Georgians hate fox news too !!

snafu

New member
I want no part of any of that ****.. Give me a tent, food, space suit, and a lifetime supply of 02 and drop my *** on Mars..
Here's the view you'll get from your tent.

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PS: This pic was commandeered from my good friend RoyalOrleans.

 
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wez

New member
Here's the view you'll get from your tent.

.



Finally, I understand, the feelings of the few...Ashes and diamonds, foe and friend. We were all equal in the end.


Roger Waters




 
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sheik-yerbouti

Guest
If Russia was truly worried about what you say, why don't they care that there is a missile defence system in Japan?.
They probably do care. Bu there are important differences. Japans missile silo's are thousands of miles from Moscow. This gives the Russian's ample warning of any approaching missiles. They may get to shoot them down, or deploy some other device, or get people in shelters,and of course, retaliation is possible.

Retaliation may not be possible where the attackers missiles are close to the target, IE , the relatively short distance from Poland to Moscow.

Russia declared war on Japan in 1945. This was a short lived thing as the war ended a few months later. Apart from this episode, there has been, as far as I know, no friction between the Japanese and the Russians. There is no long simmering animosity between the two nations.

The situation is different in the West. There has been friction between the USA/West and Russia for decades. Attempts by the USA/West to site missile silo's alongside Russia's borders can only increase tension. But it is not the USA/West who will be exposed to Russia's wrath. It is Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and any other countries in that region stupid enough to allow themselves to be seduced by the USA/West.

You're argument keeps assuming that these will be made offensive. Japan is about as close to Russia as Poland, just off the coast of Russia and it's Pacific naval bases. The logical difference is, Russia has no aggressive plans for Japan like they do in central Europe..
Of course the weapon systems will be upgraded ! The whole purpose of the exercise is to gain the upper hand. What bullies cant take in the field, they seek to take with subterfuge.

You are right, Japan is as close to Russia as Poland is. But Japan is not as close to Moscow as Poland is. Japan is 11 times furthe from Moscow.

You may be right. Perhaps Russia has aggressive plans for Europe. Perhaps also it only wishes security, and border resolution in its ex states. Its too early to know right now.

As I said before, the US has no reason to put offensive missiles near Russia. If the US wanted to act offensively toward Russia, subs and ICBMs could hit anything anywhere.
And the Russians would retaliate with an equally devastating strike, which is why it wont happen.

The USA/West are safer toying with Russia from afar as they are now doing. I just don?t see why Poland, Georgia and the Ukraine are playing along. It's not as if the USA/West will come to their aid when push comes to shove.

Perhaps they really want to join NATO, or the EEC and complying with cohersion from the USA/West seems the best route. I have an unsettling feeling it is somethin they will regret

 
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sheik-yerbouti

Guest
Putting a defense system in any country is a good idea if you ask me. I would love to eliminate the threat of nuclear attacks. Unlike Iran, Poland can be monitored by the U.N. to make sure there is no offensive missiles and or nukes.
That might be acceptable to the Russians

 
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sheik-yerbouti

Guest
I want no part of any of that ****.. Give me a tent, food, space suit, and a lifetime supply of 02 and drop my *** on Mars..
Talking of Mars, it was a few years ago now, when they were seeking volunteers to live in a closed environment in Russia. The participants were to have no contact with the outside world, just each other. The idea was to see how people might manage such a long time as the journey to mars and back. I wonder how they are all getting along.

 

ImWithStupid

New member
The west can't put defensive systems in Poland, Czech Republic or the Ukraine, but it's ok for Russia to put offensive, nuclear capable missiles in South Ossetia. I guess the west is still the agressor, with evil plans and poor old Russia is still the wholesome, victim.

Pledging to Leave Georgia, Russia Tightens Its Grip
By MICHAEL R. GORDON

Published: August 17, 2008

WASHINGTON — Even as Russia pledged to begin withdrawing its forces from neighboring Georgia on Monday, American officials said the Russian military had been moving launchers for short-range ballistic missiles into South Ossetia, a step that appeared intended to tighten its hold on the breakaway territory.

The Russian military deployed several SS-21 missile launchers and supply vehicles to South Ossetia on Friday, according to American officials familiar with intelligence reports. From the new launching positions north of Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital, the missiles can reach much of Georgia, including Tbilisi, the capital.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/world/europe/18georgia.html?hp

 
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sheik-yerbouti

Guest
The west can't put defensive systems in Poland, Czech Republic or the Ukraine, but it's ok for Russia to put offensive, nuclear capable missiles in South Ossetia. I guess the west is still the agressor, with evil plans and poor old Russia is still the wholesome, victim.
Thanks for the link. That is worrying. Why would they site those weapons in SO, if they planned to withdraw soon ?

 

ImWithStupid

New member
Thanks for the link. That is worrying. Why would they site those weapons in SO, if they planned to withdraw soon ?
Here's the type of things that worry me...

Russians Melded Old-School Blitz With Modern Military Tactics
By THOM SHANKER

Published: August 16, 2008

WASHINGTON — Russia’s victorious military blitz into the former Soviet republic of Georgia brought something old and something new — but none of it was impromptu, despite appearances that a long-frozen conflict had suddenly turned hot.

The Russian military borrowed a page from classic Soviet-era doctrine: Moscow’s commanders sent an absolutely overwhelming force into Georgia. It was never going to be an even fight, and the outcome was predictable, if not preordained.

In fact, Pentagon and military officials say Russia held a major ground exercise in July just north of Georgia’s border, called Caucasus 2008, that played out a chain of events like the one carried out over recent days.
“This exercise was exactly what they executed in Georgia just a few weeks later,” said Dale Herspring, an expert on Russian military affairs at Kansas State University. “This exercise was a complete dress rehearsal.”

Russia prepared the battlefield in the months leading up to the outbreak of fighting.
In April, Russia reinforced its peacekeeping force in Abkhazia with advanced artillery, and in May it sent construction troops to fix a railroad line linking that area with Russia.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world/europe/17military.html?ref=europe

I truly believe that Russia provoked this using South Ossetia as an excuse to reclaim Georgia.

 
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sheik-yerbouti

Guest
I truly believe that Russia provoked this using South Ossetia as an excuse to reclaim Georgia.
Watch this. It looks like Georgia was preparing this with US involvement. US troops left 2 days before the Georgian invasion of SO. The Russians are claiming 1600 dead civilians due to this Georgian action.

Ive just read that the missiles you mentioned are mobile units, They are being withdrawn from Georgia to the disputed territories. Looks like Russia intends to either defend the SO population until things return to normal, or perhaps stay indefinitely.

[ame=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8bf_1218721868]LiveLeak.com - Georgia War Puppet[/ame]

 
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sheik-yerbouti

Guest
This is pretty serious, you should watch it all.

It seems that the Russians fully expected the US forces in Georgia to engage in the fighting. Had the Us forces done so AND used precision weapons to target Russian troops, then the Russians might/would have used nuclear weapons - they consider them both to be WMD.

Thats what the mobile silos are doing there. Thats how close it came.

[ame=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d43_1218582627]LiveLeak.com - Russians move 2 SS-21 Tactical Nuke Ballistic Missile Launchers into South Ossetia[/ame]

 

Old Salt

New member
They probably do care. Bu there are important differences. Japans missile silo's are thousands of miles from Moscow. This gives the Russian's ample warning of any approaching missiles. They may get to shoot them down, or deploy some other device, or get people in shelters,and of course, retaliation is possible.
Retaliation may not be possible where the attackers missiles are close to the target, IE , the relatively short distance from Poland to Moscow.

Russia declared war on Japan in 1945. This was a short lived thing as the war ended a few months later. Apart from this episode, there has been, as far as I know, no friction between the Japanese and the Russians. There is no long simmering animosity between the two nations.

The situation is different in the West. There has been friction between the USA/West and Russia for decades. Attempts by the USA/West to site missile silo's alongside Russia's borders can only increase tension. But it is not the USA/West who will be exposed to Russia's wrath. It is Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and any other countries in that region stupid enough to allow themselves to be seduced by the USA/West.

Of course the weapon systems will be upgraded ! The whole purpose of the exercise is to gain the upper hand. What bullies cant take in the field, they seek to take with subterfuge.

You are right, Japan is as close to Russia as Poland is. But Japan is not as close to Moscow as Poland is. Japan is 11 times furthe from Moscow.

You may be right. Perhaps Russia has aggressive plans for Europe. Perhaps also it only wishes security, and border resolution in its ex states. Its too early to know right now.

And the Russians would retaliate with an equally devastating strike, which is why it wont happen.

The USA/West are safer toying with Russia from afar as they are now doing. I just don’t see why Poland, Georgia and the Ukraine are playing along. It's not as if the USA/West will come to their aid when push comes to shove.

Perhaps they really want to join NATO, or the EEC and complying with cohersion from the USA/West seems the best route. I have an unsettling feeling it is somethin they will regret
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Japan's island row with Russia

Japan's island row with Russia
Russia seized the islands at the end of World War II

The BBC News website looks at the background to the long-standing territorial dispute between Russia and Japan over the Kuril islands.
Because of the dispute, Russia and Japan have not yet signed a peace treaty to end World War II.
(bolding mine)
 

ImWithStupid

New member
You are right, Japan is as close to Russia as Poland is. But Japan is not as close to Moscow as Poland is. Japan is 11 times furthe from Moscow.
The distance from Moscow didn't bother Russia when they shot down Korean Airline flight 007 when it veered off course and came close to their navy bases by Japan, killing over 200 civilians on board. The pilot of the jet that fired the missiles that downed the flight even said it was clearly a passenger jet.

 

Old Salt

New member
The distance from Moscow didn't bother Russia when they shot down Korean Airline flight 007 when it veered off course and came close to their navy bases by Japan, killing over 200 civilians on board. The pilot of the jet that fired the missiles that downed the flight even said it was clearly a passenger jet.
But, but, but.... IWS, that was when the Communists and the KGB were running the country. Oh, wait a minute, the KGB (or its ex-members, I should say) is still running Russia.
 

ImWithStupid

New member
and twice now they failed to follow through with the conditions of the cease fire plan they signed with the president of France...

Despite pledge to withdraw, Russians seize more ground in Georgia
By Tom Lasseter and Shashank Bengali, McClatchy Newspapers

Mon Aug 18, 6:02 PM ET

IGOETI, Georgia — Despite assurances that it would withdraw troops from Georgia starting Monday, the Russian military operated with impunity as its forces moved convoys in and out of the city of Gori and plowed through a police roadblock in this town some 25 miles northwest of Tbilisi , the capital.

In Washington , senior defense officials cited "troubling" intelligence that Russia had set up short-range ballistic missile launchers in South Ossetia . The SS-21 missiles have a range of 40 to 70 miles, meaning they can reach the capital from practically any part of South Ossetia , which Russian forces now occupy.

The officials, who refused to be identified due to the sensitivity of the subject, also said there was no significant Russian movement out of Georgia .
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080818/wl_mcclatchy/3021530

Plus they are doing this...

Russia steps up bomber runs near Alaska
MENTAL WAR: US military counts 16 incidents since July.

By RICHARD MAUER

rmauer@adn.com

Published: March 28th, 2008 01:50 AM

Last Modified: March 28th, 2008 02:32 AM

Russia's resurgent military is again making sporadic, unannounced bomber runs toward Alaska's airspace, leading the Air Force to scramble jets to intercept and identify them, according to the commander of the Pacific Air Forces, Gen. Howie Chandler.

The most recent incident, involving two Russian Tu-95 Bear bombers, occurred Tuesday, Chandler said during a meeting with reporters at Elmendorf Air Force Base on Thursday. Since July, there have been 16 such incidents, according to the Air Force.
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/358368.html

Remember Russia loving people like Sheik will tell you that it's the west that is on the offensive and provoking cold war style tactics.

Had this been US or US ally flights over Russia, they wouldn't be escorted back, they would be shot down, and then somehow justified. 25 years later, even though the families of the dead in the KAL 007 passenger flight mourn the dead, Russia still tries to claim it was a spy plane.

 
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sheik-yerbouti

Guest
The distance from Moscow didn't bother Russia when they shot down Korean Airline flight 007 when it veered off course and came close to their navy bases by Japan, killing over 200 civilians on board. The pilot of the jet that fired the missiles that downed the flight even said it was clearly a passenger jet.
I remember that. A terrible tragedy. But also pretty frightening too, as the Soviets and US airforces often fly close to each others air space to test each ohers resolve. I often wondered if it was done as threat to the US not to encroach further.

 
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sheik-yerbouti

Guest
Remember Russia loving people like Sheik .
I just strip the spin off the news. I dont swallow it whole like some people do.

Russia is being portayed as the bad guy, which is not the entire truth. It is Georgia that invaded South Ossetia.Their action has resulted in nearly 2000 ethnic Russian deaths. It is the US which appears to have trained them prior to their assault. Russia has stepped in to halt further Georgian aggression.

The US would have behaved exactly as the Russians, had Mexico bombed Texas. You know that is true.

 

ImWithStupid

New member
I just strip the spin off the news. I dont swallow it whole like some people do.
Russia is being portayed as the bad guy, which is not the entire truth. It is Georgia that invaded South Ossetia.Their action has resulted in nearly 2000 ethnic Russian deaths. It is the US which appears to have trained them prior to their assault. Russia has stepped in to halt further Georgian aggression.
According to all reports other than the horredously biased and factually incorrect video you posted, the only US forces in Georgia were there weeks ago for an exercise other than that there was US special forces there to train the next Georgian forces that were going to Iraq. They were only trained in anti-terrorist and anti-insurgent tactics for deployment in Iraq.

The US would have behaved exactly as the Russians, had Mexico bombed Texas. You know that is true.
It's a bit of a difference, for your scenario to be the same, Texas would have to be a US backed breakaway province of Mexico. Texas is a voluntary state of the USA, that has a condition in it's constitutional agreement with the US that it can seceed if it sees fit, since it was once a soverign nation. South Ossetia is a break away region of diplomatically recognized Republic of Georgia that has never had it's own soveriegnty.

Believe me, I'm not so ignorant as to believe that Georgia is innocent, they were idiots to invade South Ossetia, but I think Russia was counting on them, and even baited them into trying and get control over their break away province of South Ossetia, and use it as an excuse to invade Georgia.

I also believe Russia has no intention of leaving Georgia and at the very least, taking over South Ossetia and Abkahzia.

I also have a problem with this claim of death of Russians. Russia told South Ossetians that they would give Russian passports to anyone who wanted them.

That would equate to Scotland wanting to break away from Great Britain and Russia saying they would give citizenship to anyone who asked. Then if GB tried to regain control of Scotland, Russia invaded GB with overwhelming force and said they were only defending Russian citizens in Scotland.

Russia, under ex-KGB Putin, is returning to same old, same old.

 
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