The Abortion Debate. A Cultural View VS A Personal View.

[Jeezy]

Yeah but what happens when that child grows older and finds out that they are the product of rape or incest? They would be mentally traumatised. Not only incest wrong its illegal. The courts let alone children welfare agencies, would not allow a incest pregnancy to go ahead (well here anyway I don't know where the Americans stand on incest laws).

Yeah it's illegal.

But if it happens...there's still no need to kill the baby. I think they have to give it away after birth.
I heard of cases and they had to give the babies to other families. And also mostly the man had to go to jail.

 

[woodyloveslinkin]

What about just aborting the baby altogether for the mother's sake after having sex with her own father?
I am sure as eggs I wouldn't want to give birth to child, even if I still had the choice of putting it up for adoption after the birth, if the father was my own father. Even knowing that its father is my own, is enough to send chills down my spine.
God. Reminds me of an incest couple in Tasmania.

 

[Jeezy]

What about just aborting the baby altogether for the mother's sake after having sex with her own father?
I am sure as eggs I wouldn't want to give birth to child, even if I still had the choice of putting it up for adoption after the birth, if the father was my own father. Even knowing that its father is my own, is enough to send chills down my spine.
God. Reminds me of an incest couple in Tasmania.

But incest is not the same as rape....

and incest can also be between brother and sister....they don't do it against their will.
of course it's totally sick....but it happens

 

[Hazi[LP]Tonz]

jeezy,like i said,what if YOU were on the end of a rape and fell pregnant? what about if you had an incest father/brother but resented it deeply? if you were pregnant would you REALLY go and give birth to the baby if you had the choice? its just plain stupidity if you just say to someone in that situation..."go on,carry the baby for another 9 mths", there is so much trauma when people are raped, same with incest, you think making them carry a constant reminder for 9mths is going to help them? its not helpin the situation, its turning a blind eye to the mother and just plain stupidity if you do not at least consider the woman giving birth

also jeezy,what if YOU found out you were born out of rape/incest? would YOU be happy? you cant HONESTLY say you'd be "dandy" and "normal" if you were carrying a painful scar like that, your own flesh and blood gave you away(as you said), or if they did continue to raise you, YOU are just a constant reminder of one of the darkest moments in their lives

lets go abit further, what if your wife or gf or sister or even your daughter were raped and they fell pregnant,hmm jeezy? would you HONEST TO GOD, turn a blind eye away from their torment,their pain and say,"look,you're having the baby", are you THAT insensitive? are you THAT naiive that they would be fine after this ordeal? you wouldnt want to be raising SOMEONE ELSE's baby would you jeez? have an illegitamate brother if it was ur mum? have your daughter suffer?

am i hitting it too close to home? you hafto remember EVERY woman that is raped is either a mother,a daughter, a sister, an aunt...etc it hits VERY close to home
am i making my point?

 

[Jeezy]

also jeezy,what if YOU found out you were born out of rape/incest? would YOU be happy? you cant HONESTLY say you'd be "dandy" and "normal" if you were carrying a painful scar like that, your own flesh and blood gave you away(as you said), or if they did continue to raise you, YOU are just a constant reminder of one of the darkest moments in their lives

I wouldn't be happy.

But I would still be alive...that's the important thing.

 

[Hazi[LP]Tonz]

honestly, thats just so silly, could you HONESTLY think that life is worth living if there was no happiness in it? do you think any drug, friend or loved one will really mask whats going on beneath? this is a pain that is deeper than any bullet wound, then any rejection, this is your OWN mother, your entire life, this isnt going to go away in 10 days or 10 years, this is with you for the REST OF YOUR LIFE, just because you THINK you might be alive, but living through a personal hell is worse than any death sentence you can put on someone

do you NOT think of the pain your mother would have gone through? of what became of her? sure you might be alive....but at what cost? and for how long? anyone can say they are alive, but are they really living if theres no happiness in their life?

 

[Jeezy]

honestly, thats just so silly, could you HONESTLY think that life is worth living if there was no happiness in it? do you think any drug, friend or loved one will really mask whats going on beneath? this is a pain that is deeper than any bullet wound, then any rejection, this is your OWN mother, your entire life, this isnt going to go away in 10 days or 10 years, this is with you for the REST OF YOUR LIFE, just because you THINK you might be alive, but living through a personal hell is worse than any death sentence you can put on someone

do you NOT think of the pain your mother would have gone through? of what became of her? sure you might be alive....but at what cost? and for how long? anyone can say they are alive, but are they really living if theres no happiness in their life?

why would there be no happiness?

Do you think that people are not able to get over it?
Honestly if I would be in that situation I would of course think about it....but I would be able to forget it. Because in the end nothing bad happened to me...I wouldn't have had this kind of traumathical experience.

 

[Hazi[LP]Tonz]

people CAN get over it, but do they?generally no, yes, there might be ur great 60 minute story about survival, but what of everyone else? if people are able to get over things so easily, why are there such arguments? "oh the child will get over it, its nly his fricken mother that got raped, shes till alive right?", or "oh gee, i was born an illegitmate child given away at birth because my mother couldnt bare the site of me because it reminded her of a tragic event, gee,ill just get over it", people dont get over things easily, no matter how trivial, its a BIG congratulations to you if you could, but we're not as "iron willed,ill live through this no matter what" as you, just becasue one person can make it rhrough a traumatic event doesnt mean the rest of us mere mortals can

and answer my above post, what if it was a family member caught with this decision? like a wife,gf,sister,mother? what would you do? could you REALLY look them between the eyes and tell them to go though with it even if they wanted to abort? are you THAT selfish?

because, hell, YOU didnt go through that traumatic expierence, you'd be able to forget it, you could move on

right Jeezy?

 

[Jeezy]

people CAN get over it, but do they?generally no, yes, there might be ur great 60 minute story about survival, but what of everyone else? if people are able to get over things so easily, why are there such arguments? "oh the child will get over it, its nly his fricken mother that got raped, shes till alive right?", or "oh gee, i was born an illegitmate child given away at birth because my mother couldnt bare the site of me because it reminded her of a tragic event, gee,ill just get over it", people dont get over things easily, no matter how trivial, its a BIG congratulations to you if you could, but we're not as "iron willed,ill live through this no matter what" as you, just becasue one person can make it rhrough a traumatic event doesnt mean the rest of us mere mortals can

and answer my above post, what if it was a family member caught with this decision? like a wife,gf,sister,mother? what would you do? could you REALLY look them between the eyes and tell them to go though with it even if they wanted to abort? are you THAT selfish?

because, hell, YOU didnt go through that traumatic expierence, you'd be able to forget it, you could move on

right Jeezy?

the thing is you don't kow my background and what stuff happened in my family....so I think I can judge the situation from another point of view.

But you might understand that I don't want to go into details with that.

And as I said if someone want's to abbort because of a rape/incest...it's totally cool with me

 

[Lyson]

wow...alot of opinions here but its a touchy subject in society.

personal view for me...I would get an abortion in a heart beat if I EVER fell pregnant. I Never want to kids so there would be no issue.
BUt i wouldn't be stupid or careless about getting pregnant as I have not yet and I dont plan to, and luckily for me my Bf doesn't want kids so if it ever happens he'll support me in getting rid of it.

or the baby...whatever.

I think its totally up to the mother anyway what she wants to do when pregnant because she has to carry the child to term and deal with the misery (or joy) that comes with being pregnant. I dont think girls should take advantage of the abortion clinics and treat it like a regular day clinic, but at any rate if they do their ultimatley ****ing themselves up in the end.

Incest, the child should be aborted if the mother doesn't want it. Chances are the baby wont be right anyway and why let it suffer, and if it is right why let it find out one day its considered an abomination in society.

Rape...thats all up to the woman in the situation, some woman haven't regretted keeping babies born out of rape, some have.

These are all my opinions though...and in all honesty, why would anyone want to bring up a child in todays world, thats torture alone for the child lol.

But never the less, it should be a decision made based on how the mother/woman feels, at the end of the day its her gift or burden to bare, right?

 

[Jeezy]

^^so...you would just kill a life like that just because you don't want to have a baby?

 

[Lyson]

...me...i would, but a baby in its earliest stages is not really a life.
Its kinda like if a tumor grows on you...get rid of it before its too late XD

BUt i would make the effort not to have a baby... :]

 

[GraDoN]

well all i can say is that (if i was female, which thank goodness, im not) if i was to get a abortion i would never be able to get over it since its murder. But i would also never judge a person if she did it.

 

[Lyson]

well all i can say is that (if i was female, which thank goodness, im not) if i was to get a abortion i would never be able to get over it since its murder. But i would also never judge a person if she did it.

see, now thats good.
Have your own feelings but be able to not stand in judgement of someone who doesn't feel the same way.:thumbsup:

 

[Hazi[LP]Tonz]

like lysons said, a baby in its early phase isnt technically life, no matter which way u look at it, it hasnt expierienced anything, it hasnt taken any first breaths, however a mother has lived years already, if we look at it from any angle, in most cases a woman will find out shes having a baby before the baby has fully developed "legally", so in a way, under current laws, if a mother DID have an abortion(whether legal or illegal) its not constituted as murder

and jeezy, im not trying to pry, im just saying, what if your own family was in a position where they had an unwanted pregnancy(like many people already, and not just rape) and they wanted to get rid of it(because if they WANTED the baby,why would people bother to argue?)? because this is a debate about personal choice against prejudice of culture, its all good and easy to say "i know my own family and all the circumstances" etc etc because i'v seen it first hand, a mother who wouldnt give up the baby for the world but was pushed very close to aborting so that she and her husband could push forward long enough to earn enough for a) themselves to survive, then b) to properly take care of the baby, and no i may not be able to judge from ur point of view, the point of my post was to ask for a general opinion if you WERE caught in a situation like that, you seem hell bent on the "the baby has a life" while forgetting who has to give birth to it

i know myself id allow for personal choice, it, for ALL tense and purposes, SHOULD be up to the mother, because SHE carries it, she NURTURES it, she may well ultimately end up caring for it, who are we as guys to tell what a woman what to do? or if that very least, allow, like i've said, a flexible law which allows for leeway, whichever it way it may go


the rape/incest thing is done, we all seem to agree to SOME degree that this should be allowed as an "exception" to the non-abortion thing.

in other new, there are LARGE calls for the morning-after pill(essentially a "flush the semen" pill) to be free. in a survey it was found alot of women( i dont recall how many exactly, but roughly 1/2) would fall unexpectedly pregnant or would hafto deal with some form of situation like it in their lives, and with a seemingly alarming increase in teenage unwanted pregnancies, that this was a big step to solving that solution of unwanted pregnancies as well as abandoned/orphaned, extra strain a baby puts on the family as well as allowing the mother extra time in life to prepare for a proper pregnancy

 

[Clogz]

If you have sex, you will always have the chance of getting pregnant. No amount of rubber, chemicals, and speed (in pulling out) will prevent nature from running its course should you slip up.

We, as human beings, should be genetically engineered to pigmented tattoos above our crotches that say - WARNING: Sex causes babies

Seriously, though. I think abortion is sick, wrong, and irresponsible. I honestly don't comperehend this whole "they aren't really alive because they are just a clump of cells" business. A patch of skin on my finger is just a clump of cells...my heart valve is just a clump of cells...my gray matter is a clump of cells (and fat, I digress).

Who decides the worth of a clump of cells? Weren't we all just a clump of cells at one point? In some ways, we still are. Who are we to decide the worth of human being?

If you have ever seen Gattaca, at the end of the movie they list some people who would have been genetically re-engineered (and changed as a person) to 'fit the mold'....Albert Einstein, Michaelangelo, Abraham Lincoln, and Stephen Hawking made that list among many others.

What if that baby you abort...what if that baby had grown up and cured cancer? What if that baby grew up to form a band (like LP, for example) that played life-changing music?

How dare somebody give a human being life, then take it away upon realizing they will be more hassle to have than to just kill.

 

[Hazi[LP]Tonz]

thats like saying...what if that baby turns out to be the next vienna struangler? or the next amss murderer in ur home town? what if he/she grows up to take over the world? what if they just played emo music? what if they grew up to invent a new a-bomb? what if they ran over another person somewhere 50 years away while they were drunk? what if they ran into the wrong crowd and just did drugs their whole life? what if...

what if...

people hafto remember that its not jsut genetics that make up a persons brains/mentality etc, it takes nurture as well as nature to turn someone into Einstein, Beethoven etc, you think most musical geiniuses just pick up an instrument and all of a sudden know where the b flat and the c sharp is? interest can only take someone so far

what if...

i'll tell you who should decide what that clump of cells is worth, and it aint you or me, and it hell shouldnt be politicians, it should be the MOTHER, that MOTHER who will carry it, nurture it,feed it etc she, and she alone should be the sole decision maker, whether this is the next einstein or port arthur gunman, the one who will ultimately carry those clumps of cells in her womb, that feed off her nutrients, give her back pains for months, force her out of work for a few months, give her the pain of her life while she forces it out, the decision should be left up to her whether she can go through the process.

 

[Lyson]

thats like saying...what if that baby turns out to be the next vienna struangler? or the next amss murderer in ur home town? what if he/she grows up to take over the world? what if they just played emo music? what if they grew up to invent a new a-bomb? what if they ran over another person somewhere 50 years away while they were drunk? what if they ran into the wrong crowd and just did drugs their whole life? what if...

:thumbsup: i agree, anything can happen

 

[Clogz]

i'll tell you who should decide what that clump of cells is worth, and it aint you or me, and it hell shouldnt be politicians, it should be the MOTHER, that MOTHER who will carry it, nurture it,feed it etc she, and she alone should be the sole decision maker, whether this is the next einstein or port arthur gunman, the one who will ultimately carry those clumps of cells in her womb, that feed off her nutrients, give her back pains for months, force her out of work for a few months, give her the pain of her life while she forces it out, the decision should be left up to her whether she can go through the process.

Wow. You are right. Fetuses are nothing but parasites.:-|

But I, once being a fetus, would have to say that it is very sad that in the global mindset of 'me me me', we have even extended that to killing unborn children simply because they get in the way.

Like I said before, no sex = no babies = no problems. Almost every pro-choicer I have met has an active sex life. The only reason these people want it this way is because they have a personal, and selfish, stake in it.

 

[Hazi[LP]Tonz]

well what you are saying and what im implying are completely different things.

and you,as a fetus, would not have had any thoughts on the matter, you as a fetus wouldnt have been able to comprehend whats happening 10cm ahead of you let alone whats happening in the "big bad world", and this "global" mindset of "me me me" has been around for...well...forever? even now, i dont think you comprehend whats happening out there, grow up, its not all sunshine and daisys out there, we all live for ourselves, EVEN YOU LIVE FOR YOURSELF, you are no mother theresea, dont go preaching that you are

and when is killing a fetus(lets extend those who take the morning pill) getting in the way? yes, for some it is a personal issue, but then again, what about for those who were raped? those the victims of incest? thats the stupidest thing iv heard, you seem to be the selfish one here, you're gonna stand there,eyeball a rape victim and say "no, no abortion", you hafto realise what unwanted pregnancies mean for people, you think no sex is going to work? you going to go out there and preach "no sex" and people will magically realise this? EVERYONE knows that no sex=no pregnancies, and yet babies still appear...wowsers

i'm pro choice, i wouldnt exactly say i have the most 'active' sex life.yes im a tad young, but regardless, my ideas arent "selfish", i dont have a pregnant gf i want to ditch, theres very little chance of me getting pregnant, and yet im "pro choice", go figure right?

this stupid statement of "only killing the unborn for selfish reasons", like i said, what about rape victims? what about pre-teen rape?what about incest? id think that the fetus represents something a LITTLE more than a hump in the road dont you think? and i suppose it WOULD be selfish of them wouldnt it? but then again, they DID just go through one of the worst ordeals in their life, imagine a teenager in high school is raped and falls pregnant, what happens then? not to mention the psychological and physical damage, she now has to contend with a baby, what of her education? her dreams? what do you think will happen?

what if i, as a guy, masturbates, arent i just getting rid of semen? one half of an essential part of the building blocks to a baby? arent i just "killing" babies? does that make me a mass murderer then? am i just being selfish? essentially i am getting rid of "possible einsteins and cancer curers" arent i? shouldnt it apply to guys too? that if women cant be allowed to stop the egg production, guys shouldnt be allowed to just dump the millions of sperm evertime they knock one off? but thats silly right? even a tad selfish?

heres a solution, BE in the situation, SEE how much a woman sufffers when she doesnt want a pregnancy, REALiSE what ramifications it has on HER life, how MUCH it changes things, its EASY for you to say whatever you want when it doesnt affect you and you lead your your life with your false morality, lets see what you would do when someone close to you is caught in a situation(regardless of selfish or not) like choosing to abort,for WHATEVER reason