Europe's Problems Color U.S. Plans to Curb Carbon Gases

[Governor Swill]

On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:18:23 -0700, Captain Compassion
<daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

>>Of course they don't. They have to get something for it. A saleable
>>energy credit would be a nice exchange.
>
>I see. I guess you can always burn them for heat.

Assuming the paper and ink don't contain environmentally unfriendly
chemicals.

Swill

 

[Captain Compassion]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 00:08:31 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
<jturner@localnet.com> wrote:

>Captain Compassion wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 13:00:53 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Captain Compassion wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:49:15 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>>>><jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Captain Compassion wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:54:40 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>>>>>><jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Captain Compassion wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:01:13 -0600, Hugh Gibbons
>>>>>>>><hugh_gibbons@dontsendmeemail.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In article <81ro1319dvu5r5042td8ch66u29v4lngp6@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>Captain Compassion <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 21:37:43 -0600, Hugh Gibbons
>>>>>>>>>><hugh_gibbons@dontsendmeemail.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>In article <fp3m1352impfnclt5q1nl8d4qog2ejukbv@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>Captain Compassion <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 21:56:38 -0600, Hugh Gibbons
>>>>>>>>>>>><hugh_gibbons@dontsendmeemail.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>In article <bLnSh.249$sJ.51@newsfe06.lga>, PagCal <pagcal@runbox.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Captain Compassion wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Europe's Problems Color U.S. Plans to Curb Carbon Gases
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Easy to fix. Just pass a VAT tax on any imports from any country not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>meeting their goals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>The other problem with cap and trade is that the credits are given to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the polluters. The bigger a polluter you are, the more you get issued to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>you free by the government. Instead, the government should issue the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>pollution credits to the populace, and the industries should have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>purchase them from the populace.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>What ever the industries have to pay for the credits the "populace"
>>>>>>>>>>>>will have to pay in increased costs for what ever goods and services
>>>>>>>>>>>>the industry provides.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>That is so. But the point I am making is that the right to breathe
>>>>>>>>>>>clean air as well as the privilege to pollute it belong equally to
>>>>>>>>>>>everyone. Those who choose to exercise the latter privilege should
>>>>>>>>>>>have to pay those who are willing to sell it. They can then sell the
>>>>>>>>>>>produce of it back to the populace, or to whomever is willing to buy
>>>>>>>>>>>it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Energy taxes are regressive.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>What has that to do with pollution credits being handed out on a
>>>>>>>>>per-capita basis?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Energy companies have to pay for credits. Any increase costs are
>>>>>>>>passed on to the consumer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Nonsense. Why is it that profits always seem to disappear from the
>>>>>>>equation when they are not convenient to discuss?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Do you believe that corporations are altruistic? Of course there is
>>>>>>profit. Without profit there is no product.
>>>>>
>>>>>And they can pay for credits out of their profits too.
>>>>
>>>>Won't happen. "Credits" are a cost of doing business just like
>>>>payroll, product and taxes. The populace always pays.
>>>
>>>Who guarantees anyone a certain level of profits?
>>
>> The indivisible hand. Without profit there is no product.
>
>That's odd, Ford is still making cars.
>
For how much longer?

>>>>>>>>Poor consumers pay a higher % of their
>>>>>>>>income for energy. What might be a 1% increase in energy costs for a
>>>>>>>>wealthy person will be a 10% increase for a person with less income.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Then we need to increase funding for LIHEAP and similar programs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The populace has to pay for LIHEAP unless Chavez wants to pay more.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well pony up if you're so concerned about the poor people who are
>>>>>facing such large increases in their energy bills.
>>>>
>>>>I suspect that I all ready have.
>>>
>>>Nah, what you've paid hasn't even covered the war in Iraq. There's
>>>still a several hundred billion deficit.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>Eventually the populace has to pay.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The costs associated with global warming will surely be higher.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not in evidence.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't know how you can see anything with your head so far up your ass.
>>>>
>>>>The only costs associated with CAGW so far is the amount of research
>>>>being done to prove so called "settled science".
>>>
>>>One estimate, from the German Institute for Economic Research (DIW), is
>>>that if nothing is done to restrain greenhouse gas emissions, annual
>>>economic damages could reach US$20 trillion by 2100 (expressed in U.S.
>>>dollars at 2002 prices), or 6 to 8 percent of global economic output at
>>>that time. The same study found that immediate adoption of active
>>>climate protection policies could limit the temperature increase to 2

 

[Captain Compassion]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 04:18:40 -0400, Governor Swill
<governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:32:03 -0700, Captain Compassion
><daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>
>>>Considering the profits the energy industry takes, I seriously doubt
>>>they'll have any problem with paying for credits.
>>>
>>This "credit" thing is a cost of doing business and the cost of doing
>>is always passed on to the consumer.
>
>Exactly. Consumers will then have reason to consume less thus fewer
>credits must be bought.
>
So it's a tax.

>>>In any case, rising energy costs are a good thing. They reduce our
>>>consumption and therefore our importation of energy.
>>>
>>Then I assume that you are not one of those complaining about the high
>>price of gasoline.
>
>You are correct. I don't give a **** if it goes five dollars a gallon
>by Christmas. Everytime gas goes up, traffic gets lighter and people
>pay more attention to their driving.
>
I actually with you on this. Every time gas goes up so does my Exxon
stock.


--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.


"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net

 

[Captain Compassion]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 04:23:55 -0400, Governor Swill
<governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:36:45 -0700, Captain Compassion
><daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>
>>>We all have to do it or we all have to not. Majority rules and I say
>>>let energy costs rise. Gas went up twenty cents around here last
>>>week. Did I not say last year it would start going back up after the
>>>elections?
>>>
>>If you haven't noticed the price of gasoline usually goes up in the
>>spring and summer and down in the fall and winter unless there are
>>circumstances in the oil producing areas that dictate otherwise.
>
>Does it normally go up sixty cents in four weeks?
>
It has before.


--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.


"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net

 

[Jeffrey Turner]

Captain Compassion wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 00:08:31 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>Captain Compassion wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>The indivisible hand. Without profit there is no product.
>>
>>That's odd, Ford is still making cars.
>
> For how much longer?

Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept producing
during, and after, extended periods of losing money. Carbon-trading
will just require adjustments, but won't necessarily all come from the
customers' pockets.

>>>Another estimate eh? I wonder how much that cost? Save you scare
>>>stories for the weak minded.
>>
>>You jumped out of you skin at WMDs.
>
> Not I. I always saw WMDs as an excuse for a military action that had a
> strong geopolitical necessity.

Ah, your Exxon stock again.

--Jeff

--
We can have democracy or we can have
great wealth concentrated in the hands
of the few. We cannot have both.
--Justice Louis Brandeis

 

[Governor Swill]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:02:06 -0700, Captain Compassion
<daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

>>>This "credit" thing is a cost of doing business and the cost of doing
>>>is always passed on to the consumer.
>>
>>Exactly. Consumers will then have reason to consume less thus fewer
>>credits must be bought.
>>
>So it's a tax.

Nope. Cost of doing business. It's no more a tax on the consumer
than the license fees the liquor store down the street has to pass on
the cost of.

>>>>In any case, rising energy costs are a good thing. They reduce our
>>>>consumption and therefore our importation of energy.
>>>>
>>>Then I assume that you are not one of those complaining about the high
>>>price of gasoline.
>>
>>You are correct. I don't give a **** if it goes five dollars a gallon
>>by Christmas. Everytime gas goes up, traffic gets lighter and people
>>pay more attention to their driving.
>>
>I actually with you on this. Every time gas goes up so does my Exxon
>stock.

Everybody wins!

Sieg heil gas prices! http://cagle.com/news/SUVMe/images/summers.gif

Swill

 

[Governor Swill]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
<jturner@localnet.com> wrote:

>Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept producing
>during, and after, extended periods of losing money. Carbon-trading
>will just require adjustments, but won't necessarily all come from the
>customers' pockets.

Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.

Swill

 

[Governor Swill]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:02:40 -0700, Captain Compassion
<daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

>>Does it normally go up sixty cents in four weeks?
>>
>It has before.

Yes, yes it did. And Bush was President then, too. I detect a
pattern here...

Swill

 

[Captain Compassion]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
<jturner@localnet.com> wrote:

>Captain Compassion wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 00:08:31 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>Captain Compassion wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The indivisible hand. Without profit there is no product.
>>>
>>>That's odd, Ford is still making cars.
>>
>> For how much longer?
>
>Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept producing
>during, and after, extended periods of losing money. Carbon-trading
>will just require adjustments, but won't necessarily all come from the
>customers' pockets.
>
>>>>Another estimate eh? I wonder how much that cost? Save you scare
>>>>stories for the weak minded.
>>>
>>>You jumped out of you skin at WMDs.
>>
>> Not I. I always saw WMDs as an excuse for a military action that had a
>> strong geopolitical necessity.
>
>Ah, your Exxon stock again.
>
On 9/11 the terrorists were killing civilians on American soil. Now
terrorists are killing and being killed by US military personnel in
terrorist land. Exxon stock has been a winner for many years. Thank
you for driving and using your computer.


--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.


"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net

 

[Captain Compassion]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:22:15 -0400, Governor Swill
<governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:02:40 -0700, Captain Compassion
><daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>
>>>Does it normally go up sixty cents in four weeks?
>>>
>>It has before.
>
>Yes, yes it did. And Bush was President then, too. I detect a
>pattern here...
>
If an oil president is elected and you are not in oil stocks then you
are insane.



--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.


"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net

 

[Hugh Gibbons]

In article <j9o323tma1upenku2cmh96kncefkvc3c58@4ax.com>,
Governor Swill <governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:18:23 -0700, Captain Compassion
> <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>
> >>Of course they don't. They have to get something for it. A saleable
> >>energy credit would be a nice exchange.
> >
> >I see. I guess you can always burn them for heat.
>
> Assuming the paper and ink don't contain environmentally unfriendly
> chemicals.

My original point was that if the government is going to hand out
pollution credits, they SHOULD NOT be given free to big polluters.
If you want them to have the maximum intended effect, you give them
to the populace at large, which forces the big polluters to pay the
public for them, at rates determined by the market.

 

[Hugh Gibbons]

In article <rjf423t9ecie26me7idni22sqrciosug2a@4ax.com>,
Captain Compassion <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 04:23:55 -0400, Governor Swill
> <governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:36:45 -0700, Captain Compassion
> ><daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
> >
> >>>We all have to do it or we all have to not. Majority rules and I say
> >>>let energy costs rise. Gas went up twenty cents around here last
> >>>week. Did I not say last year it would start going back up after the
> >>>elections?
> >>>
> >>If you haven't noticed the price of gasoline usually goes up in the
> >>spring and summer and down in the fall and winter unless there are
> >>circumstances in the oil producing areas that dictate otherwise.
> >
> >Does it normally go up sixty cents in four weeks?
> >
> It has before.

When a Bush was not President?

 

[Jeffrey Turner]

Governor Swill wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept producing
>>during, and after, extended periods of losing money. Carbon-trading
>>will just require adjustments, but won't necessarily all come from the
>>customers' pockets.
>
> Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.

Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.

--Jeff

--
We can have democracy or we can have
great wealth concentrated in the hands
of the few. We cannot have both.
--Justice Louis Brandeis

 

[Andrealphus]

In News 1325ptvr5vfafd2@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
jturner@localnet.com, typed this:

> Governor Swill wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept producing
>>> during, and after, extended periods of losing money. Carbon-trading
>>> will just require adjustments, but won't necessarily all come from
>>> the customers' pockets.
>>
>> Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>
> Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.
>
> --Jeff

True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you give it a
very literal meaning, every dollar comes from customer's pockets.

 

[Captain Compassion]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:54:39 -0600, Hugh Gibbons
<hugh_gibbons@dontsendmeemail.net> wrote:

>In article <rjf423t9ecie26me7idni22sqrciosug2a@4ax.com>,
> Captain Compassion <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 04:23:55 -0400, Governor Swill
>> <governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:36:45 -0700, Captain Compassion
>> ><daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>>We all have to do it or we all have to not. Majority rules and I say
>> >>>let energy costs rise. Gas went up twenty cents around here last
>> >>>week. Did I not say last year it would start going back up after the
>> >>>elections?
>> >>>
>> >>If you haven't noticed the price of gasoline usually goes up in the
>> >>spring and summer and down in the fall and winter unless there are
>> >>circumstances in the oil producing areas that dictate otherwise.
>> >
>> >Does it normally go up sixty cents in four weeks?
>> >
>> It has before.
>
>When a Bush was not President?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Oil_Embargo

--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.


"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net

 

[Jeffrey Turner]

Andrealphus wrote:

> In News 1325ptvr5vfafd2@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
> jturner@localnet.com, typed this:
>
>
>>Governor Swill wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>>><jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept producing
>>>>during, and after, extended periods of losing money. Carbon-trading
>>>>will just require adjustments, but won't necessarily all come from
>>>>the customers' pockets.
>>>
>>>Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>>
>>Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.
>
> True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you give it a
> very literal meaning, every dollar comes from customer's pockets.

But all my money comes from my employers pockets. And round we go.
That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies don't
increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out of profits,
not out of the customers' pockets.

--Jeff

--
We can have democracy or we can have
great wealth concentrated in the hands
of the few. We cannot have both.
--Justice Louis Brandeis

 

[Governor Swill]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:04:32 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
<jturner@localnet.com> wrote:

>>>Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept producing
>>>during, and after, extended periods of losing money. Carbon-trading
>>>will just require adjustments, but won't necessarily all come from the
>>>customers' pockets.
>>
>> Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>
>Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.

I didn't say anything about profits. I said every dollar comes from
consumer's pockets.

Swill

 

[Governor Swill]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:51:00 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
<jturner@localnet.com> wrote:

>> True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you give it a
>> very literal meaning, every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>
>But all my money comes from my employers pockets. And round we go.
>That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies don't
>increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out of profits,
>not out of the customers' pockets.

But they do increase their prices or they die and stronger businesses
move in.

Swill

 

[Governor Swill]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:20:17 -0700, Captain Compassion
<daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

>>> >Does it normally go up sixty cents in four weeks?
>>> >
>>> It has before.
>>
>>When a Bush was not President?
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Oil_Embargo

It didn't go up sixty cents in a month then.

Swill

 

[Governor Swill]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 04:05:12 -0400, Governor Swill
<governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:20:17 -0700, Captain Compassion
><daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>
>>>> >Does it normally go up sixty cents in four weeks?
>>>> >
>>>> It has before.
>>>
>>>When a Bush was not President?
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Oil_Embargo
>

It didn't go up sixty cents in a month then.

And there's no embargo now.

Swill