Christianity. Blasphemy. Brainwashing.

[wez]

Those are excuses for errors of an omnipotent being. If so much of the bible is indeed man made, and this is reflected by the errors, then is it not logical to assume that the story of Jesus Christ, his death, his resurrection, Moses all of it, is also man made. Christianity is man made. The concepts that act as its compass are all man made. The whole thing is fabrication. So why can't we do away with this ancient tradition?

Why can't we stop defending the fabrications of ancient men?

Man has a time frame that can be measured by God. That is whats important here. Why was this not the case then? Man wasn't speaking to God, God was, supposedly, speaking to man. Than how is it he has no grasp of the calender. No awareness of human time keeping practices?


The whole point, Tori, is ...........God wasn't telling these men these things. Be honest. They made it up. Mere men created this God, this religion. They made it all up. Just like the books of the bible that were discarded and not included. Its all made up. The evidence is strong.

What is reportedly the word of an infallible being, is seen now as being in obvious error. Enter the excuses, the "reasons" why God was wrong. You can't polish a terd, you just get sh t everywhere.


God didn't tell these men these things. They made it all up.

God, this infallible being, surely would have included a little nugget. Something that man in the future could look at in the text of the bible, and have no choice but to say "How could ancient man have known this".

Instead, what we see is error after error. Nothing of any substance that stands as prophetic at the time, ringing true in the future. Nothing. In all the pages, not a peep of knowledge that would be unknowable to ancient man, but later proven as correct. All we see are warped and fouled science in the bible. Based on mans understanding of things back then. If this is the case, then is it not reasonable to think that the entire concept of the bible is man made.


What reason do you have to believe the bible? Before I die, I want someone to try and answer that, and actually make sense while doing so.

With all the reasons to doubt the bible, where is the reasoning to believe it?

Actually, I think the bible is full of truth as it was ancient mans way of trying to explain their existence as they best could. They didn't try to make a book for people to twist for 2000 years. Hell, Jesus never wrote down a word, yet, what He said was truth as he could best explain it, and I think it was preserved well.

Things about our nature as human beings, and understanding who we are in life, not death. How we should be in life, not death. Why has death and the "afterlife" become the focus of Christianity? It's the opposite of what Jesus spoke about..

I don't believe the stories of the resurrection either, nor do I believe anything said that defies logic or the laws of physics such as creating a ton of food for many people from a couple fish and loafs of bread. The beauty is in his words, not the tall tales of omnipotent power by a genius of a man. Son of God.. Aren't we all the Son of God? Isn't that basically what Jesus was trying to get through everyones thick skull? Love your nieghbor as you love yourself. Forgive others as you would be forgiven. Judge others as you will be judged. We are all the same and equal in anything and everything that means anything. You have no real power over me than that which I give you .. I come from the father and I tell the truth. And like truth tellers throughout history who refuse to shut up, He was killed for it..

 

[Jhony5]

The bible is indeed full of wisdom. Many passages I've read and extracted wise advise from. But it should be understood, these things are more common sense than divine wisdom.

Jesus was a false prophet, put to death for claiming the kingdom of the Jews for his own. A healer and an exorcist, his magic was false. His legend a lie.

No more reason to believe he was the son of god than to believe the same of David Koresh.

Again, for your hatred and attacks to be justified in your mind, you must put words into my mouth.

Its not hatred, TJ.

You said you believed in the bible. Only parts of it or........most? Some? What?
Ask your preacher what parts of the bible that its OK to dismiss. I'd be curious of his response.

 

[wez]

That's the funny thing, Jesus would not claim to be any "better" than David Koresh, or anyone else. Christians have put him on a pedistal. The last place He'd want to be.. He hung with homeless, prostitutes, lepers, and the suffering.. the same people most "Christians" would turn their nose up at, ignore, and exploit.. Way to be.

Jesus would be pissed at who claimed ownership to His name and legacy, and how they twist His words to control and scare people. The truth doesn't need to rely on peoples fear and has no need to control anyone or anything. If any idea or concept needs to be advanced and maintained through fear, threats, and manipulation, it's a lie and doomed to die.

 

[ToriAllen]

Those are excuses for errors of an omnipotent being. If so much of the bible is indeed man made, and this is reflected by the errors, then is it not logical to assume that the story of Jesus Christ, his death, his resurrection, Moses all of it, is also man made. Christianity is man made. The concepts that act as its compass are all man made. The whole thing is fabrication. So why can't we do away with this ancient tradition?

Why can't we stop defending the fabrications of ancient men?

Man has a time frame that can be measured by God. That is whats important here. Why was this not the case then? Man wasn't speaking to God, God was, supposedly, speaking to man. Than how is it he has no grasp of the calender. No awareness of human time keeping practices?


The whole point, Tori, is ...........God wasn't telling these men these things. Be honest. They made it up. Mere men created this God, this religion. They made it all up. Just like the books of the bible that were discarded and not included. Its all made up. The evidence is strong.

What is reportedly the word of an infallible being, is seen now as being in obvious error. Enter the excuses, the "reasons" why God was wrong. You can't polish a terd, you just get sh t everywhere.


God didn't tell these men these things. They made it all up.

God, this infallible being, surely would have included a little nugget. Something that man in the future could look at in the text of the bible, and have no choice but to say "How could ancient man have known this".

Instead, what we see is error after error. Nothing of any substance that stands as prophetic at the time, ringing true in the future. Nothing. In all the pages, not a peep of knowledge that would be unknowable to ancient man, but later proven as correct. All we see are warped and fouled science in the bible. Based on mans understanding of things back then. If this is the case, then is it not reasonable to think that the entire concept of the bible is man made.


What reason do you have to believe the bible? Before I die, I want someone to try and answer that, and actually make sense while doing so.

With all the reasons to doubt the bible, where is the reasoning to believe it?

The Bible is not flawed, it is just written on a very 'dumbed down' level. Like how a Physicist would explain quantum physics to a three years old. The creation of the world takes up one page of a 1086 page book. Some how I get the feeling that is wasn't the most important part of the Bible. The Bible was meant to speak to the hearts of man, so what happened before the creation of man really isn't important. The lack of 'all scientific principles' does not show any limitations of God. It shows the scientific limitations of the physical world. At that point a lot of scientific principles were unknown and could not have been easily explained. I never said the Bible was manmade, I said it was transcribed by man. There is no way to know how God spoke to them. Perhaps in visions? Maybe the man who wrote Genesis had one vision a day for seven days. I don't know. You don't know either. The Bible also says that to God a day is like a thousand years. I am not a literalist, so I see no conflict between the Bible and science. I understand that people are generally stupid, and were even more so back then, so I see no problem with the simplicity of the Bible. I think human history in the Bible is much more accurate than scientific earth history, because the point of the Bible was to talk to man, to point out the faults of man, and to guide man into a better way of life. Quit trying to make it into something it isn't and the conflict disappears.
Why I believe the Bible? There is a lot of wisdom in the Bible and it has affected many lives. There is an experience that can not be explained to those who have not experienced it. You will never have someone properly explain it to you. It would be like explaining an encounter with a ghost to someone who does not believe in ghosts. No explanation would be enough for you.

 

[Jhony5]

The lack of 'all scientific principles' does not show any limitations of God.

I'm not looking for scientific principals. I'm seeing scientific inaccuracies. More accurately, scientific fallacies. Its not what isn't there that is disturbing, it is what can be seen.

There is a lot of wisdom in the Bible and it has affected many lives.

Same with the Star Wars trilogy. Yoda was a very wise man.

Believe in Jesus I do not.

 

[ToriAllen]

I'm not looking for scientific principals. I'm seeing scientific inaccuracies. More accurately, scientific fallacies. Its not what isn't there that is disturbing, it is what can be seen.

Where? Point it out. Give me the verses you are referring to.

Same with the Star Wars trilogy. Yoda was a very wise man.

Believe in Jesus I do not.

Like I said. Nothing anyone can say would convince you because you have already made up your mind.

 

[wez]

I believe what Jesus actually said himself. I don't believe what others say about Jesus in many cases.

 

[Jhony5]

Jesus, who is the Son of God referred to the Old Testament as the "Word of God" which "cannot be broken" (John 10:35). He said, "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished" (Matt. 5:18). Paul added, "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Tim. 3:16). It came "out of the mouth of God" (Matt. 4:4). Although human authors recorded the messages, "prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Matt 4:8: " Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them."

Impossible unless the Earth was flat. Which was the belief at the time.

(Dan 4:11 NRSV) The tree grew great and strong, its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the ends of the whole earth.

A tree could grow to 1,000,000,000 miles in height, and it would still not be viewable from the "whole Earth".

(Lev 11:20-21 NRSV) All winged insects that walk upon all fours are detestable to you.

But among the winged insects that walk on all fours you may eat those that have jointed legs above their feet, with which to leap on the ground.

There are no four legged insects. None. Not one.

(Job 9:6 ) God shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble. ?

Ya see, back they the conventional wisdom was that the Earth was a flat circle that sat upon pillars. The night sky, a dome covering the Earth.


Bahhh there's much more but I'm running short on time. I'll give ya more if you want. But its all in the same spirit. I'm not trying to prove God doesn't exist. Only that God didn't write the bible. It was entirely man made, with no divine intervention.

 

[wez]

I just saw yesterday on National Geographic channel, I think, about the dead sea scrolls and how the church was upset, and attempted to conceal, something about the phrase "Son of God" having a more general meaning, as it was used by Jesus. Anyone know anything about that?

 

[Jhony5]

I just saw yesterday on National Geographic channel, I think, about the dead sea scrolls and how the church was upset, and attempted to conceal, something about the phrase "Son of God" having a more general meaning, as it was used by Jesus. Anyone know anything about that?

They do sh t like that all the time.


Humans have outgrown the need for religion. Now, Christianity especially due to its popularity in our Western capitalist society, religion is often just tradition. We are hearing it more and more, and have already on this very board. Christians saying things like "I don't take the bible literally. Its just a tome of stories to use as a moral compass".

People will say that, but they don't want to talk about the Old Testament, or some of the more violent, absurd and disturbing or just flat out impossible tales from the bible.

I don't get it all really. Sure, killing your fellow man is bad. K, I gotcha. Stealing is reprehensible. Understood. Forgiveness is a key to a progressive and functioning society. Sounds good too. Why do we need to fear an angry God in order to have these morals? Is that necessary? Wasn't necessary for me to teach my daughter. She wins citizenship awards every year at school, and is always one of the best behaved children in the class. I hear compliments all the time, from family, friends and even strangers at the store, on how well behaved and courteous she is.

She does this because she has a loving father that expects this of her. Not because she's afraid of God almighty smoting her into the pits of hell where her flesh will be devoured by serpents. I see that as overkill in the moral installation department.

I say sh t like that too Christians and they usually say in retort "thats not what we teach them".


Yes......it is. Thats exactly what they learn. You may not personally look them in the eyes and say those exact words, but when you raise them religious, they WILL fear the horror that awaits the sinner after death.

Isn't that the crux of religion? What happens to your soul when you die?

 

[eddo]

I don't get it all really. Sure, killing your fellow man is bad. K, I gotcha. Stealing is reprehensible. Understood. Forgiveness is a key to a progressive and functioning society. Sounds good too. Why do we need to fear an angry God in order to have these morals? Is that necessary?

I don't "fear an angry God"...

the more you speak the more it becomes apparent that you have had an unhealthy experience with church, and I would guess have heard your share of "fire and brimstone" services. I apologize for those that have led you to this point in life.

God is not about anger, spite, or wanting us to be scared of Him. He is about Love. Love that desires us to include Him in our lives- lives that He gave us.

 

[Jhony5]

Never even set foot in a Church.



Read the f cking bible. God is vengeance. God is not what you want him to be. Not when you call yourself a Christian. This isn't Wal-Mart. You can't go shopping for your ideal Christian God. He is as advertised. Vengeful. Angry. Murderous. Child killing. Plague spreading horror of a deity.

 

[Jhony5]

I don't "fear an angry God"...

You betta start, buddy. Or he'll swallow your sole if you slip up.


The "loving" Christian God;

Leviticus 20:10 - 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife?with the wife of his neighbor?both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Exodus 21:20-21 ? "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

Colossians 3:22-24 ? "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving."

Deuteronomy 20:10-15 ? When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

Deuteronomy 22:23-27 - If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death?the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

Exodus 35:2 ? " For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."


Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ? "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."

Leviticus 20:13 ? "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."



There's a reason they "rewrote" the bible. The word of God was seen as so horrible once mankind had civilized to some extent, that the church knew this sort of horror wouldn't stand.

Yet and still, your kind still attempt to rearrange the text to make you new God, a sugar coated sweetheart of a God.


Read those verses above. You know how f cked that stuff is. These are the words and thinking of the men that wrote the bible. The men that made your god.

 

[ToriAllen]

Jesus, who is the Son of God referred to the Old Testament as the "Word of God" which "cannot be broken" (John 10:35). He said, "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished" (Matt. 5:18). Paul added, "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Tim. 3:16). It came "out of the mouth of God" (Matt. 4:4). Although human authors recorded the messages, "prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Just because these men were inspired by God does not mean they did not use their own words and understanding to translate his message.

Impossible unless the Earth was flat. Which was the belief at the time.

A tree could grow to 1,000,000,000 miles in height, and it would still not be viewable from the "whole Earth".

There are no four legged insects. None. Not one.

Ya see, back they the conventional wisdom was that the Earth was a flat circle that sat upon pillars. The night sky, a dome covering the Earth.

The first two are easy. They are referring to the civilized world at the time. Kind of like the flood. Why flood the earth when flooding the Mediterranean area will accomplish the needed goal? Not saying the whole of the earth wasn?t flooded, I don?t know, but I?m saying just because the Bible referred to the whole earth, that doesn?t mean it wasn?t referring to the populated areas of the earth.

The second one doesn?t even make sense. Insect is a man made name, not a scientific concept, so how can you know what the original text was referring to? It could easily have been a translation problem. Perhaps ?all fours? was just a figure of speech used at the time of the translation to refer to anything that didn?t walk up right. We have ?figures of speech? nowadays, too.

The King James version states ?and the pillars thereof tremble?. How do you know the original version wasn?t talking about the pillars of the buildings, or that the original referred to pillars at all? Once again it could have been a translation issue.

And time you are translation from one language to another there are going to be subtle differences. There are many words in Hebrew that we do not have an equivalent for in English. It is that way with a lot of languages.

Why do we need to fear an angry God in order to have these morals? Is that necessary? Wasn't necessary for me to teach my daughter.

I never feared an angry God. My children don't fear an angry God either. That wasn't necessary for my parents to raise me and it isn't necessary for me to raise my children. It certainly isn't a necessary part of being a Christian.

I say sh t like that too Christians and they usually say in retort "thats not what we teach them".
Yes......it is. Thats exactly what they learn. You may not personally look them in the eyes and say those exact words, but when you raise them religious, they WILL fear the horror that awaits the sinner after death.

Isn't that the crux of religion? What happens to your soul when you die?

None of the Christians I know live in fear. Most have almost no fear of death at all. Most live in anticipation of the reward, not fear of some kind of punishment. The idea of hell is actually a sort of comfort. The knowledge that the murderers that were never caught or the rapists or child molesters that slipped by the authorities will not escape an ultimate judgment and justice will eventually be done, is comforting. Nope, no fear here.

 

[timesjoke]

The bible is indeed full of wisdom. Many passages I've read and extracted wise advise from. But it should be understood, these things are more common sense than divine wisdom.

They are common sense to you because you were raised in an environment where religious beliefs saturated your life, even if you never followed any religion. As time goes by, that belief structure is getting more diluted, and that is why we see such a large loss of moral beliefs.

If these basic moral values are soo common as you claim, why is it the moral decline is following the religious decline?

Jesus was a false prophet, put to death for claiming the kingdom of the Jews for his own. A healer and an exorcist, his magic was false. His legend a lie.

You can believe what you want but statements like that in a public area are inflamatory and show your true intolerant nature tword religion.

No more reason to believe he was the son of god than to believe the same of David Koresh.

More bad mouthing?

Its not hatred, TJ.

That is the only thing it could be.

You said you believed in the bible. Only parts of it or........most? Some? What?
Ask your preacher what parts of the bible that its OK to dismiss. I'd be curious of his response.

Where did I say I believed in the Bible?

I have said many times that God made man, and man made the many religions.

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

Exodus 35:2 ? " For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

.

Dont Jews have their holy day on the 6 th day and Moslems on the 5th day, that is Saturday and Friday repectively ?

This means that both Jews and Moslems have sinned as they have probably worked on the seventh day, as its just another day to them.

So, if they are to be put to death as it says in your holy tome, then surely the Christian Adolph Hitler is in heaven now for pitilessly doing the Lord's Work, ie murdering the Jews.

The Allies are probably in deep with The Lord for stopping Adolph before he fell upon the Moslems.

 

[eddo]

Never even set foot in a Church.

Interesting. It's good to see that you have no working knowledge of what you are so against. Cool.

Read the f cking bible.

Yep, no hatred or intolerance there...

God is vengeance. God is not what you want him to be. Not when you call yourself a Christian. This isn't Wal-Mart. You can't go shopping for your ideal Christian God. He is as advertised. Vengeful. Angry. Murderous. Child killing. Plague spreading horror of a deity.

a buncha verses

There is a difference between "reading" the bible, and taking the time to "understand" what it is saying. The Bible is more than a book about Jesus:

It is a historical account of creation (how literal is up for debate.)
It is a historical book of early religion and how life was 2000 years ago (and you must take into context how life was back then when reading it.)
It is a cultural instruction book- for those that it was written to. (this is what much of what you posted falls into) -again, you have to take into account to whom it was written to (and why) when reading it. It may not apply to life in exactly the same way today as it did then.
It is an eyewitness account of the life of Jesus.
It is a book of love. The entire book, taken in the context as a whole book, tells of a God that wants nothing more than to be a vital part of the lives of those He created.

Context is key.

I can tell you of how my dad beat me with a belt repeatedly when I was younger and paint a picture of him that will make you think he is an abusive jerk. And when I do, I can totally leave out how it only happened a few times, or how it only happened when I deliberately did something he told me specifically not to. I can leave out how he warned me ahead of time, and I can leave out how we talked and hugged afterwards. and I can leave out how thankful I am to my father now that he had the sense to discipline me, even when I didn't fully understand the benefit it would have for me later in life.

See, you can yank verses here and there that can make God look like a jerk, but when taken in the context of why they were written, whom they were written to, when they were written, and what they are actually saying- they mean something quite different.

 

[ToriAllen]

Never even set foot in a Church.

Read the f cking bible. God is vengeance. God is not what you want him to be. Not when you call yourself a Christian. This isn't Wal-Mart. You can't go shopping for your ideal Christian God. He is as advertised. Vengeful. Angry. Murderous. Child killing. Plague spreading horror of a deity.

You're telling me to read the Bible? Have you ever read it? Going on some anti-Christian website and finding verses that someone has abstracted from the Bible is not the same thing as reading it for yourself. Some things must be put into context. God is merciful, loving, and forgiving. There are many verses which show that.

You betta start, buddy. Or he'll swallow your sole if you slip up.


The "loving" Christian God;
...

Again you are quoting verses from the Old Testiment. This contained the old law. In the new testiment Jesus came and died for our sins, doing away with the covenent of the Old Testiment. That is a major part of Christianity to miss, especially if you are trying to argue against it. In fact, it is kind of the basis for the whole religion. I'll look into the context of the verses when I get time.

There's a reason they "rewrote" the bible. The word of God was seen as so horrible once mankind had civilized to some extent, that the church knew this sort of horror wouldn't stand.

If they rewrote the Bible to cover that up, I wonder how it is you found all those verses.

 

[timesjoke]

See, you can yank verses here and there that can make God look like a jerk, but when taken in the context of why they were written, whom they were written to, when they were written, and what they are actually saying- they mean something quite different.

Beautiful post.

As an extra example, I would ask how our modern literature would be viewed 2,000 years from now.