FOUNDATION OF CHRISTIANITY

On 20 Feb 2007 23:23:02 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:

>
>
>Padraic Brown wrote:
>
>> On 19 Feb 2007 16:35:32 -0800, "flightlessvacuum"
>> <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Feb 20, 12:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
>> >> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
>> >> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
>> >> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>> >
>> >Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
>>
>> Apples and oranges, really. A real atheist wouldn't even engage in the
>> above kind of nonsense. There would be no need for him to continually
>> press the point that there is no God nor would there be a need for him
>> to continually try to disparage the beliefs of others. For Bill M, his
>> "atheism" is faith of a curious kind.
>
>.......as long as religionists insist on killing each other together with
>inoocent bystanders
>in the process of 'protecting' their myths atheists will be around.

Non sequitur. War and violence predate both atheism and theism. War is
about power and very instinctual things like territorialism, not
religions or gods.

Padraic

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
On 20 Feb 2007 23:20:03 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:

>
>
>Padraic Brown wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables, contradictions,
>> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny, destruction,
>> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
>> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and totally
>> >untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
>>
>> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
>> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
>> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
>> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
>> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There is a
>> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
>> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from the
>> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
>> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
>>
>> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
>> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
>> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
>> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>
>If you want to wax lyrical about verbiage,
>read Emmett's final line - it speaks volumes
>
>"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is
>human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind
>cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an old
>religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and never has
>been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in its
>simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
>[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]

Sure, all warm and fuzzy. All atheism _really_ is is the lack of
belief in God. Quite simple, really. Take an atheist and a theist --
they can be equally endowed with "human concern" and "intellectual
honesty" and "sane in a world of madness". The above does show that
people can take comfort in a wide variety of beliefs.

It also shows us that atheists have _not_ learned to let go of
egocentrism and sense of superiority that have, unhappily, attached to
religion. How arrogant is the position that one person can claim a
superior human concern, just because he does not believe in God!

Padraic


--
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On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:18:07 -0500, Christopher A.Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:29:04 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:67kkt255767b21pl9a9p2rgd76e0n3gfoa@4ax.com...
>>> On 19 Feb 2007 16:35:32 -0800, "flightlessvacuum"
>>> <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Feb 20, 12:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
>>>>> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
>>>>> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
>>>>> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>>>>
>>>>Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
>>>
>>> Apples and oranges, really. A real atheist wouldn't even engage in the
>>> above kind of nonsense. There would be no need for him to continually
>>> press the point that there is no God nor would there be a need for him
>>> to continually try to disparage the beliefs of others. For Bill M, his
>>> "atheism" is faith of a curious kind.
>>>
>>> Padraic
>>
>>In your idiotic 'opinion' just like your religion!
>
>He's paranoid. We don't "disparage the beliefs of others".

Paranoid? THat's a laugh. Go study the definition of "paranoid" to
learn what it really means. As a group, "atheists" _do_ disparage the
beliefs of others. You yourself provide a good example of this. Review
how many times the beliefs of others have been called "delusional" or
"moronic" in the last couple weeks.

> Like most
>theists he has neither the common sense nor courtesy to keep his
>beliefs to himself.

You have absolutely no clue what my beliefs are, apart from the few
that have been appropriate to the discussion. I really don't recall
ever discussing them with you. If you don't like people discussing
their beliefs, you don't have to read these kinds of threads.

Padraic

--
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the ****ing God loves St . Mary' s **** .


On Feb 22, 7:45 am, Dubh Ghall <p...@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:51:54 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
>
> <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
> >"flightlessvacuum" <flightlessvacuums...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1171931732.535573.172060@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Feb 20, 12:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
> >>> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
> >>> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
> >>> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>
> >> Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
>
> > Are you trying to quote Existentialist Sartre?
>
> Only to the extent that stating, "I own a sword", is trying to quote
> from the bible.
>
> >This is what he said: To
> >say one does not believe in God is like saying one does not believe in
> >baldness.
>
> Cite?
 
Neil Kelsey wrote:

> On Feb 20, 11:55 pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
> > "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 19, 3:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net>
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > >> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables, contradictions,
> > >> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny,
> > >> >destruction,
> > >> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
> > >> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and
> > >> >totally
> > >> >untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
> >
> > >> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
> > >> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
> > >> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
> > >> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
> > >> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There is a
> > >> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
> > >> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from the
> > >> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
> > >> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
> >
> > > As an atheist who loves literaure, I had to read the Bible in order to
> > > understand all the references. This is just my opinion, but if you're
> > > telling me the Bible is good fiction (I agree that it's fiction) then
> > > Celine DIon is a good singer. I realize it's ancient writing, and as
> > > such holds a certain historical interest, but I think the writing is
> > > generally strident, contradictory, repetitive, and boring when it's
> > > not psychedelically weird. I think there are many examples of earlier
> > > and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
> > > Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
> >
> > How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary Philosophy of
> > life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?
>
> I didn't miss it, Frank, I just wan't impressed. Jesus seemed like a
> prissy ***** to me. And read Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not A
> Christian" for some criticisms into the character of Jesus Christ, he
> said it far better than I ever could. Give me the philosophy of life
> explained and demonstrated by Shakespeare any day.

The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental
despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people
in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all
the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human
beings. We ought to stand up and look the world frankly in the face. We ought to
make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all
it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages.
A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a
regretful hankering after the past, or a fettering of the free intelligence by
the words uttered long ago by ignorant men.

Bertrand Russell (W.N.C.p23)


>
>
> And I do love literature. How can you bury your nose in the Bible and
> never experience the writings of Jane Austen, Laurence Sterne,
> Fielding, TS Eliot, Homer, Faulkner, and plenty of other brilliant
> authors far superior to the anally retentive goatherders with an
> agenda who conjured up the Bible?
 
Pastor Frank <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:


> How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary Philosophy of
> life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?

Sorta like the "Peanuts" cartoons...
 
Pastor Frank <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

> > And you are a deliberately nasty, bigoted liar who knows that atheism
> > isn't a religion and doesn't proselytise.
> > Shove your crucifix up your ass and bugger yourself with it.
> >
> Atheist rebuttals always end in violence, don't they?

When you're involved in the discussion they do. Why do you suppose that
is?
 
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:45dc69c2$0$16402$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 19, 3:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables,
>>> >contradictions,
>>> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny,
>>> >destruction,
>>> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
>>> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and
>>> >totally
>>> >untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
>>>
>>> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
>>> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
>>> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
>>> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
>>> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There is a
>>> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
>>> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from the
>>> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
>>> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
>>
>> As an atheist who loves literaure, I had to read the Bible in order to
>> understand all the references. This is just my opinion, but if you're
>> telling me the Bible is good fiction (I agree that it's fiction) then
>> Celine DIon is a good singer. I realize it's ancient writing, and as
>> such holds a certain historical interest, but I think the writing is
>> generally strident, contradictory, repetitive, and boring when it's
>> not psychedelically weird. I think there are many examples of earlier
>> and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>> Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>>
> How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary Philosophy of
> life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


There is Great Wisdom in the Teachings of Jesus but they are far from being
original nor even new, but are statements of Universal Wisdom. All the
faiths of the World contain a portion of the Divine Truth and none has all
of it.
 
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:45dc69ce$0$16402$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "flightlessvacuum" <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1171933682.679541.40990@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 20, 1:54 pm, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think there are many examples of earlier
>>> and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>>> Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>>
>> I really enjoyed studying the works of Homer in my youth, far superior
>> to any of the fiction and fables contained within the bible.
>>
> Are you trying to compare a work of fiction with ancient Semitic social
> and moral philosophy? Perhaps you can't even see the difference, can you?
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


Being as the Bible is mostly a series of Books of Fiction the comparison is
correct. Myth is the religious fiction of the People who write it.
 
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:45dc69dc$0$16402$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> <thedeviliam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1171945953.785065.293000@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 19, 6:38 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Christians totally base their faith on the Bibles.
>>>
>>> There isn't much else to go on. What exactly is your point?
>>
>> Do Christians really totally based their beliefs on the Bible? Most of
>> them haven't even read the damn thing, and the ones that have ignore
>> whatever they don't like. You can't "totally" base your beliefs on
>> something that contradicts itself.
>>
> Categorical in your condemnation, aren't you? Sorry to hear that
> Christians don't live up to your exalted expectations, but then I bet
> nobody does. The Bible is ancient Hebrew social and moral philosophy,
> written mostly in the poetic format. Contradictions are mostly the result
> of one's inability to interpret constructively. Some excel in that, for
> that is what they are looking for and what's right escapes them
> completely. Are you that kind of person?
>

Frank first off only the so called Old Testament was written in Hebrew and
it is never meant to be read literally. With Ancient Hebrew there is no
precise meaning to the words and in fact there is an old saying that Torah
speaks to each Generation anew and it is up to those who read it to discover
the meaning within. Now the New Testament was written in Greek a language
that is not really suited to transmitting Divine Wisdom and is thus more
precisely translated, but even here people have managed to get it wrong
because of the changes made to the texts over the Centuries by both the
Scribes and the Church Fathers that did not like what was written when it
did not go with what they believed.
 
Pastor Frank wrote:

> "flightlessvacuum" <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1171931732.535573.172060@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> > On Feb 20, 12:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
> >> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
> >> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
> >> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
> >
> > Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
> >
> Are you trying to quote Existentialist Sartre? This is what he said: To
> say one does not believe in God is like saying one does not believe in
> baldness.

no hair, no god

>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
Padraic Brown wrote:

> On 20 Feb 2007 23:20:03 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Padraic Brown wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables, contradictions,
> >> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny, destruction,
> >> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
> >> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and totally
> >> >untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
> >>
> >> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
> >> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
> >> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
> >> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
> >> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There is a
> >> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
> >> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from the
> >> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
> >> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
> >>
> >> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
> >> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
> >> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
> >> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
> >
> >If you want to wax lyrical about verbiage,
> >read Emmett's final line - it speaks volumes
> >
> >"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is
> >human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind
> >cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an old
> >religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and never has
> >been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in its
> >simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
> >[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
>
> Sure, all warm and fuzzy. All atheism _really_ is is the lack of
> belief in God. Quite simple, really. Take an atheist and a theist --
> they can be equally endowed with "human concern" and "intellectual
> honesty" and "sane in a world of madness". The above does show that
> people can take comfort in a wide variety of beliefs.
>
> It also shows us that atheists have _not_ learned to let go of
> egocentrism and sense of superiority that have, unhappily, attached to
> religion. How arrogant is the position that one person can claim a
> superior human concern, just because he does not believe in God!

A nice picture of average regilionist qalities you paint there Pediatric,
I wonder where the inspiration came from ?

>
>
> Padraic
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
"Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:ca2dnbWUv_62oEDYnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@adelphia.com...
> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:45dc69c2$0$16402$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Feb 19, 3:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables,
>>>> >contradictions,
>>>> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny,
>>>> >destruction,
>>>> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
>>>> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and
>>>> >totally
>>>> >untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
>>>>
>>>> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
>>>> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
>>>> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
>>>> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
>>>> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There is a
>>>> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
>>>> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from the
>>>> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
>>>> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
>>>
>>> As an atheist who loves literaure, I had to read the Bible in order to
>>> understand all the references. This is just my opinion, but if you're
>>> telling me the Bible is good fiction (I agree that it's fiction) then
>>> Celine DIon is a good singer. I realize it's ancient writing, and as
>>> such holds a certain historical interest, but I think the writing is
>>> generally strident, contradictory, repetitive, and boring when it's
>>> not psychedelically weird. I think there are many examples of earlier
>>> and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>>> Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>>
>> How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary Philosophy of
>> life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?
>
> There is Great Wisdom in the Teachings of Jesus but they are far from
> being original nor even new, but are statements of Universal Wisdom. All
> the faiths of the World contain a portion of the Divine Truth and none has
> all of it.
Christ isn't about "Divine Truth" nor "Universal Wisdom" etc. etc.
Christ is about the quality of one's actions on the scale of good vs. evil,
and that our Father which is in heaven loves us enough to lay down His life
for us while were yet sinners and totally unworthy of His love.



--
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"Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:2ZqdnQzn6M4ToEDYnZ2dnUVZ_oytnZ2d@adelphia.com...
> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:45dc69ce$0$16402$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>> "flightlessvacuum" <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1171933682.679541.40990@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Feb 20, 1:54 pm, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think there are many examples of earlier
>>>> and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>>>> Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>>>
>>> I really enjoyed studying the works of Homer in my youth, far superior
>>> to any of the fiction and fables contained within the bible.
>>>
>> Are you trying to compare a work of fiction with ancient Semitic
>> social and moral philosophy? Perhaps you can't even see the difference,
>> can you?
>> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>
> Being as the Bible is mostly a series of Books of Fiction the comparison
> is correct. Myth is the religious fiction of the People who write it.
The Bible is written mostly in the poetic format, and therefore is as
much "fiction" as any poetry. Only those severely challenged mentally would
call philosophical poetry "fiction".



--
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"Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:36CdndpiBMAko0DYnZ2dnUVZ_qGjnZ2d@adelphia.com...
> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:45dc69dc$0$16402$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>> <thedeviliam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1171945953.785065.293000@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Feb 19, 6:38 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Christians totally base their faith on the Bibles.
>>>>
>>>> There isn't much else to go on. What exactly is your point?
>>>
>>> Do Christians really totally based their beliefs on the Bible? Most of
>>> them haven't even read the damn thing, and the ones that have ignore
>>> whatever they don't like. You can't "totally" base your beliefs on
>>> something that contradicts itself.
>>>
>> Categorical in your condemnation, aren't you? Sorry to hear that
>> Christians don't live up to your exalted expectations, but then I bet
>> nobody does. The Bible is ancient Hebrew social and moral philosophy,
>> written mostly in the poetic format. Contradictions are mostly the result
>> of one's inability to interpret constructively. Some excel in that, for
>> that is what they are looking for and what's right escapes them
>> completely. Are you that kind of person?
>
> Frank first off only the so called Old Testament was written in Hebrew and
> it is never meant to be read literally. With Ancient Hebrew there is no
> precise meaning to the words and in fact there is an old saying that Torah
> speaks to each Generation anew and it is up to those who read it to
> discover the meaning within. Now the New Testament was written in Greek a
> language that is not really suited to transmitting Divine Wisdom and is
> thus more precisely translated, but even here people have managed to get
> it wrong because of the changes made to the texts over the Centuries by
> both the Scribes and the Church Fathers that did not like what was written
> when it did not go with what they believed.
It's clear enough for billions, why not for you?



--
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"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:45dee3ba$0$16331$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:ca2dnbWUv_62oEDYnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>> news:45dc69c2$0$16402$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Feb 19, 3:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables,
>>>>> >contradictions,
>>>>> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny,
>>>>> >destruction,
>>>>> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
>>>>> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and
>>>>> >totally
>>>>> >untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
>>>>> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
>>>>> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
>>>>> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
>>>>> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There is a
>>>>> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
>>>>> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from the
>>>>> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
>>>>> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
>>>>
>>>> As an atheist who loves literaure, I had to read the Bible in order to
>>>> understand all the references. This is just my opinion, but if you're
>>>> telling me the Bible is good fiction (I agree that it's fiction) then
>>>> Celine DIon is a good singer. I realize it's ancient writing, and as
>>>> such holds a certain historical interest, but I think the writing is
>>>> generally strident, contradictory, repetitive, and boring when it's
>>>> not psychedelically weird. I think there are many examples of earlier
>>>> and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>>>> Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>>>
>>> How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary Philosophy
>>> of life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?
>>
>> There is Great Wisdom in the Teachings of Jesus but they are far from
>> being original nor even new, but are statements of Universal Wisdom. All
>> the faiths of the World contain a portion of the Divine Truth and none
>> has all of it.
> Christ isn't about "Divine Truth" nor "Universal Wisdom" etc. etc.
> Christ is about the quality of one's actions on the scale of good vs.
> evil, and that our Father which is in heaven loves us enough to lay down
> His life for us while were yet sinners and totally unworthy of His love.
As always Frank you and I will not be seeing eye to eye on this, but that is
because we approach it from different points. I was pointing out that the
teaching of Jesus are nothing new they are a part of every faith throughout
History. You cling to this need for your God and his messenger to have been
the only one to ever think of this and that somehow this is a unique message
when the in reality it could not be further from the truth. There is no one
way to the Divine and holding to that does not make it so.
 
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:45dee3be$0$16331$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:2ZqdnQzn6M4ToEDYnZ2dnUVZ_oytnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>> news:45dc69ce$0$16402$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>> "flightlessvacuum" <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1171933682.679541.40990@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Feb 20, 1:54 pm, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there are many examples of earlier
>>>>> and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>>>>> Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>>>>
>>>> I really enjoyed studying the works of Homer in my youth, far superior
>>>> to any of the fiction and fables contained within the bible.
>>>>
>>> Are you trying to compare a work of fiction with ancient Semitic
>>> social and moral philosophy? Perhaps you can't even see the difference,
>>> can you?
>>> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>
>> Being as the Bible is mostly a series of Books of Fiction the comparison
>> is correct. Myth is the religious fiction of the People who write it.
> The Bible is written mostly in the poetic format, and therefore is as
> much "fiction" as any poetry. Only those severely challenged mentally
> would call philosophical poetry "fiction".
It is fiction in that it is not History or Science but philosophy and
religion and contains the Universal Truths that you of course think is just
exclusive to your own faith.
 
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:45dee3c1$0$16331$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:36CdndpiBMAko0DYnZ2dnUVZ_qGjnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>> news:45dc69dc$0$16402$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>> <thedeviliam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1171945953.785065.293000@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Feb 19, 6:38 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Christians totally base their faith on the Bibles.
>>>>>
>>>>> There isn't much else to go on. What exactly is your point?
>>>>
>>>> Do Christians really totally based their beliefs on the Bible? Most of
>>>> them haven't even read the damn thing, and the ones that have ignore
>>>> whatever they don't like. You can't "totally" base your beliefs on
>>>> something that contradicts itself.
>>>>
>>> Categorical in your condemnation, aren't you? Sorry to hear that
>>> Christians don't live up to your exalted expectations, but then I bet
>>> nobody does. The Bible is ancient Hebrew social and moral philosophy,
>>> written mostly in the poetic format. Contradictions are mostly the
>>> result of one's inability to interpret constructively. Some excel in
>>> that, for that is what they are looking for and what's right escapes
>>> them completely. Are you that kind of person?
>>
>> Frank first off only the so called Old Testament was written in Hebrew
>> and it is never meant to be read literally. With Ancient Hebrew there is
>> no precise meaning to the words and in fact there is an old saying that
>> Torah speaks to each Generation anew and it is up to those who read it to
>> discover the meaning within. Now the New Testament was written in Greek a
>> language that is not really suited to transmitting Divine Wisdom and is
>> thus more precisely translated, but even here people have managed to get
>> it wrong because of the changes made to the texts over the Centuries by
>> both the Scribes and the Church Fathers that did not like what was
>> written when it did not go with what they believed.
> It's clear enough for billions, why not for you?
>
Most Christians do not make the Spiritual Error of believing they can know
the full will of the Divine by reading a book written by men for men of a
long distant time. They look for the Divine message that speaks to the heart
and the soul and not to words written on the page that hide the Divine
Truths.
 
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:32:37 -0500, "Chris Morris"
<Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote:

>It is fiction in that it is not History or Science but philosophy

There aint much philosophy in there either, perhaps Ecclesiastes, and
Proverbs, but that is about it.

> and
>religion

Oh yes, lots of mythology.


>and contains the Universal Truths

List them.
 
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172081769.902448.177620@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 20, 11:55 pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Feb 19, 3:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables,
>> >> >contradictions,
>> >> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny,
>> >> >destruction,
>> >> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
>> >> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and
>> >> >totally untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
>>
>> >> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too, but
>> >> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The myths
>> >> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and are
>> >> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
>> >> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There is a
>> >> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
>> >> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from the
>> >> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
>> >> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
>>
>> > As an atheist who loves literaure, I had to read the Bible in order to
>> > understand all the references. This is just my opinion, but if you're
>> > telling me the Bible is good fiction (I agree that it's fiction) then
>> > Celine DIon is a good singer. I realize it's ancient writing, and as
>> > such holds a certain historical interest, but I think the writing is
>> > generally strident, contradictory, repetitive, and boring when it's
>> > not psychedelically weird. I think there are many examples of earlier
>> > and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>> > Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>>
>> How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary Philosophy
>> of
>> life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?
>
> I didn't miss it, Frank, I just wan't impressed. Jesus seemed like a
> prissy ***** to me. And read Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not A
> Christian" for some criticisms into the character of Jesus Christ, he
> said it far better than I ever could. Give me the philosophy of life
> explained and demonstrated by Shakespeare any day.
> And I do love literature. How can you bury your nose in the Bible and
> never experience the writings of Jane Austen, Laurence Sterne,
> Fielding, TS Eliot, Homer, Faulkner, and plenty of other brilliant
> authors far superior to the anally retentive goatherders with an
> agenda who conjured up the Bible?
>
Those are required reading at most schools, and none of their authors
are much into philosophy. Shakespeare did hit upon one important part of the
puzzle of life when he said: Life is of the stuff dreams are made of. But
most authors follow the ancient Greek tradition of illustrating the lives of
fate driven people, who act in the throws of their own folly.
Christ is altogether different and what He said deals with how people
feel about things. He knew, that people mostly do what they feel like and
seldom bother to think. Christ changes people's feelings for the better,
and thus the quality of their actions improves also, ....that all despite
the musings of Bertie Russell, whose actions btw demonstrated moral
depravity.
"anally retentive goat herders with an agenda indeed!!!!! Are they any
worse than you chanting atheist mantras "with an agenda"?



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