Europe's Problems Color U.S. Plans to Curb Carbon Gases

  • Thread starter Captain Compassion
  • Start date
In News 1325sl4dpqu4sef@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
jturner@localnet.com, typed this:

> Andrealphus wrote:
>
>> In News 1325ptvr5vfafd2@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
>> jturner@localnet.com, typed this:
>>
>>
>>> Governor Swill wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>>>> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept
>>>>> producing during, and after, extended periods of losing money.
>>>>> Carbon-trading will just require adjustments, but won't
>>>>> necessarily all come from the customers' pockets.
>>>>
>>>> Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>>>
>>> Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.
>>
>> True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you
>> give it a very literal meaning, every dollar comes from customer's
>> pockets.
>
> But all my money comes from my employers pockets.

Which you trade for your labor.

> And round we go.
> That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies don't
> increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out of
> profits,

Or from cutting costs.

> not out of the customers' pockets.
 
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 04:05:12 -0400, Governor Swill
<governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 20:20:17 -0700, Captain Compassion
><daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>
>>>> >Does it normally go up sixty cents in four weeks?
>>>> >
>>>> It has before.
>>>
>>>When a Bush was not President?
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Oil_Embargo
>
>It didn't go up sixty cents in a month then.
>
>Swill

More if you calculate rise as a % of gas price. More if you if you use
2007 dollars.


--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.


"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
 
On Apr 16, 6:35�am, "Andrealphus" <NOTAREALEMAI...@FAM.NET> wrote:
> In News 1325sl4dpqu4...@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
> jtur...@localnet.com, typed this:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Andrealphus wrote:
>
> >> In News 1325ptvr5vfa...@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
> >> jtur...@localnet.com, typed this:
>
> >>> Governor Swill wrote:
>
> >>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> >>>> <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> Depends on if they adjust.
 
In News 1176740871.753727.251770@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com,, LC at
ellcee@ifrance.com, typed this:

> On Apr 16, 6:35?am, "Andrealphus" <NOTAREALEMAI...@FAM.NET> wrote:
>> In News 1325sl4dpqu4...@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
>> jtur...@localnet.com, typed this:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Andrealphus wrote:
>>
>>>> In News 1325ptvr5vfa...@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
>>>> jtur...@localnet.com, typed this:
>>
>>>>> Governor Swill wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>>>>>> <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept
>>>>>>> producing during, and after, extended periods of losing money.
>>>>>>> Carbon-trading will just require adjustments, but won't
>>>>>>> necessarily all come from the customers' pockets.
>>
>>>>>> Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>>
>>>>> Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.
>>
>>>> True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you
>>>> give it a very literal meaning, every dollar comes from customer's
>>>> pockets.
>>
>>> But all my money comes from my employers pockets.
>>
>> Which you trade for your labor.
>>
>>> And round we go.
>>> That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies
>>> don't increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out
>>> of profits,
>>
>> Or from cutting costs.
> You do not know your ass from a hole in the ground.

Perhaps, but I do know quite a bit about economics, labor costs,
manufacturing overhead, etc... You seem to be having problems though.
 
Governor Swill wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:51:00 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you give it a
>>>very literal meaning, every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>>
>>But all my money comes from my employers pockets. And round we go.
>>That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies don't
>>increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out of profits,
>>not out of the customers' pockets.
>
> But they do increase their prices or they die and stronger businesses
> move in.

You can't just raise your prices whenever your costs go up. Or your
competitors will take all your sales.

--Jeff

--
We can have democracy or we can have
great wealth concentrated in the hands
of the few. We cannot have both.
--Justice Louis Brandeis
 
Governor Swill wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:04:32 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>>Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept producing
>>>>during, and after, extended periods of losing money. Carbon-trading
>>>>will just require adjustments, but won't necessarily all come from the
>>>>customers' pockets.
>>>
>>>Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>>
>>Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.
>
> I didn't say anything about profits. I said every dollar comes from
> consumer's pockets.

But decreased profits come out of investors' pockets, not consumers'.

--Jeff

--
We can have democracy or we can have
great wealth concentrated in the hands
of the few. We cannot have both.
--Justice Louis Brandeis
 
On Apr 16, 1:39�pm, "Andrealphus" <NOTAREALEMAI...@FAM.NET> wrote:
> In News 1176740871.753727.251...@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com,, LC at
> ell...@ifrance.com, typed this:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 16, 6:35?am, "Andrealphus" <NOTAREALEMAI...@FAM.NET> wrote:
> >> In News 1325sl4dpqu4...@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
> >> jtur...@localnet.com, typed this:
>
> >>> Andrealphus wrote:
>
> >>>> In News 1325ptvr5vfa...@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
> >>>> jtur...@localnet.com, typed this:
>
> >>>>> Governor Swill wrote:
>
> >>>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> >>>>>> <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept
> >>>>>>> producing during, and after, extended periods of losing money.
> >>>>>>> Carbon-trading will just require adjustments, but won't
> >>>>>>> necessarily all come from the customers' pockets.
>
> >>>>>> Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>
> >>>>> Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.
>
> >>>> True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets...
 
In News 1176758243.896239.21380@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,, LC at
ellcee@ifrance.com, typed this:

> On Apr 16, 1:39?pm, "Andrealphus" <NOTAREALEMAI...@FAM.NET> wrote:
>> In News 1176740871.753727.251...@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com,, LC at
>> ell...@ifrance.com, typed this:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 16, 6:35?am, "Andrealphus" <NOTAREALEMAI...@FAM.NET> wrote:
>>>> In News 1325sl4dpqu4...@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
>>>> jtur...@localnet.com, typed this:
>>
>>>>> Andrealphus wrote:
>>
>>>>>> In News 1325ptvr5vfa...@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
>>>>>> jtur...@localnet.com, typed this:
>>
>>>>>>> Governor Swill wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>>>>>>>> <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept
>>>>>>>>> producing during, and after, extended periods of losing money.
>>>>>>>>> Carbon-trading will just require adjustments, but won't
>>>>>>>>> necessarily all come from the customers' pockets.
>>
>>>>>>>> Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>>
>>>>>>> Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.
>>
>>>>>> True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you
>>>>>> give it a very literal meaning, every dollar comes from
>>>>>> customer's pockets.
>>
>>>>> But all my money comes from my employers pockets.
>>
>>>> Which you trade for your labor.
>>
>>>>> And round we go.
>>>>> That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies
>>>>> don't increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out
>>>>> of profits,
>>
>>>> Or from cutting costs.
>>> You do not know your ass from a hole in the ground.
>>
>> Perhaps, but I do know quite a bit about economics, labor costs,
>> manufacturing overhead, etc... You seem to be having problems though.
>
> Begone troll.

LOL! Just as I thought, you're a moron.
 
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:05:40 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
<jturner@localnet.com> wrote:

>Governor Swill wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:51:00 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you give it a
>>>>very literal meaning, every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>>>
>>>But all my money comes from my employers pockets. And round we go.
>>>That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies don't
>>>increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out of profits,
>>>not out of the customers' pockets.
>>
>> But they do increase their prices or they die and stronger businesses
>> move in.
>
>You can't just raise your prices whenever your costs go up. Or your
>competitors will take all your sales.
>
But if the cost goes up for all?


--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.


"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
 
In article <1325sl4dpqu4sef@corp.supernews.com>,
Jeffrey Turner <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:

> Andrealphus wrote:
>
> > In News 1325ptvr5vfafd2@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
> > jturner@localnet.com, typed this:
> >
> >
> >>Governor Swill wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> >>><jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept producing
> >>>>during, and after, extended periods of losing money. Carbon-trading
> >>>>will just require adjustments, but won't necessarily all come from
> >>>>the customers' pockets.
> >>>
> >>>Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
> >>
> >>Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.
> >
> > True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you give it
> > a
> > very literal meaning, every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>
> But all my money comes from my employers pockets. And round we go.
> That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies don't
> increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out of profits,
> not out of the customers' pockets.
>
And they can increase their prices only to what the market will bear.
And they always do so, so prices are already at what the market will
bear, so they can't simply jack up prices because their costs went up.
 
In article <cqb823tc3es18buf25ogs2cpubrif0qbk1@4ax.com>,
Captain Compassion <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:05:40 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
>
> >Governor Swill wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:51:00 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> >> <jturner@localnet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you give
> >>>>it a
> >>>>very literal meaning, every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
> >>>
> >>>But all my money comes from my employers pockets. And round we go.
> >>>That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies don't
> >>>increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out of profits,
> >>>not out of the customers' pockets.
> >>
> >> But they do increase their prices or they die and stronger businesses
> >> move in.
> >
> >You can't just raise your prices whenever your costs go up. Or your
> >competitors will take all your sales.
> >
> But if the cost goes up for all?

Then those who figure out how to reduce their costs win the market, in
this case, by modifying their operations so they have to buy fewer
carbon credits.
 
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:05:40 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
<jturner@localnet.com> wrote:

>>>But all my money comes from my employers pockets. And round we go.
>>>That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies don't
>>>increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out of profits,
>>>not out of the customers' pockets.
>>
>> But they do increase their prices or they die and stronger businesses
>> move in.
>
>You can't just raise your prices whenever your costs go up. Or your
>competitors will take all your sales.

Which is exactly what I said. An "I know" would have sufficed.

Swill
 
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:46:18 -0600, Hugh Gibbons
<hugh_gibbons@dontsendmeemail.net> wrote:

>> >You can't just raise your prices whenever your costs go up. Or your
>> >competitors will take all your sales.
>> >
>> But if the cost goes up for all?
>
>Then those who figure out how to reduce their costs win the market, in
>this case, by modifying their operations so they have to buy fewer
>carbon credits.

And if nobody can figure out how to do that, or can agree not to
within their competitive market, the cost goes up for all.

Swill
 
On 16 Apr 2007 09:27:51 -0700, "LC" <ellcee@ifrance.com> wrote:

>> > And round we go.
>> > That's not how the study of economics looks at it. f companies don't
>> > increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out of
>> > profits,
>>
>> Or from cutting costs.
>You do not know your ass from a hole in the ground.

Why do you say that? He's quite right.

Swill
 
On 16 Apr 2007 14:17:23 -0700, "LC" <ellcee@ifrance.com> wrote:

>> >> Or from cutting costs.
>> > You do not know your ass from a hole in the ground.
>>
>> Perhaps, but I do know quite a bit about economics, labor costs,
>> manufacturing overhead, etc... ou seem to be having problems though.
>
>Begone troll.

He's not the troll. He's a regular noting that when a business's
costs go up, they can a) cut costs somewhere else b) take a hit on the
bottom line or c) increase prices.

Swill
 
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:44:01 -0600, Hugh Gibbons
<hugh_gibbons@dontsendmeemail.net> wrote:

>> But all my money comes from my employers pockets. And round we go.
>> That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies don't
>> increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out of profits,
>> not out of the customers' pockets.
>>
>And they can increase their prices only to what the market will bear.
>And they always do so, so prices are already at what the market will
>bear, so they can't simply jack up prices because their costs went up.

Of course they can. And if their competitors follow suit, no harm, no
foul. This is also quite common. An airline announces a price hike
on a route or set of routes and within days most of the industry has
followed suit.

Swill
 
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:06:33 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
<jturner@localnet.com> wrote:

>>>>Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>>>
>>>Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.
>>
>> I didn't say anything about profits. I said every dollar comes from
>> consumer's pockets.
>
>But decreased profits come out of investors' pockets, not consumers'.

And has been pointed out, the business can absorb the cost by cutting
other costs or pass the increase onto the customers, usually with a
little extra. The customers are free to take their business
elsewhere, but the prices might have inflated there too. Or maybe
another business is cheaper and delivers the same product, but has
figured out a cheaper way to get it into the customer's hands.

Law of the jungle. If your business fails, well, see you at the
plant, loser.

Swill
 
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:29:03 -0700, Captain Compassion
<daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

>>It didn't go up sixty cents in a month then.
>>
>>Swill
>
>More if you calculate rise as a % of gas price. More if you if you use
>2007 dollars.

Got me there.

I paid a $2.04 pg on March 23, the weekend I went to Florida. I paid
2.24 when I got there, 2.34 when I topped off to leave on Monday.
Friday, April 13th, I filled up at 2.64 a gallon. It was 2.63 a block
from my house. Next day, the place where I got the 2.04 was 2.61.

57 cents on 2.04, call it 26% in three weeks. I don't remember gas
going up that fast except for this time last year and before that,
Katrina. But there isn't any national emergency this time. No
hurricanes. No terrorist attacks on US soil. No war with Iran
plugging up the Persian Gulf thereby irritating the Chinese. I just
see the Saudis saying, "We want more money for it."

Well, more power to them. It's their oil after all and if they want
a certain price for it, that's their business. Nothing to do with
politics, right?

Except that George has such an intimate relationship with the House of
Saud. Now, what's that all about exactly?

Swill
 
lorad474@cs.com wrote:
> On Apr 8, 10:06 pm, Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net>
> wrote:
>> Europe's Problems Color U.S. Plans to Curb Carbon Gases
>>
>> By Steven Mufson
>> Washington Post Staff Writer
>> Monday, April 9, 2007; A01
>>
>> Wout Kusters, director of a manufacturing plant in the Dutch lowlands,
>> knows something the U.S. Congress needs to know. So does Gervais
>> Pruvost, a laborer in a small cement plant in northern France. So does
>> just about every German homeowner.
>>
>
> The EU has exceeded its planned Kiyoto limits. Exceeded as in
> 'failed'. For the last two years.
>
> But the true problem is not with the well-intentioned do-gooder
> socialist smurfs of the EU (or possibly in the US for that matter)..
>
> No.. the problem is with the globalizing impetus of the WTO, NAFTA,
> and other globalizing regimes.
> Because the problem is that non-restricted Kiyoto signatories have
> little or no limits upon the amount of pollution that they are allowed
> to emit.
>
> China - which now produces and exports more than the US (!) has NO
> Kiyoto assigned pollution limits.
>
> China also plans to start up over 800 new coal-fired power plants in
> the next few years.
>
> China plans to do this even though researchers now state that the
> particulate pollution cloud (even now) coming out of red china can on
> occassion cover half the distance of the Pacific Ocean to north
> america - and is causing excessive cloud formation resulting in
> significant weather modification.
>
> If china fires up those 800 new plants, the situation will get even
> worse.
>
> Summary:
> The current globalization schemes set economic restrictions against
> western industry (western standards of living) - while it gives
> polluters china and india free reign to generate as much crap as they
> wish. And they do.. to everyone else's detriment.
>
>
China can be brought to the table easy - just implement a VAT tax for
everything they try to import. The VAT tax would be equal to their
compliance to Koyoto times two. Therefore, they would have a strong
economic interest to getting on board.


>
>
>
 
On Apr 16, 5:46�pm, "Andrealphus" <NOTAREALEMAI...@FAM.NET> wrote:
> In News 1176758243.896239.21...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,, LC at
> ell...@ifrance.com, typed this:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 16, 1:39?pm, "Andrealphus" <NOTAREALEMAI...@FAM.NET> wrote:
> >> In News 1176740871.753727.251...@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com,, LC at
> >> ell...@ifrance.com, typed this:
>
> >>> On Apr 16, 6:35?am, "Andrealphus" <NOTAREALEMAI...@FAM.NET> wrote:
> >>>> In News 1325sl4dpqu4...@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
> >>>> jtur...@localnet.com, typed this:
>
> >>>>> Andrealphus wrote:
>
> >>>>>> In News 1325ptvr5vfa...@corp.supernews.com,, Jeffrey Turner at
> >>>>>> jtur...@localnet.com, typed this:
>
> >>>>>>> Governor Swill wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:25:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> >>>>>>>> <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> Depends on if they adjust. Plenty of companies have kept
> >>>>>>>>> producing during, and after, extended periods of losing money.
> >>>>>>>>> Carbon-trading will just require adjustments, but won't
> >>>>>>>>> necessarily all come from the customers' pockets.
>
> >>>>>>>> Every dollar comes from customer's pockets.
>
> >>>>>>> Nonsense. Sometimes profits decrease.
>
> >>>>>> True, but the profits come from the customer's pockets... If you
> >>>>>> give it a very literal meaning, every dollar comes from
> >>>>>> customer's pockets.
>
> >>>>> But all my money comes from my employers pockets.
>
> >>>> Which you trade for your labor.
>
> >>>>> And round we go.
> >>>>> That's not how the study of economics looks at it. If companies
> >>>>> don't increase their prices to pay for something then it comes out
> >>>>> of profits,
>
> >>>> Or from cutting costs.
> >>> You do not know your ass from a hole in the ground.
>
> >> Perhaps, but I do know quite a bit about economics, labor costs,
> >> manufacturing overhead, etc... You seem to be having problems though.
>
> > Begone troll.
>
> LOL!
 

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