Thou shalt kill or thou shalt not?

"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:nt79g3dgc9m7astonae53f4ku456ui2mm1@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:42:42 +0100, "josh"
> <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
>>kill',
>
> Only in the appalling English translations.
> The Hebrew says something quite different.

That's fine, but is it really relevant to modern society? I sure hope not.

IMHO, I don't care if it means "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not
murder" or "Thou shalt not eat beets".

And why the heck can't Christians understand that "God" didn't really speak
in Renaissance English?
 
On Oct 4, 12:56 am, Meteorite Debris
<epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
> Last time that great scribe Carl <sai...@nettally.com> chipped away at
> his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>
>
>
> > "josh" <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
> > > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
> > > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>
> > Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."
>
> Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word
> for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a
> murder situation.
>
> The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.
>

Nope. Biblical language scholars have shown time and time again that
the word "ratsach" is properly and most accurately translated as
"murder" in regards to the passages referred (Ex. 20:13; Dt. 5:17).
The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"
according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew
Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with
Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.

Even when referenced in the New Testament (Matt. 5:21; Rom. 13:9) the
Koine Greek word "phoneuo" also translates into English as "to
murder" (New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded
Greek-Hebrew Dictionary).

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
 
On Oct 4, 12:15 am, Meteorite Debris
<epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
> Last time that great scribe MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> chipped away at
> his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>
>
>
> > A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."
>
> I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that
> "kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.
>

Barker isn't qualified as an expert in Biblical languages. His degree
in Religion from Azusa Pacific University did not give him expert
qualifications in Biblical languages, specifically in this case,
Hebrew and Koine Greek. So your source is flawed. Actual Biblical
language experts teach that both the Hebrew and Koine Greek that
reference this commandment are most accurately translated as "to
murder." The recognized scholarly sources such as Thayer's and
Strong's support this as well. As do numerous other scholarly sources.

It is becoming apparent that you are unable and/or unwilling to be
intellectually honest on this point and would rather rely on
unqualified sources (such as Dan Barker) rather than researching this
correctly. As such your claims become moot.

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
 
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:15:36 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:

>
>"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
>news:4MqdnUEZltfqqJnanZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@io.com...
>>
>>
>> All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not
>> MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.
>>
>> Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.
>>
>
>Actually the proper and most accurate translation of the Hebrew is "Thou
>shalt not murder." You could at least be intellectually honest about this.
>However if this is beyond your capabilities...

Actually it's not. This is a rationalisation by in-denial believers.

>The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"
>according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew
>Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded
>Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.

Dan Barker checked all the words used for kill/slay/etc. From his
essay "Murder, she Wrote" in Losing Faith in Faith, copied without
permission, any typos are my own:

[begin insert]

Do the Ten Commandments really say "Thou shalt not murder"? The Hebrew
word for "kill" in Exodus 20:13 is ratsach. (The word for "slay" in
the contradictory command in Exodus 32:27 is haraq). Depending on
which version you use there are about ten Hebrew words which are
translated "kill". The five most common, in Hebrew order (with
translation in order of King James frequency) are:

muth: (825) die, slay, put to death, kill
nakah: (502) smite, kill, slay, beat, wound, murder
haraq: (172) slay, kill, murder, destroy
zabach: (140) sacrifice, kill
ratsach: (47) slay[23], murder[17], kill[6], be put to death[1]

Modern preachers must be smarter than the Hebrew translators if they
claim that ratsach means "murder" exclusively. Muth, nakah, haraq,
zabach and ratsach appear to be spilled all over the bible in an
imprecise and overlapping jumble of contexts, in much the same way
modern writers will swap synonyms.

[end insert]

He then gives several examples, quoting chapter and verse, showing
both the modern translation and the original word used. It is clear
that if "ratsach" always means murder then the meanings of these
verses become completely different.

>May God bless,

May you get a brain and stop being so in-your-face rude.

>Carl
 
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:30:59 -0700, saints@nettally.com wrote:

>On Oct 4, 12:15 am, Meteorite Debris
><epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
>> Last time that great scribe MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> chipped away at
>> his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."
>>
>> I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that
>> "kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.
>>
>
>Barker isn't qualified as an expert in Biblical languages. His degree
>in Religion from Azusa Pacific University did not give him expert
>qualifications in Biblical languages, specifically in this case,
>Hebrew and Koine Greek. So your source is flawed. Actual Biblical
>language experts teach that both the Hebrew and Koine Greek that
>reference this commandment are most accurately translated as "to
>murder." The recognized scholarly sources such as Thayer's and
>Strong's support this as well. As do numerous other scholarly sources.

Only among those who want it to mean that becvause they're in denial.

Barker simply did hard work t hat anybody could have done, without an
axe to grind.

Why can't you assholes show a shred of honesty?

>It is becoming apparent that you are unable and/or unwilling to be
>intellectually honest on this point and would rather rely on
>unqualified sources (such as Dan Barker) rather than researching this
>correctly. As such your claims become moot.

Why are so many Christians such personal liars?

>May God bless,

Did you fart, in-yur-face moron?

>Carl
>my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
>my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
 
On Oct 4, 6:17 pm, "Geoff" <geb...@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote:
> "Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>
> news:nt79g3dgc9m7astonae53f4ku456ui2mm1@4ax.com...
>
> > On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:42:42 +0100, "josh"
> > <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
> >>kill',
>
> > Only in the appalling English translations.
> > The Hebrew says something quite different.
>
> That's fine, but is it really relevant to modern society? I sure hope not.
>
> IMHO, I don't care if it means "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not
> murder" or "Thou shalt not eat beets".
>
> And why the heck can't Christians understand that "God" didn't really speak
> in Renaissance English?

pfft... Why the heck can't Christians understand that they are
pathetic, is a more accurate question..

//Empty
 
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:17:36 GMT, "Sara Brum" <sarabrum@medulla.cöm>
wrote:

>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:2789g35giq28odoif451d8i5shcn16fkr0@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris
>> <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>>Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at
>>>his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
>>>> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
>>>> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>>>>
>>>> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."
>>>
>>>Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word
>>>for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a
>>>murder situation.

This is utterly false.
'ratsach' is NOT a general word for kill.
Whoever stated this should study their Hebrew day and night as they
are plainly lacking.

>>>The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.
>>
>> Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?
>> I happen to think otherwise.
>> I take it that you can read Hebrew?
>
>I can't, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

The subtlety comes in the Hebrew word 'ratsach', which in this case
etymologically and philologically clearly means "manslaughter
motivated by blood vengeance", with emphasis on the 'vengeance' bit.
(If it were supposed to be simply 'kill', it would have been rendered
as 'katal' or 'harag'.)

So, a far better translation into English of this apodictic
commandment would be:

"Thou shalt not take murderous vengeance into your own hands."

Which is a bit different from 'manslaughter', as that terms covers
death caused by wilful neglect, amongst others, that are not in the
intent of the commandment.
 
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:15:36 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:

>
>"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
>news:4MqdnUEZltfqqJnanZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@io.com...
>>
>>
>> All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not
>> MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.
>>
>> Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.
>>
>
>Actually the proper and most accurate translation of the Hebrew is "Thou
>shalt not murder." You could at least be intellectually honest about this.
>However if this is beyond your capabilities...
>
>The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"
>according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew
>Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded
>Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.
>

Even these don't take the nuance that ratsach has in this case.
Some get closer to the mark with "Thou shalt not commit manslaughter",
but even this is not close enough to the indended meaning.
Properly translated, it is "Thou shalt not take blood veneange into
your own hands"

The problem with taking your transaltations from lexicons, without
actually reading Hebrew, is that lexicons are by their very nature,
too generalized to cover the indivdual subtleties of the context in
the sentence, and the situation, as well as the age in which it was
written, the origin of the phrase, etc.
It takes etymology, philology, history, and archeology for each and
every sentence to "get" the nuances.

I hope that you have learned something of use here.
 
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:30:59 -0700, saints@nettally.com wrote:

>On Oct 4, 12:15 am, Meteorite Debris
><epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
>> Last time that great scribe MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> chipped away at
>> his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."
>>
>> I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that
>> "kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.
>>
>
>Barker isn't qualified as an expert in Biblical languages. His degree
>in Religion from Azusa Pacific University did not give him expert
>qualifications in Biblical languages, specifically in this case,
>Hebrew and Koine Greek. So your source is flawed. Actual Biblical
>language experts teach that both the Hebrew and Koine Greek that
>reference this commandment are most accurately translated as "to
>murder." The recognized scholarly sources such as Thayer's and
>Strong's support this as well. As do numerous other scholarly sources.
>
>It is becoming apparent that you are unable and/or unwilling to be
>intellectually honest on this point and would rather rely on
>unqualified sources (such as Dan Barker) rather than researching this
>correctly. As such your claims become moot.

See my previous correction to this nonsense.
 
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 20:35:24 +0930, Meteorite Debris
<epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:

>Last time that great scribe Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> chipped
>away at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>
>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris
>> <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> >Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at
>> >his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
>> >> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
>> >> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>> >>
>> >> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."
>> >
>> >Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word
>> >for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a
>> >murder situation.
>> >
>> >The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.
>>
>> Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?
>> I happen to think otherwise.
>> I take it that you can read Hebrew?
>
>My source is Dan Barker's book "Losing Faith in Faith" in the chapter
>"Murder He Wrote".

Ah, I thought it was not an authorative source.
See my prior corrections to this issue.
The term clearly means "manslaughter by blood vengeance".
 
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:23:58 -0700, saints@nettally.com wrote:

>On Oct 4, 12:56 am, Meteorite Debris
><epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
>> Last time that great scribe Carl <sai...@nettally.com> chipped away at
>> his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > "josh" <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
>> > > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
>> > > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>>
>> > Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."
>>
>> Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word
>> for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT a
>> murder situation.
>>
>> The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.
>>
>
>Nope. Biblical language scholars have shown time and time again that
>the word "ratsach" is properly and most accurately translated as
>"murder" in regards to the passages referred (Ex. 20:13; Dt. 5:17).

Where?
Who?
When?
You just made that bullshit up.

>The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"
>according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew
>Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with
>Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.
>
>Even when referenced in the New Testament (Matt. 5:21; Rom. 13:9) the
>Koine Greek word "phoneuo" also translates into English as "to
>murder" (New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded
>Greek-Hebrew Dictionary).

See my previous corrections to this egregious error.

>May God bless,

May Harry Potter Bless.
 
On Oct 3, 7:42?pm, "josh" <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not kill',
> and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>
> So I ask a simple question that strikes to the heart of Christianity: why
> have Christians defied their god and spent the last two thousand years
> killing people either in wars or during exploration or simply because they
> disagreed with each other over the way to worship their god?
>
> Surely it is quite simple for all Christians: Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Any person who has killed another human being or has deliberately set up a
> situation where a human being is likely to be killed cannot claim to be a
> Christian - George Bush and Tony Blair are prime examples.
>
> Please don't tell me that when their time comes killers are just going to
> beg forgiveness and then be dispatched to heaven. The place would be full
> of former murderers!
>
> That would make a mockery of the Bible statement.





Because they are not perfect and sin.


V
 
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:17:09 -0400, "Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com>
wrote:

>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:nt79g3dgc9m7astonae53f4ku456ui2mm1@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:42:42 +0100, "josh"
>> <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
>>>kill',
>>
>> Only in the appalling English translations.
>> The Hebrew says something quite different.
>
>That's fine, but is it really relevant to modern society? I sure hope not.
>
>IMHO, I don't care if it means "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not
>murder" or "Thou shalt not eat beets".
>
>And why the heck can't Christians understand that "God" didn't really speak
>in Renaissance English?

But the goat-herders who did write down these apodictic laws DID speak
ancient Hebrew, and thus it reverts to an historical philological
question.
That a large number of loonies actually claim to respect(!) these
laws, makes it mildy important that they are translated from the
original language into English correctly, of at least some import,
surely?
Despite their God being a bollocks fiction, their behaviour is all too
real.
 
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 20:29:41 -0000, Empty <perfect.empty@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Oct 4, 6:17 pm, "Geoff" <geb...@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote:
>> "Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:nt79g3dgc9m7astonae53f4ku456ui2mm1@4ax.com...
>>
>> > On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:42:42 +0100, "josh"
>> > <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >>One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt not
>> >>kill',
>>
>> > Only in the appalling English translations.
>> > The Hebrew says something quite different.
>>
>> That's fine, but is it really relevant to modern society? I sure hope not.
>>
>> IMHO, I don't care if it means "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not
>> murder" or "Thou shalt not eat beets".
>>
>> And why the heck can't Christians understand that "God" didn't really speak
>> in Renaissance English?
>
>pfft... Why the heck can't Christians understand that they are
>pathetic, is a more accurate question..

Their parasitic mind infection (meme) actively shuts off that bit of
their brain.
 
Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in
news:66oag39ks9f6lqun72bo1cdjvjus0ofaa3@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:17:36 GMT, "Sara Brum" <sarabrum@medulla.cöm>
> wrote:
>
>>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>>news:2789g35giq28odoif451d8i5shcn16fkr0@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:55 +0930, Meteorite Debris
>>> <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Last time that great scribe Carl <saints@nettally.com> chipped away at
>>>>his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> news:t4adneLrgJ9iupnaRVnyuwA@eclipse.net.uk...
>>>>> > One of the ten Bible commandments says quite clearly 'Thou shalt
not
>>>>> > kill', and I believe Jesus continued in the same theme.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually the most accurate translations is "thou shalt not murder."
>>>>
>>>>Actually it isn't. The word used is "ratsach" which is a general word
>>>>for kill. For example in Deuteronomy 4:42 which is most definitely NOT
a
>>>>murder situation.
>
> This is utterly false.
> 'ratsach' is NOT a general word for kill.
> Whoever stated this should study their Hebrew day and night as they
> are plainly lacking.
>
>>>>The "murder" interpretation is xian deceit. A lie in fact.
>>>
>>> Are you sure that you can support such a bold assertion?
>>> I happen to think otherwise.
>>> I take it that you can read Hebrew?
>>
>>I can't, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.
>
> The subtlety comes in the Hebrew word 'ratsach', which in this case
> etymologically and philologically clearly means "manslaughter
> motivated by blood vengeance", with emphasis on the 'vengeance' bit.
> (If it were supposed to be simply 'kill', it would have been rendered
> as 'katal' or 'harag'.)
>
> So, a far better translation into English of this apodictic
> commandment would be:
>
> "Thou shalt not take murderous vengeance into your own hands."
>
> Which is a bit different from 'manslaughter', as that terms covers
> death caused by wilful neglect, amongst others, that are not in the
> intent of the commandment.
>

How do you actually know that the originals were even written in the Hebrew
language. IIRC the oldest existing OT text was written in koine greek
around 300BC. I presume that was translared from hebrew but the documents
it was translated from no longer exist. The oldest existing hebrew texts
are from the first century BC. It is quite possible that these were
translated from the greek version.
 
On Oct 4, 2:49 pm, Christopher A.Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:15:36 -0400, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:
>
> >"Denis Loubet" <dlou...@io.com> wrote in message
> >news:4MqdnUEZltfqqJnanZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@io.com...
>
> >> All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not
> >> MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.
>
> >> Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.
>
> >Actually the proper and most accurate translation of the Hebrew is "Thou
> >shalt not murder." You could at least be intellectually honest about this.
> >However if this is beyond your capabilities...
>
> Actually it's not. This is a rationalisation by in-denial believers.
>
> >The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"
> >according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew
> >Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded
> >Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.
>
> Dan Barker checked all the words used for kill/slay/etc. From his
> essay "Murder, she Wrote" in Losing Faith in Faith, copied without
> permission, any typos are my own:
>
> [begin insert]
>
> Do the Ten Commandments really say "Thou shalt not murder"? The Hebrew
> word for "kill" in Exodus 20:13 is ratsach. (The word for "slay" in
> the contradictory command in Exodus 32:27 is haraq). Depending on
> which version you use there are about ten Hebrew words which are
> translated "kill". The five most common, in Hebrew order (with
> translation in order of King James frequency) are:
>
> muth: (825) die, slay, put to death, kill
> nakah: (502) smite, kill, slay, beat, wound, murder
> haraq: (172) slay, kill, murder, destroy
> zabach: (140) sacrifice, kill
> ratsach: (47) slay[23], murder[17], kill[6], be put to death[1]
>
> Modern preachers must be smarter than the Hebrew translators if they
> claim that ratsach means "murder" exclusively. Muth, nakah, haraq,
> zabach and ratsach appear to be spilled all over the bible in an
> imprecise and overlapping jumble of contexts, in much the same way
> modern writers will swap synonyms.
>
> [end insert]
>
> He then gives several examples, quoting chapter and verse, showing
> both the modern translation and the original word used. It is clear
> that if "ratsach" always means murder then the meanings of these
> verses become completely different.
>
> >May God bless,
>
> May you get a brain and stop being so in-your-face rude.

Actually, Barker failed to compared the Koine Greek references that
support the contention that the proper and most accurate translation
of the Hebrew word "ratsach" in the passages in question in Exodus and
Deuteronomy is indeed "to murder." Secondly Barker intentionally
ignored the numerous established and recognized Hebrew and Greek
dictionaries and ecyclopedias that also show this. Furthermore, his
contention has been refuted by Biblical language scholars many times
much to Barker's consternation.

Again, Dan Barker is unqualified to be a recognized Biblical language
scholar and his poor exegesis shows this. If Barker is your best
source, then you are quite lacking in solid ground in regards to your
position.

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
 
On Oct 4, 2:52 pm, Christopher A.Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:30:59 -0700, sai...@nettally.com wrote:
> >On Oct 4, 12:15 am, Meteorite Debris
> ><epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
> >> Last time that great scribe MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> chipped away at
> >> his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>
> >> > A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."
>
> >> I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that
> >> "kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.
>
> >Barker isn't qualified as an expert in Biblical languages. His degree
> >in Religion from Azusa Pacific University did not give him expert
> >qualifications in Biblical languages, specifically in this case,
> >Hebrew and Koine Greek. So your source is flawed. Actual Biblical
> >language experts teach that both the Hebrew and Koine Greek that
> >reference this commandment are most accurately translated as "to
> >murder." The recognized scholarly sources such as Thayer's and
> >Strong's support this as well. As do numerous other scholarly sources.
>
> Only among those who want it to mean that becvause they're in denial.
>
> Barker simply did hard work t hat anybody could have done, without an
> axe to grind.

Barker does has "an axe to grind." His whole conclusions are based on
his personal presuppositions therefore he cannot be recognized as
being objective. Secondly, his knowledge of Hebrew and Koine Greek is
quite limited and he is no expert on Biblical languages. Thirdly, he
intentionally rejects established sources simply because they show his
position on the passages in question to be incorrect.

> Why can't you assholes show a shred of honesty?

I am being intellectually honest about this. Unfortunately, as your
response shows, you are being not only intellectually dishonest, but
quite immature and uncivil. As such you disqualify yourself from any
credibility whatsoever.

> >It is becoming apparent that you are unable and/or unwilling to be
> >intellectually honest on this point and would rather rely on
> >unqualified sources (such as Dan Barker) rather than researching this
> >correctly. As such your claims become moot.
>
> Why are so many Christians such personal liars?

And your response merely gives further evidence of your inability to
engage in intelligent discourse. I will keep you in my prayers.

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
 
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 21:25:01 -0700, saints@nettally.com wrote:

>On Oct 4, 2:49 pm, Christopher A.Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:15:36 -0400, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:
>>
>> >"Denis Loubet" <dlou...@io.com> wrote in message
>> >news:4MqdnUEZltfqqJnanZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@io.com...
>>
>> >> All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not
>> >> MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.
>>
>> >> Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.
>>
>> >Actually the proper and most accurate translation of the Hebrew is "Thou
>> >shalt not murder." You could at least be intellectually honest about this.
>> >However if this is beyond your capabilities...
>>
>> Actually it's not. This is a rationalisation by in-denial believers.
>>
>> >The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"
>> >according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew
>> >Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded
>> >Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.
>>
>> Dan Barker checked all the words used for kill/slay/etc. From his
>> essay "Murder, she Wrote" in Losing Faith in Faith, copied without
>> permission, any typos are my own:
>>
>> [begin insert]
>>
>> Do the Ten Commandments really say "Thou shalt not murder"? The Hebrew
>> word for "kill" in Exodus 20:13 is ratsach. (The word for "slay" in
>> the contradictory command in Exodus 32:27 is haraq). Depending on
>> which version you use there are about ten Hebrew words which are
>> translated "kill". The five most common, in Hebrew order (with
>> translation in order of King James frequency) are:
>>
>> muth: (825) die, slay, put to death, kill
>> nakah: (502) smite, kill, slay, beat, wound, murder
>> haraq: (172) slay, kill, murder, destroy
>> zabach: (140) sacrifice, kill
>> ratsach: (47) slay[23], murder[17], kill[6], be put to death[1]
>>
>> Modern preachers must be smarter than the Hebrew translators if they
>> claim that ratsach means "murder" exclusively. Muth, nakah, haraq,
>> zabach and ratsach appear to be spilled all over the bible in an
>> imprecise and overlapping jumble of contexts, in much the same way
>> modern writers will swap synonyms.
>>
>> [end insert]
>>
>> He then gives several examples, quoting chapter and verse, showing
>> both the modern translation and the original word used. It is clear
>> that if "ratsach" always means murder then the meanings of these
>> verses become completely different.
>>
>> >May God bless,
>>
>> May you get a brain and stop being so in-your-face rude.
>
>Actually, Barker failed to compared the Koine Greek references that
>support the contention that the proper and most accurate translation
>of the Hebrew word "ratsach" in the passages in question in Exodus and
>Deuteronomy is indeed "to murder." Secondly Barker intentionally
>ignored the numerous established and recognized Hebrew and Greek
>dictionaries and ecyclopedias that also show this. Furthermore, his
>contention has been refuted by Biblical language scholars many times
>much to Barker's consternation.
>
>Again, Dan Barker is unqualified to be a recognized Biblical language
>scholar and his poor exegesis shows this. If Barker is your best
>source, then you are quite lacking in solid ground in regards to your
>position.

You keep repeating this rubbish, but you cannot read Hebrew!
It an intonement in this case to not commit blood vengeance.
How many times must you be told?

You are unqualified to make coment on the matter.
 
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 21:29:29 -0700, saints@nettally.com wrote:

>On Oct 4, 2:52 pm, Christopher A.Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:30:59 -0700, sai...@nettally.com wrote:
>> >On Oct 4, 12:15 am, Meteorite Debris
>> ><epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
>> >> Last time that great scribe MarkA <nob...@nowhere.com> chipped away at
>> >> his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
>>
>> >> > A more accurate translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder."
>>
>> >> I believe this has been disputed. Dan Barker in his book says that
>> >> "kill" is a more accurate translation than "murder" for the commandment.
>>
>> >Barker isn't qualified as an expert in Biblical languages. His degree
>> >in Religion from Azusa Pacific University did not give him expert
>> >qualifications in Biblical languages, specifically in this case,
>> >Hebrew and Koine Greek. So your source is flawed. Actual Biblical
>> >language experts teach that both the Hebrew and Koine Greek that
>> >reference this commandment are most accurately translated as "to
>> >murder." The recognized scholarly sources such as Thayer's and
>> >Strong's support this as well. As do numerous other scholarly sources.
>>
>> Only among those who want it to mean that becvause they're in denial.
>>
>> Barker simply did hard work t hat anybody could have done, without an
>> axe to grind.
>
>Barker does has "an axe to grind." His whole conclusions are based on

Only in the fantasies of deluded religionists.

>his personal presuppositions therefore he cannot be recognized as

Liar.

>being objective. Secondly, his knowledge of Hebrew and Koine Greek is
>quite limited and he is no expert on Biblical languages. Thirdly, he

So what?

Anybody can repeat what he did.

>intentionally rejects established sources simply because they show his

Liar.

>position on the passages in question to be incorrect.

Liar.

>> Why can't you assholes show a shred of honesty?
>
>I am being intellectually honest about this. Unfortunately, as your

Liar.

>response shows, you are being not only intellectually dishonest, but

Liar.

>quite immature and uncivil. As such you disqualify yourself from any
>credibility whatsoever.

Liar.

I am simply calling an in-denial intellectually dishonest religionist
what he shows himself to be.

>> >It is becoming apparent that you are unable and/or unwilling to be
>> >intellectually honest on this point and would rather rely on
>> >unqualified sources (such as Dan Barker) rather than researching this
>> >correctly. As such your claims become moot.
>>
>> Why are so many Christians such personal liars?
>
>And your response merely gives further evidence of your inability to
>engage in intelligent discourse.

Liar.

> I will keep you in my prayers.

Deliberate nastiness.
>May God bless,

**** off and die.

>Carl
>my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
>my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
 
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 14:51:13 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 21:25:01 -0700, saints@nettally.com wrote:
>
>>On Oct 4, 2:49 pm, Christopher A.Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:15:36 -0400, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >"Denis Loubet" <dlou...@io.com> wrote in message
>>> >news:4MqdnUEZltfqqJnanZ2dnUVZ_s2tnZ2d@io.com...
>>>
>>> >> All the theist has to do is edit the god's word to read "Thou shalt not
>>> >> MURDER!" and everything is magically cool.
>>>
>>> >> Just interpret the bible, and you can justify anything.
>>>
>>> >Actually the proper and most accurate translation of the Hebrew is "Thou
>>> >shalt not murder." You could at least be intellectually honest about this.
>>> >However if this is beyond your capabilities...
>>>
>>> Actually it's not. This is a rationalisation by in-denial believers.
>>>
>>> >The Hebrew word used in the verse is "ratsach" which means "murder"
>>> >according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew
>>> >Lexicon. Also New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded
>>> >Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defines it as "murder" as well.
>>>
>>> Dan Barker checked all the words used for kill/slay/etc. From his
>>> essay "Murder, she Wrote" in Losing Faith in Faith, copied without
>>> permission, any typos are my own:
>>>
>>> [begin insert]
>>>
>>> Do the Ten Commandments really say "Thou shalt not murder"? The Hebrew
>>> word for "kill" in Exodus 20:13 is ratsach. (The word for "slay" in
>>> the contradictory command in Exodus 32:27 is haraq). Depending on
>>> which version you use there are about ten Hebrew words which are
>>> translated "kill". The five most common, in Hebrew order (with
>>> translation in order of King James frequency) are:
>>>
>>> muth: (825) die, slay, put to death, kill
>>> nakah: (502) smite, kill, slay, beat, wound, murder
>>> haraq: (172) slay, kill, murder, destroy
>>> zabach: (140) sacrifice, kill
>>> ratsach: (47) slay[23], murder[17], kill[6], be put to death[1]
>>>
>>> Modern preachers must be smarter than the Hebrew translators if they
>>> claim that ratsach means "murder" exclusively. Muth, nakah, haraq,
>>> zabach and ratsach appear to be spilled all over the bible in an
>>> imprecise and overlapping jumble of contexts, in much the same way
>>> modern writers will swap synonyms.
>>>
>>> [end insert]
>>>
>>> He then gives several examples, quoting chapter and verse, showing
>>> both the modern translation and the original word used. It is clear
>>> that if "ratsach" always means murder then the meanings of these
>>> verses become completely different.
>>>
>>> >May God bless,
>>>
>>> May you get a brain and stop being so in-your-face rude.
>>
>>Actually, Barker failed to compared the Koine Greek references that
>>support the contention that the proper and most accurate translation
>>of the Hebrew word "ratsach" in the passages in question in Exodus and
>>Deuteronomy is indeed "to murder." Secondly Barker intentionally
>>ignored the numerous established and recognized Hebrew and Greek
>>dictionaries and ecyclopedias that also show this. Furthermore, his
>>contention has been refuted by Biblical language scholars many times
>>much to Barker's consternation.
>>
>>Again, Dan Barker is unqualified to be a recognized Biblical language
>>scholar and his poor exegesis shows this. If Barker is your best
>>source, then you are quite lacking in solid ground in regards to your
>>position.
>
>You keep repeating this rubbish, but you cannot read Hebrew!
>It an intonement in this case to not commit blood vengeance.
>How many times must you be told?

Anybody can repeat what Barker did - and will reach the same result.
Whether they are Christian or anything else.

Barker has no bias here. He lost it when he ceased to be a Christian -
after trying desperately to hang on to his faith.

But that is a standard Christian falsehood, to accuse those who don't
believe as they do of a priori bias.

>You are unqualified to make coment on the matter.

Yep.
 

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