to digest?

 

[snafu]

I hear ya. I don’t like them or anybody telling me how I’m gonna live or die. I think it’s hypocritical of them to judge me. I don't believe I have to follow the bible. It was man written. I don’t like religious people knocking at my door either. But I did find the kids and their leader to be offensive. It wasn’t like they were just denouncing a higher power, but they were trying to attack people. What, is it supposed to be a pay back for bothering them?

I believe in a higher power. I believe in creation. I believe my higher power is God. Do I believe everything in the bible? No. Will that send me to hell? I really don’t think so but only my dieing will tell.

 

[Feckless Wench]

Man should never interfere between anyone and their vision of a God(dess). It is a private matter and should be answerable to no-one.

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

I am quite happy about some of the untruths we tell children. For example, Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunnies etc. These untruths are nothing more than attempts to entertain and reward kids, and also to fuel their imaginations. The latter is important. Imagination is part of the inventive process that will help them at schoolwork. It is also something useful for the rest of their lives.

We also tell them fibs designed to scare them, but with good reason. For example Jennie Green teeth is a nasty hag in some parts of the UK who will grab children at the waters edge and drag them under the water to drown. The purpose to to frighten children into keeping away from ponds/lakes /rivers. Several children die every year by drowning in the UK.

The sort of untruths told to children of which I disaprove include religion and all its lies. Here we see improper motives in these untruths.

Its purpose is to ensnare people/children in religion, and from there on, to make them fearful of non compliance, with threats of eternal torture. There is nothing innoncent in these religious lies.

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

As a Christian, I feel kind of attacked by this thread. I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit. I believe in creationism and that Jesus had the power to rise from the dead. It's a basic Faith that I have in my God. You don't have to believe, but you definately don't have to attack people that do have faith, for having faith.

BM we are not attacking you because you believe this stuff. We are just saying that we do not believe this stuff, and we do not approve of the indoctrination of children by any religious group.

 

[timesjoke]

WoW, this discussion can be split into 10 different segments and still be complex but I will try and keep my reply as short as possible considering how many concepts have been brought up.


First, God made man, man made religion in his feble attempt to worship God. Man has never been capable of doing anything perfect so it is not a surprise that man would not be capable of designing a "perfect" religion to worship God. This explains why there are so many different religions. There is no command from God to follow any one religion but he does give us some basic principles to follow in this life.

Yes, some people have used religion to do bad things but again, that is man's actions, not God's.


Second, even Richard Dawkins (the biggest athiest "preacher") admits that religion is a moderating factor for society, it helps to keep people together and allows for structure and peace in that society.

Every successful society that survived the test of time had a common belief structure that bound them together. That is not to say ony one specific set of beliefs is needed, just that there is a shared structure. As we saw with Rome, every indicator of the fall of Rome can be traced back to it's change in belief structure that made Rome strong.

Third, in every place Athiest beliefs have taken hold over the direction of a Country (the leaders) we have seen massive death as a result. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, are responsible for killing ten times more people than all the religious based killings combined.


Fourth, All laws are based on a standard of morals, and morals are all based on religious principles from a historic basis. Yes, it is possible for non-religious people to have good morals but it is religion that gives us a line drawn in the sand, a solid place to base our moral standing on while without religious standards, morals become flexable and subject to intrepretation.

Example: it is now okay to kill an unborn child up to the day of birth. A thing called partial birth abortion is one of the most horrendus things anyone could ever see but is completely legal in most Countries including America. From a religious stand, it is immoral to kill an unborn child for selfish reasons but from a non-religious stand, it is completely acceptable.


fifth, holidays and things like Santa put magic into a child's life. In reality, the world is a horrible place where people are sometimes killed for no reason at all. If we want to be completely honest with children, we should be showing them how many murders are committed each day because that is the pure reality of life. Children have plenty of time to find out the truth life has to bring, I see no reason to rush them into that ugly world and take away what innocence they can have for such a short time in this world.

Seeing the look in a child's eye when they wake up Christmas morning and see what Santa brought them is something I could never take away from a child.



Again, there are many complex issues being discussed here and it will get difficult to expand on them all at the same time. I have a lot more I can add if we want to go further but a complete post for all these points by me would be long to say the least.

Louis

 

[Jhony5]

God made man, man made religion in his feble attempt to worship God.

To assume a God made man, why is this seemingly a human instinct? Man created God as a means of explaining the unexplainable. As the human race progresses, our understanding of science, nature, technology and logic has replaced the need for God. There are still unexplainable questions however, so the need for God persists.

Man has never been capable of doing anything perfect so it is not a surprise that man would not be capable of designing a "perfect" religion to worship God. This explains why there are so many different religions.

There are so many different religions because they were created apart from one another. Separated by mountains and oceans various peoples fell back on a primal instinct of humanity, the need for a God to explain the unexplainable. Thunderstorms and lightening, great floods from the tsunami. These are most certainly acts of an angry God. He is displeased. On with the sacrifice, our God thirst for blood.

How were they to know of high and low pressure fronts, positive ions and continental shifts? Beyond there grasp, God explained these unexplainable occurrences. Much as we do today with questions such as "How was the universe created". With no ready explanation, God fills in the blanks. As long as there are unanswerable questions, there will still be a need for God.

Second, even Richard Dawkins (the biggest atheist "preacher") admits that religion is a moderating factor for society, it helps to keep people together and allows for structure and peace in that society.

The fatal flaw in this thinking is the fact that we live in a world community, consisting of many societies. Cultural differences are easy to overcome, but religious difference is a far higher obstacle. The "Our God is real and yours is false" premise has stirred up more war than any other conflict of interest.

Third, in every place Athiest beliefs have taken hold over the direction of a Country (the leaders) we have seen massive death as a result. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, are responsible for killing ten times more people than all the religious based killings combined.

I beg to differ with your math. All these leaders were indeed killing machines and atheist. However, their existence is but a flash in time. All existing during a microcosmic 30 year period. Their psychotic reign came not from lack of religion, rather from mental disorders. Going back thousands of years we saw far more tyranny and horror stemming from religious difference.

During the Black Plague of the 13th century the Catholics began to blame the Jews for the plague, claiming they had poisoned the wells and rivers. Countless millions were killed.

Fourth, All laws are based on a standard of morals, and morals are all based on religious principles from a historic basis. Yes, it is possible for non-religious people to have good morals but it is religion that gives us a line drawn in the sand, a solid place to base our moral standing on while without religious standards, morals become flexible and subject to interpretation.

Compassion and respect for life and freedom are humanity encapsulated. We all know the difference between right and wrong. I certainly didn't need religion to tell me that killing a man for his wad of cash is wrong. There were laws against stealing and killing long before the birth of Christ.

Example: it is now okay to kill an unborn child up to the day of birth. A thing called partial birth abortion is one of the most horrendus things anyone could ever see but is completely legal in most Countries including America. From a religious stand, it is immoral to kill an unborn child for selfish reasons but from a non-religious stand, it is completely acceptable.

The worst mistake that the anti-abortion lobby has committed to, is injecting religion into the matter. They should never speak a word of Christ or God when addressing the horror that is abortion. Christians made abortion a religious issue, and so it persists. Had they left God out of it, then abortion would be abolished. But they are to naive and foolish to do so. They feel compelled to invoke the name of Christ our Lord when addressing abortion. Which immediately creates an air of religious difference, and so the lines are drawn.

fifth, holidays and things like Santa put magic into a child's life. In reality, the world is a horrible place where people are sometimes killed for no reason at all. If we want to be completely honest with children, we should be showing them how many murders are committed each day because that is the pure reality of life. Children have plenty of time to find out the truth life has to bring, I see no reason to rush them into that ugly world and take away what innocence they can have for such a short time in this world.

Seeing the look in a child's eye when they wake up Christmas morning and see what Santa brought them is something I could never take away from a child.

The reasoning for me bringing that up, is that my daughter is 8 now and I just ing know she's not gonna believe in Santa this year. It got me thinking, I wonder if she'll ask me about it. I wonder if she'll think I deceived her or somehow it was a trick at her expense for my amusement. The Santa thing was fun, and I'm deeply saddened that its over with. It went so fast. It seems like just yesterday she was only 4 and starring at the empty plate of cookies and the empty glass of milk, eyes wide as quarters "I can't believe he came, he ate the cookies".

Jeeesh, I went and made myself sad

Anyway that got me thinking, I have never heard the issue addressed form a psychology standpoint. I thought it would be interesting to discuss.

Again, there are many complex issues being discussed here and it will get difficult to expand on them all at the same time. I have a lot more I can add if we want to go further but a complete post for all these points by me would be long to say the least.

I really only meant for this thread to involve discussion of brainwashing, blasphemy that resulted from rejection of the process and the various aspects of psychological issues stemming from lies we tell to our kids. Whether these lies are religious fairy tales, or Santa Claus.

As opposed to a debate over Christianity vs Atheism.

 

[timesjoke]

Well, I knew there were too many concepts being brought up to truly discuss them in one thread so I will back off and maybe we can make new threads some day later to give them the attention they deserve.

I do want to say this about God though.



You seem to concentrate a lot of energy on calling believers stupid, claiming things like storms and such as the reason we believers follow the teachings of God.

While your idea could explain how an uneducated and isolated village could have a "local" diety, it cannot explain how Christianity can be followed all over the Earth. I know I am not the smartest man on this Earth but I am far from an uneducated and isolated villager running in fear from lightning. The very fact that a religion like Christianity can endure many different cultures and Countries speaks more for it's truth than many other factors.


You can duck and dodge the facts for yourself if you like but you can't just remove the fact that when Athiests get power, they tend to be destructive, that is recorded history, not a made up theory. Athiests are responsible for ten times more killings than all the religious based killings put together.

The Spanish Inquisition caused the deaths of about 10,000 people and some say up to 100,000 people died from mistreatment in jails(depending on what historian you talk to). The many other "famous" stories are very sensational sounding but in reality, they are tiny, the Salem witch hunts for example claimed about 30 lives, hardly deserving of the "press" it gets.

Even Muslim fanatics kill very few, a few thousand on things like 9/11 but most of the time, it is only a few people but the attention given these attacks is vary large, so they sound significant.

Athiest leaders are credited with over 100 million killings, yes, 100,000,000 people have died in the persuit of spreading the Athiest "religion".



You and all other Athiest followers have every right to not believe in God if you wish, I fully support your right to follow whatever belief structure you like but it is when you try to tear down established beliefs in established communities you are doing wrong.





As far as what effect things like Santa clause can have on the minds of children, I cannot see how it can be bad. I was raised that way and I would assume you were too. As someone else said, it goes to imagination building and our imaginations are how we leap over problems, we find solutions that would be impossible without an imagination.