IS THERE ANY REAL GOD???

[jokersarewild]

I'm not saying that God isn't commerciallized these days. But there are those that don't buy into all of that. Those who actually try to live a great life and worship alot and think god for what is good in their lives. But, I will admit that 99.9 percent of people don't do that. Quite sad, really.

 

[TheJenn88]

I'm not saying that God isn't commerciallized these days. But there are those that don't buy into all of that. Those who actually try to live a great life and worship alot and think god for what is good in their lives. But, I will admit that 99.9 percent of people don't do that. Quite sad, really.

JAW, I agree with you. Builder, you can't just say that religion is a business, that is far, far too general, and inaccurate.

In my opinion, I actually think the world we lives in spins religion into an organization that needs money, not the other way around, where it calls itself a business. Most people, out of good faith attend mass, or believe they should pay tithes to the church they attend, or try their best to abideby the ten commandments, and whatever other examples there are.

Those examples I gave are examples of faith, belief, and the enjoyment of doing so. The money part comes into play were ANY institution, not just religion, needs money to survive. It's the sad world we live in that something as simple and pure as faith can't get on in this world without a buck to help it by.

I mean, it's obviously idiotic to ignore obvious money-grabbers like the Vatican who spend lavishly on themselves (moreso in the long-past than recent), or TV Evangelists, or non-religiously spawned companies who sell Bibles on DVD. But then that's people & money abusing religion, not religion abusing people and money.

But to say that religion is a business can be far from the truth, because it is not money, or profit that attract the average joe to their faith. It is for the enjoyment of the belief that they are entitled to. People have to buy into what companies sell them, though, because suddenly practicing their faith comes at a price (in some cases), instead of free.

Anything can be marketed, it doesn't matter if it's your own ****, an iPod, or religion. The only reason that it survives is because nothing comes free anymore, people feel like they need it, and companies have brains behind the scene who can figure out mass-market ploys to make anything sell.

It seems you are taking a lot of the Catholic Church and using that as a representation of all denominations of Christianity, and other religions, too.

 

[builder]

Yes, I made a sweeping generalisation, Jenn. But here is how the US govt can easily be led into supporting such religious nutcases as our new messiah, the reverend Moon. He bought his way into congress, and swindles his way into lots of things we will never know about. Last seen in the company of Bush's brother.

As part of an Ambassadors for Peace ceremony, Rev. Moon was one of several dozen honorees at a ceremony at the Dirksen Senate Office Building on March 23, 2004. In what both church insiders and media commentators have called a "coronation ceremony," Moon and his wife were given bejeweled crowns by Rep. Danny K. Davis, D-IL.

Moon announced that he would save everyone on Earth as he had saved the souls of even such murderous dictators as Hitler and Stalin, who he claimed had received "the Blessing" through him. Moon said the reformed Hitler and Stalin vouched for him from the spirit world, calling him "none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent."

The media ignored the event at the time except for Moon's Washington Times, but freelance journalist John Gorenfeld spent the next three months reconstructing the details of the event. His writings forced a sheepish Washington Post, scooped by Web sites, to cover the Senate ritual, which The New York Times editorial page compared to an act of the Roman emperor Caligula.

It's all about money. If you want to worship, you don't need to pander to the wishes of someone who thinks they are above you. As kids in a youth group, we used to have church in a shady grove of trees by a creek on weekend camping trips. There is no need to wear your sunday best or visit a pointy-roofed building for your prayers to be heard.

 

[TheJenn88]

Yes, I made a sweeping generalisation, Jenn. But here is how the US govt can easily be led into supporting such religious nutcases as our new messiah, the reverend Moon. He bought his way into congress, and swindles his way into lots of things we will never know about. Last seen in the company of Bush's brother.



It's all about money. If you want to worship, you don't need to pander to the wishes of someone who thinks they are above you. As kids in a youth group, we used to have church in a shady grove of trees by a creek on weekend camping trips. There is no need to wear your sunday best or visit a pointy-roofed building for your prayers to be heard.

Saying there is no need to wear your Sunday best is like saying you don't need to be presentable for your partner. It's nice to be presentable, it's nice to go out of your way. I seriously doubt people feel like they're defying God if they don't wear frilly lace. It's a choice they make, the same as someone would make to dress up to go on a date.

Religion does not equal money. But for the institutions that people CHOOSE to attend, they have to pay money, or else they won't exist. The church has to be paid for before it can exist and have a roof and walls. It requires money to do that. And since people choose to want that, they also have to pay for it. If everyone wanted to pray in the shadow of a tree, then they would. People make the choice to follow their religion the way they want, but that still does not equate to a church, or a religion being a business.

Also, my first point wasn't intended to necessarily point out way in which a religion may or may not be businesslike, but actually to point out your massive mistake in being far too general and making yourself look ignorant of what else goes on this world (like..you know, other religions?)

 

[jokersarewild]

Yes, I made a sweeping generalisation, Jenn. But here is how the US govt can easily be led into supporting such religious nutcases as our new messiah, the reverend Moon. He bought his way into congress, and swindles his way into lots of things we will never know about. Last seen in the company of Bush's brother.

One thing you will find in debates, Builder, is that the US government happens to be a very corrupt power, and since G Dubya is in the white house, it is even worse. I could see how you would draw a paralell between "Big bidness" and religion, but that isn't the case. Those who are elected in america see themselves as indebted not to those who elected them, but to those who payed their way in. So, of course, religion happens to be one of the things that Bush trys to make bidness, but you can't tell me every single christian, jew, or catholic does the same thing. You just can't.

It's all about money. If you want to worship, you don't need to pander to the wishes of someone who thinks they are above you. As kids in a youth group, we used to have church in a shady grove of trees by a creek on weekend camping trips. There is no need to wear your sunday best or visit a pointy-roofed building for your prayers to be heard.

We never said that you had to go to church. But those who want to go have to pay just a little into the collection plate, or tithe. They don't pay a damn thing if they don't go.

 

[tiredofwhiners]

" then they pass around a plate at the end of it all and i did'nt have a penny to pay, so i got me a pen and paper and made up my own damn sign. said thank you lord for thinking about me i'm alive and doing fine"

 

[stayhuman]

the idea of a supreme being is irrational fancy created by a bunch
of primitives to help them understand a world
they couldn't comprehend......

 

[TheJenn88]

the idea of a supreme being is irrational fancy created by a bunch
of primitives to help them understand a world
they couldn't comprehend......

That's a nice thought, and all, but care to elaborate? Why do you think we still keep this notion of a divine power if we have come so far in many milennia? And how does the acceptance of a divine being correlate to the inability to understand? What is there to understand? How are we not able to understand? How is one able to determine that atheists hold the correct belief?

 

[stayhuman]

well, it's up to someone that believes in a god to prove it........
seeing as proof of god no longer requires faith, then the whole idea
disappears in a puff of logic........
just as a dog will never comprehend calculus, the homo sapien can
never comprehend what is outside our understanding.....we don't have the cognitive machinery......
unfortunately.
of course, i could be wrong.

 

[TheJenn88]

never comprehend what is outside our understanding.....we don't have the cognitive machinery......
unfortunately.
of course, i could be wrong.

While that does seem the most plausible course for humans, what if "understanding god" is to today as "flying in space" was to 5000 years ago? That's just a "what if," though.

 

[Mohammed_Rots_In_Hell]

" then they pass around a plate at the end of it all and i did'nt have a penny to pay, so i got me a pen and paper and made up my own damn sign. said thank you lord for thinking about me i'm alive and doing fine"

Sign, Sign everywhere a sign... blocking out the scenary, breaking my mind... do this, don't do that! Can't you read the sign?

 

[jokersarewild]

well, it's up to someone that believes in a god to prove it........
seeing as proof of god no longer requires faith, then the whole idea
disappears in a puff of logic........
just as a dog will never comprehend calculus, the homo sapien can
never comprehend what is outside our understanding.....we don't have the cognitive machinery......
unfortunately.
of course, i could be wrong.

Someone's been reading too much Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy. And it has never been up to anyone to prove the existance. If you knew anything about religion, then you would know that about 95% of the time the whole damn thing is based upon blind faith. The other 5 percent are constantly trying to find proof, and failing. And somewhat building on what Jenn said, it is not necessarily hat it will be outsie our understanding forever, it is more that we have not quite developed the logic, reasoning, and overall intelligence to figure out what we don't know yet. But even when we figure it out, why did we figure it out? Why does evolution exist? How did the world come to be? What is the meaning of life? God is supposed to have infinite wisdom, so those questions would be answered for us by him. That is why we need to think he exists. So that we can one day hope to understand.

 

[Ruse]

Religion has been in my family since the very beginning, so, I've always had inclinations of some other being, but, ... here I go:

Studies have been conducted over "if there is a spiritual gene". Genes that allow a person to be "deeper" than others, and I think with all of the technology today that have disproved other studies about religion and the stories behind it (IE Jesus), this should be taken into consideration. Even with that, does anyone just flat out think that studies like that are wrong? God Gene

 

[jokersarewild]

I have the "God Gene". He speaks to me through "burning Bushes"

 

[quarky]

Contrary to the belief is some people I do believe in God, but not in religion. You made some good points, points I have long thought about during my life.

1.. Why does God not speak directly to all of mankind to confirm his
existence, commands and wishes? Why is God so secretive and nebulous?

God doesn't directly talk to mankind because it is so far beyond us, its not possible. It would be like you trying to communicate to a one celled organisim. Even if you could, you would be so far beyond the one celled organisms ability to comprehaned you would most probably kill it.

2.. Why does God not demonstrate, of the thousands of God beliefs and
claims, that he is the real God and all the others are fakes? Why does he
not smite the fakes so that his creatures are not misled?

Again I do not believe any religion is right, but I also think in some messure they are. The one underlying message you get from all religions, (if you can ignore the crap) is that all life is connected. But once again God does not demonstrate its power because we are to small to understand.

3.. Why does any real God not permit communication from dead parents,
relatives and friends with those living presently? This would permit the
living to hear first hand, from people they know and trust, how they should
properly conduct their lives. This would also confirm God's reality and the
reality of his heaven.

There is a buddist saying that roughtly goes. when I was a caterpillar I thought as a caterpillar and lived as a caterpillar, when I became a butterfly it is beyond the caterpillar to understand what I have become, so I now live as a butterfly and take no notice of the caterpillars.
We cannot talk to the dead because they have become more that we are capable of understanding.

4.. If there is a true God, of the thousands of God beliefs and claims,
which is the true God and which are fakes? Why does the true God not smite
and destroy all the fakes so that his creatures are not misled?

Yeah but you are thinking of a singluar omi precent entity, which is crap, god is life, its the understanding of the conscious mind, as it begins to comprehend ones own existence.

The creation thoery is flawed and so is the pure evolution thoery.
Creations main flaw is basically who created God, because God had to be created and the filler argument that god has always been is pathetic and flawed, so don't even try.
Also evolution began with the big band, which basically says that there was a void and matter formed within the void. My question is this, how did the void start and how did matter forum within the void, when a void is a pure state of nothing?

 

[ALLAH IS GREAT]

1.. Why does God not speak directly to all of mankind to confirm his
existence, commands and wishes? Why is God so secretive and nebulous?

Well God spoke directly to Moses(pbuh). There is no secrecy,God sent mankind guidance through the Prophets and His Books. It is up to us if we hold on to that guidance or turn away from it.

''Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad) am not a watcher over you.'' Quran 6: 104

2.. Why does God not demonstrate, of the thousands of God beliefs and
claims, that he is the real God and all the others are fakes? Why does he
not smite the fakes so that his creatures are not misled?

Well I can only speak for Islam. God tells us directly that He is the one and only true God in the Holy Quran.

‘Say(O Muhammad): He is God, the One and Unique;
God, the Eternal source and support
Of everything;
He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
And none is His equal.’ Quran 112:1-4

God does not mislead us.We have been given the choice,therefore we are not mislead by anyone but ourselves.

3.. Why does any real God not permit communication from dead parents,
relatives and friends with those living presently? This would permit the
living to hear first hand, from people they know and trust, how they should
properly conduct their lives. This would also confirm God's reality and the
reality of his heaven.

Once we leave this earth,we wont come back to life until the Day of Judgement. Our parents will be brought back to life on that Day and mankind will be judged on what good and bad they did on this earth. God tells us how to conduct our lives in the perfect way, so you are not lost because your parents have died.
In Islam we are taught that Paradise lies at the feet of your Mother.So be good to your parents and you will see that paradise is a reality.

''And your Lord has decreed that you worship non but Him.And that you be dutiful to your parents.If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life,say not to them a word of disrespect,nor shout at them but address in terms of honour.''
''And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy and say:'My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was young.'' Quran 17:23-24

4.. If there is a true God, of the thousands of God beliefs and claims,
which is the true God and which are fakes? Why does the true God not smite
and destroy all the fakes so that his creatures are not misled?

Isnt this the same as question 2?

Because no God has directly, clearly and with authenticity, answered any of
these questions, it is abundantly evident that none of these thousands of
Gods actually exist.

Read the Quran, all these quetions are answered in full. You cant turn away from God's guidance and not read it, then say God hasnt answered these quetions.
The Quran is authentic and has not been tampered with, just by reading its first words should tell you that there is a one true God.

The first words in the Quran are:

''In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious,the Most Merciful.''

''All Praise and thanks are Allah's, the Lord of the Alamin(mankind and all that exists).'' Quran1:1-2

The objective evidence is that Gods did not create man, but quite the
opposite; that man created Gods!

Yes man has created gods,that is evident in the clay gods that exist and worshiping a man who is just like us doesnt make sense either(no offence,but its true), but the one true God is unseen,above all His creations,free of defects and sees and hears us.

''Verily, it is Allah(God) Who causes the seed grain and the fruit stone to split and sprout. He brings forth the living from the dead, and it is He Who brings froth the dead from the living. Such is Allah, then how are you deluded away from the truth?''

''Cleaver of the daybreak.He has appointed the night for resting, and the sun and the moon for reckoning.Such is the measuring of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.''

''It is He who has set the stars for you, so that you may guide your course with their help through the darkness of the land and the sea. We have explained in detail Our Ayat (proofs,evidences,revelations) for people who know.''

''It is He Who has created you from a single person (Adam), and has given you a place of residing(your mother's womb) and a place of storage. Indeed, We have explained in detail Our Revelations(this Quran) for people who understand.'' 6:95-98

''He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth.How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-knower of everything.''

''Such is Allah, your Lord!(non has the right to be worshipped but He), and He is the Wakil (trustee) over all things.''

''No vision can grasp Him, but He grasps all vision. He is Al-Latif( the Most Subtle and Corteous), Well-Aquainted with all things''. 6:101-103

 

[papabryant]

well, it's up to someone that believes in a god to prove it........

And this has already been done, several times over. The problem lies in that some people don't want to believe regardless of the level of evidence. Richard Carrier one siad that if God wanted everyone to believe He would write "Jesus is Lord" in block letters on the surface of the Moon. To which a Christian poster said "But there would be some who would complain that God didn't write in cursive."

Glenn Miller has answered this complaint in his own unique way:

"For some reason, these arguments don't ever seem to be satisfied. If we have N witnesses to an event, they want "N+1"...And if EVERY SINGLE WRITER talks about the event in EXACT detail, they are accused of "collusion" and "conspiracy". And if EVERY SINGLE WRITER talks about the event, but uses different vocab, style, levels of precison, of selection of details, THEN the antagonists complain about 'contradictions' and 'disagreements'! What's a mother to do?!!!! (I am always amused at these 'argument from silence' literary positions and the ability to spoof it... ("Since Jesus never spoke his own name in the Gospels, he must not have known it!")."

seeing as proof of god no longer requires faith, then the whole idea
disappears in a puff of logic........

This is a defective definition of faith. Your definition has a modernist, Kierkegaardian definition of faith at its core. There is nothing inherantly incorrect about it, but it not the definition of faith as it would be understood by a first century person reading the NT books and letters for the first time.

The word in the NT that is translated into English as "faith" most often is the Greek word "pistis". It was a word that a very narrow usage, being primarily a term used (as a noun) in Greek rhetorical arguements for "forensic proof". When the word was used as a verb its meaning was "trust based on verification".

The Bible's trustworthiness, when read with an eye towards how it would be understood by those who saw it first and their cultural/social world, has proven itself to be beyond reproach.