Christianity. Blasphemy. Brainwashing.

[Jhony5]

When you jump on me to Read when you completely missed what was being discussed, you prove your not capable of debating in a honest and fair way. You were talking down your nose at me and being a smart ass on top of that.


Your last reply was honestly juvilile and insulting and unless you can grow up, I will simply ignore your posts from this point on.

Oh stop it, would ya? How the hell are you gonna call me juvenile and immature not even one post after comparing me to Hitler because I speak out against theism?

I clearly said my number was a guess, what part of "guess" did you have difficulty understanding?

......and a pretty lame guess it was. Thats my rebuttal. Why combat rebuttals with insults? Time after time.

To be honest, this whole discussion is misguided and dishonest. We are entering into a "Who killed more people, theist or anti-theist" argument. Its silly and inconsequential. I think it can be said that both theist and anti-theist have contributed greatly to death and destruction. Keeping tally of the final score as if this is a contest of sorts, is silly and frankly a waste of time.


Agreed?

"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

I'm sure Hitler also believed that the planet was round and the Earth rotates around the sun. Are people that agree with scientific fact, somehow aligned with Hitler's genocidal philosophies, just because Hitler also agrees with said fact?


TJ, relax man. I have a brutal sense of humor. Anyone from the old GF can vouch for this. Humor doesn't translate well in typed format, so often people might think I'm being immature or insulting, when I'm really just keeping a discussion lighthearted.

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

Please take the time to read what I already posted,

I have read what you wrote TJ.

As clearly pointed out in the quotes I provided, when Hitler was talking to his top leadership and setting out the theories and concepts he believed in, Hitler was against religion and thought it needed to be completely removed from the world.

Hitler, and Stalin were baptised christians. Unless they formally renounced this religion at some point in later life, then they remained christians no matter what they may have said about it privately or publicly.

You say that athiests are responsible for many more deaths than thiests. This is not true.

The majority of living people are thiests. The further back in time we go we see less knowledge and understanding, and more superstition. Hence thiests were the majority then also. It follows then that if most people are/were theists, then most persecutions and murderous regimes were fronted by thiests.

The exact opposite of what you said is true. Thiests have killed significantly more people than athiests.

In fact, if you compare what Hitler said to what jhony5 has said here, you can see they sound very much alike.

I see no comparrison between Hitler and Jhony5

I am just wondering what professor got you to believe such trash when the facts clearly show very few deaths in connection to religious based battles while 100 million are directly connected to Athiest leaders.

Nonsense, two of the worst killers of all time were christians, and not the athiests you would like them to have been.

Please provide some kind of support for this claim of "millions" killed in medievel times by the church in Europe because I just got off the phone with a European history professor for the University of Florida and he never heard of such garbage. He told me of a few documented cases but to the best of his knowledge, there were only about 20,000 deaths reliably assigned to those problems relating to religious reasons. There were many battles and deaths during that time but only the most inept would assign all deaths to religious reeasons when most were for power, land, and even a few cases of insult where an arranged marriage was ended, that caused more deaths than all the religious deaths combined during that time.

As johno5 has already said it is not possible to produce statistics/data from an age when such things were not kept. We only have historical accounts of violence. I have read that the Christian King Charlemaigne killed 20 thousand pagans in his Saxony Wars. I cant imagine how many people, christian and otherwise were murdered by the Spanish Conquistadors. Nor estimate how many were murdered in the Christian persecution of witches. Nor do I have data on all the Jews murdered by Christians in Europe in the Medieval period. Thousands of catholics were murdered by Oliver Cromwell and his chums in Ireland at this time. These are just a few moments of infamy in Europe from this 4-5 century period. I would not be at all surprised if a million or more people died at the hands of christians within Europe at this time.


Again, terrorist attacks get a lot of attention so a couple thousand "sound" very powerful (that is why they do it) but combined, you may have about a million deaths directly assignable to religious zeal over the years while Athiest killings are over 100 million, clearly the Athiest agenda is the more harmful.

Nonsense. Goths, Visigoths, Saxons, Angles, Vikings, Rus, Celts, Huns, and Mongols all had their gods, and were therefore theists. These groups have killed huge numbers of people in the past.

Look at it another way, we have the guy pushing the Athiest agenda here calling all religious followers stupid, that is typical of all athiests.

I am not at all sure that this is typical . I have never called any thiests stupid.

they cannot just follow something themselves, they are driven to insult and attack religion any way possible. I have been a Christian my entire life and have never called a non-believer stupid.

You very readilly began the name calling. You have even likened J5 to Hitler.

If follow my Christian beliefs and I turn out to be wrong, I still provided a great deal of service to my comminity and world (remember, the only non-government groups helping in places like Rwanda are Christian) so I have nothing to be ashamed of. If I am wrong, fine, I will never know but my good deeds will still remain.

Christians are not alone in doing good deeds. We all mostly give to charity.

If you follow your athiest beliefs and turn out to be wrong, you will find out your wrong pretty fast and will not have any good deeds to speak for you.

So, you believe that only your group do good deeds. Nonsense.

It is a gamble, and you are fully allowed to take that gamble, that is the right of free will God has made possible for everyone, just stop trying to pull me down with you, there will be plenty of others to keep you company.

I am not trying to pull you anywhere. I am just surprised that anyone so readily believes something writen in a book, and blindly follows it.

It's a ing god job Josef Mengeles guided to torturing Jews is out of print.

 

[snafu]

I think religion has killed more people. Look at the Crusades. And they're still going on if you think about it.

 

[timesjoke]

Oh stop it, would ya? How the hell are you gonna call me juvenile and immature not even one post after comparing me to Hitler because I speak out against theism?

You accused all believers of being stupid and directly attacked all religion.

Calling me stupid to start every post is not a way to have a light discussion.

You told me I needed to read carefully what you said when it was you who could not understand the topic but attacked me from your misunderstanding, it is you who needs to take more time to read before you respond.

......and a pretty lame guess it was. Thats my rebuttal. Why combat rebuttals with insults? Time after time.

Why is it your uneducated estimates are so profound but a prefessor in European history gives his estimate and you say they are lame?

All estimates are lame, we have no provable numbers but they are clearly not even a speck compared to the deaths caused by Athiest killers who killed over 100 million people in the desire to remove all religion from the world.

To be honest, this whole discussion is misguided and dishonest. We are entering into a "Who killed more people, theist or anti-theist" argument. Its silly and inconsequential. I think it can be said that both theist and anti-theist have contributed greatly to death and destruction. Keeping tally of the final score as if this is a contest of sorts, is silly and frankly a waste of time.


Agreed?

Of course you don't want to discuss something that proves that Athiests in power have committed the greatest killings ever seen. It is not even close, hell we can double even your inflated estimates and we can't even get to 5% of the killings caused by the Athiest movement.

I gave the example of Mao Zedong who killed 40 million people just himself and you have nothing to say. If you refuse to even consider the facts, why are you having this discussion?

I'm sure Hitler also believed that the planet was round and the Earth rotates around the sun. Are people that agree with scientific fact, somehow aligned with Hitler's genocidal philosophies, just because Hitler also agrees with said fact?

It is the "anger" people like you show tword religion and those that follow it that is relivant.

TJ, relax man. I have a brutal sense of humor. Anyone from the old GF can vouch for this. Humor doesn't translate well in typed format, so often people might think I'm being immature or insulting, when I'm really just keeping a discussion lighthearted.

Lighthearted by calling all believers stupid?

Stop talking down your nose to me about religion and we can keep it lighthearted but don't ask me to take it easy when your every post is an insult to my life and belief structure.

I think religion has killed more people. Look at the Crusades. And they're still going on if you think about it.

It does not matter what you "think" it matters what you can prove. Most killings are done by Athiests, that is proven fact.





sheik-yerbouti

You got your hands over your ears yelling so you don't have to accept the truth and I guess that is okay for you if you prefer to be ignorant of the facts but those of us that require a few facts to base a decision need more than a desire for certain things to be true.

Hitler and Stalin were Athiests, this is fact, every historian agrees with this fact, who you are to say all people educated in this area are stupid and only you know the truth is really incredible.


If I say I am a black man, does me saying it make it true? The same holds true for people who "say" they are religious. In truth few are really religious but still there are many who truly are.

Being baptised is irrelivant.

Going to church is irrelivant.

Saying things in public is irrelivant.

Have you ever heard the old saying "actions speak louder then words"?

The actions of Hitler and Stalin proves beyone doubt that they were not Christians, combine with that fact statements like Hitler saying he only believed in evolution and all religion needed to be completely removed from the world and you can see who a person "truly" is no matter what else they claim to be.

I will tell you like I told Johnny5, if you are not capable of understanding how a person can offer a false public face, then you cannot understand this topic.




And no, non-religious people do not tend to help others, it is their selfishness in their hearts that precludes them from helping other people. That is why there are no non-religious groups in places like Darfur helping people.


But here is your chance to prove me wrong, name a non-religious group that is in Darfur helping like the religious groups (non-government).

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

sheik-yerbouti

You got your hands over your ears yelling so you don't have to accept the truth

Your truth is imaginary. It was made up by some early businessmen. All these years later, other businessmen maintain this lucrative business, so that vulnerable people like you keep them in well paid emplyment.

and I guess that is okay for you if you prefer to be ignorant of the facts

Ignorant of the facts ? What facts ? There are no sky-faeries.

but those of us that require a few facts to base a decision need more than a desire for certain things to be true.

Please share these facts proving your religion to be true with us. You cannot. Your facts are nothing more than supersticious nonsense.

Hitler and Stalin were Athiests

Nonsense. Hitler and Stalin were baptised Christians who never renounced their religion officially as far as I know. They were indeed theists.

this is fact, every historian agrees with this fact,

It does not matter who agrees with you, historian or otherwise. Those two murdering creeps were Christians. Provide some proof than one or both of these arse wipes ever officially left their religion.

who you are to say all people educated in this area are stupid and only you know the truth is really incredible.

Now you accuse me of things I did not do ! I never said historians were stupid. And I certainly did not say that only I knew the truth. It is theists who believe only they know the truth.

I accept I may be wrong. Wher as with theists, there can never be such acceptance. For you and others like you, there is just this one certainty- YOU ARE RIGHT ! And anyone who requires such a thing as a fact, is a doubting Thomas, who will surely burn in your imaginary hell fires !!!!!!!!!!

If I say I am a black man, does me saying it make it true? The same holds true for people who "say" they are religious. In truth few are really religious but still there are many who truly are.

People may not be religious, but if they are members of a religion, they remain members of that religion until they officially leave it, or die.

Being baptised is irrelivant.

It is certainly relevant. Being initiated into a group, makes you a member of the group. To divorce oneself from the group and all it stands for, one must officially leave the group.

Going to church is irrelivant.

Saying things in public is irrelivant.

Have you ever heard the old saying "actions speak louder then words"?

The actions of Hitler and Stalin proves beyone doubt that they were not Christians,

I would have said that the actions of Hitler and Stalin confirm that they were Christians. This particular theist sect has a long history of killing, and torturing.

combine with that fact statements like Hitler saying he only believed in evolution and all religion needed to be completely removed from the world and you can see who a person "truly" is no matter what else they claim to be.

And what of the early Christian Popes, with their retinues of whores and illegitimate children ? Were they not Christians ? What of Tony Bliar and George Bush. These two Christians have sent young men to die abroad in battle, both from the USA and the UK. Thousand of Iraqi civillians are dead because of the desires of these two. Are they not Christian, because their behaviour is offensive ? Shall we now call them Atheists to spare your blushes ? Of course they are Christians !

You dont suddenly become a giraffe because you are ashamed of being a lion ! Those people are all Christians, and remain so, regardless of the things they have, or have not done. This is true unless they officially leave their church.

It does not matter what Hitler or Stalin said or thought of the church, to leave it, they must have officially and publicly renounce Chrstianity and become appostates. I don't think either ever did this.

I will tell you like I told Johnny5, if you are not capable of understanding how a person can offer a false public face, then you cannot understand this topic.

More insulting tosh from your closed mind

And no, non-religious people do not tend to help others, it is their selfishness in their hearts that precludes them from helping other people.

Nonsense, I am non religious and I always give to charity.

That is why there are no non-religious groups in places like Darfur helping people.

This is a self-serving argument. You select a place where your group are doing some charitable work, and imply that non religious groups do not give to that target group. It does not follow that the athiests are not helping other people period.
I, like you and most other Westerners, regularly find requests for money from charities in my letter box. It is untruthful and unpleasant of you to say that non religious people do not help others.

But here is your chance to prove me wrong, name a non-religious group that is in Darfur helping like the religious groups (non-government).

There may be no organised athiest assistance to Darfur. It does not follow that Athiests do not help the people of Darfur. It is the public who put money into the hands of the Red Cross and other relief agencies. And a sizeable number of Athiests have contributed, you can be sure of that.

After all you unpleasant comments I would like to make one of my own. Perhaps your religious group (non government) are only helping in Darfur, because Darfur has a significant Christian community. Yet your religion insists that all men are equal. Clearly your group does not treat all men as equal. I wonder what your sky-faerie makes of this avoidance of his wishes.

 

[Jhony5]

You accused all believers of being stupid and directly attacked all religion.

You keep saying this, but its not true. I have not once claimed that "All Christians are stupid". We are having a religious debate, but you seem to be taking everything I say so personally, as an attack on you. How can I offer an opposing view on religion in a debate on religion without speaking against religion? Honestly, I never said you were stupid. I said this the first time you accused me of such practice;

[/B] To be honest, I have no idea how an intelligent person can subscribe to ideas that are so obviously wrong. I really just don't get it. [/U']

I admitted that I don't have an understanding of how people believe in such things. That doesn't mean I write all Christians off as stupid.

Calling me stupid to start every post is not a way to have a light discussion.

What post number? Where? When? Stop it. I haven't called YOU stupid. But I will call you a liar.

Of course you don't want to discuss something that proves that Atheists in power have committed the greatest killings ever seen. It is not even close, hell we can double even your inflated estimates and we can't even get to 5% of the killings caused by the Atheist movement.

I gave the example of Mao Zedong who killed 40 million people just himself and you have nothing to say. If you refuse to even consider the facts, why are you having this discussion?

Allow me to drop some facts on your funky ass, since you refuse to drop this pointless . The only leader that appeared on your list of Atheist leaders committing atrocities that is actually recognized as an atheist, is Joseph Stalin. Thats it. Just him.

You are defining what an atheist is. You are using your own fouled understanding of the complexities of atheism to draw your own conclusions. You are stating it as an empirical fact that atheism was the cause of the greatest atrocities in human history. When in fact it was something far more sinister than the lack of belief in a god.

Narcissism and greed. Deviant sadism and power in the hands of narcissistic leaders. No one but Stalin, on your little list, has ever been recognized as atheist.

It is the "anger" people like you show tword religion and those that follow it that is relivant.

Anger? No, not anger. Passion maybe, but not anger. The same passion I assume you have for Christ, I have for truth.

Lighthearted by calling all believers stupid?

Tee hee heee...Christians are so cute when they're mad.

See above. I never said that. When? Where? What post? blah blah blah....huh whaaaa?

Stop talking down your nose to me about religion and we can keep it lighthearted but don't ask me to take it easy when your every post is an insult to my life and belief structure.

Its a religious debate bro. Two sides. One for, one against. If ya can't take the heat, gets to steppin god boy.

Hitler and Stalin were Atheists, this is fact, every historian agrees with this fact, who you are to say all people educated in this area are stupid and only you know the truth is really incredible.

Stalin yes. This is verified as fact. Hitler, not so much. There is no proof either way. He was far too mentally ill to pinpoint his exact belief system.

But here is your chance to prove me wrong, name a non-religious group that is in Darfur helping like the religious groups (non-government).

Atheism is persecuted around the world. They don't have an organized business plan and multi-billion dollar infrastructure, like Christians have. Your logic would dictate that since Atheists don't have millions of dollars behind their movement, it must mean they are selfish.
Also, let it not be forgotten. That these world powers like the United States, who have Christian leaders, are standing by and watching the people of Darfur get slaughtered.

Lets discuss the Christian hierarchy of America, and how their compassion has been handed out in recent times.

Rwanda;

The US government was reluctant to involve itself in the "local conflict" in Rwanda, and refused to even refer to it as "Genocide", a decision which President Bill Clinton later came to regret in a Frontline television interview in which he states that he believes if he had sent 5,000 US peacekeepers, more than 500,000 lives could have been saved.

Shame there wasn't any oil there.

The population of Kuwait is 1.2 million nationalist. That means, when we felt so inclined to "save" the "people" (oil) of Kuwait, we did so for the sake of protecting 1.2 million people from Saddam's rule. When in fact, we know now that he just wanted their oil, their money, to pay his troops the money he had promised them for their service.

Flash forward to Rwanda. 800,000 people died. We knew what was happening. The brief was clear. Many more to die. We let what, 70-75% of the entire amount of Kuwait's population numbers die in Rwanda because ....???? No oil?

We're hero's for saving the people (oil) of Kuwait, but we're what for Rwanda?

Flash forward; Darfur ; The ongoing crisis in Darfur has killed more than 335,000 and displaced over 2 million Sudanese since February 2003. As of February 2005 the African Union remains the only international organization willing to send troops into Darfur.

You want to talk about the terrible things that atheist leaders have done in the last century, without being able to substantiate whether or not they were actually atheist. Hows about talking about the terrible things that Christian leaders allow to happen, simply because there is no profit involved?

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

sheik-yerbouti
who you are to say all people educated in this area are stupid

I have never called educated people stupid, and ask that you stop inventing untruths about me.

I've just discovered that Vlad the Implaler - Vlad Tepes - Dracula, was a christian. After just one of many battles, he killed 20,000 prisoners. From the 15 century (medieval period )In part three, we are told this good christian impalled perhaps 100,000. Thats .1 million in Romania ( Europe) in a 50 year period. The entire Medieval period was 4-5 hundred years. Watch this:

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Znyi2mY8eNk"]YouTube - Vlad The Impaler part 2 of 3[/ame]

 

[wez]

The fact is, whatever caused life is the same truth/God for every human being that has ever existed or will ever exist.

So, being that's a fact, there is a 0% chance of any more than 1 of the worlds "religions" being totally correct in their beliefs. There is a good chance that not 1 is totally correct and all could be wrong, which to me seems most logical.

Furthermore, the fact that there is only one truth/God/whatever caused life, what people say, means squat. It changes nothing. No matter how many people believe it or how many people get killed to prove it, it will forever remain the same for all eternity.

So, people should face the facts and realize that every individual person on the entire planet share the same beginning and end and we need to act accordingly.

 

[snafu]

The fact is, whatever caused life is the same truth/God for every human being that has ever existed or will ever exist.

So, being that's a fact, there is a 0% chance of any more than 1 of the worlds "religions" being totally correct in their beliefs. There is a good chance that not 1 is totally correct and all could be wrong, which to me seems most logical.

Furthermore, the fact that there is only one truth/God/whatever caused life, what people say, means squat. It changes nothing. No matter how many people believe it or how many people get killed to prove it, it will forever remain the same for all eternity.

So, people should face the facts and realize that every individual person on the entire planet share the same beginning and end and we need to act accordingly.

But the fact is that the after death is unknown. And man is not content with the unknowing. So we fill the gaps. We pacify our minds with an answer that most of us can correlate with. In my mind I can?t fathom life being a fluke thing. It had to created by a higher power not understandable to the mortal man.

 

[timesjoke]

It still surprises me how blinded some Athiest followers are to their own bull.


Let me give you two examples to help you understand the concept of showing a false face to the world:




1 sheik joins the march of dimes and has fundraisers for their cause. After a year, he steals millions of dollars and runs off to a remote island to live in the lap of luxery.

In this example, does sheik represent the march of dimes true mission in life or did sheik take advantage of the march of dimes to serve his own desires?


2 Jhony goes out with friends and after many drinks and burnt taters, he hooks up with a pretty girl and spends a drunk, stoned wild night with her. The next morning he wakes up to find out that the pretty girl turns out to be a pretty boy.

In this example, did jhony have straight sex because he "thought" the other person was a women or did he have gay sex because the reality is she was a he?



Hitler was an Athiest in reality. He used religion to his own ends at the beginning of his grip on power but his true self was very clear as his actions and frank discussions showed later.


The idea Hitler was a Christian just because he was baptised is completely stupid and juvinile. Is that to say all people can never change if they are baptised? Of course not. Hitler did not need anyone else to give him permission to believe whatever he wanted to believe just like everyone on this forum. To say Hitler was a Christian after the murders and was openly supporting evolution beliefs is the hight of stupidity and clearly based in the Athiests wanting to distance themselves from the truth of how violent and intolerant Athiest followers truly are.



Jhony5, you did call all religios followers stupid and in the same post you just showed, you did it again with a backwards way of saying the same thing:

"I have no idea how an intelligent person can subscribe to ideas that are so obviously wrong"

It is not obviously wrong to everyone, just to you and your fellow Athiest followers.



By the way, nice try with the excuse making but the real reason there are no non-religious people helping others around the world is because they don't want to. Look in any town and who is it running the soup kitchens? There are more help programs run by churches than the government, maybe that should tell you something.


Morals are dropping all over the world and so is religious believers, that is not chance.

The fall of Rome happened right after they attempted to change their faith. By the way, do any of you know how the job of page in modern government got it's name? In late Roman times after their decline to very immoral behavoir was clear, it was a status symbol for politicians to have a young boy lover. That boy lover was called a "page".

 

[wez]

But the fact is that the after death is unknown. And man is not content with the unknowing. So we fill the gaps. We pacify our minds with an answer that most of us can correlate with. In my mind I can’t fathom life being a fluke thing. It had to created by a higher power not understandable to the mortal man.

Things do seem too perfect to be a fluke accident, but that's just it, mortal men a thousand religions over claim to understand exactly what "God" wants them to force everyone but themselves to do. If people were ok understanding it as far as it was meant to be understood and stopped trying to own the truth and use it as a tool to contol people, we'd be a lot better off. There is only one true religion.. the actual truth. I don't need to know it any farther than humanly possible to understand.. it is what it is in life and death. Knowing it's the same for every individual no matter what I or they say is what I think is important. To claim to know post death through eternity and kill people to prove it is about insane as insane gets..


Perhaps death will be just like before you born, nothingness... Nirvana.

Perhaps you get a number a virgins for killing infidels.. Women must not be included in this afterlife paradise.. cept for the virgins.. Poor them

Perhaps there's a Heaven and Hell for those who know Jesus.. Poor Amazon tribes cut off from civilization are doomed..

Perhaps all the wicked will suffer for all eternity in flames, satisfying our thirst for revenge..

Perhaps it will be what it's meant to be, and me not knowing is ok as long as I understand and know with 100% certainty that it will be the same for every human that ever will have existed no matter what it is, and act accordingly.

 

[timesjoke]

You have good points Wez.

That is why I always make the point that God made man, man made the many religions. Man has never made anything that is perfect so obviously any religion man makes is doomed to have mistakes.

But, man's mistakes are not God's mistakes. God has given us basic concepts to live by and even if someone does not like the idea of God, his principles of how to live are still sound from a purely good society basis.


The world is too perfect for it all to be one long series of beneficial accidents after another. Everything must start somewhere and if we keep peeling back layers we discover that science cannot explain the most important things about life. like how living creatures completely changed their DNA to turn into different species when all science says it is impossible for that to happen.

Just the human reproductive system is more complex than every creation man has ever made put together. Add to that the thousands of other complex systems in our bodies and the thousands in each other lifeform and we start to see a level of improbability forming impossible to ignore.

There just is not that much good luck in this world.


Fact, all life comes from other life. There is not one living thing that comes from nothing.

 

[wez]

You have good points Wez.

That is why I always make the point that God made man, man made the many religions. Man has never made anything that is perfect so obviously any religion man makes is doomed to have mistakes.

But, man's mistakes are not God's mistakes. God has given us basic concepts to live by and even if someone does not like the idea of God, his principles of how to live are still sound from a purely good society basis.


The world is too perfect for it all to be one long series of beneficial accidents after another. Everything must start somewhere and if we keep peeling back layers we discover that science cannot explain the most important things about life. like how living creatures completely changed their DNA to turn into different species when all science says it is impossible for that to happen.

Just the human reproductive system is more complex than every creation man has ever made put together. Add to that the thousands of other complex systems in our bodies and the thousands in each other lifeform and we start to see a level of improbability forming impossible to ignore.

There just is not that much good luck in this world.

Fact, all life comes from other life. There is not one living thing that comes from nothing.

Indeed... the cardiovascular system is too perfect.. The way individual cells in our body function together is beyond comprehension. How they form tissues, and organs to make up a human organism.. quite beautiful and too perfect..

And you also hit on the critical point of knowing/not knowing.. The very first "life".. the beginning. If life always comes from life, as we understand that to be true, and has been proven, therein lies the big mystery.. the "creation". It happened, that's all I need to know..

 

[snafu]

Indeed... the cardiovascular system is too perfect.. The way individual cells in our body function together is beyond comprehension. How they form tissues, and organs to make up a human organism.. quite beautiful and too perfect..

And you also hit on the critical point of knowing/not knowing.. The very first "life".. the beginning. If life always comes from life, as we understand that to be true, and has been proven, therein lies the big mystery.. the "creation". It happened, that's all I need to know..

That's so profound! That's what I was getting at. And what about reincarnation? Can our existance be containded to only one life or body? I mean if we come from nowhere why can't that be from another life?

 

[eddo]

Perhaps there's a Heaven and Hell for those who know Jesus.. Poor Amazon tribes cut off from civilization are doomed..

Actually the Bible addresses this in Romans 1:18-20:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

and then this is backed up by your very astute observation:

Indeed... the cardiovascular system is too perfect.. The way individual cells in our body function together is beyond comprehension. How they form tissues, and organs to make up a human organism.. quite beautiful and too perfect..

No those Amazon people don't know about Jesus (and thus cannot accept or reject Him,) but as I understand it they will be judged according to what they do know, and how they use what they know. They can look around them and acknowledge God's creation or they can ignore His place in their lives just like the rest of us can.

 

[wez]

Actually the Bible addresses this in Romans 1:18-20:


and then this is backed up by your very astute observation:



No those Amazon people don't know about Jesus (and thus cannot accept or reject Him,) but as I understand it they will be judged according to what they do know, and how they use what they know. They can look around them and acknowledge God's creation or they can ignore His place in their lives just like the rest of us can.

Truth is simple and plain for everyone to see.. so why all the hostilities over the course of humankind in the name of creation by the very people who claim to know and understand the "absolute truth" Why the need to gather in mass and exert force physically, politically, and manipulatively to further the truth?

Perhaps that's what happens when it aint truth and people need other people to validate it whether they want to or not so they can lie to themselves in comfort and believe they're better than someone else in a profound way and be ok with them being killed, suppressed, enslaved, tortured, controlled, etc... People know the truth when they hear it cause it applies to every human that will ever have existed. Truth doesn't have anything to do with fear, money, and property, but non truth does.

Perhaps the truth gets in the way of some peoples agenda/not truth and they'd rather people just shut up and disappear, as if that would make them right and what they claim true. Not to mention it's the exact opposite of what Jesus teaches.. Love your enemy has become kill your enemy? Who's the real enemy? Oneself...



eddo ( remember my 1st day at tat?) Hahahaha.. love that term..

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

It still surprises me how blinded some Athiest followers are to their own bull.

Well if that isn't the kettle calling the pot black I don't know what is. Theists not only believe bull, they made it all up in the first place ! The truth is that atheists are rational and scientific. Whereas theists are irrational romantics.

Let me give you two examples to help you understand the concept of showing a false face to the world:

This has nothing to do with it, and you know it. Your smoke and mirrors just show you see your argument is flawed.

1/ you are wrong, theists killed more people than atheists ever did, since mankind emerged.
2/ You are almost certainly wrong, neither your god or any other sky-faerie probably exists.


1 sheik joins the march of dimes and has fundraisers for their cause. After a year, he steals millions of dollars and runs off to a remote island to live in the lap of luxery.

In this example, does sheik represent the march of dimes true mission in life or did sheik take advantage of the march of dimes to serve his own desires?


2 Jhony goes out with friends and after many drinks and burnt taters, he hooks up with a pretty girl and spends a drunk, stoned wild night with her. The next morning he wakes up to find out that the pretty girl turns out to be a pretty boy.

In this example, did jhony have straight sex because he "thought" the other person was a women or did he have gay sex because the reality is she was a he?

Smoke and mirrors, what on earth has this to do with the discussion ?

Hitler was an Athiest in reality. He used religion to his own ends at the beginning of his grip on power but his true self was very clear as his actions and frank discussions showed later.

Nonsense. Hitler was a lifelong Christian. He never officially left this cult.

Similarly, The Queen remains the monarch until she dies, orpublicly and officially renounces her position, or abdicates. The president remains the President, until he dies,or publicly and officially renounces his position, or his term expires. And a theist remains one until he dies, or publicly and officially renounces his position, hence becoming, like the others, an apostate. There is no real escape without renunciation

The idea Hitler was a Christian just because he was baptised is completely stupid and juvinile.

Everyone can now see who it is that is calling others stupid. It is you, and not johny5 or myself.

Is that to say all people can never change if they are baptised?

Again you try to put words into my mouth. I did not say that. I said if Hitler ever wanted to be an ex-christian he need to leave the church. Not remain in it. To leave, he needed to renounce his faith publicly and officially. He wold then have become an apostate, and an ex-christian from that moment.

Hitler did not need anyone else to give him permission to believe whatever he wanted to believe just like everyone on this forum.

More twaddle, everybody knows that.

To say Hitler was a Christian after the murders and was openly supporting evolution beliefs is the hight of stupidity

It does not surprise me that Hitler supported both these ideas at the same time at all. Look at the rest of the rubbish theists believe simultaneously.. Like blokes who walk on water, and a couple of buns feeding 5000 people, and people with wings flying around playing harps in heaven. The head guy curing disorders that thousands of years later science cannot find a cure for.And funniest of all, the guy gets up and flies into heaven after having died.

and clearly based in the Athiests wanting to distance themselves from the truth of how violent and intolerant Athiest followers truly are.

More twaddle. History shows your group to be intolerant violent, torturing murderers, more so than Atheists.

Name an Atheist group that comes anywhere near doing what you claim here.

By the way, nice try with the excuse making but the real reason there are no non-religious people helping others around the world is because they don't want to.

My money is on the fact they are there, they just dont crow about it like you and your group do. I'm not sure about this, but I dont think the British Red Cross have any official religious allegiance. There will be many other non religious relief agencies I would think. There are certainly overseas aid programs which send Westerners abroad to help with language, hygiene and building programs. these are certainly non religious.

Look in any town and who is it running the soup kitchens?

And who are running the banks, bars, hotels and malls ? Business people wanting to take advantage of those who may be useful in some way. Usually it is money making in the short term. But it could also be money making in the long term. Like getting those poor people grateful, then guilty, then wanting to pay back some how, then hooked into servitude, then praying and tossing money into the collection bowl later when they get a job. It's a business, nothing more.


There are more help programs run by churches than the government, maybe that should tell you something.

Yes, that your business is successful, and also that there are many impressionable people out there.

Morals are dropping all over the world and so is religious believers, that is not chance.

An opinion. The two may not be connected at all. Just another self serving argument of yours.

The fall of Rome happened right after they attempted to change their faith.

Another coincidence probably.

By the way, do any of you know how the job of page in modern government got it's name? In late Roman times after their decline to very immoral behavoir was clear, it was a status symbol for politicians to have a young boy lover. That boy lover was called a "page".

Yes a very disgusting perversion still popular with Catholic priests today. These vile turds should be crucufied.

 

[snafu]

Yes a very disgusting perversion still popular with Catholic priests today. These vile turds should be crucufied.

Not to be rude but has anybody shown you how to use the quote option? Sure makes it easier on the reader.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

and, you don't have to go back and make 150 edits after the post... of course, if you did some proof-reading before you post... nm... I'm sure you'll figure it out.

 

[snafu]

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