FOUNDATION OF CHRISTIANITY

[Pastor Frank]

"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 19, 3:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables, contradictions,
>> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny,
>> >destruction,
>> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
>> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and
>> >totally
>> >untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
>>
>> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
>> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
>> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
>> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
>> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There is a
>> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
>> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from the
>> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
>> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
>
> As an atheist who loves literaure, I had to read the Bible in order to
> understand all the references. This is just my opinion, but if you're
> telling me the Bible is good fiction (I agree that it's fiction) then
> Celine DIon is a good singer. I realize it's ancient writing, and as
> such holds a certain historical interest, but I think the writing is
> generally strident, contradictory, repetitive, and boring when it's
> not psychedelically weird. I think there are many examples of earlier
> and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
> Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>
How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary Philosophy of
life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?



--
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[Pastor Frank]

"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>
> So if the Bible isn't accurate why base your life on it?
>
Tell us what "accuracy" you need to implement Christ's directives below.

Pastor Frank

Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
Jesus in John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command..."



--
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[Pastor Frank]

"flightlessvacuum" <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171933682.679541.40990@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 20, 1:54 pm, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think there are many examples of earlier
>> and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>> Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>
> I really enjoyed studying the works of Homer in my youth, far superior
> to any of the fiction and fables contained within the bible.
>
Are you trying to compare a work of fiction with ancient Semitic social
and moral philosophy? Perhaps you can't even see the difference, can you?



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[Pastor Frank]

"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:s0jkt2h3me6gdgm1pa4jbjq6rt579uqo76@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:46:26 -0500, Padraic Brown
> <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
>>the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
>>trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
>>You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>
> And you are a deliberately nasty, bigoted liar who knows that atheism
> isn't a religion and doesn't proselytise.
> Shove your crucifix up your ass and bugger yourself with it.
>
Atheist rebuttals always end in violence, don't they?



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[Pastor Frank]

<thedeviliam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171945953.785065.293000@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 19, 6:38 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Christians totally base their faith on the Bibles.
>>
>> There isn't much else to go on. What exactly is your point?
>
> Do Christians really totally based their beliefs on the Bible? Most of
> them haven't even read the damn thing, and the ones that have ignore
> whatever they don't like. You can't "totally" base your beliefs on
> something that contradicts itself.
>
Categorical in your condemnation, aren't you? Sorry to hear that
Christians don't live up to your exalted expectations, but then I bet nobody
does. The Bible is ancient Hebrew social and moral philosophy, written
mostly in the poetic format. Contradictions are mostly the result of one's
inability to interpret constructively. Some excel in that, for that is what
they are looking for and what's right escapes them completely. Are you that
kind of person?



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[Pastor Frank]

"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98DCE1DD1BC02vicman@66.250.146.128...
> One fine day in alt.atheism, Padraic Brown <elemtilas@yahoo.com> bloodied
> us up with this:
>>
>> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
>> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
>> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
>> usually engaging stories.
>
> As we've discovered through rational thought, however, the good teachings
> of the bible simply parrot common sense. Then these teachings are
> proclaimed available only to believers, demoralizing non-believers for no
> reason other than non-belief.
> Religious morality can easily be illustrated through one simple
> experiment.
> If you want to observe firsthand the morality of any given human being,
> give him power over others.
>
We would rather first know what basis a person has for his moral
convictions, for what you call "common sense" isn't "common" at all. Good
and evil are opinions, and will always remain opinions rather than facts. It
all depends on whose opinions you consider worthy to base your life on. Only
atheists think, that their own opinion is the only valid one.



--
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[Otto Bahn]

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote

> >>Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
> >>the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
> >>trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
> >>You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
> >
> > And you are a deliberately nasty, bigoted liar who knows that atheism
> > isn't a religion and doesn't proselytise.
> > Shove your crucifix up your ass and bugger yourself with it.
> >
> Atheist rebuttals always end in violence, don't they?

I love a crusade.

--oTTo--

 

[Neil Kelsey]

On Feb 20, 11:55 pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Feb 19, 3:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables, contradictions,
> >> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny,
> >> >destruction,
> >> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
> >> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and
> >> >totally
> >> >untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
>
> >> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
> >> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
> >> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
> >> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
> >> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There is a
> >> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
> >> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from the
> >> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
> >> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
>
> > As an atheist who loves literaure, I had to read the Bible in order to
> > understand all the references. This is just my opinion, but if you're
> > telling me the Bible is good fiction (I agree that it's fiction) then
> > Celine DIon is a good singer. I realize it's ancient writing, and as
> > such holds a certain historical interest, but I think the writing is
> > generally strident, contradictory, repetitive, and boring when it's
> > not psychedelically weird. I think there are many examples of earlier
> > and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
> > Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>
> How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary Philosophy of
> life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?

I didn't miss it, Frank, I just wan't impressed. Jesus seemed like a
prissy ***** to me. And read Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not A
Christian" for some criticisms into the character of Jesus Christ, he
said it far better than I ever could. Give me the philosophy of life
explained and demonstrated by Shakespeare any day.

And I do love literature. How can you bury your nose in the Bible and
never experience the writings of Jane Austen, Laurence Sterne,
Fielding, TS Eliot, Homer, Faulkner, and plenty of other brilliant
authors far superior to the anally retentive goatherders with an
agenda who conjured up the Bible?

 

[Neil Kelsey]

On Feb 21, 3:22 am, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
> "flightlessvacuum" <flightlessvacuums...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1171933682.679541.40990@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...> On Feb 20, 1:54 pm, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I think there are many examples of earlier
> >> and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
> >> Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>
> > I really enjoyed studying the works of Homer in my youth, far superior
> > to any of the fiction and fables contained within the bible.
>
> Are you trying to compare a work of fiction with ancient Semitic social
> and moral philosophy? Perhaps you can't even see the difference, can you?

Follow the thread back, Frank. It was Padraic Brown (another theist)
who was comparing the Bible to works of literature.

 

[Neil Kelsey]

On Feb 21, 3:19 am, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>
> > So if the Bible isn't accurate why base your life on it?
>
> Tell us what "accuracy" you need to implement Christ's directives below.
>
> Pastor Frank
>
> Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
> another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
> Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
> if ye have love one to another.
> Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
> as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
> his life for his friends.
> Jesus in John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command..."

I need evidence that god existed, and that Jesus was divine, and
evidence that the stories in the Bible are fact, otherwise I'll just
continue to try to get along with people without the threats from a
suipernatural being. And if we all managed to do this, then there
would be no need for anyone to lay down their lives. Why are you so
obsessed about that?

 

[Bill M]

"Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:67kkt255767b21pl9a9p2rgd76e0n3gfoa@4ax.com...
> On 19 Feb 2007 16:35:32 -0800, "flightlessvacuum"
> <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Feb 20, 12:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
>>> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
>>> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
>>> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>>
>>Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
>
> Apples and oranges, really. A real atheist wouldn't even engage in the
> above kind of nonsense. There would be no need for him to continually
> press the point that there is no God nor would there be a need for him
> to continually try to disparage the beliefs of others. For Bill M, his
> "atheism" is faith of a curious kind.
>
> Padraic

In your idiotic 'opinion' just like your religion!

 

[Mettas Mother]

Simple ! Go to Iraq and fight the war!

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:45dc69c2$0$16402$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> > On Feb 19, 3:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables,
contradictions,
> >> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny,
> >> >destruction,
> >> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
> >> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and
> >> >totally
> >> >untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
> >>
> >> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
> >> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
> >> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
> >> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
> >> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There is a
> >> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
> >> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from the
> >> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
> >> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
> >
> > As an atheist who loves literaure, I had to read the Bible in order to
> > understand all the references. This is just my opinion, but if you're
> > telling me the Bible is good fiction (I agree that it's fiction) then
> > Celine DIon is a good singer. I realize it's ancient writing, and as
> > such holds a certain historical interest, but I think the writing is
> > generally strident, contradictory, repetitive, and boring when it's
> > not psychedelically weird. I think there are many examples of earlier
> > and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
> > Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
> >
> How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary Philosophy of
> life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>

 

[Christopher A.Lee]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:29:04 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>
>"Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:67kkt255767b21pl9a9p2rgd76e0n3gfoa@4ax.com...
>> On 19 Feb 2007 16:35:32 -0800, "flightlessvacuum"
>> <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 20, 12:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
>>>> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
>>>> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
>>>> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>>>
>>>Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
>>
>> Apples and oranges, really. A real atheist wouldn't even engage in the
>> above kind of nonsense. There would be no need for him to continually
>> press the point that there is no God nor would there be a need for him
>> to continually try to disparage the beliefs of others. For Bill M, his
>> "atheism" is faith of a curious kind.
>>
>> Padraic
>
>In your idiotic 'opinion' just like your religion!

He's paranoid. We don't "disparage the beliefs of others". Like most
theists he has neither the common sense nor courtesy to keep his
beliefs to himself.

 

[Dubh Ghall]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:22:21 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

>"flightlessvacuum" <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1171933682.679541.40990@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 20, 1:54 pm, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think there are many examples of earlier
>>> and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>>> Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>>
>> I really enjoyed studying the works of Homer in my youth, far superior
>> to any of the fiction and fables contained within the bible.
>>
> Are you trying to compare a work of fiction with ancient Semitic social
>and moral philosophy?

Yea; What's the difference?

Are you saying that Homer's work contained no social and moral
philosophy?

>Perhaps you can't even see the difference, can you?

In truth, no. Both are mythology, both make social and moral comment
about the time and place.
Both use real people and places, to make the story more realistic

Homer is geographically more accurate, and contains no contradictions.

 

[Dubh Ghall]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:51:54 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

>"flightlessvacuum" <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1171931732.535573.172060@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 20, 12:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
>>> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
>>> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
>>> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>>
>> Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
>>
> Are you trying to quote Existentialist Sartre?

Only to the extent that stating, "I own a sword", is trying to quote
from the bible.


>This is what he said: To
>say one does not believe in God is like saying one does not believe in
>baldness.


Cite?

 

[Dubh Ghall]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:55:56 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

> How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary Philosophy of
>life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?


Good literature is consistent, the bible is not.

Besides; What kind of philosophy advocates killing everybody who
doesn't like your philosophy?

 

[Dubh Ghall]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:19:47 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

>"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> So if the Bible isn't accurate why base your life on it?
>>
> Tell us what "accuracy" you need to implement Christ's directives below.
>
Straw man.

>Pastor Frank
>
> Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
>another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
> Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
>if ye have love one to another.
> Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
>as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
>his life for his friends.
> Jesus in John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command..."

 

[double helix]

I need evidence that god existed, and that Jesus was divine, and
evidence that the stories in the Bible are fact, otherwise I'll just
continue to try to get along with people without the threats from a
suipernatural being. And if we all managed to do this, then there
would be no need for anyone to lay down their lives. Why are you so
obsessed about that?

Because the alternative, no life after death and no forgivness for his sins which, probably in his eyes and to us if we knew about them, are great, is unthinkable. Some people need to be reasured they will live on.

 

[Dubh Ghall]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:19:43 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

><thedeviliam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1171945953.785065.293000@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 19, 6:38 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Christians totally base their faith on the Bibles.
>>>
>>> There isn't much else to go on. What exactly is your point?
>>
>> Do Christians really totally based their beliefs on the Bible? Most of
>> them haven't even read the damn thing, and the ones that have ignore
>> whatever they don't like. You can't "totally" base your beliefs on
>> something that contradicts itself.
>>
> Categorical in your condemnation, aren't you?

No more than you are in yours.


> Sorry to hear that
>Christians don't live up to your exalted expectations,

If our expectations of what xtians are, is over rated, it is only
because people like you keep telling us about what wonderful people,
xtianity makes you.

> but then I bet nobody does.

Far from correct. The only people who fail to measure up, are people
who exalt themselves; people like you.


>The Bible is ancient Hebrew social and moral philosophy, written
>mostly in the poetic format.

According to whom?


>Contradictions are mostly the result of one's inability to interpret
>constructively.

Constructively?

You mean, we fail to make it up as we go along, to make it say what
you want it to say.


>Some excel in that, for that is what they are looking for and what's
>right escapes them completely. Are you that kind of person?

A totally meaningless word salad.

 

[Dubh Ghall]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 00:27:48 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

>"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns98DCE1DD1BC02vicman@66.250.146.128...
>> One fine day in alt.atheism, Padraic Brown <elemtilas@yahoo.com> bloodied
>> us up with this:
>>>
>>> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
>>> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
>>> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
>>> usually engaging stories.
>>
>> As we've discovered through rational thought, however, the good teachings
>> of the bible simply parrot common sense. Then these teachings are
>> proclaimed available only to believers, demoralizing non-believers for no
>> reason other than non-belief.
>> Religious morality can easily be illustrated through one simple
>> experiment.
>> If you want to observe firsthand the morality of any given human being,
>> give him power over others.
>>
> We would rather first know what basis a person has for his moral
>convictions, for what you call "common sense" isn't "common" at all.

No doubt. Then if it isn't your version of xtianity guides their
morality, you can condemn it out of hand, without ever having to look
at it.


> Good and evil are opinions, and will always remain opinions rather than facts.

Good and evil are subjectives, mere matters of opinion, and always
will be.

Good is what gets you what you want, and bad is what prevents you.

> It all depends on whose opinions you consider worthy to base your life on.

Close enough.



>Only atheists think, that their own opinion is the only valid one.

The truth is a totally alien to your morality; Aint it Frank?