R
Rich Travsky
Guest
wbyeats@ireland.com wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:12:10 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"
> <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> ><wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote in message
> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 04:13:36 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"
> >> <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> You need me to explain why? Beccause if success is not
> >>>>>>>>>>> possible, then we
> >>>>>>>>>>> are putting our military men and women in harms way, some of
> >>>>>>>>>>> them dying
> >>>>>>>>>>> everyday, trying to achieve something, that cannot be achieved.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I guess we need to make it simple. Success is not possible. The
> >>>>>>>>>> invasion of Iraq was stupid, unnecessary, ill-planned, and poorly
> >>>>>>>>>> executed. The US destabilized a country and had little if any
> >>>>>>>>>> plans for the consequences of what anyone with half a brain and
> >>>>>>>>>> a knowledge of the region knew would occur - sectarian strife.
> >>>>>>>>>> So the US has succeeded in starting an internal war and putting
> >>>>>>>>>> the US military right smack-dab in the middle. The stabilization
> >>>>>>>>>> of Iraq is a political battle - not military. If the soldiers
> >>>>>>>>>> leave then all hell breaks loose. If the soldiers stay, they
> >>>>>>>>>> continue to die for political (not military) reasons. Success is
> >>>>>>>>>> next to impossible so the soldiers should come home. That leaves
> >>>>>>>>>> the US in the untenable position of taking down a regime (no
> >>>>>>>>>> matter how evil and corrupt) and leaving nothing in return. It's
> >>>>>>>>>> our fault that Iraq is in the position we see today.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So, you agree that we should pull out of Iraq IMMEDIATELY? Is
> >>>>>>>>> that what the
> >>>>>>>>> democrats are forcing the President to do?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Tomorrow - no. By the end of the year - yup. And let Bush live
> >>>>>>>> with it for the rest of his life. Not only letting American
> >>>>>>>> soldiers die for his greater glory but upsetting the precarious
> >>>>>>>> balance in the area. Seems Cheney was right about a decade ago -
> >>>>>>>> can you say quagmire?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, because you want Bush to live with it a little longer, you are
> >>>>>>> willing to have more of our men and women die, just to make a
> >>>>>>> point? Pretty sick mind you have....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You really that ignorant or do you work at it? The end of the year
> >>>>>> would be the quickest that US forces could leave with a minute chance
> >>>>>> of a stable Iraq. Bush's paying with his conscience is another point.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> But you just finished saying that success is not possible. Now yo ar
> >>>>> saying that there is a "minute" chance for a stale Iraq.... Can you
> >>>>> please expain the obvious inconsistency in your statement.
> >>>>
> >>>> There can be no "success" in as flawed a mission as bush,jr's Iraqi
> >>>> adventure
> >>>
> >>>Glad you made the clarification. So, we are back to the original
> >>>question.
> >>>If success is not possible, the we should leave IMMEDIATELY right? And
> >>>"if"
> >>>the democrats in Congress agrees with our assessment, then the should also
> >>>be "forcing" the President to withdraw IMMEDIATELY also, shouldn't they?
> >>>Are they doing that...NO. So, then, the Democrats in Congress do not
> >>>agree
> >>>with your assessment do they?
> >>
> >> It's all political now, comprende? Secondly, the Dems do not have a
> >> large enough majority to force withdrawl. Lastly many Dems are leery
> >> of immediate withdrawl because of the blood bath that will surely
> >> follow. Thank you Mr. Prez for putt5ing Americans in harm's way for
> >> your greater glory. The entire situation is like a Greek play with the
> >> Congress being the chorus, and Mr. Bush as the protagonist who fails
> >> due to hubris. Dubya Rex?
> >>
> >
> >They "may not" have a large enough majority, but if they believed in what
> >they say they believe in, then they should do what they think is the right
> >course of action, even if they cannot succeed. How can there be a blood
> >bath? Is the insurgency strong enough to cause a bloodbath, not very
> >likely....
>
> The US departs and Iraq becomes sectarian central with the Shia,
> Sunni, Kurd, etc: going at it. Don't forget there's no central
> government. Then add in one part Iran, one part Saudi Arabia, and one
> part Turkey and the entire region's in flames. Musharraf then falls in
> Pakistan (a probability in the very near future) and you get the
> perfect storm. That doesn't even take Afghanistan into account. Look
> what Wee Georgie has wrought. And who do you think the geopolitical
> winner is? Take a guess.
Actually, the projections are that Iraq would split into three countries.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/16/AR2007071601680.html
Tuesday, July 17, 2007
If U.S. combat forces withdraw from Iraq in the near future, three
developments would be likely to unfold. Majority Shiites would drive
Sunnis out of ethnically mixed areas west to Anbar province. Southern
Iraq would erupt in civil war between Shiite groups. And the Kurdish
north would solidify its borders and invite a U.S. troop presence there.
In short, Iraq would effectively become three separate nations.
That was the conclusion reached in recent "war games" exercises conducted
for the U.S. military by retired Marine Col. Gary Anderson. "I honestly
don't think it will be apocalyptic," said Anderson, who has served in Iraq
and now works for a major defense contractor. But "it will be ugly."
...
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:12:10 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"
> <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> ><wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote in message
> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 04:13:36 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"
> >> <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> You need me to explain why? Beccause if success is not
> >>>>>>>>>>> possible, then we
> >>>>>>>>>>> are putting our military men and women in harms way, some of
> >>>>>>>>>>> them dying
> >>>>>>>>>>> everyday, trying to achieve something, that cannot be achieved.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I guess we need to make it simple. Success is not possible. The
> >>>>>>>>>> invasion of Iraq was stupid, unnecessary, ill-planned, and poorly
> >>>>>>>>>> executed. The US destabilized a country and had little if any
> >>>>>>>>>> plans for the consequences of what anyone with half a brain and
> >>>>>>>>>> a knowledge of the region knew would occur - sectarian strife.
> >>>>>>>>>> So the US has succeeded in starting an internal war and putting
> >>>>>>>>>> the US military right smack-dab in the middle. The stabilization
> >>>>>>>>>> of Iraq is a political battle - not military. If the soldiers
> >>>>>>>>>> leave then all hell breaks loose. If the soldiers stay, they
> >>>>>>>>>> continue to die for political (not military) reasons. Success is
> >>>>>>>>>> next to impossible so the soldiers should come home. That leaves
> >>>>>>>>>> the US in the untenable position of taking down a regime (no
> >>>>>>>>>> matter how evil and corrupt) and leaving nothing in return. It's
> >>>>>>>>>> our fault that Iraq is in the position we see today.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So, you agree that we should pull out of Iraq IMMEDIATELY? Is
> >>>>>>>>> that what the
> >>>>>>>>> democrats are forcing the President to do?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Tomorrow - no. By the end of the year - yup. And let Bush live
> >>>>>>>> with it for the rest of his life. Not only letting American
> >>>>>>>> soldiers die for his greater glory but upsetting the precarious
> >>>>>>>> balance in the area. Seems Cheney was right about a decade ago -
> >>>>>>>> can you say quagmire?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, because you want Bush to live with it a little longer, you are
> >>>>>>> willing to have more of our men and women die, just to make a
> >>>>>>> point? Pretty sick mind you have....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You really that ignorant or do you work at it? The end of the year
> >>>>>> would be the quickest that US forces could leave with a minute chance
> >>>>>> of a stable Iraq. Bush's paying with his conscience is another point.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> But you just finished saying that success is not possible. Now yo ar
> >>>>> saying that there is a "minute" chance for a stale Iraq.... Can you
> >>>>> please expain the obvious inconsistency in your statement.
> >>>>
> >>>> There can be no "success" in as flawed a mission as bush,jr's Iraqi
> >>>> adventure
> >>>
> >>>Glad you made the clarification. So, we are back to the original
> >>>question.
> >>>If success is not possible, the we should leave IMMEDIATELY right? And
> >>>"if"
> >>>the democrats in Congress agrees with our assessment, then the should also
> >>>be "forcing" the President to withdraw IMMEDIATELY also, shouldn't they?
> >>>Are they doing that...NO. So, then, the Democrats in Congress do not
> >>>agree
> >>>with your assessment do they?
> >>
> >> It's all political now, comprende? Secondly, the Dems do not have a
> >> large enough majority to force withdrawl. Lastly many Dems are leery
> >> of immediate withdrawl because of the blood bath that will surely
> >> follow. Thank you Mr. Prez for putt5ing Americans in harm's way for
> >> your greater glory. The entire situation is like a Greek play with the
> >> Congress being the chorus, and Mr. Bush as the protagonist who fails
> >> due to hubris. Dubya Rex?
> >>
> >
> >They "may not" have a large enough majority, but if they believed in what
> >they say they believe in, then they should do what they think is the right
> >course of action, even if they cannot succeed. How can there be a blood
> >bath? Is the insurgency strong enough to cause a bloodbath, not very
> >likely....
>
> The US departs and Iraq becomes sectarian central with the Shia,
> Sunni, Kurd, etc: going at it. Don't forget there's no central
> government. Then add in one part Iran, one part Saudi Arabia, and one
> part Turkey and the entire region's in flames. Musharraf then falls in
> Pakistan (a probability in the very near future) and you get the
> perfect storm. That doesn't even take Afghanistan into account. Look
> what Wee Georgie has wrought. And who do you think the geopolitical
> winner is? Take a guess.
Actually, the projections are that Iraq would split into three countries.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/16/AR2007071601680.html
Tuesday, July 17, 2007
If U.S. combat forces withdraw from Iraq in the near future, three
developments would be likely to unfold. Majority Shiites would drive
Sunnis out of ethnically mixed areas west to Anbar province. Southern
Iraq would erupt in civil war between Shiite groups. And the Kurdish
north would solidify its borders and invite a U.S. troop presence there.
In short, Iraq would effectively become three separate nations.
That was the conclusion reached in recent "war games" exercises conducted
for the U.S. military by retired Marine Col. Gary Anderson. "I honestly
don't think it will be apocalyptic," said Anderson, who has served in Iraq
and now works for a major defense contractor. But "it will be ugly."
...