There Is No Hell

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Ghamph

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There Is No Hell
When we project an appetite for vengeance on God, we pervert the divine
image.
By the Rev. Forrest Church


The difference between Universalists and Unitarians (the old joke has it) is
that Universalists believe that God is too good to damn them, whereas
Unitarians believe that they're too good to be damned. I am a Universalist.

For all my many failings, the day I wake up dead I won't be in a cattle car
on the fast train to Satan's fiery pit. Nor will you. And neither will Old
Scratch himself. If he actually exists, the devil too will be saved. In the
good news of universalism, God is a loving God who will not rest until the
entire creation is redeemed. All creatures will be saved. There is no hell.



It's easy to understand why hell was invented (if quite late in the biblical
record). Eternal damnation solves the sticky part of the problem of evil:
Why do good things happen to bad people? Reserving a corner of hell for all
who escape well-deserved punishment here on earth balances the moral ledger
sheet. Justice is done. Otherwise, not only is life unfair; the afterlife
becomes unfair as well.

The problem is, when we project our retributive logic onto a cosmic screen,
we pervert the divine image. We predicate hell on the irreverent presumption
that God's appetite for vengeance-an all-voracious version of our own
nagging hunger-must be satisfied. "She'll get hers in hell," we say. That
balances our ledger, but it turns God into a jailer.

The idea of purgatory makes perfectly good sense. I can imagine the utility
of corrective punishment. But eternal hellfire demeans everything I believe
about God. More important, it eviscerates the heart of Jesus' gospel.

Jesus was anything but a biblical literalist. He teaches by parable, not by
citing chapter and verse, and gets into holy mischief by repeatedly breaking
the letter of scripture. Love is the sum and substance of all the law and
the prophets, he teaches. He enjoins us to forgive and love our enemies.
"Your enemy be damned," is no part of his gospel.

"Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect," Jesus instructs his
disciples. That perfection can be summed up in three words, each an
expression of divine love: justice, mercy and forgiveness. Standing alone,
justice might allow for the creation of hell, but mercy and forgiveness
render it morally impossible. We can sift a spoonful of evidence for hell
from the scriptures, even as we can ladle out dozens of arguments for
slavery. Neither, however, meets the requirements of the biblical Spirit,
whose imperative is love.

If we, mere humans, can forgive unforgettable damage, can't God?

It's no wonder that hell is the watchword for religious terror. By tempting
the darker angels of our nature, the very idea of it undermines the
principles of mercy and forgiveness. You don't have to be a terrorist to be
crippled by the idea of hell, however. Couple "Not to worry, for God will
punish her eternally" to the sound adage, "Hate the sin and love the
sinner," and it becomes a noxious bromide.



It is impossible to hate a person and pray for him at the same time.
Visualize in your mind someone who causes you profound pain. Remind yourself
that your enemy is a child of God. If that doesn't break the spell, remember
(and not with a smirk on your face) that he too will die one day. Then do
something truly godlike. Pray that before your enemy dies, he will
experience a taste of true peace and happiness.

Loving our enemies demands sacrifice (a word that means, "to make sacred").
We sacrifice self-righteousness, bitterness, and pride, knowing that such an
act will cleanse our souls and make our lives right with all that is holy.
At our most reverent, having resisted the temptation to damn our enemy to
hell, we go one step further and pray for her immortal soul. We try to be
perfect, as God in heaven is perfect.

If, following Jesus' lead, we open ourselves to the workings of grace when
we forgive our enemies, how could God imaginably entertain a plan of
selective redemption based on a retributive justice system with no
possibility for parole? If we, mere humans, can unlock our hearts by praying
for someone who has inflicted unforgettable damage on us, would God damn to
eternal hellfire every creature who has failed life's course?

God may not actually be love-the mystery of creation is too deep for human
equivalents to approximate-but we know from experience and the spirit of the
scriptures that love is divine.

None of us is too good to be damned, but God is too good and too loving to
damn us. There is no hell.
 
<lsenders@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bea001d4-a272-4a7a-9cc2-e7ad5e6fd0f5@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 23, 11:41 am, "Ghamph" <gha...@localnet.com> wrote:
>> There Is No Hell
>> When we project an appetite for vengeance on God, we pervert the divine
>> image.
>> By the Rev. Forrest Church
>>
>> The difference between Universalists and Unitarians (the old joke has it)
>> is
>> that Universalists believe that God is too good to damn them, whereas
>> Unitarians believe that they're too good to be damned. I am a
>> Universalist.
>>
>> For all my many failings, the day I wake up dead I won't be in a cattle
>> car
>> on the fast train to Satan's fiery pit. Nor will you. And neither will
>> Old
>> Scratch himself. If he actually exists, the devil too will be saved. In
>> the
>> good news of universalism, God is a loving God who will not rest until
>> the
>> entire creation is redeemed. All creatures will be saved. There is no
>> hell.
>>

> Really!
>>
>> It's easy to understand why hell was invented (if quite late in the
>> biblical
>> record).

>
> Wrong again!
>
> SNIP
>
>> None of us is too good to be damned, but God is too good and too loving
>> to
>> damn us. There is no hell.

>
> For anyone who wants an informed study on this topic. read "Hell
> Under Fire" with about 12 separate authors looking at the topic and
> its related topics. Best book I've found on the subject though
> Jonathan Edwards wrote a couple of note worthies.
>
> But the jist of this particular post reveals that emotionism, not an
> intelligent survey of what Scripture teaches on the subject, caters to
> the immature and unlearned.


SCRIPTURE IS NOTHING MORE THAN THE OPINIONS OF POORLY
EDUCATED ANCIENT SHEEP HERDERS THAT FELT COMPELLED TO
INVENT ANSWERS TO UNANSWERED QUESTIONS!
 
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:41:20 -0500, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com>
wrote:
 
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:02:13 -0800, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:41:20 -0500, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com>
>wrote:
>
 
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:52:45 -0500, Gabriel
<gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote:
 
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:02:30 -0000, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
 
"john w

> x-no-archive: yes
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:02:30 -0000, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
 
"john w

> x-no-archive: yes
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:52:45 -0500, Gabriel
> <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
 
Ted J L wrote:

> In article <13ke44aivhesmb4@corp.supernews.com>, ghamph@localnet.com says...
> >
> >There Is No Hell

>
> "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof
> are the ways of death."[Pr 16:25]


If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather
go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an
infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It
has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the
hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men.... What
right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to
stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and
fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this
doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment.
Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent,
throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and
does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a
hyena. -- Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Liberty Of All" (1877)


Someone in heaven heard that his best friend down on earth had just passed
away.
 
x-no-archive: yes
On 23 Nov 2007 22:14:02 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
 
"john w

> x-no-archive: yes
> On 23 Nov 2007 22:14:02 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
> wrote:
>
 
x-no-archive: yes
On 23 Nov 2007 22:13:02 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
 
x-no-archive: yes
On 23 Nov 2007 22:13:02 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
 
x-no-archive: yes
On 23 Nov 2007 22:17:01 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
 
"john w

> x-no-archive: yes
> On 23 Nov 2007 22:13:02 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
> wrote:
>
 
x-no-archive: yes
On 23 Nov 2007 23:13:01 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
 
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:02:30 -0000, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>
><lsenders@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:bea001d4-a272-4a7a-9cc2-e7ad5e6fd0f5@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 23, 11:41 am, "Ghamph" <gha...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>> There Is No Hell
>>> When we project an appetite for vengeance on God, we pervert the divine
>>> image.
>>> By the Rev. Forrest Church
>>>
>>> The difference between Universalists and Unitarians (the old joke has it)
>>> is
>>> that Universalists believe that God is too good to damn them, whereas
>>> Unitarians believe that they're too good to be damned. I am a
>>> Universalist.
>>>
>>> For all my many failings, the day I wake up dead I won't be in a cattle
>>> car
>>> on the fast train to Satan's fiery pit. Nor will you. And neither will
>>> Old
>>> Scratch himself. If he actually exists, the devil too will be saved. In
>>> the
>>> good news of universalism, God is a loving God who will not rest until
>>> the
>>> entire creation is redeemed. All creatures will be saved. There is no
>>> hell.
>>>

>> Really!
>>>
>>> It's easy to understand why hell was invented (if quite late in the
>>> biblical
>>> record).

>>
>> Wrong again!
>>
>> SNIP
>>
>>> None of us is too good to be damned, but God is too good and too loving
>>> to
>>> damn us. There is no hell.

>>
>> For anyone who wants an informed study on this topic. read "Hell
>> Under Fire" with about 12 separate authors looking at the topic and
>> its related topics. Best book I've found on the subject though
>> Jonathan Edwards wrote a couple of note worthies.
>>
>> But the jist of this particular post reveals that emotionism, not an
>> intelligent survey of what Scripture teaches on the subject, caters to
>> the immature and unlearned.

>
>SCRIPTURE IS NOTHING MORE THAN THE OPINIONS OF POORLY
>EDUCATED ANCIENT SHEEP HERDERS THAT FELT COMPELLED TO
>INVENT ANSWERS TO UNANSWERED QUESTIONS!
>

I see that you are nothing more than a poorly educated person who has
no idea at all who penned the Bible or why. Even so, you have LOTS of
mindless opinions about the book you have not read through, clearly
know little or nothing about, and are dead set against because of your
own ignorance.

It figures.

Checker
 
On 23 Nov 2007 22:17:01 -0600, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:

>
>
>Ted J L wrote:
>
>> In article <13ke44aivhesmb4@corp.supernews.com>, ghamph@localnet.com says...
>> >
>> >There Is No Hell

>>
>> "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof
>> are the ways of death."[Pr 16:25]

>
>If there is a God who will damn his children forever,


We're not his children until we repent and accept his only
begotton Son Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior.

Galatians 3:26-27 KJVR For ye are all the children of God by
faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been
baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Then we are His children, and you are exactly right: He will not
damn His children.

But, until we do this, we are not His children and are at enmity
with God.

John 3:36 KJVR He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting
life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but
the wrath of God abideth on him.

And those who -choose- not to be His children are damned in hell,
as payment for the wages of their sin.

But God loves everyone, that everyone would -choose- to repent
and be saved.

2 Peter 3:9 KJVR The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not
willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
repentance.


>I would rather
>go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an
>infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It
> has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the
>hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men....


So you despise the doctrine of loving your neighbor as yourself?

Matthew 22:36-39 KJVR Master, which is the great commandment in
the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the
second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Matthew 5:43-45 KJVR Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou
shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say
unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good
to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your
Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the
evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the
unjust.

But you despise such doctrine? To despise such doctrines is to
hold truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 1:18 KJVR For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the
truth in unrighteousness;

>What
>right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to
>stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and
>fill the future with horror and with fear?


We are to go forth into the world and spread the good news of our
savior Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:15-16 KJVR And he said unto them, Go ye into all the
world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that
believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth
not shall be damned.

>I do not believe this
>doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment.


I sleep better now than I ever did before I became a child of
God. If you say you would not be able to sleep, then it's your
wrong interpretation of what you think you know about God and his
saving grace that is the problem.

> Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent,
>throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and
>does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a
> hyena. -- Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Liberty Of All" (1877)
>
>
>Someone in heaven heard that his best friend down on earth had just passed
>away.
>
>?Oh I'm so looking forward to seeing him again? the man said. ?Sorry? said God,
>?But he will not be coming here because he has been a little bit more sinful
>than you, so your friend, will be going to the other place we call Hell?.
>
>So here's this man, sitting for eternity in paradise next to his loving God,
>whilst his friend, who had been just a little more sinful than he, is about to
>roast for eternity on burning coals in a place called Hell.
>
>Is it conceivable that anything could be more banal, juvenile, or crassly
>stupid?


If you remembered these people while in heaven, you would be
correct. Those who end up cast into hell will not be remembered
by those who are in heaven.

Revelation 21:4-5 KJVR And God shall wipe away all tears from
their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor
crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former
things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for
these words are true and faithful.

But those who are in hell will remember quite clearly those who
are in heaven, or still alive.

Luke 16:19-31 KJVR There was a certain rich man, which was
clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every
day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was
laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with
the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the
dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that
the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's
bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell
he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar
off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father
Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the
tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am
tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember
that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and
likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou
art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there
is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence
to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from
thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that
thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five
brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into
this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have
Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said,
Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead,
they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not
Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though
one rose from the dead.

Try praying to God and ask for understanding. Try reading the
Gospel of John in the Bible.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask!

>
>Bob
>Humanist Brit.
>Hong Kong
>
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Scripture references are quoted from The holy Bible, King James version
>> Prepared for the University of Virginia Library Electronic Text Center
>> http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/relig.browse.html
 
Ghamph wrote:
> There Is No Hell
> When we project an appetite for vengeance on God, we pervert the divine
> image.
> By the Rev. Forrest Church
>
>
> The difference between Universalists and Unitarians (the old joke has it) is
> that Universalists believe that God is too good to damn them, whereas
> Unitarians believe that they're too good to be damned. I am a Universalist.
>
> For all my many failings, the day I wake up dead I won't be in a cattle car
> on the fast train to Satan's fiery pit. Nor will you. And neither will Old
> Scratch himself. If he actually exists, the devil too will be saved. In the
> good news of universalism, God is a loving God who will not rest until the
> entire creation is redeemed. All creatures will be saved. There is no hell.


I'll wager that should he marry my ex she will change his mind on that !
 
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