The Abortion Debate. A Cultural View VS A Personal View.

[FireHawk]

July 3, 2006 I made a topic search there if you want my opionion


http://www.linkinparkforums.com/showthread.php?t=12631&highlight=abortion

 

[woodyloveslinkin]

You mean after 6 months, then its murder. The law defines the distinction between 'life' and 'that which is not yet life' in terms of gestation, contrary to some personal opinions, like I said.
Look, there are double standards throughout society, murder of course paramount (like the laws that sentence some killers to death for the very same thing, different MO), doctors notwithstanding. remember that doctor that went to jail for helping his patients to die (Euthanasia)? Though he took an oath to save lives he can legally choose to do so in an abortion. Both are technically murder, the difference being, one has a license to kill, regardless of his Hippocratic oath, the other has a license to save lives and by defying that is also defying the law. Hypocritical laws I say.

The act of abortion itself literally is neither humane nor legally sanctioned in all parts of the world. As was suggested ideally it would be best if we could agree to let situation and extenuating circumstances dictate the process of abortion - but the reason we have laws is by and large to keep the general flock in line. Leave the gate open too much and people will wander out of that proverbial yard the government likes to keep on its citizens and then we leave ourselves open to martial law, worst case scenario. There will always be exceptions to every rule. Just because some cultures don't believe in practising safe sex with condoms doesn't mean the rest of us don't either. It's principally up to government and legislation to control whether we agree with it or not. I do not, but that's the society we live in. We elect the officials that make up these dumb laws, ultimately we decide what's right and wrong en masse.
Look, there will always be people that will do what they want regardless the laws and go out and get illegal abortions if their laws deny it. That's human nature I think. I am all for that. You should have a choice. But in saying that understand that what you kill isn't a faceless thing it's another person, whether dumb, deformed, diseased or unwanted. Abortion is personal choice, it's freedom of choice, but don't deny at its most basic it's still murder.

And just for the record, yes I eat chicken eggs too (also heard referred to as chicken fetuses) :lol:
Cruelty to animals? Please. Unless you are a strict vegan don't go there. I hate unnecessary cruelty to animals too but I know when I eat a steak what that cow went through in the slaughter house and when I eat an egg just what that chicken growing up stuffed in a cramped cage has gone through in order to feed me. The chicken doesn't get a choice there either... damn... this could go on and on forever! But you get the idea...

I think too much emphasis is put on the argument of when a life is a life. If you see life as starting at a 6 month gestating fetus then so be it. If someone stabs the mother of that 6 month gestating fetus and kills the baby he/she's a murderer. Why? Because someone says a baby at 6 months is worth more than a life at 6 weeks. I scoff at that. But that's my opinion. Why then do mothers grieve when they miscarry if they haven't lost a life at whatever stage during the pregnancy?

A law was passed recently in australia that gave justice to mothers that have been attacked by idiots and the end result they had lost their child from the assult etc etc.

But the question comes down to can we justify a miscarriage as murder or an accidental death? Miscarriages can occur with a deliberate attempt to kill the child and disguise it as an accident. But in the cases of such mothers as the one that lost her child in the bathroom in Royal North Shore in Sydney a couple of months, it's an accident. It's not considered murder. Well that case.

But the question comes down to, at what stage do we socially accept the embryo to be a living thing?

 

[Jeezy]

I´d rather see them in jail, where they can die slowly

yeah but there's always a chance they'll get out of jail somehow

 

[Breakdown Conspiracy]

babies dont murder now do they?

MayBE! lol

Ahh I think this issue is rather simple, well to me anyway. If you don't want to get pregnant just don't have ****ing sex!!!! I mean really that is what it is for, apart from enjoying sexy times with the apparent boyfriend that you think you are madly in love with at that drunk-fest of a party, is reproducing human kind.

Sex=Pregnancy=Babies

Or I mean geez, just then use a strong condom or go on the pill or something.

SIMPLE

EDIT: Sorry if I just sounded like a jerk or something, I just think its an easy question.

 

[GraDoN]

MayBE! lol

Ahh I think this issue is rather simple, well to me anyway. If you don't want to get pregnant just don't have ****ing sex!!!! I mean really that is what it is for, apart from enjoying sexy times with the apparent boyfriend that you think you are madly in love with at that drunk-fest of a party, is reproducing human kind.

Sex=Pregnancy=Babies

Or I mean geez, just then use a strong condom or go on the pill or something.

SIMPLE

EDIT: Sorry if I just sounded like a jerk or something, I just think its an easy question.

jerk or not tis true BC :>

 

[woodyloveslinkin]

Well. To every good thing there comes consquences and responsibilites.

 

[Hazi[LP]Tonz]

i gotta say jeezy, i am 100% against that post of yours, we got to have a look at the state of the mother before we can say.."look,ur having the baby,but we can give it away later"

especially in cases of rape/incest, THAT baby in her womb is a CONSTANT reminder of the pain she went through, and she'll hafto go through with it until the 9th month to get rid of that painful reminder, 9 months jeezy, its easy for us guys to say this kinda thing, but could u imagine what the mother would be going through? shes been raped,instead of getting a chacne to move on with her life she hasto carry a child,which she didnt want to have in the first place, to a guy she didnt want to have it with, for the next 9 months, thats pure hell, being constantly reminded of what happened, of course tehres also natures own pain for mothers, morning sickness, back pain, theres also the fact someone hasto look after her because she wouldnt exactly be 100% mentally right would she, and giving birth is pain in itself, ask any mother

then we hafta look at that baby too, it was fathered illegally,illegimately, it was unwanted by its own mother, theres very little chacne the dad would want it, it goes through the pblic system, sure, there are great famillies that will take care of it, but it wont ever know the true love from its true parents, and then what happens one day*say it DID get into a beautifully happy foster home*, what happens when he/she finds out it was fathered during a rape, its mother having to go through hell to give birth to it then not wanting it, thats a new kind of hell, know matter what anyone says, when your own flesh and blood rejects you, it leaves a LARGE and attimes dark impression on the person

breakdown, its not as easy as just "using a condom" or "taking the pill", taking any form of drugs leave you with side effects(iv learnt that from only my first term of pharmacy) and i have friends who choose to avoid the pill for whatever reason-you gotta also realise also girls who go on the pill have the rents to deal with,even if, and condoms wont give you 100% protection, and its in the heat of the moment, people arent going to rationally stop mid way and realise..."holy ****, wheres the 20 condoms i was going slap on my wang before having sex", and you gotta remember, sex is a part of human nature, its not something you just get rid of, "oh yeah, jsut stop having sex"

 

[Breakdown Conspiracy]

breakdown, its not as easy as just "using a condom" or "taking the pill", taking any form of drugs leave you with side effects(iv learnt that from only my first term of pharmacy) and i have friends who choose to avoid the pill for whatever reason-you gotta also realise also girls who go on the pill have the rents to deal with,even if, and condoms wont give you 100% protection, and its in the heat of the moment, people arent going to rationally stop mid way and realise..."holy ****, wheres the 20 condoms i was going slap on my wang before having sex", and you gotta remember, sex is a part of human nature, its not something you just get rid of, "oh yeah, jsut stop having sex"

Im not saying use a condom or go on the pill, and I know how stressfull and unacommidating it can be. And you say its human nature, yea i just pointed that out in my previous post.

Well. To every good thing there comes consquences and responsibilites.

For once i agree with a post of yours.

 

[Jeezy]

i gotta say jeezy, i am 100% against that post of yours, we got to have a look at the state of the mother before we can say.."look,ur having the baby,but we can give it away later"

especially in cases of rape/incest, THAT baby in her womb is a CONSTANT reminder of the pain she went through, and she'll hafto go through with it until the 9th month to get rid of that painful reminder, 9 months jeezy, its easy for us guys to say this kinda thing, but could u imagine what the mother would be going through? shes been raped,instead of getting a chacne to move on with her life she hasto carry a child,which she didnt want to have in the first place, to a guy she didnt want to have it with, for the next 9 months, thats pure hell, being constantly reminded of what happened, of course tehres also natures own pain for mothers, morning sickness, back pain, theres also the fact someone hasto look after her because she wouldnt exactly be 100% mentally right would she, and giving birth is pain in itself, ask any mother

I understand that.

But don't you think it's also a bad thing for a girl to go through the process of removing that unborn child after she was raped? I mean that's probably painfull too.

But ok...in case of rape it should be allowed that the mother stops the pregnancy if she want's to.

breakdown, its not as easy as just "using a condom" or "taking the pill", taking any form of drugs leave you with side effects(iv learnt that from only my first term of pharmacy) and i have friends who choose to avoid the pill for whatever reason-you gotta also realise also girls who go on the pill have the rents to deal with,even if, and condoms wont give you 100% protection, and its in the heat of the moment, people arent going to rationally stop mid way and realise..."holy ****, wheres the 20 condoms i was going slap on my wang before having sex", and you gotta remember, sex is a part of human nature, its not something you just get rid of, "oh yeah, jsut stop having sex"

It's easy to use a condom and for girls there are other methods that won't have side effects like the pill...and yeah sex is a part of the human nature..but if you do it and you don't use protection than you should be able to live with the consequences.

 

[woodyloveslinkin]

Im not saying use a condom or go on the pill, and I know how stressfull and unacommidating it can be. And you say its human nature, yea i just pointed that out in my previous post.



For once i agree with a post of yours.

But as part of, you fall pregnant, you should always have the choice to abort it if you don't feel like you can't go through with it for personal/medical reasons, especially teenage pregnancies.

 

[Jeezy]

But as part of, you fall pregnant, you should always have the choice to abort it if you don't feel like you can't go through with it for personal/medical reasons, especially teenage pregnancies.

That should only be aloud if there's a serious risk that it wil kill you

 

[Hazi[LP]Tonz]

the aborton process is relatively pain free, and can be done basically straight away, even when mothers have miscarriages, its not painful(in a physical manner that is)(not trying to comapre the two), where as the mental pain coupled with child birth is a helluva lot to go through, iuts too much mental anguish, jeezy,put it this way, after a paticulary nasty incident, would you like to be constantly reminded of it for the next 9 months of your life? in a way the same can be said of pregnancies, people make errors, they try to move on, not be constantly reminded of them, and i know the baby doesnt really have a say in this....but like i spose...whichever side you take, or whichever argument you put to the table, its gonna go to hell

 

[GraDoN]

Well. To every good thing there comes consquences and responsibilites.

true that, and getting an abortion should not be a easy way out of it........ cause it murder. the way i see it, there is no difference between murdering a person and aborting a baby.

 

[allieking]

jerk or not tis true BC :>

couldn't have said it better!!!

 

[Hazi[LP]Tonz]

and to me gradon, theres no difference between torturing someone and making a woman who doesnt want the pregnancy make her carry it for 9mths and then making her give birth to it

 

[Jeezy]

and to me gradon, theres no difference between torturing someone and making a woman who doesnt want the pregnancy make her carry it for 9mths and then making her give birth to it

It always depends on why she doesn't want the pregnancy

 

[Hazi[LP]Tonz]

that is indeed true, and it stresses my point in my frist post, that we really need a flexible system, and not just one rule that purely says YES or NO, because while we have rules that tell us YES you can have an abortion or a plain NO you cannot, its always gonna raise debate and it only hurts those who cannot get the procedure or it further peeves off people when people are only having abortions because "they dont want to have a baby", but even then, everyone hasto realise that its still torturing for any woman who has had ANY unwanted pregnancy

my cousin was starting off ehr small business with her husband when she fell unexpectantly pregnant, now she cant just go closing her business or entrust it to anyone else only a few months into the business starting, her husband was more of the labor person and she was the brains, she had to make a choice between her baby and the business, she wasnt rich either, so it made her decision even harder,after delaying her decision, she ended up leaving the business to take care of the baby, while living with barely enough to feed the family, now i spsoe things are good that the business shes running now is ok and that her child can go to school adn everything, but it was really tough on them, you cant just force a mother to go one way or the other

i can understand the whole.."but this baby has a life", but remember, the baby has not expierienced anythin, it hasnt had its first breath, its probably not anywhere near into its development, and by no means is its life guaranteed when a mother decides to have the abortion, so to brand ANY woman a murderer,which is what gradon is essentially doing, is just plain wrong, what if it was a close family member of your own family like myself forced to go through that decision? what if it was your own wife?you cant force her to have the baby,you cant just take the moral high ground because you hafto look at everything, tings such as money play a big part, whats the point of bringing a baby into this world if you cant provide for it? give it away? but its YOUR child...

 

[woodyloveslinkin]

true that, and getting an abortion should not be a easy way out of it........ cause it murder. the way i see it, there is no difference between murdering a person and aborting a baby.

Even in the cases of incest and rape?

 

[Jeezy]

Even in the cases of incest

well...just because the parents are brother and sister the baby doesn't have the right to live?
I mean there are chances that the baby won't be healthy in cases of incest...but still those children have a right to live.

 

[woodyloveslinkin]

Yeah but what happens when that child grows older and finds out that they are the product of rape or incest? They would be mentally traumatised. Not only incest wrong its illegal. The courts let alone children welfare agencies, would not allow a incest pregnancy to go ahead (well here anyway I don't know where the Americans stand on incest laws).
In cases of rape, why would a woman want to go with a child that was the product of being voilated in the first place? The last thing a woman wants is a living replica of the man that voilated her.