Georgians hate fox news too !!

[phreakwars]

Georgian Soldiers Fire on Fox News Crew - mediabistro.com: TVNewser

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[ImWithStupid]

First off, I question whether it was actually Georgian, military troops since they only used handguns. Next is firing on "Fox News" members really a bad thing?

 

[phreakwars]

It's a conspiracy. The Georgian people fired on Fox News because they were told to by the U.S.

That way the REAL story won't get reported, that probably being, that Georgian's are the aggressors, not the Russians.

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[ImWithStupid]

It's a conspiracy. The Georgian people fired on Fox News because they were told to by the U.S.
That way the REAL story won't get reported, that probably being, that Georgian's are the aggressors, not the Russians.

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That makes no sense what so ever. Georgia was the instigator into their own disputed territory, kind of like if we invaded North Dakota if they wanted to leave the US. This probably could have been handled differently, but if Canada was to come to the defense of North Dakota, but decided they would also take invade South Dakota, Wyoming, Minnesota, and Nebraska as "peace keepers" instead of stopping at the North Dakota border.

 

[Old Salt]

This is kinda off-the-wall, but it seems to me sorta like if Mexico (or any other country) would have come into the Civil War to fight on the side of the South.

 

[ImWithStupid]

This is kinda off-the-wall, but it seems to me sorta like if Mexico (or any other country) would have come into the Civil War to fight on the side of the South.

Exactly. South Ossecia is like one of the separist states and Georgia was just trying to do what Lincoln did, to reunite the Union.

Anyone who really studied what Saakasvili and the current government has done, would see that what he did, is almost just what our founding fathers did to establish a democratic republic and he did it from one of the most corrupt governments in the world. He and Georgia deserve our support against the Russian oppression they are trying to force on Georgia.

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

It's a conspiracy. The Georgian people fired on Fox News because they were told to by the U.S.
That way the REAL story won't get reported, that probably being, that Georgian's are the aggressors, not the Russians.

Here is a good read Phender

Mary Dejevsky: Russia the bad guys? Who are the West trying to kid? - Mary Dejevsky, Commentators - The Independent

 

[phreakwars]

Here is a good read Phender
Mary Dejevsky: Russia the bad guys? Who are the West trying to kid? - Mary Dejevsky, Commentators - The Independent

Like I said on my local forum, if you google some of the topics on message boards and such before Russia started actions in Georgia, you will see talk of Georgians attacking Russia.

Another thing you'll see is the Georgian president putting out all kinds of Mis information.

Yeah, McCain was there before they attacked Russia, probably along side Cheney telling Georgia how much the US wants to "HELP" them and I'm guessing, encouraged them to attack. Gotta beat that war drum somehow... This is the same guy that says, "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran".

Then when Russia retaliates, try and spin it so that Russia looks like the bad guys here.

The argument is how could Russia have gotten all the tanks and weapons and troops deployed in such a short time unless they planned it. Well, what's your definition of short time, Georgia had been ******** with Russia for over a week.

I don't feel Russia is trying to be the Russia of old at all. They were simply retaliating for hostilities in their land by Georgia. I have no sympathy for Georgia one bit.

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[wez]

Hard to know what to believe anymore..

 

[hugo]

Not sure what my position is on this yet. I'll have to check out the French position and then disagree with it.

 

[phreakwars]

Not sure what my position is on this yet. I'll have to check out the French position and then disagree with it.

Some strange sick feeling in me is telling me to go along with Hugo's instinct on that.

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[sheik-yerbouti]

And we have this rattling around in the background too:

After Georgia, Moscow issues nuclear warning to Poland - Europe, World - The Independent

Russia clearly is fearful of neighbours siding with the west. Russia sees that the USA wishes to place WMD on its neighbours surrounding land for a possible quick strike.

When Russia tried to do this in Cuba during the 6o's the USA would not tolerate it. So why does the west think it is acceptable if they do it to Russia ?

Its time to stop playing brinksmanship with Russia. We need them on our side, not forever isolated from the west

 

[ImWithStupid]

And we have this rattling around in the background too:

After Georgia, Moscow issues nuclear warning to Poland - Europe, World - The Independent

Russia clearly is fearful of neighbours siding with the west. Russia sees that the USA wishes to place WMD on its neighbours surrounding land for a possible quick strike.

When Russia tried to do this in Cuba during the 6o's the USA would not tolerate it. So why does the west think it is acceptable if they do it to Russia ?

The missile batteries that would be put in Poland are not WMD's. It is a defensive, anti-missile system only designed to shoot down missiles fire at or over Poland. They aren't offensive weapons. They don't even have explosives in them. They use the kinetic energy from the velocity and mass of the missile to destroy the offensive missiles. There will also be some patriot missiles but those too are not offensive weapons. Those are what were used to shoot down Iraq's SCUD missiles they launched at Israel during Desert Storm in the early 90's.

The missiles that USSR tried puting in Cuba in the 60's were offensive nuclear missiles aimed at the US.

Here is a good quote from the Polish Foreign Minister...

At the signing, Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski said the deal would strengthen the U.S., Poland and NATO.
Earlier this year, NATO endorsed the U.S. plan to expand its global missile defense shield with the planned site in Poland and a linked radar tracking base in the Czech Republic.

"Only evil people should be afraid of our agreement," Sikorski told reporters after Rood and his Polish counterpart, Andrzej Kremer, initialed the agreement at the Foreign Ministry.

US, Poland agree to anti-missile defense deal - Yahoo! News

As for this part...

Its time to stop playing brinksmanship with Russia. We need them on our side, not forever isolated from the west

I think that the west has done many things to try to work with Russia since the fall of the USSR, but it gets hard when they do things like continue to kill people who speak out agains them, including a former spy who was an outspoken critic of Putin that was murdered in London using radioactive polonium, they fight against defensive systems that pose no offensive threat and the only reason to oppose them would be if they planned to attack one or more of their former nations that they invaded in the past, and when they build and supply rogue nations like Iran with nuclear technology.

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

The missile batteries that would be put in Poland are not WMD's. It is a defensive, anti-missile system only designed to shoot down missiles fire at or over Poland. They aren't offensive weapons. They don't even have explosives in them. They use the kinetic energy from the velocity and mass of the missile to destroy the offensive missiles. There will also be some patriot missiles but those too are not offensive weapons. Those are what were used to shoot down Iraq's SCUD missiles they launched at Israel during Desert Storm in the early 90's..

Is this likely to be true ? Politicians are inveterate liars. Even if it were true initially, it is just the thin end of the wedge. Under this guise all sorts of things become possible, and of course, the hardware will inevitably grow. The whole thing is certain to unsettle Russia.

The missiles that USSR tried puting in Cuba in the 60's were offensive nuclear missiles aimed at the US..

Frightening stuff. But honestly, lets turn this inside out. Imagine Moscow aiding the Confederate States. Imagine a string of defensive missile batteries stretching along the southern states, all pointing northwards. Would Washington tolerate that ? Would it tolerate similar systems in Cuba?

Certainly not.

The neighbours of the USA may not do as they please. Yet there are those who think that Russia's neighbours should be allowed to, as they suck up to the west.

I think that the west has done many things to try to work with Russia since the fall of the USSR, but it gets hard when they do things like continue to kill people who speak out agains them, including a former spy who was an outspoken critic of Putin that was murdered in London using radioactive polonium, they fight against defensive systems that pose no offensive threat and the only reason to oppose them would be if they planned to attack one or more of their former nations that they invaded in the past, and when they build and supply rogue nations like Iran with nuclear technology.

I agree that Russia is not perfect. That murder and others like them seem most likely politically inspired.

I can see the splinters in Russia's eye. I can also see the logs in our own. The position is hypocritical.

 

[Old Salt]

The neighbours of the USA may not do as they please. Yet there are those who think that Russia's neighbours should be allowed to, as they suck up to the west.

This statement confuses me. Is this a reference to Cuba and the OFFENSIVE WEAPONS based there? Would you please elaborate?

 

[ImWithStupid]

Is this likely to be true ? Politicians are inveterate liars. Even if it were true initially, it is just the thin end of the wedge. Under this guise all sorts of things become possible, and of course, the hardware will inevitably grow. The whole thing is certain to unsettle Russia.

There is nothing to show that this will go past defensive systems.

Frightening stuff. But honestly, lets turn this inside out. Imagine Moscow aiding the Confederate States.

No need to image it, that is exactly what Moscow is doing in Georgia. South Ossetia is part of Georgia trying to break away like the south tried in the US 150 years ago, and Russia is aiding them in doing so.

Imagine a string of defensive missile batteries stretching along the southern states, all pointing northwards. Would Washington tolerate that ? Would it tolerate similar systems in Cuba?
Certainly not.

The neighbours of the USA may not do as they please. Yet there are those who think that Russia's neighbours should be allowed to, as they suck up to the west.

I truly doubt the US would care if defensive systems were in Cuba. They aren't an offensive threat. I'm sure the US would argue against Russia puting offensive nuclear missiles in Cuba, but they have no need since Russia's current weapons systems, with submarines and ICBM's can reach the US anyway. In the 60's they didn't have the ability to strike the US from Russia.

Again, I ask this. Why would Russia care if there are missile defense systems in a country unless they still have the option of attacking that country on the table? The logical answer is, they wouldn't.

While President Putin may have vehemently opposed a missile defense system on Polish and Czech soil, two countries with which Russia has a history of enmity and occupation respectively, he has never opposed a missile defense system in Europe.

http://www.globalpolitician.com/24770-russia-military

Sounds more like Russia has plans for Poland and The Czech Republic to me.

I agree that Russia is not perfect. That murder and others like them seem most likely politically inspired.
I can see the splinters in Russia's eye. I can also see the logs in our own. The position is hypocritical.

I see Russia not having a spliinter in their eye over this, but a fear that this could hinder thier plans to regain the soverign nations that were created, when the USSR fell. These soverign nations are not like break away regions. Poland, Lituania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, Georgia, etc... are established and diplomatically recognized individual, nations. Why shouldn't they be able to defend themselves or be concerned about Russia, based on history and their current actions in Georgia.

 

[ImWithStupid]

Anyone who thinks this isn't an energy/powerplay against the European Union (meaning the ******* in France, Germany and their friends) by Russia in Georgia, is an idiot...

Georgia: Russia targets key oil pipeline with over 50 missiles Russian jets targeted a key oil pipeline with over 50 missiles in a weekend bombing raid in Georgia that raised fears the conflict will tighten Moscow's stranglehold on Europe's energy supplies.

By Damien McElroy in Rustavi, Georgia

Last Updated: 6:22AM BST 11 Aug 2008

The oil pipeline is a soft target for Russian artilary Photo: AFP / GETTY

Deep craters pockmark the landscape south of the Georgian capital Tblisi in a Y-shaped pattern straddling the British-operated pipeline.

The attack left two deep holes less than 100 yards either side of a pressure vent on the pipeline. Shrapnel of highly engineered munitions litters the area.

Georgia: Russia targets key oil pipeline with over 50 missiles - Telegraph
Then we have this...

Georgian rail bridge blast hits Azeri oil exports 16 Aug 2008 16:56:47 GMT

Source: Reuters

BAKU, Aug 16 (Reuters) - Azerbaijan suspended oil exports through ports in western Georgia on Sunday after an explosion damaged a key rail bridge there.

Georgia accused Russian troops of blowing up a railway bridge west of the capital Tbilisi earlier in the day, saying its main east-west train link had been severed. Russia strongly denied any involvement.

"Transportation of oil and oil products in the western direction by railway has been suspended," Azerbaijan's state railway company said in a statement read out on television.

It gave the bridge explosion as the reason for the suspension. "The last shipment made by this railway contained 15 tanks," it said.

Another 72 oil tanks had been due to be sent to next-door Armenia before the railway link was cut off, it said.

The railway line runs runs from Tbilisi, through the Russian-occupied Georgian town of Gori, before splitting in three and running to the Black Sea ports of of Poti and Batumi and southwest to just short of the Turkish border. Azerbaijan is emerging as an important oil supplier to the West and its fast economic growth depends heavily on revenues from oil exports from the land-locked Caspian Sea.

Reuters AlertNet - Georgian rail bridge blast hits Azeri oil exports
Amazingly enough, now that this rail bridge is blown up, the only way for Azerbaijan to export oil is through Russia.

I'm sure this is all a complete coincidence and Russia had nothing to do with it in an attempt to control energy supplies.

Anyone still think Russia is on the side of the victims here?

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

There is nothing to show that this will go past defensive systems..

Of course there isn't. And is Russia just expected to believe that it will remain simply a defensive system ? They are not stupid.

No need to image it, that is exactly what Moscow is doing in Georgia. South Ossetia is part of Georgia trying to break away like the south tried in the US 150 years ago, and Russia is aiding them in doing so..

I have read that the majority of South Ossetians are ethnic Russians. They do not want to be part of Georgia, and have never accepted it. It isnt something that just started. Its been rumbling on for years.

Yes I agree, I think Russia is seeking to aid the split from Georgia. Maybe they want to incorporate SO back into Russia.

I truly doubt the US would care if defensive systems were in Cuba. They aren't an offensive threat. I'm sure the US would argue against Russia puting offensive nuclear missiles in Cuba, but they have no need since Russia's current weapons systems, with submarines and ICBM's can reach the US anyway. In the 60's they didn't have the ability to strike the US from Russia..

I think they would mind very much. Would you really care for a Russian missile base controlled by Russians so close to US soil that a strike could be made within just a few minutes ?

Do you really think it would remain a defensive system ? It really doesnt matter what politicians say or promise, its all lies in matters of this type.

Again, I ask this. Why would Russia care if there are missile defense systems in a country unless they still have the option of attacking that country on the table? The logical answer is, they wouldn't..

Because those "defensive " missile systems are likely to be covertly changed to incorporate other systems by the engineers that will maintain the installation.

Sounds more like Russia has plans for Poland and The Czech Republic to me..

You may be right. At this time I only see that Russia feels threatened by the Wests desire to build missile silo's at its borders.

I see Russia not having a spliinter in their eye over this, but a fear that this could hinder thier plans to regain the soverign nations that were created, when the USSR fell. These soverign nations are not like break away regions. Poland, Lituania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, Georgia, etc... are established and diplomatically recognized individual, nations. Why shouldn't they be able to defend themselves or be concerned about Russia, based on history and their current actions in Georgia.

It seems reasonable that Poland should have a defensive capability. But if Russia does bomb those installations with great loss of life as it has said it might, then it will have caused conflict, not prevented it.

I think Poland is playing a dangerous game with Russia, and the West is egging them on.

 

[sheik-yerbouti]

This statement confuses me. Is this a reference to Cuba and the OFFENSIVE WEAPONS based there? Would you please elaborate?

The point I was trying to make was that the neighbours of the US cannot place missile systems on their own soil, pointing at the USA, as we saw with Cuba in the 60,s. Neither would the US tolerate it today from Canada, Mexico, Cuba or the Bahamas.

Yet the West like to think that is perfectly acceptable to treat the Russians like this.

There may be grave consequences in doing so.