The whole gay thing.

[Jhony5]

Posted by Ctrl:

So... you are vaulting that ALL of Greek society was NATURALLY predisposed to homosexual behavior... LMFAO... please... dear God... show your source for this "FACT" (laughs loudly at you).

Actually I believe Hugo to be right on this. Little boys were considered beautiful sexual playtoys by their culture. I've seen Greek artifacts depicting men with little boys. There were other Greek subcultures that practiced this same behavior. The Ancient Greek practice of boylove was known as paiderastia, and yes, it was perfectly legal.

 

[Ctrl]

I know it took place, I was the one who brought it up, my argument is that it is not GENETIC but socially influenced behavior.

 

[Jhony5]

I know it took place, I was the one who brought it up, my argument is that it is not GENETIC but socially influenced behavior.

Ahh. Ya, genetic pre-disposition to buggery of boys. Ya I'm with ya on that. I agree.

Where did Hugo say homosexuality was a genetic trait in Greeks? I missed that part.

Lastly, Jhony... I don't want a spell checker. If I am called on my errors, I am less likely to make them in the future. I don't want to depend on things to fix things for me, it is slower, and makes me lazy. I want to be faster, and improve.

I'm not the strongest speller in the world, but most of my mis-spells came by way of typo. Either from trying to watch TV late at night or just being stoned and tired. I got so sick of constructing well thought out rebuttals, only to have the only response be "You spelled xxxxx incorrectly".

And the spell-check link was meant for M60, actully.

 

[Ctrl]

The fact is gayness is almost certainly a combination of nature and nurture. It ain't one or the other.

It is one or the other.

 

[Jhony5]

Ya, I don't think its possible to teach or learn sexual preference. It either gets your dick hard, or it doesn't.
This is the reason why rehabilitating pedophiles is not possible. You could not possibly reprogram someone to adopt a new sexual preference, anymore than you could teach one.

 

[Ctrl]

We DO teach and learn sexual preference is the point. You think pedophiles jump out of the woodwork wanting to bang kids? No. They were ALL ****ING ABUSED. You are contradicting yourself if you are now saying that you think all the greeks were BORN into buggery. It was a socially influenced deviance from natural order... Why is this so hard to wrap your heads around? It is almost ALWAYS an issue of upbringing, sexual trauma, and social acceptance or defiance.

How many out of the closet gays do you know that werent diddled as kids? I guarantee you that any ones you know who weren't, look androgenous as hell. ASK THEM... as phantom eluded to, there is a checklist. Completely socially influenced. None of the ingredients insure that you will be gay, but 99% of gays are made of these social ingredients...

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that it is just possible, that what HAS BEEN TAUGHT TO YOU IS WRONG. That political correctness mandates that we do NOT study the possible, and somewhat OBVIOUS influence of social behavior on homosexuality. That before we go off letting schools teach the ACCEPTANCE of behavior that is quite possibly damaging and definitely anti-social... WE DO SOME BASIC MATH.

I don't give a **** if you suck dick dude... but ffs... I am not going to pretend that it does not have a cause and a predictable negative outcome. For you to do so is cowardly, and intellectually dishonest. Please... by all means... refute my claims. Show me how Greek society was genetically predisposed to this behavior, which was not limited to young boys, though they were favored, but adult men as well.

 

[hugo]

Posted by Hugo:Boy I don't know, Hugo. That seems a bit of a leap doesn't it? If I were to paraphrase that I would do it as follows. Individual liberty includes the liberty to deny others of their liberty. Being granted unlimited freedom to deny others of their freedom sounds counter productive to a progressive social structure.

If this sort of "freedom" was granted, would it not transfer to emergency and authority structures? i.e. police, firefighters, ambulance services, port authorities. Than what? Sounds like one step up from anarchism too me.

No it would not transfer to government bodies. Equal protection under the law prohibits government and its employees while doing their duties from discriminating. If you choose to work in the public sector you can not discriminate in your working hours.

If you work for the private sector you should apply your employers standards. If you work for a restaurant and the employer does not want you to serve a certain ethnic group then you should discriminate or quit. Similarly if your employer requires you to serve everyone regardless of race, religion or creed that is your duty. Since it is the employers private property being utilized he should be able to pick his clientele. Just like you can discriminate who you allow in your private home. It is a principle our founding fathers recognized as the right of association. A principle ignored by both Jim Crow laws and many civil rights laws. You should have the right to control who accesses your private property, a basic fundamental right.

Yep, there will be some clubs, restaurants, etc. that serve a niche racist market. I'd rather be banned from eating at a restaurant than have someone tamper with my food.

 

[Jhony5]

Posted by Ctrl:

They were ALL ****ING ABUSED.

That is a completely sweeping generalization and completely untrue. Nothing but an excuse in some cases. For many, its just a stimuli they adopted.

You are contradicting yourself if you are now saying that you think all the Greeks were BORN into buggery.

I never said that. In the case of ancient Greece, it was a social issue.

How many out of the closet gays do you know that werent diddled as kids? I guarantee you that any ones you know who weren't, look androgenous as hell. ASK THEM... as phantom eluded to, there is a checklist. Completely socially influenced. None of the ingredients insure that you will be gay, but 99% of gays are made of these social ingredients...

I think the problem here is your trying to find a singular cause for homosexuality. In many cases I would think its just how it is. As a pubescent teen they saw a Hustler magazine and it was the pictures of men that turned them on, thus spawning the realization that they are gay. Granted, this is an unnatural attraction, but an attraction nonetheless. I bet if you run down that same checklist with 100 hetero people, they would score quite high. And to say 99% of gays are made of these social ingredients is overstating your case.

How many out of the closet gays do you know that werent diddled as kids?

Ummm...ermmm...if they're in the closet, then I'm not privy to their dirty little secret. Thus making your question mute.

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that it is just possible, that what HAS BEEN TAUGHT TO YOU IS WRONG.

I always question what has been taught to me. I never take a bite without knowing what I'm eating.

Show me how Greek society was genetically predisposed to this behavior

AGAIN, I never flippin said this. I said the opposite of this. Ancient Greece was quite different than modern America. So to draw parallels between the two concerning social behaviors influencing homosexual behavior, is asinine. Ancient Greece society allowed for pedophilia to remain socially acceptable, which tips the scales.

Genetics do not determine sexual preference. That does not mean that if your gay, it is a learned response due to your social environment. Genetics determine your hair color, your eye color etc. Genetics do not always give you your sense of humor or any other behavioral traits.

Allow me to clarify, as I'm getting the impression you believe that people must think either X or Y.

I do not believe genetics determine sexual orientation. I do not believe your environment (social influence) determines sexual orientation. I believe its just a random configuration of the mind. Not genetically encoded, rather an anomaly.

I am not going to pretend that it does not have a cause and a predictable negative outcome.

A cause? Its not like catching a cold. You can't catch gayness. You either get off on **** and balls, or you do not. Sure, theres plenty of people that were molested by their Uncle nasty and eventually this caused homosexual emulation. Possibly even preference. Like a learned response mechanism. But to generalize as to a "cause" for the majority of gays is irresponsible.


As too your references to ancient Greece. I think theres an entirely different social stimulus behind that.

 

[hugo]

Let me address the Greek issue. First, most Greek homosexuality depicted is between a older dominant male and a submissive adolescent male. Adult ma,es who had a homosexual relationship with other adult males were subjected to ridicule. Aristophanes mocked them on more than onr occassion. Most older dominant males also had wives, they were strictly homosexual.

The fact that the rate of homosexual activity varies among cultures does not prove that genes do not have a role. In societies where homosexuality is not repressed, as it is in cultures influenced by Abrahamic religions, there will be more homosexuality. No one argues that point. Genes only predispose individuals toward certain behaviors. They are not a final determinant of your behavior. I cannot point what in my upbringing led me to believe that there was something very attractive about Raquel Welch in One Million Years B.C. I was 9 at the time I saw the movie.

No one argues that diabetes is often hereditary in nature and can often be controlled through a proper diet.

 

[Ctrl]

Posted by Ctrl:That is a completely sweeping generalization and completely untrue. Nothing but an excuse in some cases. For many, its just a stimuli they adopted.

Adopted? For what cause? Does it get them less jail? Does it make the kids feel better? No. It is a sweeping TRUISM. You disregard the overwhelming, and I am in the deep decimal points of the 99%, of pedophiles who acknowledge that they were themselves victimized at some point? On what authority do you divine the ability to do so? What is your source? **** that. Stating a thing isn't true doesn't make it so. Yes I spoke in absolutes, which is normally just a silly thing to do, but in this case justifiable only because of the overwhelming nature of the majority for whom it is true. I have never heard of one who didn't, and my best friend is in the business of counsiling them during incarceration. She isn't big on excuses. You don't want me to bring HER here. She isn't nice.

I never said that. In the case of ancient Greece, it was a social issue.

you said...

Ya, I don't think its possible to teach or learn sexual preference. It either gets your dick hard, or it doesn't.

Either it is environmental (learned behavior) or you are simply born liking it or not liking it (genetically predisposed) or both. If you say both, then the genetic animal MUST pre-exist... ergo all Greece was predisposed to it. I don't know how you can argue both sides.

I think the problem here is your trying to find a singular cause for homosexuality.

I said from the beginning that I believe that there IS a genetic predisposition, but that the vast majority in this society are NOT predisposed.

Ummm...ermmm...if they're in the closet, then I'm not privy to their dirty little secret. Thus making your question mute.

Moot. I said out of the closet.

So to draw parallels between the two concerning social behaviors influencing homosexual behavior, is asinine. Ancient Greece society allowed for pedophilia to remain socially acceptable, which tips the scales.

The "fear" would be that overbearing tollerance leads to that result again in THIS society... and I am not talking about society... which people don't seem to get... I am arguing AGAINST genetics, by pointing out that this behavior, once accepted, continues to multiply, which debunks the idea of genetic predisposition. It is not assinine to point to evidence to the contrary of your opinion.

Genetics do not determine sexual preference. That does not mean that if your gay, it is a learned response due to your social environment. Genetics determine your hair color, your eye color etc. Genetics do not always give you your sense of humor or any other behavioral traits.

Allow me to clarify, as I'm getting the impression you believe that people must think either X or Y.

Ok... at least I understand a little better now... I am glad you brought up x and y... because there is nothing in our genetic coding that determines, prior to conception, whether or not we are going to have a boy or a girl. Our sex is determined by that Y chromosome during our incubation within the first month. Sometimes the wrong hormones go the wrong way. You get a girl with an influx of boy hormones, a boy with an influx of girl hormones. I FULLY believe that genetic homosexuals exist, and again... for those people I feel empathy, because that has to be difficult to understand within yourself.

A cause? Its not like catching a cold. You can't catch gayness. You either get off on **** and balls, or you do not. Sure, theres plenty of people that were molested by their Uncle nasty and eventually this caused homosexual emulation. Possibly even preference. Like a learned response mechanism. But to generalize as to a "cause" for the majority of gays is irresponsible.

There is a "cause" for everything. You want to not accept that philosophy and call anything you dont understand the genesis of chaos, that is your gig. I don't want to get derailed with chaos theory, but whatever that "magic" anomoly in your brain that triggers whether or not you like guys or girls has a cause, and it is irresponsible NOT to try and figure it out.

First, most Greek homosexuality depicted is between a older dominant male and a submissive adolescent male.

By hollywood maybe. Try google. The soldiers were off at war ****ing eachother in group orgies. The children were generally reserved for officials and the wealthy. Slavery had a much different twist. Everybody was ****ing everybody. Young boys were just the top prize, and women? ****ing women was boring. That is why Sparta fell. They stopped making babies, because they were off ****ing eachother and dying in war without repopulating the lost. That, I can demonstrate.

The fact that the rate of homosexual activity varies among cultures does not prove that genes do not have a role. In societies where homosexuality is not repressed, as it is in cultures influenced by Abrahamic religions, there will be more homosexuality. No one argues that point. Genes only predispose individuals toward certain behaviors.

So your argument is that because it will be unlikely for me to disprove that all of Greece was genetically predisposed to buggery, it is the likely scenario? Come on, you are a smart guy. Do the math. Accept that social primmers decide FOR you whether or not your dick gets hard for a dude. How many hard ass mother****ers in prison do you think jacked off to peewee herman before becoming butt pirates in prison? **** your logic. Be real.

 

[hugo]

The Sparta situation is more akin to prison sex. It involved older men and a submissive warrior in training. They were often away from women for very long periods. They certainly did their share of raping when women were available and the raping was almost exclusively of females. Once again, no one is arguing that environment is not a strong factor in homosexuality just that nature also has a role. So, do you accept the pinko-liberal blank slate theory of human behavior?

Why do you believe there is a high level of lesbianism among women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia?

 

[Jhony5]

I cannot point what in my upbringing led me to believe that there was something very attractive about Raquel Welch in One Million Years B.C. I was 9 at the time I saw the movie.

LOL. Funny, but that does draw an interesting point. Although in my opinion, sexual attraction doesn't seem to have an external cause. The movie didn't make you attracted to her. Just the fact that you saw her, your brain reviewed the image and determined that there was an attraction.

Genes only predispose individuals toward certain behaviors.

True. In some cases I could see how genetics determine the composition of the mind that dictates attraction. However there are many cases I've heard of whereas a son is a homosexual, yet no pattern of homosexuality exist in the family. Nor was there abuse present in the child's upbringing. So what caused the homosexual attraction? He lives in a society that frowns upon homosexuality and receives no social encouragement to be gay.

So what we have is a homosexual man, with no genetic precursor, no social stimulus to encourage "deviant" behavior. Other than the presence of images of males, but this changes nothing. Only it offers an image for the mind to determine if attraction is made.

I think the answer lies it what we, personally, find attractive. Me, I'm attracted to short, petite and often young women. I'm 34 and in the last year I've dated women as young as 18. Was it genetics that gave me this attraction? I think not. Socially I can't say I see what would have caused this specific attraction. It just is what it is.

When I stated that homosexuality is an unnatural compulsion, I did not mean there wasn't a biological reason behind it. Meaning the make-up or rather, the wiring of the brain. By unnatural I meant only to say that homosexuality goes against the natural order of things. i.e. reproduction and the cycle of life.

 

[Ctrl]

So, do you accept the pinko-liberal blank slate theory of human behavior?

You can't put pinko liberal in front of it or I will reflexively vomit hate text. I am not familiar with it, but chances are no. I will research and get back to you.

Why do you believe there is a high level of lesbianism among women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia?

Because when men beat women, it knocks congenital adrenal hyperplasia loose from their brains and introduces it into their system to override the displeasure of the noxious pussies of hairy dykes.

 

[Ctrl]

The Sparta situation is more akin to prison sex.

I don't know if you have been to prison, but I will tell you what they don't want you to know. It isn't just rape... oh that happens... rather a lot... power and control stuff... and a diseased sadism... but they have loving relationships too. No superior, no dominant... gentle, loving relationships. Because (I believe) the brain is wired for it. We need social interaction and love. Without it, we become Royal Orleans. Once it becomes "normal" for same sex love, you run the risk of ruining a society. After all... who is gonna fight in Iraq if there is ****in to be done. Ok... that was a joke. I respect the military and dont want to dissiminate into a war thread.

So you have a very possible bad outcome from social acceptance, and I am not seeing the upside. Plus two dudes kissing in the street is just annoying, and I don't have any desire to tollerate it. I don't want to explain it to my kids. I dont want my 9 yr old boy coming home with a boyfriend from school mimicing that behavior. I believe what I call "genetic" gays don't have a choice and see it as a tortured existence. I don't want my kids emulating that because a bunch of Liza Manelli fans think it is just swell to buck social norms and constraints. I am over my rebellion against authority. I think they are silly and I just don't want it, and am waiting for someone to explain to me why I SHOULD put up with it.

 

[Jhony5]

Moot. I said out of the closet.

Your right, I mis-read this sentence as if there was a break after the word many. My apologies. I'd offer an excuse but I cannot drum one up at this time.

How many out of the closet gays do you know that weren't diddled as kids?

The answer. MANY. Including our esteemed Vortex. If I remember correctly he fielded that question once, and the answer was no. As a matter of fact, I've known or currently know, 8 homosexuals. None of them have ever spoken of sexual abuse. Your assertion that homosexuality is often caused by sexual abuse at the hands of same sex offenders is highly inaccurate.

You disregard the overwhelming, and I am in the deep decimal points of the 99%, of pedophiles who acknowledge that they were themselves victimized at some point?

Human nature when caught doing such an act of depravity is to find an external source of blame. Now, I'm not saying that sexual abuse isn't a contributing factor in many cases of pedophilia. I'm arguing that your statistics are skewed. Pedophilia is an attraction. Just like I'm attracted to younger petite ladies. I was never abused by young petite ladies as a child (unfortunately).
The definition of pedophilia? : sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object Pedophilia is, by definition, a sexual attraction to prepubescent or peripubescant children. However, not all pedophiles act on their compulsion. I assert that for your outrageous figure of 99% to be anywhere near true, it would only apply to those whom actually offend. The social stimulus or cause of their compulsion to offend? The fact that they themselves were abused which gave a warped just cause to act on it.
So when I said this>>>

Originally Posted by Jhony5
I don't think its possible to teach or learn sexual preference. It either gets your dick hard, or it doesn't.

I meant it. You don't learn attraction from others. You can however, through abuse, learn to offend. In other words, if someone gets raped as a child, it affects the mind and can cause one to develop depraved moral standards. The abuse may, in some cases more than others, lend a hand in developing the attraction, but it is not the sole determining factor. There are in fact many pedophiles whom have never touched a child, nor will they ever. Pedophilia suggests only attraction, not action on this attraction.

 

[Ctrl]

However there are many cases I've heard of whereas a son is a homosexual, yet no pattern of homosexuality exist in the family. Nor was there abuse present in the child's upbringing. So what caused the homosexual attraction? He lives in a society that frowns upon homosexuality and receives no social encouragement to be gay.

So what we have is a homosexual man, with no genetic precursor, no social stimulus to encourage "deviant" behavior.

You aren't providing enough input. Because THOSE things are not the primmers does not mean that there is not a thread that binds them. What about overbearing religious overtones? What about something to rebel AGAINST in authority or society in order to define ones self as different? What about an overbearing set of authoritarian parents? I am not saying you have to get ****ed in the ass by uncle dave to be gay, and I appologize if it came across that way. I am simply pointing to COMMON social and genetic cues. Did the mom smoke when she was pregnant? Was there something that stunted growth during the part of conception that determines sex? I mean... lol... if you are asking me if there is a homo gene... no. I believe it is an issue of abnormal fetal development in those with a hormonal imbalance.


Sorry for triple posting.

 

[Ctrl]

The answer. MANY. Including our esteemed Vortex. If I remember correctly he fielded that question once, and the answer was no. As a matter of fact, I've known or currently know, 8 homosexuals. None of them have ever spoken of sexual abuse. Your assertion that homosexuality is often caused by sexual abuse at the hands of same sex offenders is highly inaccurate.

This was a remarkably stupid line of argument on my part, and for that I appologize. It requires that you accept my anecdotal evidence, and that of some therapists I claim to know, or counter with your own anecdotal evidence, which presumes your friends are close enough to divulge such information out of the blue. It is utterly stupid to argue either and I retract the comment, though it has been MY experience.

Human nature when caught doing such an act of depravity is to find an external source of blame. Now, I'm not saying that sexual abuse isn't a contributing factor in many cases of pedophilia. I'm arguing that your statistics are skewed. Pedophilia is an attraction. Just like I'm attracted to younger petite ladies. I was never abused by young petite ladies as a child (unfortunately).

We arent talking about heterosexuality, we are talking about homosexuality, which I am claiming is "different", so calling on your own heterosexual experience to rationalize it is not acceptable. Pedophilia specifically dealing with children has nothing to do with "sex". It has to do with "sexual objectification"... the difference I will define if necessary. The objectification is the action in question, and it is born of abuse and victimization.

The definition of pedophilia? : sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object Pedophilia is, by definition, a sexual attraction to prepubescent or peripubescant children. However, not all pedophiles act on their compulsion.

Show me one that didn't act on it. It is not good enough to just believe.

I assert that for your outrageous figure of 99% to be anywhere near true, it would only apply to those whom actually offend.

Bully for you. You have asserted something. The onus is now on you to prove that assertion. Good luck.

If you want me to redefine the terms to be "offending pedophiles" I will go ahead and grant it, as I ALSO believe that it is 99.9% of the pedophile population. You are not born with it. It is not a dark spot on a cat scan. It is a sadism born of torture.

 

[Ctrl]

Double post. Mea culpa.

 

[Jhony5]

which presumes your friends are close enough to divulge such information out of the blue.

Granted, none of them are really close enough to discuss molestation with me directly. However 3 of them are relatives of good friends. The rest are non-factors in this case as I doubt people, gay or not, discuss childhood sexual abuse so casually.

Show me one that didn't act on it. It is not good enough to just believe.

Well this is a tricky one. I could cite the law of averages, although I'd rather not due to its flimsy nature. Common sense would seem to dictate that with so many cases of pedophilia being documented, that there must be some that DO NOT act on their compulsion for a myriad of reasons. Morality, religious beliefs, perhaps fear of consequence or reprisal. I've seen teenage girls that are legally underage that I'm not afraid to admit that they are very attractive. Granted they are not prepubescent children thus placing them outside of the scope of pedophilia targets. I would not act on my attraction to them, simply because I find them attractive. Although this is kinda playing semantics and ultimately inconsequential as too our discussion.

We aren't talking about heterosexuality, we are talking about homosexuality, which I am claiming is "different", so calling on your own heterosexual experience to rationalize it is not acceptable

Agreed its different. However sexual attraction is sexual attraction no matter what your quarry. Homosexuality IS different, but it does not require criminal behavior or victimization. Its just an attraction to the same sex. A mental defect? Perhaps.

If you want me to redefine the terms to be "offending pedophiles" I will go ahead and grant it, as I ALSO believe that it is 99.9% of the pedophile population. You are not born with it. It is not a dark spot on a cat scan. It is a sadism born of torture to a mind that cant cope with it.

Ya know, the more I think about it the more I lean towards believing your correct. In respect to emotional damage spawning the urge to abuse. After all we aren't talking about just sexual gratification. I saw a documentary once wherein they were studying offending pedophiles. They connected sensors to various body parts of the offenders and measured their responses to visual stimulus. The images that garnished response were typically infants playing on the floor with their legs spread and other similar imagery. Absolutely deplorable and horrifying to even think of what the **** is wrong with a person for that to happen. One case involved a guy whom had been caught entering stores and cutting pictures of infants off of diaper packages. Only to go home and satisfy his urges with them.

I have to say damage would have to occur for this, I guess you could term it as a phenomenon, to take place. But don't you think its reasonable to assume that some pedophiles are just simply attracted to children without the required past abuse having taken place?

 

[Msixty]

ok, the whole is gay a mental or social thing, argument has (in my opinion) seen many good points on both sides.

but i think that it is a mixture of both .

i'll give you two examples and why i beleave they prove this,

the first, is a boy that is only 12 years old, his father is a good man, he has a loving mother, he goes hunting and fishing with his dad most weekends and helps around the house cleaning and doing chores, his dad is teaching him carpentry and he has a treehouse he made himself, and he is an all around normal (to the point of creepy textbook perfection) kid. But he is also into playing with barbie dolls and he likes rainbows (steriotype i know, but it's for the sake of argument) and he is not looking at girls like some of his friends are starting/continuing to. instaid our subject is attracted to his male friends, he doesn't know why, he just is.

that would be genetic, our subject was born with a slightly different brain function that his friends, this has been documented to happen, and in the extreem the subject actually hase a brain of the other sex. the boy has no social pressure to be gay, he problably doesn't even know what that means, but he still likes other boys. he is natually gay, but it is becouse of a poor genetic construction, so the child actually has a genetic disorder (DAMN STRAIGHT i called him being gay a genetic disorder, i'm not being a 'hater' it's a fact) and society has nothing to do with it.




now, another boy was born and raised in california (lol, gotta stick to steriotypes) and is genetically normal, but he has a gay dad and..uh..dad, and he was raised to accept and respect homosexuality. he never really questioned it and felt that he should like boys, he isn't repulsed to women, but he thinks his dads might be upset if he started being with girls, so he found other boys like himself and 5 years down the like, well, as McD's says, Da-Da-Da-Da-Da, he's loving it.

that would be social, the boy had normal mental function, but was influenced so that he felt it was right, even neccesary, to be attracted to the opposit sex. and so after practicing this phisically for a period of a few years, the boy has made this his personal feelings, not just what he sees. (NOTE: this is not what i think EVERY social pressure situation is like, it's just blatent and non-subliminal to prove my point)



well, that's what i think, they are both big contributers, dissect at will.....

but leave my horrible spelling out of it, i know most of it is wrong, but i never exelled in that regaurd, and i have NO spell check or admin privalages to get one. and no that does not mean i'm stupid.