There Is No Hell

In article <LB62j.23811$lD6.18163@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rod_=BF?= <nowdefunctmail@nomailanytime.com> wrote:

> Ghamph wrote:
> > "Rod

 

[walksalone]

john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com> news:0oihk3plc34vddvqtb3emomb4c6gdg278o@
4ax.com desperate for new additions to his fan club did purse his lips and
pursue a new poster across USENET.


From: john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion,alt.bibl
e
Subject: Re: There Is No Hell
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:09:56 -0800
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> x-no-archive: yes
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:24:44 -0800 (PST), "jennilen25@gmail.com"
> <jennilen25@gmail.com> wrote:
>

 

[walksalone]

john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
news:grihk39vjjfc7jehqdrtf0np662qn8gb0u@4ax.com

From: john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion,alt.bi
ble
Subject: Re: There Is No Hell
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:10:48 -0800
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> x-no-archive: yes
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:02:13 -0500, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com>
> wrote:
>

 

[walksalone]

john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
news:tgihk31deh5eejpvg65qdagnso4179gbd7@4ax.com
in an attempt to prove that his inferiority is only in his own mind left
the following grins and giggles behind.

From: john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion,alt.bi
ble
Subject: Re: There Is No Hell
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:07:48 -0800
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9cc2-e7ad5e6fd0f5@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <u_I1j.767$rc2.766
@bignews1.bellsouth.net> <i54fk359pel7h8nsf1mkdifngali44fatd@4ax.com>
<9i12j.1122$Mu4.1032@bignews7.bellsouth.net>
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> x-no-archive: yes
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:08:44 -0000, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>

 

[Rod]

 

[Will]

Ghamph wrote:
> There Is No Hell
> When we project an appetite for vengeance on God, we pervert the divine
> image.
> By the Rev. Forrest Church
>
>
> The difference between Universalists and Unitarians (the old joke has it) is
> that Universalists believe that God is too good to damn them, whereas
> Unitarians believe that they're too good to be damned. I am a Universalist.
>
> For all my many failings, the day I wake up dead I won't be in a cattle car
> on the fast train to Satan's fiery pit. Nor will you. And neither will Old
> Scratch himself. If he actually exists, the devil too will be saved. In the
> good news of universalism, God is a loving God who will not rest until the
> entire creation is redeemed. All creatures will be saved. There is no hell.
>

You're half-right. There is no eternal damnation where one screams in
agony as they burn forever. However, there is a place where bad souls
go to be destroyed, where they are unmade (Gehenna). This is the valley
of the son of Himmon, also referred to as the valley of slaughter.

When the OT spoke of hell, it was translated from the Hebrew word Sheol,
meaning simply the pit, the grave, or death. Basically, it's where
anyone goes when they die, they go to Sheol, and sleep with their
fathers until the resurrection.

In the NT, hell is often translated from Gehenna, which, as indicated
above, does not point to everlasting torment, but yet a second death, a
death on the day of judgment. In the NT, there are a few places where
hell is translated from Hades, being the pagan place of eternal
suffering. But since neither Christ nor his audience were pagans, but
were Jews living in a pagan society, the use of the word hades in His
speech was more of a cultural reference than a confirmation that such a
place exists, for nowhere in the OT did hades, or anything like hades,
exist.

>
>
> It's easy to understand why hell was invented (if quite late in the biblical
> record). Eternal damnation solves the sticky part of the problem of evil:
> Why do good things happen to bad people? Reserving a corner of hell for all
> who escape well-deserved punishment here on earth balances the moral ledger
> sheet. Justice is done. Otherwise, not only is life unfair; the afterlife
> becomes unfair as well.

Of course, some won't have an afterlife, except that, on their day of
judgment, they be on their way to the slaughter, and on that day, their
soul will cease to exist.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt
tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast
into the fire.

--Matthew 7:18-19, KJV

What happens to a tree when it is cast into a fire? It is consumed,
leaving behind nothing but ash, yes? The tree, in its original form and
function, no longer exist, but it has returned to the place from where
it came, and is now dust.

[snip]

> The idea of purgatory makes perfectly good sense. I can imagine the utility

Except that it is unbiblical, ya?

> of corrective punishment. But eternal hellfire demeans everything I believe
> about God. More important, it eviscerates the heart of Jesus' gospel.

If you chose to believe in purgatory, than do you not know that today
you are in it, until the day you enter the kingdom of God, or the day
you enter sheol.

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God
should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not
with observation:

21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the
kingdom of God is within you.
--Luke 17:20-21, KJV

In other words, the kingdom of God is within you if you chose to follow
Christ. For by following Christ Jesus, you would not only love your
neighbor and love your God (the two great commandments that all the law
and prophets hang upon), but would be at an internal peace, knowing the
God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel will provide.

>
> Jesus was anything but a biblical literalist. He teaches by parable, not by
> citing chapter and verse, and gets into holy mischief by repeatedly breaking
> the letter of scripture. Love is the sum and substance of all the law and
> the prophets, he teaches. He enjoins us to forgive and love our enemies.
> "Your enemy be damned," is no part of his gospel.
>
> "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect," Jesus instructs his
> disciples. That perfection can be summed up in three words, each an
> expression of divine love: justice, mercy and forgiveness. Standing alone,
> justice might allow for the creation of hell, but mercy and forgiveness
> render it morally impossible. We can sift a spoonful of evidence for hell
> from the scriptures, even as we can ladle out dozens of arguments for
> slavery. Neither, however, meets the requirements of the biblical Spirit,
> whose imperative is love.
>
> If we, mere humans, can forgive unforgettable damage, can't God?
>
> It's no wonder that hell is the watchword for religious terror. By tempting
> the darker angels of our nature, the very idea of it undermines the
> principles of mercy and forgiveness. You don't have to be a terrorist to be
> crippled by the idea of hell, however. Couple "Not to worry, for God will
> punish her eternally" to the sound adage, "Hate the sin and love the
> sinner," and it becomes a noxious bromide.
>
>
> It is impossible to hate a person and pray for him at the same time.
> Visualize in your mind someone who causes you profound pain. Remind yourself
> that your enemy is a child of God. If that doesn't break the spell, remember
> (and not with a smirk on your face) that he too will die one day. Then do
> something truly godlike. Pray that before your enemy dies, he will
> experience a taste of true peace and happiness.
>
> Loving our enemies demands sacrifice (a word that means, "to make sacred").
> We sacrifice self-righteousness, bitterness, and pride, knowing that such an
> act will cleanse our souls and make our lives right with all that is holy.
> At our most reverent, having resisted the temptation to damn our enemy to
> hell, we go one step further and pray for her immortal soul. We try to be
> perfect, as God in heaven is perfect.
>
> If, following Jesus' lead, we open ourselves to the workings of grace when
> we forgive our enemies, how could God imaginably entertain a plan of
> selective redemption based on a retributive justice system with no
> possibility for parole? If we, mere humans, can unlock our hearts by praying
> for someone who has inflicted unforgettable damage on us, would God damn to
> eternal hellfire every creature who has failed life's course?
>
> God may not actually be love-the mystery of creation is too deep for human
> equivalents to approximate-but we know from experience and the spirit of the
> scriptures that love is divine.
>
> None of us is too good to be damned, but God is too good and too loving to
> damn us. There is no hell.
>
>

 

[Will]

elisabeth1 wrote:
[snip]
>
> Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple
> and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a
> certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at the gate,
> desireing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's
> table. Moreover the dogs came to and licked his sores. So it was the
> beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom (in
> heaven). The rich man also dies and was buried. And being in torments
> in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus
> in his bosom.

This is discussing Hades, a pagan belief. Jesus was speaking in
parables, and this parable made cultural reference to the Graco-Roman
belief concerning Hades. Jesus's intent was not one of confirmation
about Hades, the river of Styx, etc., but was simply a cultural
reference that the Jews, living in a pagan society, all understood.

Do you really think that the Jews, who had no belief in Hades, would
have heard this any differently than as a cultural reference?

[snip]

Regards,

Will

 

In article <GYh2j.77456$Um6.23050@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
=?windows-1252?Q?Rod_=BF?= <nowdefunctmail@nomailanytime.com> wrote:

>

 

[vernono]

"Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:13ke44aivhesmb4@corp.supernews.com...
> There Is No Hell


At minimum, it is here and now on earth.

 

[nick cobb]

Bishop Nikolai Velimirovich
The Prologue from Ohrid


REFLECTION

Many learned pagans entered the Church of Christ and were baptized precisely
because the Church preached immortal life as a proven fact and not as a
speculation of human reason. St. Clement of Rome had studied all of Greek
philosophy, yet his soul remained unsatisfied and empty. As a young man of
twenty-four, he desired to know with all his soul if there were another,
better life than this. Philosophy gave him only the thoughts of various men,
but no real proof. He mourned for his lost parents and brothers and was
tormented constantly by not knowing if he would be able to see them in some
other life. The All-seeing God directed his footsteps and he met a man who
spoke to him of Christians, and of their belief in life beyond the grave.
This so stirred the young Clement that he immediately moved from Rome to
Judea so that there, in the cradle of the Christian Faith itself, he might
come to uncontestable knowledge regarding life beyond the grave. When he
heard the preaching of the Apostle Peter, based entirely on Christ's
Resurrection from the dead, Clement despised the conjectures of philosophy
and sincerely adopted the Christian Faith. He was baptized, and dedicated
himself totally to the service of the Church of God. As it was then, so it
is today-he who has a strong faith in the resurrected Christ, and a clear
knowledge of life beyond death and judgment, easily decides to pay the price
for entry into that life; that is, the fulfilling of all God's commandments.

 

In article <474a19d1$0$27056$7836cce5@newsrazor.net>, "vernono"
<vernono@hereandthere> wrote:

> "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote in message
> news:13ke44aivhesmb4@corp.supernews.com...
> > There Is No Hell
>
>
> At minimum, it is here and now on earth.

 

[nick cobb]

Understand what "Hell" is. It is NOT a physical place. When a person
dies, their spiritual self is separated from their material body. Think
of the spiritual self as pure intellect. I am sure that you have had bad
dreams. This was a pure intellectual experience. Now, think of the most
horrible dreams, very real, experienced all the time. This is what hell
will be like. It will be a "Hellish-Intellectual" experience. This is
why we can experience a sense of Hell in this world - pure, mental anguish.

 

[Robibnikoff]

"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote

snip
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557

 

In article <474AD06A.2080604@cris.com>, nick cobb <nickk@cris.com> wrote:

> Bishop Nikolai Velimirovich
> The Prologue from Ohrid
>
>
> REFLECTION
>
> Many learned pagans entered the Church of Christ and were baptized precisely
> because the Church preached immortal life as a proven fact and not as a
> speculation of human reason. ...

 

[Ghamph]

"Will" <nomail@afraid.org> wrote in message
news:cMj2j.77472$Um6.2907@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
> Ghamph wrote:
> > There Is No Hell
> > When we project an appetite for vengeance on God, we pervert the divine
> > image.
> > By the Rev. Forrest Church
> >
> >
> > The difference between Universalists and Unitarians (the old joke has
it) is
> > that Universalists believe that God is too good to damn them, whereas
> > Unitarians believe that they're too good to be damned. I am a
Universalist.
> >
> > For all my many failings, the day I wake up dead I won't be in a cattle
car
> > on the fast train to Satan's fiery pit. Nor will you. And neither will
Old
> > Scratch himself. If he actually exists, the devil too will be saved. In
the
> > good news of universalism, God is a loving God who will not rest until
the
> > entire creation is redeemed. All creatures will be saved. There is no
hell.
> >
>
> You're half-right. There is no eternal damnation where one screams in
> agony as they burn forever. However, there is a place where bad souls
> go to be destroyed, where they are unmade (Gehenna). This is the valley
> of the son of Himmon, also referred to as the valley of slaughter.

Good luck with that belief.

>
> When the OT spoke of hell, it was translated from the Hebrew word Sheol,
> meaning simply the pit, the grave, or death. Basically, it's where
> anyone goes when they die, they go to Sheol, and sleep with their
> fathers until the resurrection.

The sting of death is a sin. When contemplating our guaranteed demise, if
it is thought of as stinging, then we still need to be born of the spirit.
Christ said "follow me" and that didn't mean "follow me for a short
distance".
Eternal creatures do not have a sting of death. Quote Christ "you have
eternal life" no conditions, only a fact or (Gospel).
Even if one believes in a hell, one needs to live forever, for it to happen.
To die without being born of the spirit means eternal darkness, that's not
good, but not eternal barbeque.
>
> In the NT, hell is often translated from Gehenna, which, as indicated
> above, does not point to everlasting torment, but yet a second death, a
> death on the day of judgment. In the NT, there are a few places where
> hell is translated from Hades, being the pagan place of eternal
> suffering. But since neither Christ nor his audience were pagans, but
> were Jews living in a pagan society, the use of the word hades in His
> speech was more of a cultural reference than a confirmation that such a
> place exists, for nowhere in the OT did hades, or anything like hades,
> exist.
>
> >
> >
> > It's easy to understand why hell was invented (if quite late in the
biblical
> > record). Eternal damnation solves the sticky part of the problem of
evil:
> > Why do good things happen to bad people? Reserving a corner of hell for
all
> > who escape well-deserved punishment here on earth balances the moral
ledger
> > sheet. Justice is done. Otherwise, not only is life unfair; the
afterlife
> > becomes unfair as well.
>
> Of course, some won't have an afterlife, except that, on their day of
> judgment, they be on their way to the slaughter, and on that day, their
> soul will cease to exist.

You are wrong!
>
> 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt
> tree bring forth good fruit.

You are right.
>
> 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast
> into the fire.

Not very forgiving, from a Christian.
>
> --Matthew 7:18-19, KJV
>
> What happens to a tree when it is cast into a fire? It is consumed,
> leaving behind nothing but ash, yes? The tree, in its original form and
> function, no longer exist, but it has returned to the place from where
> it came, and is now dust.

We are all (walking, and living dust).
>
> [snip]
>
> > The idea of purgatory makes perfectly good sense. I can imagine the
utility
>
> Except that it is unbiblical, ya?

Elementary school seemed like purgatory to me.
>
> > of corrective punishment. But eternal hellfire demeans everything I
believe
> > about God. More important, it eviscerates the heart of Jesus' gospel.
>
> If you chose to believe in purgatory, than do you not know that today
> you are in it, until the day you enter the kingdom of God, or the day
> you enter sheol.

Until you are born of the spirit.
>
> 20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God
> should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not
> with observation:
>
> 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the
> kingdom of God is within you.
> --Luke 17:20-21, KJV

The kingdom of heaven is within us. That is a fact and there are no
conditions, rules, time payments, or signatures required.
One only needs to hear it and completely (know) that it is true. Eternal
life is a free gift, because it is not a gift, it is a fact and the good
news, is the real gift!
The only hell is eternal darkness and what that brings to us.
>
> In other words, the kingdom of God is within you if you chose to follow
> Christ. For by following Christ Jesus, you would not only love your
> neighbor and love your God (the two great commandments that all the law
> and prophets hang upon), but would be at an internal peace, knowing the
> God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel will provide.
>
> >
> > Jesus was anything but a biblical literalist. He teaches by parable, not
by
> > citing chapter and verse, and gets into holy mischief by repeatedly
breaking
> > the letter of scripture. Love is the sum and substance of all the law
and
> > the prophets, he teaches. He enjoins us to forgive and love our enemies.
> > "Your enemy be damned," is no part of his gospel.
> >
> > "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect," Jesus instructs his
> > disciples. That perfection can be summed up in three words, each an
> > expression of divine love: justice, mercy and forgiveness. Standing
alone,
> > justice might allow for the creation of hell, but mercy and forgiveness
> > render it morally impossible. We can sift a spoonful of evidence for
hell
> > from the scriptures, even as we can ladle out dozens of arguments for
> > slavery. Neither, however, meets the requirements of the biblical
Spirit,
> > whose imperative is love.
> >
> > If we, mere humans, can forgive unforgettable damage, can't God?
> >
> > It's no wonder that hell is the watchword for religious terror. By
tempting
> > the darker angels of our nature, the very idea of it undermines the
> > principles of mercy and forgiveness. You don't have to be a terrorist to
be
> > crippled by the idea of hell, however. Couple "Not to worry, for God
will
> > punish her eternally" to the sound adage, "Hate the sin and love the
> > sinner," and it becomes a noxious bromide.
> >
> >
> > It is impossible to hate a person and pray for him at the same time.
> > Visualize in your mind someone who causes you profound pain. Remind
yourself
> > that your enemy is a child of God. If that doesn't break the spell,
remember
> > (and not with a smirk on your face) that he too will die one day. Then
do
> > something truly godlike. Pray that before your enemy dies, he will
> > experience a taste of true peace and happiness.
> >
> > Loving our enemies demands sacrifice (a word that means, "to make
sacred").
> > We sacrifice self-righteousness, bitterness, and pride, knowing that
such an
> > act will cleanse our souls and make our lives right with all that is
holy.
> > At our most reverent, having resisted the temptation to damn our enemy
to
> > hell, we go one step further and pray for her immortal soul. We try to
be
> > perfect, as God in heaven is perfect.
> >
> > If, following Jesus' lead, we open ourselves to the workings of grace
when
> > we forgive our enemies, how could God imaginably entertain a plan of
> > selective redemption based on a retributive justice system with no
> > possibility for parole? If we, mere humans, can unlock our hearts by
praying
> > for someone who has inflicted unforgettable damage on us, would God damn
to
> > eternal hellfire every creature who has failed life's course?
> >
> > God may not actually be love-the mystery of creation is too deep for
human
> > equivalents to approximate-but we know from experience and the spirit of
the
> > scriptures that love is divine.
> >
> > None of us is too good to be damned, but God is too good and too loving
to
> > damn us. There is no hell.
> >
> >

 

[Ghamph]

"nick cobb" <nickk@cris.com> wrote in message
news:474AD06A.2080604@cris.com...
> Bishop Nikolai Velimirovich
> The Prologue from Ohrid
>
>
> REFLECTION
>
> Many learned pagans entered the Church of Christ and were baptized
precisely
> because the Church preached immortal life as a proven fact and not as a
> speculation of human reason. St. Clement of Rome had studied all of Greek
> philosophy, yet his soul remained unsatisfied and empty. As a young man of
> twenty-four, he desired to know with all his soul if there were another,
> better life than this. Philosophy gave him only the thoughts of various
men,
> but no real proof. He mourned for his lost parents and brothers and was
> tormented constantly by not knowing if he would be able to see them in
some
> other life. The All-seeing God directed his footsteps and he met a man who
> spoke to him of Christians, and of their belief in life beyond the grave.
> This so stirred the young Clement that he immediately moved from Rome to
> Judea so that there, in the cradle of the Christian Faith itself, he might
> come to uncontestable knowledge regarding life beyond the grave. When he
> heard the preaching of the Apostle Peter, based entirely on Christ's
> Resurrection from the dead, Clement despised the conjectures of philosophy
> and sincerely adopted the Christian Faith. He was baptized, and dedicated
> himself totally to the service of the Church of God. As it was then, so it
> is today-he who has a strong faith in the resurrected Christ, and a clear
> knowledge of life beyond death and judgment, easily decides to pay the
price
> for entry into that life; that is, the fulfilling of all God's
commandments.


Humans can sense eternity.
This fact is true.
Jamffer

 

[Ghamph]

"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:474a19d1$0$27056$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
>
> "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote in message
> news:13ke44aivhesmb4@corp.supernews.com...
> > There Is No Hell
>
>
> At minimum, it is here and now on earth.
>
>

True.

 

[Ghamph]

".R. L. MEASURES" <2@vc.net> wrote in message
news:2-2611070622190001@66-53-216-171.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com...
> In article <474a19d1$0$27056$7836cce5@newsrazor.net>, "vernono"
> <vernono@hereandthere> wrote:
>
> > "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote in message
> > news:13ke44aivhesmb4@corp.supernews.com...
> > > There Is No Hell
> >
> >
> > At minimum, it is here and now on earth.
>
> ?? I know a guy who had two, unwed, twice-pregnant daughters living at
home.
>
> --
> Rich Measures, 386-3734, www.somis.org

I plead innocent.
Jamffer

 

[Libertarius]

Because it was also a PAGAN religion, but had some
Jewish flavors added. But
ultimately it was the Roman Emperor who MADE THEM
into Christians by imperial decree. -- L.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Libertarius]