Thou shalt kill or thou shalt not?

[josh]

One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',
and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why
have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years
killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they
disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?

Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.

Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a
situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a
Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.

Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to
beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full
of former murderers!

That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

 

[Bill M]

"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
kill',
> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>
> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why
> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years
> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they
> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?
>
> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a
> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a
> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.
>
> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to
> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full
> of former murderers!
>
> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

Christians totally base their faith on the Bibles.

Without the Bible stories the Christian religion would not exist. The Bibles
are nothing more than books of myths, fables, contradictions, human and
animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny, destruction,
barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and totally
untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.

The average person today does not appreciate the difficulty and unlikelihood
of producing accurate transmissions of the original Bibles. Firstly there
are no originals in existence. They are all copies of copies of unknown
accuracy.

One of the problems with the accuracy of the Bibles is that when they were
copied, no marks of punctuation were used, no distinction was made between
lower case and upper case letters and more bizarre to modern script, no
spaces were used to separate words.

This kind of continuous writing was called "scriptuo continua"
'godisnowhere' could mean 'god is now here' or quit the opposite, 'god is no
where' depending on the spacing which was not used at the time. This left
accurate interpretation very unlikely.

Add to this the normal occurrence of errors of transmission and the
intentional modification to suite the transcribers wishes and beliefs and
you have documents of highly questionable meaning and unlikely accuracy.

Further compounding the problem was the size and accuracy of the
vocabularies were much more limited than today.

The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand. There are NO ORIGINALS in
existence. Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals??? What are
available are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable
veracity. The books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the
invention of the printing press. Even the so called originals were
supposedly written by 50 or more different authors of unknown veracity. They
are biased by, and dependent on the writings and opinions of the clergy. And
the status and survival of the clergy is totally dependent on their follower
's belief in their Bible stories. There are 18 different English versions
alone and there is no way of knowing how far they have wondered from the
originals.

And there is no evidence that even the originals are anything more than
inaccurate fiction. Do you believe in a book that has talking animals,
wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food falling
from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical,
absurd and primitive stories,

Basing ones life and faith on these documents is not very sound reasoning.

 

[kingdoodlesquat]

"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
kill',
> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>
> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why
> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years
> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they
> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?
>
> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a
> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a
> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.
>
> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to
> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full
> of former murderers!
>
> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.
>
>

Laughingly, ultra theist duke was involved in the manufacture of weapons -
but he gets around this little inconvenience by suggesting that he did
exactly what his country told him to do. But this also has a caveat because
he thinks that his god talks the US president regarding war. I like the idea
the we have to live our lives in complete slavery & obedience to this god
who lays down the commandments & as soon as he loses his temper, its all
fire & brimstone & hell for eternity. How more theists don't end up in the
loony bin trying to resolve these contradictions they so firmly believe in
is beyond me.

 

[Medusa]

On Oct 3, 6:42 pm, "josh" <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',
> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>
> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why
> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years
> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they
> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?
>
> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a
> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a
> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.
>
> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to
> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full
> of former murderers!
>
> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

One of the reasons I lost my religion; the church I attended supported
the war in Vietnam. When I asked the pastor how the church could
support killing people when God said so clearly that doing so was
wrong, I got a bunch of crap for an answer. Then I was told I just
didn't understand. Yeah, I didn't; just one of the contradictions
that made me question the whole Christian faith.

Medusa

AA #2281

 

[Denis Loubet]

"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
> kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>
> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why
> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years
> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they
> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?
>
> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a
> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a
> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.
>
> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to
> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full
> of former murderers!
>
> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not
MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.

Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.


--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http//www.io.com/~dloubet

 

[Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian]

josh:

> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

Well, the _real_ ten commandments say _no_ such thing as "thou shalt not
kill", so...

--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...

My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus

 

[MarkA]

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 00:42:42 +0100, josh wrote:

> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',
> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>
> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why
> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years
> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they
> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?
>
> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a
> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a
> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.
>
> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to
> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full
> of former murderers!
>
> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder." Much of
the Old Testament is a cookbook for maintaining the group identity and
solidarity of the Jews in a hostile world. Killing people outside your
clan is OK, even encouraged. But don't kill one of your own, unless he
picks up a stick on the Sabbath.

--
MarkA
(This space accidentally filled in)

 

[Meteorite Debris]

Last time that great scribe josh <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk>
chipped away at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',
> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>
> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why
> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years
> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they
> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?
>
> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a
> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a
> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.
>
> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to
> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full
> of former murderers!
>
> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.

That's because elsewhere in the buybull God does an enormous amount of
killing, of ethnic cleansing, of raping, burning and pillaging, or has
ordered his sycophants do do the same. Cromwell was directly inspired by
the book of Joshua when he did his war crimes in Dregheda and Wexford.

--

Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009

Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

 

[Meteorite Debris]

Last time that great scribe Denis Loubet <dloubet@io.com> chipped away
at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>
> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
> >
> > So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why
> > have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years
> > killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they
> > disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?
> >
> > Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.
> >
> > Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a
> > situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a
> > Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.
> >
> > Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to
> > beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full
> > of former murderers!
> >
> > That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.
>
> All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not
> MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.
>
> Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.

I've heard that line even though the Hebrew word is not the one for
"murder" but a more general word for "kill" and the same word is used in
the OT to describe animals sacrificed.

--

Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009

Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

 

[Carl]

"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
> kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.

Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder." So
before you go on your diatribe, get the proper, most accurate translation of
the Hebrew. It will save you from the embarassment due to ignorance.

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

 

[Meteorite Debris]

Last time that great scribe MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> chipped away at
his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>
> A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."

I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that
"kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.

--

Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009

Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

 

[Meteorite Debris]

Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at
his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

>
> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>
> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."

Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word
for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a
murder situation.

The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.

--

Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009

Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

 

[Michael Gray]

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:42:42 +0100, "josh"
<jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:

>One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',

:

Only in the appalling English translations.
The Hebrew says something quite different.

 

[Michael Gray]

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:13:45 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:

>
>"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
>> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
>> kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>
>Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder." So
>before you go on your diatribe, get the proper, most accurate translation of
>the Hebrew. It will save you from the embarassment due to ignorance.

Whilst I am in broad agreement, it is even more subtle than this,
though.
If sufficient academic interest is expressed, I shall explain more
fully.

 

[Michael Gray]

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris
<epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:

>Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at
>his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>
>>
>> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
>> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
>> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>>
>> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."
>
>Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word
>for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a
>murder situation.
>
>The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.

Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?
I happen to think otherwise.
I take it that you can read Hebrew?

 

[Sara Brum]

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:2789g35giq28odoif451d8i5shcn16fkr0@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris
> <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
>
>>Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at
>>his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>>
>>>
>>> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
>>> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
>>> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>>>
>>> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."
>>
>>Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word
>>for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a
>>murder situation.
>>
>>The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.
>
> Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?
> I happen to think otherwise.
> I take it that you can read Hebrew?

I can't, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

 

[Meteorite Debris]

Last time that great scribe Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> chipped
away at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...

> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris
> <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
>
> >Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at
> >his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
> >
> >>
> >> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
> >> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
> >> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
> >>
> >> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."
> >
> >Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word
> >for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a
> >murder situation.
> >
> >The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.
>
> Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?
> I happen to think otherwise.
> I take it that you can read Hebrew?

My source is Dan Barker's book "Losing Faith in Faith" in the chapter
"Murder He Wrote".

--

Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009

Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

 

[Geoff]

"Meteorite Debris" <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.216f0cd965008be8989880@news.ade.connect.com.au...

>> A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."
>
> I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that
> "kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.

Can someone get God on the phone and clear this up.

Jesus titty ****ing christ, if you're going to write a manual, don't employ
the technical writing staff at Lucky Goldstar!

 

[Geoff]

"Meteorite Debris" <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.216f6cf9d7ff26a1989886@news.ade.connect.com.au...
> Last time that great scribe Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> chipped
> away at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>
>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris
>> <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> >Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at
>> >his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
>> >> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
>> >> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>> >>
>> >> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."
>> >
>> >Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word
>> >for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a
>> >murder situation.
>> >
>> >The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.
>>
>> Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?
>> I happen to think otherwise.
>> I take it that you can read Hebrew?
>
> My source is Dan Barker's book "Losing Faith in Faith" in the chapter
> "Murder He Wrote".

I think it's probably safe to say that all killing is not forbidden with the
term "ratsach". Certainly self-defense is not "ratsach" and the OT god seems
to relish war to the point of scary freakishness.

I guess it all just shows to go ya that one shouldn't rely on the mythology
of Bronze Age sandeaters as a basis for a social compact. This is especially
true for a democracy. We are a nation of laws, not men, and certainly not of
clay tablets. Laws are meant to be evolutionary (even revolutionary if you
ask Jefferson).

Splitting hairs over the meaning of "ratsach" is only an amusing exercise
from an anthropological/linguistic standpoint.

 

[Carl]

"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:4MqdnUEZltfqqJnanZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@io.com...
>
>
> All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not
> MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.
>
> Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.
>

Actually the proper and most accurate translation of the Hebrew is "Thou
shalt not murder." You could at least be intellectually honest about this.
However if this is beyond your capabilities...

The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"
according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew
Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded
Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/