Time to Apologize to Plame/Wilson

"Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
news:fgpvrf$adc$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
> news:fgo3lo$jav$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>
>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place? Well,
>>>>according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>
>>>
>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>
>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>
>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>
> Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald concluded that she was. The Director of the
> CIA confirmed that she was. After all of the information that has been
> made available concerning her covert status, only a complete moron would
> continue to deny it.


It was Fitzgeralds' and the CIA's Director opinion. Fitzgerald had to prove
it. ... that was the problem. He didn't prove it. All he did was find
Libby guilty of purgery and obstruction of justice. He know who the leaker
was before the trial. He didn't prove it .... until he proves it, it
remains his opinion.
>
>
> www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3?language=printer
>
> Leak of Agent's Name Causes Exposure of CIA Front Firm
>
> By Walter Pincus and Mike Allen
> Washington Post Staff Writers
> Saturday, October 4, 2003; Page A03
>
>
> The leak of a CIA operative's name has also exposed the identity of a CIA
> front company, potentially expanding the damage caused by the original
> disclosure, Bush administration officials said yesterday.
>
> The company's identity, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, became public
> because it appeared in Federal Election Commission records on a form
> filled out in 1999 by Valerie Plame, the case officer at the center of the
> controversy, when she contributed $1,000 to Al Gore's presidential primary
> campaign.
>
> After the name of the company was broadcast yesterday, administration
> officials confirmed that it was a CIA front. They said the obscure and
> possibly defunct firm was listed as Plame's employer on her W-2 tax forms
> in 1999 when she was working undercover for the CIA. Plame's name was
> first published July 14 in a newspaper column by Robert D. Novak that
> quoted two senior administration officials. They were critical of her
> husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, for his handling of a CIA
> mission that undercut President Bush's claim that Iraq had sought uranium
> from the African nation of Niger for possible use in developing nuclear
> weapons.


All opinions bro ... you have to prove who the leaker was and that he broke
the law. It wasn't done.

> The Justice Department began a formal criminal investigation of the leak
> Sept. 26.


As a result of that investigation no one was charged with leaking Ms Plame's
name. Libby was found to have purgered himself and obstructed justice.

> The inadvertent disclosure of the name of a business affiliated with the
> CIA underscores the potential damage to the agency and its operatives
> caused by the leak of Plame's identity. Intelligence officials have said
> that once Plame's job as an undercover operative was revealed, other
> agency secrets could be unraveled and her sources might be compromised or
> endangered.
>
> A former diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity said yesterday that
> every foreign intelligence service would run Plame's name through its
> databases within hours of its publication to determine if she had visited
> their country and to reconstruct her activities.
>
> "That's why the agency is so sensitive about just publishing her name,"
> the former diplomat said.
>
> FEC rules require donors to list their employment. Plame used her married
> name, Valerie E. Wilson, and listed her employment as an "analyst" with
> Brewster-Jennings & Associates. The document establishes that Plame has
> worked undercover within the past five years. The time frame is one of the
> standards used in making determinations about whether a disclosure is a
> criminal violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.


Was anyone found guilty of breaking the Intell Indent Protection Act?

> It could not be learned yesterday whether other CIA operatives were
> associated with Brewster-Jennings.
>
> Also yesterday, the nearly 2,000 employees of the White House were given a
> Tuesday deadline to scour their files and computers for any records
> related to Wilson or contacts with journalists about Wilson. The broad
> order, in an e-mail from White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales, directed
> them to retain records "that relate in any way to former U.S. Ambassador
> Joseph C. Wilson, his trip to Niger in February 2002, or his wife's
> purported relationship with the Central Intelligence Agency."


Fitzgerald knew before the trial started who the real leaker was ... R
Armitage of the State Dept.
From Aspen we get this report of a talk by Karl Rove and a comment from the
audience by former Secretary of State Powell:

Former Secretary of State Colin Powell stood up in the audience during the
question-and-answer period to say that it was his deputy secretary of state,
Richard Armitage, who sparked the CIA leak case. Powell said that Armitage
responded to a question by Novak about Wilson, saying "I think she works for
the CIA..."


Powell said that Armitage later called him and told him he had been the
one who had talked to Novak about Wilson. Powell and Armitage then met with
the FBI on the matter.


"The FBI knew on day one of Mr. Armitage's involvement," Powell said.


And so did Patrick Fitzgerald, Powell said. Fitzgerald was the special
counsel brought in to find out if someone had maliciously exposed Ms.
Wilson's undercover identity with the CIA, where she was known as Valerie
Plame.


"If everybody who had any contact with a reporter during that period, had
done what Armitage had done, I think this would have ended early on and not
dragged out the way it has dragged out," Powell said, adding that he knew
early on that no crime had been committed in the incident. "Mr. Libby got in
trouble for an entirely different set of reasons and circumstances."
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/07/parsing_powell.html
>
> White House employees received the e-mailed directive at 12:45 p.m.,

with an
> all-capitalized subject line saying, "Important Follow-Up Message From
> Counsel's Office." By 5 p.m. on Tuesday, employees must turn over copies

of
> relevant electronic records, telephone records, message slips, phone

logs,
> computer records, memos, and diaries and calendar entries.
>
> The directive notes that lawyers in the counsel's office are attorneys

for
> the president in his official capacity and that they cannot provide

personal
> legal advice to employees.
>
> For some officials, the task is a massive one. Some White House

officials
> said they had numerous conversations with Wilson that had nothing to do

with
> his wife, so the directive is seen as a heavy burden at a time when many

of
> the president's aides already feel beleaguered.
>
> Officials at the Pentagon and State Department also have been asked to
> retain records related to the case. Secretary of State Colin L. Powell

said
> yesterday: "We are doing our searches. . . . I'm not sure what they will

be
> looking for or what they wish to contact us about, but we are anxious to

be
> of all assistance to the inquiry."
>
> In another development, FBI agents yesterday began attempts to interview
> journalists who may have had conversations with government sources about
> Plame and Wilson. It was not clear how many journalists had been

contacted.
> The FBI has interviewed Plame, ABC News reported.
>
> Wilson and his wife have hired Washington lawyer Christopher Wolf to
> represent them in the matter.
>
> The couple has directed him to take a preliminary look at claims they

might
> be able to make against people they believe have impugned their

character, a
> source said.
>
> The name of the CIA front company was broadcast yesterday by Novak, the
> syndicated journalist who originally identified Plame. Novak,

highlighting
> Wilson's ties to Democrats, said on CNN that Wilson's "wife, the CIA
> employee, gave $1,000 to Gore and she listed herself as an employee of
> Brewster-Jennings & Associates."
>
> "There is no such firm, I'm convinced," he continued. "CIA people are

not
> supposed to list themselves with fictitious firms if they're under a

deep
> cover -- they're supposed to be real firms, or so I'm told. Sort of adds

to
> the little mystery."
>
> In fact, it appears the firm did exist, at least on paper. The Dun &
> Bradstreet database of company names lists a firm that is called both
> Brewster Jennings & Associates and Jennings Brewster & Associates.
>
> The phone number in the listing is not in service, and the property

manager
> at the address listed said there is no such company at the property,
> although records from 2000 were not available.
>
> Wilson was originally listed as having given $2,000 to Gore during the
> primary campaign in 1999, but the donation, over the legal limit of

$1,000,
> was "reattributed" so that Wilson and Plame each gave $1,000 to Gore.

Wilson
> also gave $1,000 to the Bush primary campaign, but there is no donation
> listed from his wife.
>
> Staff writers Dana Milbank, Susan Schmidt and Dana Priest, political
> researcher Brian Faler and researcher Lucy Shackelford contributed to

this
> report.
>
>
>
>
 
"Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:fgqcfb$s1q$1@news04.infoave.net...
>
> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
> news:fgq01p$anc$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>> news:fgpttd$df0$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>
>>> "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfgrey@infectedmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:472fee2a$0$17059$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgo50h$klt$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:spMXi.21666$u7.14445@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>>>> Joe Irvin wrote:
>>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>>> Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's the CIA
>>>>>> afraid of that
>>>>>> caused all the
>>>>>> redaction in
>>>>>> her book?
>>>>>
>>>>> I would guess, it was/is classified material. This doesn't mean she
>>>>> was a 'covert agent.' One can be cleared to handle classified
>>>>> material and not be a covert agent.
>>>>
>>>> And yet the CIA says she was a covert agent. So did the prosecutor.
>>>> So did the judge.
>>>
>>> They can say anything they want, but no one was held responsible for
>>> leaking Ms Plame's name.

>>
>> That is because the law required Fitzgerald to prove that leaker knew of
>> her covert status. He was unable to do that.

>
> Fitzgerald knew who leaked her name before the trial began, so did the
> FBI. Why didn't he put Amitage on the stand and find out? Its cost a man
> his reputation and job. How irresponsible is that?


It's not at all irresponsible. All Libby had to do was tell the truth. He
chose not to do that. Libby's choice cost him his reputation and job, not
Fitzgerald's attempt to determine if the leaking of a covert operative's
name was a conspiracy.

>
>>>The Judge, the FBI and Fitzgerald all knew who the real leaker was,
>>>Armitage of the State Dept.

>>
>> Karl Rove and Scooter Libby also leaked her name -- do try to keep up.
>> All of this came out in the Libby trial.

>
> Yes it came out at the trial. Fitzgerald and the FBI knew before the
> trial began who the leaker was. What was Fitzgeralds agenda?


Fitzgerald attempted to determine if any of the leakers (Armitage, Rove, and
Libby) knew of Plame's covert status and if a conspiracy existed.

The trial was not about the leak -- it was about Libby's lies.

>
>>>He has not been charged ... no one to my knowledge has been charged with
>>>leaking Ms Plame's name. Even the judge has to go by the law ...
>>>apparently it was not broken since no one has been charged with leaking.

>>
>> Fitzgerald could not prove, as required by the applicable law, that any
>> of the leakers knew that she was a covert operative.

>
> How do you know Fitzgerald couldn't prove anything


It's very simple -- nobody was charged.

>... Armitage never was charged with leaking Ms Plame's name.


Correct. Fitzgerald could not prove that he knew of Plame's covert status.

>Something else was going on ... I don't know what it was, but it was
>something. Fitzgerald knew the leaker before the trial began.


There were three leakers -- Rove, Libby, and Armitage. Had Fitzgerald been
able to prove that any of them knew of Plame's covert status, that person
would have been charged.

Libby's trial was not about the leak -- it was about his lies.

>>
>>>
>>>> Why do you hate America?
>>>
>>> What makes you think I hate America?

>>
>> Anybody who continues to deny the truth about the criminals in the White
>> House hates America.

>
> Until you can prove this was a crime, it your opinion only. Your opinion
> is not law. The only thing I denied was that Ms Plame was a 'covert
> agent' according to the law. No one was convicted of 'leaking' her name.


A jury has already determined that Libby committed multiple felonies. Libby
is a criminal.
 
"Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:fgqcjp$s9o$1@news04.infoave.net...
>
> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
> news:fgpvsb$adn$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>> news:fgo50h$klt$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>
>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>> news:spMXi.21666$u7.14445@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>> Joe Irvin wrote:
>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>> Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>
>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>
>>>> What's the CIA
>>>> afraid of that
>>>> caused all the
>>>> redaction in
>>>> her book?
>>>
>>> I would guess, it was/is classified material. This doesn't mean she
>>> was a 'covert agent.' One can be cleared to handle classified material
>>> and not be a covert agent.

>>
>> The Director of the CIA confirmed that she was covert.

>
> That was his opinion, it was not the law. The CIA Director doesn't get to
> interpret the law, the courts do.


Plame's covert status was established in the Libby trial and later confirmed
by the Director of the CIA. The law states that the identities of
classified U.S. intelligence officers are protected if they have "served
within the last five years outside the United States." The Director of the
CIA confirmed that Plame was a classified U.S. intelligence officer who had
served within the five years prior to the revelation of her identity by
Armitage, Rove, and Libby outside of the United States. So, it was not his
opinion.
 
"Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:fgqd52$sn5$1@news04.infoave.net...
>
> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
> news:fgq3j6$jo7$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>> news:fgpuhn$e8m$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>
>>> "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfgrey@infectedmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:472fedd0$0$17059$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgo3lo$jav$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>
>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>
>>>> Well, according to the CIA, she was. But I guess traitors like
>>>> yourself just don't care about treason.
>>>
>>> The CIA doesn't get to determine what the law is, the courts do. They
>>> have to follow the law just like everyone else. No one was found to
>>> have leaked Ms Plame's name, so what the CIA says really has no meaning,
>>> its just their opinion. To recognize this makes me treasonous???

>>
>> Armitage, Rove, and Libby all were found to have leaked Plame's name.
>> Armitage leaked it to Novak, Rove leaked it to Cooper, and Libby leaked
>> it to Miller. All of this came out in Libby's trial. Did you miss it?

>
> Didn't miss anything, I don't think. Which one of them were convicted of
> leaking Ms Plame's name, the reason for the trial?


You missed a great deal. The reason for the trial was Libby's lies to a
federal officer and obstruction of justice.


> Libby if I remember correctly was convicted of purgery/obstruction of
> justice. ... no one was charged with leaking Ms Plame's name.


That is correct. That does not change the fact that Armitage, Rove, and
Libby all were found to have leaked Plame's name to the media. The fact
that they were not prosecuted was Fitzgerald's inability to prove, as
required by the law, that they knew of her covert status.
 
"Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:fgqe7d$tq3$1@news04.infoave.net...
>
> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
> news:fgpvrf$adc$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>> news:fgo3lo$jav$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>
>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place? Well,
>>>>>according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>
>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>
>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>
>> Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald concluded that she was. The Director of
>> the CIA confirmed that she was. After all of the information that has
>> been made available concerning her covert status, only a complete moron
>> would continue to deny it.

>
> It was Fitzgeralds' and the CIA's Director opinion. Fitzgerald had to
> prove it. ... that was the problem. He didn't prove it. All he did was
> find Libby guilty of purgery and obstruction of justice. He know who the
> leaker was before the trial. He didn't prove it .... until he proves it,
> it remains his opinion.
>>
>>
>> www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3?language=printer
>>
>> Leak of Agent's Name Causes Exposure of CIA Front Firm
>>
>> By Walter Pincus and Mike Allen
>> Washington Post Staff Writers
>> Saturday, October 4, 2003; Page A03
>>
>>
>> The leak of a CIA operative's name has also exposed the identity of a CIA
>> front company, potentially expanding the damage caused by the original
>> disclosure, Bush administration officials said yesterday.
>>
>> The company's identity, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, became public
>> because it appeared in Federal Election Commission records on a form
>> filled out in 1999 by Valerie Plame, the case officer at the center of
>> the controversy, when she contributed $1,000 to Al Gore's presidential
>> primary campaign.
>>
>> After the name of the company was broadcast yesterday, administration
>> officials confirmed that it was a CIA front. They said the obscure and
>> possibly defunct firm was listed as Plame's employer on her W-2 tax forms
>> in 1999 when she was working undercover for the CIA. Plame's name was
>> first published July 14 in a newspaper column by Robert D. Novak that
>> quoted two senior administration officials. They were critical of her
>> husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, for his handling of a CIA
>> mission that undercut President Bush's claim that Iraq had sought uranium
>> from the African nation of Niger for possible use in developing nuclear
>> weapons.

>
> All opinions bro ... you have to prove who the leaker was and that he
> broke the law. It wasn't done.



We know who the leakers were -- Armitage, Rove, and Libby. They were not
charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her covert status as
required by the law.


>
>> The Justice Department began a formal criminal investigation of the leak
>> Sept. 26.

>
> As a result of that investigation no one was charged with leaking Ms
> Plame's name. Libby was found to have purgered himself and obstructed
> justice.


The fact that nobody was charged with the leak does not change the fact that
Libby, Rove, and Armitage all leaked her name to the media. They were not
charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her covert status as
required by the law.

>
>> The inadvertent disclosure of the name of a business affiliated with the
>> CIA underscores the potential damage to the agency and its operatives
>> caused by the leak of Plame's identity. Intelligence officials have said
>> that once Plame's job as an undercover operative was revealed, other
>> agency secrets could be unraveled and her sources might be compromised or
>> endangered.
>>
>> A former diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity said yesterday that
>> every foreign intelligence service would run Plame's name through its
>> databases within hours of its publication to determine if she had visited
>> their country and to reconstruct her activities.
>>
>> "That's why the agency is so sensitive about just publishing her name,"
>> the former diplomat said.
>>
>> FEC rules require donors to list their employment. Plame used her married
>> name, Valerie E. Wilson, and listed her employment as an "analyst" with
>> Brewster-Jennings & Associates. The document establishes that Plame has
>> worked undercover within the past five years. The time frame is one of
>> the standards used in making determinations about whether a disclosure is
>> a criminal violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

>
> Was anyone found guilty of breaking the Intell Indent Protection Act?


Nope. The fact that nobody was charged with the leak does not change the
fact that Libby, Rove, and Armitage all leaked her name to the media. They
were not charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her covert
status as required by the law.

>
>> It could not be learned yesterday whether other CIA operatives were
>> associated with Brewster-Jennings.
>>
>> Also yesterday, the nearly 2,000 employees of the White House were given
>> a Tuesday deadline to scour their files and computers for any records
>> related to Wilson or contacts with journalists about Wilson. The broad
>> order, in an e-mail from White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales,
>> directed them to retain records "that relate in any way to former U.S.
>> Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, his trip to Niger in February 2002, or his
>> wife's purported relationship with the Central Intelligence Agency."

>
> Fitzgerald knew before the trial started who the real leaker was ... R
> Armitage of the State Dept.


The real leakers were Armitage (to Novak), Rove (to Cooper), and Libby (to
Miller). This was revealed during Libby's trial.

> From Aspen we get this report of a talk by Karl Rove and a comment from
> the audience by former Secretary of State Powell:
>
> Former Secretary of State Colin Powell stood up in the audience during
> the question-and-answer period to say that it was his deputy secretary of
> state, Richard Armitage, who sparked the CIA leak case. Powell said that
> Armitage responded to a question by Novak about Wilson, saying "I think
> she works for the CIA..."


That was one of the leaks. The others came from Libby and Rove.

>
>
> Powell said that Armitage later called him and told him he had been the
> one who had talked to Novak about Wilson. Powell and Armitage then met
> with the FBI on the matter.
>
>
> "The FBI knew on day one of Mr. Armitage's involvement," Powell said.
>
>
> And so did Patrick Fitzgerald, Powell said. Fitzgerald was the special
> counsel brought in to find out if someone had maliciously exposed Ms.
> Wilson's undercover identity with the CIA, where she was known as Valerie
> Plame.
>
>
> "If everybody who had any contact with a reporter during that period, had
> done what Armitage had done, I think this would have ended early on and
> not dragged out the way it has dragged out," Powell said, adding that he
> knew early on that no crime had been committed in the incident. "Mr. Libby
> got in trouble for an entirely different set of reasons and
> circumstances."


Correct. Libby lied, probably to cover up Cheney's involvement.


> http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/07/parsing_powell.html
> >
> > White House employees received the e-mailed directive at 12:45 p.m.,

> with an
> > all-capitalized subject line saying, "Important Follow-Up Message From
> > Counsel's Office." By 5 p.m. on Tuesday, employees must turn over

> copies of
> > relevant electronic records, telephone records, message slips, phone

> logs,
> > computer records, memos, and diaries and calendar entries.
> >
> > The directive notes that lawyers in the counsel's office are attorneys

> for
> > the president in his official capacity and that they cannot provide

> personal
> > legal advice to employees.
> >
> > For some officials, the task is a massive one. Some White House

> officials
> > said they had numerous conversations with Wilson that had nothing to do

> with
> > his wife, so the directive is seen as a heavy burden at a time when

> many of
> > the president's aides already feel beleaguered.
> >
> > Officials at the Pentagon and State Department also have been asked to
> > retain records related to the case. Secretary of State Colin L. Powell

> said
> > yesterday: "We are doing our searches. . . . I'm not sure what they

> will be
> > looking for or what they wish to contact us about, but we are anxious

> to be
> > of all assistance to the inquiry."
> >
> > In another development, FBI agents yesterday began attempts to

> interview
> > journalists who may have had conversations with government sources

> about
> > Plame and Wilson. It was not clear how many journalists had been

> contacted.
> > The FBI has interviewed Plame, ABC News reported.
> >
> > Wilson and his wife have hired Washington lawyer Christopher Wolf to
> > represent them in the matter.
> >
> > The couple has directed him to take a preliminary look at claims they

> might
> > be able to make against people they believe have impugned their

> character, a
> > source said.
> >
> > The name of the CIA front company was broadcast yesterday by Novak, the
> > syndicated journalist who originally identified Plame. Novak,

> highlighting
> > Wilson's ties to Democrats, said on CNN that Wilson's "wife, the CIA
> > employee, gave $1,000 to Gore and she listed herself as an employee of
> > Brewster-Jennings & Associates."
> >
> > "There is no such firm, I'm convinced," he continued. "CIA people are

> not
> > supposed to list themselves with fictitious firms if they're under a

> deep
> > cover -- they're supposed to be real firms, or so I'm told. Sort of

> adds to
> > the little mystery."
> >
> > In fact, it appears the firm did exist, at least on paper. The Dun &
> > Bradstreet database of company names lists a firm that is called both
> > Brewster Jennings & Associates and Jennings Brewster & Associates.
> >
> > The phone number in the listing is not in service, and the property

> manager
> > at the address listed said there is no such company at the property,
> > although records from 2000 were not available.
> >
> > Wilson was originally listed as having given $2,000 to Gore during the
> > primary campaign in 1999, but the donation, over the legal limit of

> $1,000,
> > was "reattributed" so that Wilson and Plame each gave $1,000 to Gore.

> Wilson
> > also gave $1,000 to the Bush primary campaign, but there is no donation
> > listed from his wife.
> >
> > Staff writers Dana Milbank, Susan Schmidt and Dana Priest, political
> > researcher Brian Faler and researcher Lucy Shackelford contributed to

> this
> > report.
> >
> >
> >
> >
 
"Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
news:fgqfsc$jrd$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
> news:fgqcjp$s9o$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>
>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>> news:fgpvsb$adn$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:fgo50h$klt$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:spMXi.21666$u7.14445@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>>> Joe Irvin wrote:
>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>> Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>
>>>>> What's the CIA
>>>>> afraid of that
>>>>> caused all the
>>>>> redaction in
>>>>> her book?
>>>>
>>>> I would guess, it was/is classified material. This doesn't mean she
>>>> was a 'covert agent.' One can be cleared to handle classified material
>>>> and not be a covert agent.
>>>
>>> The Director of the CIA confirmed that she was covert.

>>
>> That was his opinion, it was not the law. The CIA Director doesn't get
>> to interpret the law, the courts do.

>
> Plame's covert status was established in the Libby trial and later
> confirmed by the Director of the CIA. The law states that the identities
> of classified U.S. intelligence officers are protected if they have
> "served within the last five years outside the United States." The
> Director of the CIA confirmed that Plame was a classified U.S.
> intelligence officer who had served within the five years prior to the
> revelation of her identity by Armitage, Rove, and Libby outside of the
> United States. So, it was not his opinion.


Then explain why no one was covicted of leaking Ms Plame's name. Even
though Fitzgerald and the FBI knew from before the trial started who the
leaker was no one was convicted of leaking ...
>
>
 
"Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
news:fgqg1b$k9r$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
> news:fgqd52$sn5$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>
>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>> news:fgq3j6$jo7$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:fgpuhn$e8m$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfgrey@infectedmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:472fedd0$0$17059$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:fgo3lo$jav$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, according to the CIA, she was. But I guess traitors like
>>>>> yourself just don't care about treason.
>>>>
>>>> The CIA doesn't get to determine what the law is, the courts do. They
>>>> have to follow the law just like everyone else. No one was found to
>>>> have leaked Ms Plame's name, so what the CIA says really has no
>>>> meaning, its just their opinion. To recognize this makes me
>>>> treasonous???
>>>
>>> Armitage, Rove, and Libby all were found to have leaked Plame's name.
>>> Armitage leaked it to Novak, Rove leaked it to Cooper, and Libby leaked
>>> it to Miller. All of this came out in Libby's trial. Did you miss it?

>>
>> Didn't miss anything, I don't think. Which one of them were convicted of
>> leaking Ms Plame's name, the reason for the trial?

>
> You missed a great deal. The reason for the trial was Libby's lies to a
> federal officer and obstruction of justice.


No, you are wrong. It was to find out who the leaker was. The trial was
not about Liddy, it was about finding the leaker. ... There wouldn't even
been a trial for Libby ... no one knew he lied until the trial.
>
>
>> Libby if I remember correctly was convicted of purgery/obstruction of
>> justice. ... no one was charged with leaking Ms Plame's name.

>
> That is correct. That does not change the fact that Armitage, Rove, and
> Libby all were found to have leaked Plame's name to the media. The fact
> that they were not prosecuted was Fitzgerald's inability to prove, as
> required by the law, that they knew of her covert status.


The above may have leaked Ms Plame's name but it was not illegal to do so or
they would have been charged. If I remember correctly the original leaker,
Armitage wasn't even charged with leaking, so we don't know what Fitzgerald
could/couldn't do. None of the above were found guilty of leaking Ms
Plame's name ... True?
>
>
 
"Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
news:fgqgd1$l8u$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
> news:fgqe7d$tq3$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>
>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>> news:fgpvrf$adc$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:fgo3lo$jav$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>
>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place? Well,
>>>>>>according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>
>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>
>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>
>>> Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald concluded that she was. The Director of
>>> the CIA confirmed that she was. After all of the information that has
>>> been made available concerning her covert status, only a complete moron
>>> would continue to deny it.

>>
>> It was Fitzgeralds' and the CIA's Director opinion. Fitzgerald had to
>> prove it. ... that was the problem. He didn't prove it. All he did was
>> find Libby guilty of purgery and obstruction of justice. He know who the
>> leaker was before the trial. He didn't prove it .... until he proves it,
>> it remains his opinion.
>>>
>>>
>>> www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3?language=printer
>>>
>>> Leak of Agent's Name Causes Exposure of CIA Front Firm
>>>
>>> By Walter Pincus and Mike Allen
>>> Washington Post Staff Writers
>>> Saturday, October 4, 2003; Page A03
>>>
>>>
>>> The leak of a CIA operative's name has also exposed the identity of a
>>> CIA front company, potentially expanding the damage caused by the
>>> original disclosure, Bush administration officials said yesterday.
>>>
>>> The company's identity, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, became public
>>> because it appeared in Federal Election Commission records on a form
>>> filled out in 1999 by Valerie Plame, the case officer at the center of
>>> the controversy, when she contributed $1,000 to Al Gore's presidential
>>> primary campaign.
>>>
>>> After the name of the company was broadcast yesterday, administration
>>> officials confirmed that it was a CIA front. They said the obscure and
>>> possibly defunct firm was listed as Plame's employer on her W-2 tax
>>> forms in 1999 when she was working undercover for the CIA. Plame's name
>>> was first published July 14 in a newspaper column by Robert D. Novak
>>> that quoted two senior administration officials. They were critical of
>>> her husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, for his handling of
>>> a CIA mission that undercut President Bush's claim that Iraq had sought
>>> uranium from the African nation of Niger for possible use in developing
>>> nuclear weapons.

>>
>> All opinions bro ... you have to prove who the leaker was and that he
>> broke the law. It wasn't done.

>
>
> We know who the leakers were -- Armitage, Rove, and Libby. They were not
> charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her covert status
> as required by the law.


Then you agree with me, that the leaking of Ms Plame's name was in some way
illegal. If it had been illegal someone would have been charged and found
guilty ... no law was broken, except for Libby's purgery/obstruction of
justice.
>
>
>>
>>> The Justice Department began a formal criminal investigation of the leak
>>> Sept. 26.

>>
>> As a result of that investigation no one was charged with leaking Ms
>> Plame's name. Libby was found to have purgered himself and obstructed
>> justice.

>
> The fact that nobody was charged with the leak does not change the fact
> that Libby, Rove, and Armitage all leaked her name to the media. They
> were not charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her
> covert status as required by the law.


They broke no law, so what difference does it make that they leaked Ms
Plame's name. If I make a withdrawal form my account and someone charges me
with bank robbery and I'm not found guilty of bankrobbery, doesn't mean just
because I took money from my bank account that I robbed the bank.
>
>>
>>> The inadvertent disclosure of the name of a business affiliated with the
>>> CIA underscores the potential damage to the agency and its operatives
>>> caused by the leak of Plame's identity. Intelligence officials have said
>>> that once Plame's job as an undercover operative was revealed, other
>>> agency secrets could be unraveled and her sources might be compromised
>>> or endangered.
>>>
>>> A former diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity said yesterday
>>> that every foreign intelligence service would run Plame's name through
>>> its databases within hours of its publication to determine if she had
>>> visited their country and to reconstruct her activities.
>>>
>>> "That's why the agency is so sensitive about just publishing her name,"
>>> the former diplomat said.
>>>
>>> FEC rules require donors to list their employment. Plame used her
>>> married name, Valerie E. Wilson, and listed her employment as an
>>> "analyst" with Brewster-Jennings & Associates. The document establishes
>>> that Plame has worked undercover within the past five years. The time
>>> frame is one of the standards used in making determinations about
>>> whether a disclosure is a criminal violation of the Intelligence
>>> Identities Protection Act.

>>
>> Was anyone found guilty of breaking the Intell Indent Protection Act?

>
> Nope. The fact that nobody was charged with the leak does not change the
> fact that Libby, Rove, and Armitage all leaked her name to the media.
> They were not charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her
> covert status as required by the law.


Then you are trying to make an issue out of something that is not an issue.
No one was found guilty of leaking Ms Pflames name. Its your opinion that
they are guilty of anything. Legally they are not.

>>> It could not be learned yesterday whether other CIA operatives were
>>> associated with Brewster-Jennings.
>>>
>>> Also yesterday, the nearly 2,000 employees of the White House were given
>>> a Tuesday deadline to scour their files and computers for any records
>>> related to Wilson or contacts with journalists about Wilson. The broad
>>> order, in an e-mail from White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales,
>>> directed them to retain records "that relate in any way to former U.S.
>>> Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, his trip to Niger in February 2002, or his
>>> wife's purported relationship with the Central Intelligence Agency."

>>
>> Fitzgerald knew before the trial started who the real leaker was ... R
>> Armitage of the State Dept.

>
> The real leakers were Armitage (to Novak), Rove (to Cooper), and Libby (to
> Miller). This was revealed during Libby's trial.


So what ... if it was illegal they would have all been convicted of leaking
a covert agents name under the Intell Ident law. ... they were not. It
doesn't make any difference the reason, no one was convicted of leaking Ms
Plame's name.
>
>> From Aspen we get this report of a talk by Karl Rove and a comment from
>> the audience by former Secretary of State Powell:
>>
>> Former Secretary of State Colin Powell stood up in the audience during
>> the question-and-answer period to say that it was his deputy secretary of
>> state, Richard Armitage, who sparked the CIA leak case. Powell said that
>> Armitage responded to a question by Novak about Wilson, saying "I think
>> she works for the CIA..."

>
> That was one of the leaks. The others came from Libby and Rove.


And none were covicted of leaking a covert agents name, no matter what
reasons you may give.

>> Powell said that Armitage later called him and told him he had been the
>> one who had talked to Novak about Wilson. Powell and Armitage then met
>> with the FBI on the matter.
>>
>>
>> "The FBI knew on day one of Mr. Armitage's involvement," Powell said.
>>
>>
>> And so did Patrick Fitzgerald, Powell said. Fitzgerald was the special
>> counsel brought in to find out if someone had maliciously exposed Ms.
>> Wilson's undercover identity with the CIA, where she was known as Valerie
>> Plame.
>>
>>
>> "If everybody who had any contact with a reporter during that period,
>> had done what Armitage had done, I think this would have ended early on
>> and not dragged out the way it has dragged out," Powell said, adding that
>> he knew early on that no crime had been committed in the incident. "Mr.
>> Libby got in trouble for an entirely different set of reasons and
>> circumstances."

>
> Correct. Libby lied, probably to cover up Cheney's involvement.


Your opinion ... a man lost his reputation and job because of this fishing
trip. Fitzgerald know from the beginning who the leaker was.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/07/parsing_powell.html
>> >
>> > White House employees received the e-mailed directive at 12:45 p.m.,

>> with an
>> > all-capitalized subject line saying, "Important Follow-Up Message From
>> > Counsel's Office." By 5 p.m. on Tuesday, employees must turn over

>> copies of
>> > relevant electronic records, telephone records, message slips, phone

>> logs,
>> > computer records, memos, and diaries and calendar entries.
>> >
>> > The directive notes that lawyers in the counsel's office are attorneys

>> for
>> > the president in his official capacity and that they cannot provide

>> personal
>> > legal advice to employees.
>> >
>> > For some officials, the task is a massive one. Some White House

>> officials
>> > said they had numerous conversations with Wilson that had nothing to

>> do with
>> > his wife, so the directive is seen as a heavy burden at a time when

>> many of
>> > the president's aides already feel beleaguered.
>> >
>> > Officials at the Pentagon and State Department also have been asked to
>> > retain records related to the case. Secretary of State Colin L. Powell

>> said
>> > yesterday: "We are doing our searches. . . . I'm not sure what they

>> will be
>> > looking for or what they wish to contact us about, but we are anxious

>> to be
>> > of all assistance to the inquiry."
>> >
>> > In another development, FBI agents yesterday began attempts to

>> interview
>> > journalists who may have had conversations with government sources

>> about
>> > Plame and Wilson. It was not clear how many journalists had been

>> contacted.
>> > The FBI has interviewed Plame, ABC News reported.
>> >
>> > Wilson and his wife have hired Washington lawyer Christopher Wolf to
>> > represent them in the matter.
>> >
>> > The couple has directed him to take a preliminary look at claims they

>> might
>> > be able to make against people they believe have impugned their

>> character, a
>> > source said.
>> >
>> > The name of the CIA front company was broadcast yesterday by Novak,

>> the
>> > syndicated journalist who originally identified Plame. Novak,

>> highlighting
>> > Wilson's ties to Democrats, said on CNN that Wilson's "wife, the CIA
>> > employee, gave $1,000 to Gore and she listed herself as an employee of
>> > Brewster-Jennings & Associates."
>> >
>> > "There is no such firm, I'm convinced," he continued. "CIA people are

>> not
>> > supposed to list themselves with fictitious firms if they're under a

>> deep
>> > cover -- they're supposed to be real firms, or so I'm told. Sort of

>> adds to
>> > the little mystery."
>> >
>> > In fact, it appears the firm did exist, at least on paper. The Dun &
>> > Bradstreet database of company names lists a firm that is called both
>> > Brewster Jennings & Associates and Jennings Brewster & Associates.
>> >
>> > The phone number in the listing is not in service, and the property

>> manager
>> > at the address listed said there is no such company at the property,
>> > although records from 2000 were not available.
>> >
>> > Wilson was originally listed as having given $2,000 to Gore during the
>> > primary campaign in 1999, but the donation, over the legal limit of

>> $1,000,
>> > was "reattributed" so that Wilson and Plame each gave $1,000 to Gore.

>> Wilson
>> > also gave $1,000 to the Bush primary campaign, but there is no

>> donation
>> > listed from his wife.
>> >
>> > Staff writers Dana Milbank, Susan Schmidt and Dana Priest, political
>> > researcher Brian Faler and researcher Lucy Shackelford contributed to

>> this
>> > report.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
 
"Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:fgqh55$10f$1@news04.infoave.net...
>
> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
> news:fgqfsc$jrd$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>> news:fgqcjp$s9o$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>
>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fgpvsb$adn$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgo50h$klt$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:spMXi.21666$u7.14445@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>>>> Joe Irvin wrote:
>>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>>> Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's the CIA
>>>>>> afraid of that
>>>>>> caused all the
>>>>>> redaction in
>>>>>> her book?
>>>>>
>>>>> I would guess, it was/is classified material. This doesn't mean she
>>>>> was a 'covert agent.' One can be cleared to handle classified
>>>>> material and not be a covert agent.
>>>>
>>>> The Director of the CIA confirmed that she was covert.
>>>
>>> That was his opinion, it was not the law. The CIA Director doesn't get
>>> to interpret the law, the courts do.

>>
>> Plame's covert status was established in the Libby trial and later
>> confirmed by the Director of the CIA. The law states that the
>> identities of classified U.S. intelligence officers are protected if they
>> have "served within the last five years outside the United States." The
>> Director of the CIA confirmed that Plame was a classified U.S.
>> intelligence officer who had served within the five years prior to the
>> revelation of her identity by Armitage, Rove, and Libby outside of the
>> United States. So, it was not his opinion.

>
> Then explain why no one was covicted of leaking Ms Plame's name. Even
> though Fitzgerald and the FBI knew from before the trial started who the
> leaker was no one was convicted of leaking ...


I have done this about 20 times so far. But, here it is again. The law
requires that the leaker know the covert status of the CIA agent. How
****ing difficult is this to understand? Fitzgerald was not able to prove
that any of the leakers (Rove, Libby, Armitage) knew that Plame was covert,
only that they knew that she worked for the CIA. So, not being able to
prove that any of them knew of her covert status, he was not able to charge
anybody with violating the law.
 
"Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:fgqhh3$1e8$1@news04.infoave.net...
>
> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
> news:fgqg1b$k9r$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>> news:fgqd52$sn5$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>
>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fgq3j6$jo7$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgpuhn$e8m$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfgrey@infectedmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:472fedd0$0$17059$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:fgo3lo$jav$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>>according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, according to the CIA, she was. But I guess traitors like
>>>>>> yourself just don't care about treason.
>>>>>
>>>>> The CIA doesn't get to determine what the law is, the courts do. They
>>>>> have to follow the law just like everyone else. No one was found to
>>>>> have leaked Ms Plame's name, so what the CIA says really has no
>>>>> meaning, its just their opinion. To recognize this makes me
>>>>> treasonous???
>>>>
>>>> Armitage, Rove, and Libby all were found to have leaked Plame's name.
>>>> Armitage leaked it to Novak, Rove leaked it to Cooper, and Libby leaked
>>>> it to Miller. All of this came out in Libby's trial. Did you miss it?
>>>
>>> Didn't miss anything, I don't think. Which one of them were convicted
>>> of leaking Ms Plame's name, the reason for the trial?

>>
>> You missed a great deal. The reason for the trial was Libby's lies to a
>> federal officer and obstruction of justice.

>
> No, you are wrong. It was to find out who the leaker was. The trial was
> not about Liddy, it was about finding the leaker. ... There wouldn't
> even been a trial for Libby ... no one knew he lied until the trial.


No, you are wrong. You are pitifully wrong. A criminal trial requires an
indictment of one or more people. A criminal trial is not an investigation.
The trial was not "about finding the leaker."

www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/28/leak.probe/

"Libby resigned Friday after a federal grand jury indicted him on five
charges related to the leak probe: one count of obstruction of justice, two
counts of perjury and two counts of making false statements."

Libby was subsequently tried and found guilty on four of the five counts.

tinyurl.com/2f2auu


New York Times

March 7, 2007

Libby Guilty of Lying in C.I.A. Leak Case
By NEIL A. LEWIS
Correction Appended

WASHINGTON, March 6
 
"Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:fgqija$2if$1@news04.infoave.net...
>
> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
> news:fgqgd1$l8u$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>> news:fgqe7d$tq3$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>
>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fgpvrf$adc$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgo3lo$jav$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>
>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>
>>>> Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald concluded that she was. The Director of
>>>> the CIA confirmed that she was. After all of the information that has
>>>> been made available concerning her covert status, only a complete moron
>>>> would continue to deny it.
>>>
>>> It was Fitzgeralds' and the CIA's Director opinion. Fitzgerald had to
>>> prove it. ... that was the problem. He didn't prove it. All he did was
>>> find Libby guilty of purgery and obstruction of justice. He know who
>>> the leaker was before the trial. He didn't prove it .... until he
>>> proves it, it remains his opinion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3?language=printer
>>>>
>>>> Leak of Agent's Name Causes Exposure of CIA Front Firm
>>>>
>>>> By Walter Pincus and Mike Allen
>>>> Washington Post Staff Writers
>>>> Saturday, October 4, 2003; Page A03
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The leak of a CIA operative's name has also exposed the identity of a
>>>> CIA front company, potentially expanding the damage caused by the
>>>> original disclosure, Bush administration officials said yesterday.
>>>>
>>>> The company's identity, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, became public
>>>> because it appeared in Federal Election Commission records on a form
>>>> filled out in 1999 by Valerie Plame, the case officer at the center of
>>>> the controversy, when she contributed $1,000 to Al Gore's presidential
>>>> primary campaign.
>>>>
>>>> After the name of the company was broadcast yesterday, administration
>>>> officials confirmed that it was a CIA front. They said the obscure and
>>>> possibly defunct firm was listed as Plame's employer on her W-2 tax
>>>> forms in 1999 when she was working undercover for the CIA. Plame's name
>>>> was first published July 14 in a newspaper column by Robert D. Novak
>>>> that quoted two senior administration officials. They were critical of
>>>> her husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, for his handling of
>>>> a CIA mission that undercut President Bush's claim that Iraq had sought
>>>> uranium from the African nation of Niger for possible use in developing
>>>> nuclear weapons.
>>>
>>> All opinions bro ... you have to prove who the leaker was and that he
>>> broke the law. It wasn't done.

>>
>>
>> We know who the leakers were -- Armitage, Rove, and Libby. They were not
>> charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her covert status
>> as required by the law.

>
> Then you agree with me, that the leaking of Ms Plame's name was in some
> way illegal. If it had been illegal someone would have been charged and
> found guilty ... no law was broken, except for Libby's purgery/obstruction
> of justice.


I agree that Fitzgerald was unable to prove that any of the leakers knew of
Plame's covert status prior to leaking her name and was therefore unable to
prove that the law covering the outing of covert operatives had been broken.

>>
>>
>>>
>>>> The Justice Department began a formal criminal investigation of the
>>>> leak Sept. 26.
>>>
>>> As a result of that investigation no one was charged with leaking Ms
>>> Plame's name. Libby was found to have purgered himself and obstructed
>>> justice.

>>
>> The fact that nobody was charged with the leak does not change the fact
>> that Libby, Rove, and Armitage all leaked her name to the media. They
>> were not charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her
>> covert status as required by the law.

>
> They broke no law, so what difference does it make that they leaked Ms
> Plame's name.


It makes a great deal of difference because in the reckless leaking of her
name, they shut down a vital intelligence operation dealing with attempts by
Middle Eastern operatives to acquire nuclear weapons.

>If I make a withdrawal form my account and someone charges me with bank
>robbery and I'm not found guilty of bankrobbery, doesn't mean just because
>I took money from my bank account that I robbed the bank.


Your analogy is not at all similar to the Plame case.


>>
>>>
>>>> The inadvertent disclosure of the name of a business affiliated with
>>>> the CIA underscores the potential damage to the agency and its
>>>> operatives caused by the leak of Plame's identity. Intelligence
>>>> officials have said that once Plame's job as an undercover operative
>>>> was revealed, other agency secrets could be unraveled and her sources
>>>> might be compromised or endangered.
>>>>
>>>> A former diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity said yesterday
>>>> that every foreign intelligence service would run Plame's name through
>>>> its databases within hours of its publication to determine if she had
>>>> visited their country and to reconstruct her activities.
>>>>
>>>> "That's why the agency is so sensitive about just publishing her name,"
>>>> the former diplomat said.
>>>>
>>>> FEC rules require donors to list their employment. Plame used her
>>>> married name, Valerie E. Wilson, and listed her employment as an
>>>> "analyst" with Brewster-Jennings & Associates. The document establishes
>>>> that Plame has worked undercover within the past five years. The time
>>>> frame is one of the standards used in making determinations about
>>>> whether a disclosure is a criminal violation of the Intelligence
>>>> Identities Protection Act.
>>>
>>> Was anyone found guilty of breaking the Intell Indent Protection Act?

>>
>> Nope. The fact that nobody was charged with the leak does not change the
>> fact that Libby, Rove, and Armitage all leaked her name to the media.
>> They were not charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her
>> covert status as required by the law.

>
> Then you are trying to make an issue out of something that is not an
> issue. No one was found guilty of leaking Ms Pflames name. Its your
> opinion that they are guilty of anything. Legally they are not.


I have never said that they were guilty of anything. My original point was
that Plame was a covert operative and that their leak of her name
compromised an ongoing intelligence operation attempting to locate Middle
Eastern operatives attempting to acquire nuclear weapons.

>
>>>> It could not be learned yesterday whether other CIA operatives were
>>>> associated with Brewster-Jennings.
>>>>
>>>> Also yesterday, the nearly 2,000 employees of the White House were
>>>> given a Tuesday deadline to scour their files and computers for any
>>>> records related to Wilson or contacts with journalists about Wilson.
>>>> The broad order, in an e-mail from White House counsel Alberto R.
>>>> Gonzales, directed them to retain records "that relate in any way to
>>>> former U.S. Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, his trip to Niger in February
>>>> 2002, or his wife's purported relationship with the Central
>>>> Intelligence Agency."
>>>
>>> Fitzgerald knew before the trial started who the real leaker was ... R
>>> Armitage of the State Dept.

>>
>> The real leakers were Armitage (to Novak), Rove (to Cooper), and Libby
>> (to Miller). This was revealed during Libby's trial.

>
> So what ... if it was illegal they would have all been convicted of
> leaking a covert agents name under the Intell Ident law. ... they were
> not. It doesn't make any difference the reason, no one was convicted of
> leaking Ms Plame's name.


Their recklessness caused the identity of a covert agent to be revealed and
resulted in a vital intelligence operation having to be shut down. If you
don't think that this was a serious matter, then you are quite mistaken.


>>
>>> From Aspen we get this report of a talk by Karl Rove and a comment from
>>> the audience by former Secretary of State Powell:
>>>
>>> Former Secretary of State Colin Powell stood up in the audience during
>>> the question-and-answer period to say that it was his deputy secretary
>>> of state, Richard Armitage, who sparked the CIA leak case. Powell said
>>> that Armitage responded to a question by Novak about Wilson, saying "I
>>> think she works for the CIA..."

>>
>> That was one of the leaks. The others came from Libby and Rove.

>
> And none were covicted of leaking a covert agents name, no matter what
> reasons you may give.


I have never said that they were convicted. I have only stated that Plame
was a covert operative and that her name was leaked.

>
>>> Powell said that Armitage later called him and told him he had been the
>>> one who had talked to Novak about Wilson. Powell and Armitage then met
>>> with the FBI on the matter.
>>>
>>>
>>> "The FBI knew on day one of Mr. Armitage's involvement," Powell said.
>>>
>>>
>>> And so did Patrick Fitzgerald, Powell said. Fitzgerald was the special
>>> counsel brought in to find out if someone had maliciously exposed Ms.
>>> Wilson's undercover identity with the CIA, where she was known as
>>> Valerie Plame.
>>>
>>>
>>> "If everybody who had any contact with a reporter during that period,
>>> had done what Armitage had done, I think this would have ended early on
>>> and not dragged out the way it has dragged out," Powell said, adding
>>> that he knew early on that no crime had been committed in the incident.
>>> "Mr. Libby got in trouble for an entirely different set of reasons and
>>> circumstances."

>>
>> Correct. Libby lied, probably to cover up Cheney's involvement.

>
> Your opinion ... a man lost his reputation and job because of this fishing
> trip. Fitzgerald know from the beginning who the leaker was.


A man lost his reputation and job because he lied and obstructed justice.
Libby chose to lie, was caught, and paid the price. That is nobody's fault
but his own. He deserves nobody's pity.
 
"Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
news:fgqfib$jce$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
> news:fgqcfb$s1q$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>
>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>> news:fgq01p$anc$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:fgpttd$df0$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfgrey@infectedmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:472fee2a$0$17059$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:fgo50h$klt$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:spMXi.21666$u7.14445@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>>>>> Joe Irvin wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>>>> Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's the CIA
>>>>>>> afraid of that
>>>>>>> caused all the
>>>>>>> redaction in
>>>>>>> her book?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would guess, it was/is classified material. This doesn't mean she
>>>>>> was a 'covert agent.' One can be cleared to handle classified
>>>>>> material and not be a covert agent.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yet the CIA says she was a covert agent. So did the prosecutor.
>>>>> So did the judge.
>>>>
>>>> They can say anything they want, but no one was held responsible for
>>>> leaking Ms Plame's name.
>>>
>>> That is because the law required Fitzgerald to prove that leaker knew of
>>> her covert status. He was unable to do that.

>>
>> Fitzgerald knew who leaked her name before the trial began, so did the
>> FBI. Why didn't he put Amitage on the stand and find out? Its cost a man
>> his reputation and job. How irresponsible is that?

>
> It's not at all irresponsible. All Libby had to do was tell the truth.
> He chose not to do that. Libby's choice cost him his reputation and job,
> not Fitzgerald's attempt to determine if the leaking of a covert
> operative's name was a conspiracy.


It was irresponsible if Fitzgerald knew who the leaker was and went after
Libby.
"Libby's guilty verdict from the jury was understandable. But that's not the
same thing as saying that he was in fact guilty.

After all, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald failed to make his original
case, but didn't want to come up empty-handed. So he made a case instead
based on Libby's admittedly imperfect memories of what transpired. It was a
technical case, but it stuck.

Why did Fitzgerald push this case? Fitzgerald knew early on in his
investigation that it was Richard Armitage - and not Scooter Libby - who
revealed the identity of Valerie Plame, a known CIA operative who had not
been a covert agent for nearly a decade."

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=268354704071158&kw=scotter,libby

It seemed Mr Fitzgerald had his own agenda and was using Mr Libby as way to
accomplish this. If this is true, how ethical is that? I am in no way
excusing Mr Libby's lying. To know who the real leaker was and go after
someone to trap them in a lie, IMO is unethical. Mr Fitzgerald put his
agenda ahead of persuing the leaker.
>
>>
>>>>The Judge, the FBI and Fitzgerald all knew who the real leaker was,
>>>>Armitage of the State Dept.
>>>
>>> Karl Rove and Scooter Libby also leaked her name -- do try to keep up.
>>> All of this came out in the Libby trial.

>>
>> Yes it came out at the trial. Fitzgerald and the FBI knew before the
>> trial began who the leaker was. What was Fitzgeralds agenda?

>
> Fitzgerald attempted to determine if any of the leakers (Armitage, Rove,
> and Libby) knew of Plame's covert status and if a conspiracy existed.


Mr Fitzgerald already knew who the leaker was and that it was most likely
not a crime. He could have/should have/probably did know Ms Plame's status
before he every started the case. Mr Fitzgerald figured he had bigger fish
to fry and would use Liddy as a stepping stone.
>
> The trial was not about the leak -- it was about Libby's lies.


No it was about who leaked Ms Plame's name to the press, something that Mr
Fitzgerald already knew, along with the FBI. How did Mr Ftizgerald know
ahead of time that Libby would in fact purger himself? He didn't know that.
Tell me that?
>
>>
>>>>He has not been charged ... no one to my knowledge has been charged with
>>>>leaking Ms Plame's name. Even the judge has to go by the law ...
>>>>apparently it was not broken since no one has been charged with leaking.
>>>
>>> Fitzgerald could not prove, as required by the applicable law, that any
>>> of the leakers knew that she was a covert operative.

>>
>> How do you know Fitzgerald couldn't prove anything

>
> It's very simple -- nobody was charged.


He never tried Armitage to my knowledge ... Armitage would have probably
admitted it ... he told his boss that it was him that had leaked the name to
Novak.
>
>>... Armitage never was charged with leaking Ms Plame's name.

>
> Correct. Fitzgerald could not prove that he knew of Plame's covert
> status.


True, and that was what the trial was about.

>>Something else was going on ... I don't know what it was, but it was
>>something. Fitzgerald knew the leaker before the trial began.

>
> There were three leakers -- Rove, Libby, and Armitage. Had Fitzgerald
> been able to prove that any of them knew of Plame's covert status, that
> person would have been charged.


It makes no difference if there were 100 leakers, if its not a crime there
is no law broken. Trials cost money they are not for trying to find people
guilty of some other crime.

> Libby's trial was not about the leak -- it was about his lies.


Libby was found guilty of lying, in the trial that was about who leaked Ms
Plame's name. Parsing it doesn't change the reason of the trial.
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Why do you hate America?
>>>>
>>>> What makes you think I hate America?
>>>
>>> Anybody who continues to deny the truth about the criminals in the White
>>> House hates America.

>>
>> Until you can prove this was a crime, it your opinion only. Your opinion
>> is not law. The only thing I denied was that Ms Plame was a 'covert
>> agent' according to the law. No one was convicted of 'leaking' her name.

>
> A jury has already determined that Libby committed multiple felonies.
> Libby is a criminal.


Yes, I'm aware of that. Its also about the failure of Fitzgerald to get his
fish Rove. ... Fitzgerald's ego is soothed he caught Libby.
>
>
 
"Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:fgqm8i$66t$1@news04.infoave.net...
>
> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
> news:fgqfib$jce$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>> news:fgqcfb$s1q$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>
>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fgq01p$anc$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgpttd$df0$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfgrey@infectedmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:472fee2a$0$17059$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:fgo50h$klt$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:spMXi.21666$u7.14445@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>>>>>> Joe Irvin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's the CIA
>>>>>>>> afraid of that
>>>>>>>> caused all the
>>>>>>>> redaction in
>>>>>>>> her book?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would guess, it was/is classified material. This doesn't mean
>>>>>>> she was a 'covert agent.' One can be cleared to handle classified
>>>>>>> material and not be a covert agent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yet the CIA says she was a covert agent. So did the prosecutor.
>>>>>> So did the judge.
>>>>>
>>>>> They can say anything they want, but no one was held responsible for
>>>>> leaking Ms Plame's name.
>>>>
>>>> That is because the law required Fitzgerald to prove that leaker knew
>>>> of her covert status. He was unable to do that.
>>>
>>> Fitzgerald knew who leaked her name before the trial began, so did the
>>> FBI. Why didn't he put Amitage on the stand and find out? Its cost a
>>> man his reputation and job. How irresponsible is that?

>>
>> It's not at all irresponsible. All Libby had to do was tell the truth.
>> He chose not to do that. Libby's choice cost him his reputation and job,
>> not Fitzgerald's attempt to determine if the leaking of a covert
>> operative's name was a conspiracy.

>
> It was irresponsible if Fitzgerald knew who the leaker was and went after
> Libby.


Fitzgerald was attempting to determine if a conspiracy existed. He asked
some questions. Libby lied. All he had to to was tell the truth.

> "Libby's guilty verdict from the jury was understandable. But that's not
> the same thing as saying that he was in fact guilty.


Libby was guilty as hell. Four counts of lying and obstruction of justice.

>
> After all, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald failed to make his
> original case, but didn't want to come up empty-handed.


Bullshit.

>So he made a case instead based on Libby's admittedly imperfect memories of
>what transpired.


Imperfect memories? ROTFLMAO! Libby lied and then lied again to cover up
his first lies.

>It was a technical case, but it stuck.


Lying to a federal officer and obstruction of justice are felonies, not "a
technical case."

>
> Why did Fitzgerald push this case? Fitzgerald knew early on in his
> investigation that it was Richard Armitage - and not Scooter Libby - who
> revealed the identity of Valerie Plame, a known CIA operative who had not
> been a covert agent for nearly a decade."


Armitage, Libby, and Rove all leaked. Plame was a covert agent at the time
that the leaks occurred.

>
> http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=268354704071158&kw=scotter,libby


An editorial? That's what you use as facts? Pitiful you.

>
> It seemed Mr Fitzgerald had his own agenda and was using Mr Libby as way
> to accomplish this. If this is true, how ethical is that? I am in no way
> excusing Mr Libby's lying. To know who the real leaker was and go after
> someone to trap them in a lie, IMO is unethical. Mr Fitzgerald put his
> agenda ahead of persuing the leaker.


Fitzgerald was unable to pursue the conspiracy angle because Libby lied to
him.

>>
>>>
>>>>>The Judge, the FBI and Fitzgerald all knew who the real leaker was,
>>>>>Armitage of the State Dept.
>>>>
>>>> Karl Rove and Scooter Libby also leaked her name -- do try to keep up.
>>>> All of this came out in the Libby trial.
>>>
>>> Yes it came out at the trial. Fitzgerald and the FBI knew before the
>>> trial began who the leaker was. What was Fitzgeralds agenda?

>>
>> Fitzgerald attempted to determine if any of the leakers (Armitage, Rove,
>> and Libby) knew of Plame's covert status and if a conspiracy existed.

>
> Mr Fitzgerald already knew who the leaker was and that it was most likely
> not a crime.


Fitzgerald was attempting to determine if a conspiracy existed and Libby
lied to him.

>He could have/should have/probably did know Ms Plame's status before he
>every started the case.


He did. She was a covert operative heading up an operation that was
attempting to track down Middle Eastern operatives who were attempting to
secure nuclear weapons.


>Mr Fitzgerald figured he had bigger fish to fry and would use Liddy as a
>stepping stone.


Fitzgerald was attempting to determine if a conspiracy existed and Libby
lied to him.

>>
>> The trial was not about the leak -- it was about Libby's lies.

>
> No it was about who leaked Ms Plame's name to the press, something that Mr
> Fitzgerald already knew, along with the FBI. How did Mr Ftizgerald know
> ahead of time that Libby would in fact purger himself? He didn't know
> that. Tell me that?


No, the trial was about the 5 counts under which Libby was indicted.

>>
>>>
>>>>>He has not been charged ... no one to my knowledge has been charged
>>>>>with leaking Ms Plame's name. Even the judge has to go by the law ...
>>>>>apparently it was not broken since no one has been charged with
>>>>>leaking.
>>>>
>>>> Fitzgerald could not prove, as required by the applicable law, that any
>>>> of the leakers knew that she was a covert operative.
>>>
>>> How do you know Fitzgerald couldn't prove anything

>>
>> It's very simple -- nobody was charged.

>
> He never tried Armitage to my knowledge ... Armitage would have probably
> admitted it ... he told his boss that it was him that had leaked the name
> to Novak.


Correct. He only tried Libby on 5 counts of lying to a federal officer and
obstruction of justice.

>>
>>>... Armitage never was charged with leaking Ms Plame's name.

>>
>> Correct. Fitzgerald could not prove that he knew of Plame's covert
>> status.

>
> True, and that was what the trial was about.


No, the trial was about Libby's lying. Plame's covert status was a fact.

>
>>>Something else was going on ... I don't know what it was, but it was
>>>something. Fitzgerald knew the leaker before the trial began.

>>
>> There were three leakers -- Rove, Libby, and Armitage. Had Fitzgerald
>> been able to prove that any of them knew of Plame's covert status, that
>> person would have been charged.

>
> It makes no difference if there were 100 leakers, if its not a crime there
> is no law broken. Trials cost money they are not for trying to find
> people guilty of some other crime.
>
>> Libby's trial was not about the leak -- it was about his lies.

>
> Libby was found guilty of lying, in the trial that was about who leaked Ms
> Plame's name. Parsing it doesn't change the reason of the trial.


Libby's trial was not about the leak -- it was about his lies and his
obstruction of justice. There is no parsing there. The trial WAS NOT ABOUT
WHO LEAKED PLAME'S NAME. Before the trail started, the names of the leakers
were known. Damn, you are incredibly stupid.
 
"Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
news:fgqjn7$ssj$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
> news:fgqh55$10f$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>
>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>> news:fgqfsc$jrd$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:fgqcjp$s9o$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgpvsb$adn$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:fgo50h$klt$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:spMXi.21666$u7.14445@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>>>>> Joe Irvin wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>>>> Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's the CIA
>>>>>>> afraid of that
>>>>>>> caused all the
>>>>>>> redaction in
>>>>>>> her book?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would guess, it was/is classified material. This doesn't mean she
>>>>>> was a 'covert agent.' One can be cleared to handle classified
>>>>>> material and not be a covert agent.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Director of the CIA confirmed that she was covert.
>>>>
>>>> That was his opinion, it was not the law. The CIA Director doesn't get
>>>> to interpret the law, the courts do.
>>>
>>> Plame's covert status was established in the Libby trial and later
>>> confirmed by the Director of the CIA. The law states that the
>>> identities of classified U.S. intelligence officers are protected if
>>> they have "served within the last five years outside the United States."
>>> The Director of the CIA confirmed that Plame was a classified U.S.
>>> intelligence officer who had served within the five years prior to the
>>> revelation of her identity by Armitage, Rove, and Libby outside of the
>>> United States. So, it was not his opinion.

>>
>> Then explain why no one was covicted of leaking Ms Plame's name. Even
>> though Fitzgerald and the FBI knew from before the trial started who the
>> leaker was no one was convicted of leaking ...

>
> I have done this about 20 times so far. But, here it is again. The law
> requires that the leaker know the covert status of the CIA agent. How
> ****ing difficult is this to understand? Fitzgerald was not able to prove
> that any of the leakers (Rove, Libby, Armitage) knew that Plame was
> covert, only that they knew that she worked for the CIA. So, not being
> able to prove that any of them knew of her covert status, he was not able
> to charge anybody with violating the law.


So no law was broken, as was my contention from the beginning.
 
"Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
news:fgqomp$9bb$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
> news:fgqm8i$66t$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>
>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>> news:fgqfib$jce$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:fgqcfb$s1q$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgq01p$anc$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:fgpttd$df0$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfgrey@infectedmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:472fee2a$0$17059$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:fgo50h$klt$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:spMXi.21666$u7.14445@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>>>>>>> Joe Irvin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What's the CIA
>>>>>>>>> afraid of that
>>>>>>>>> caused all the
>>>>>>>>> redaction in
>>>>>>>>> her book?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would guess, it was/is classified material. This doesn't mean
>>>>>>>> she was a 'covert agent.' One can be cleared to handle classified
>>>>>>>> material and not be a covert agent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet the CIA says she was a covert agent. So did the prosecutor.
>>>>>>> So did the judge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They can say anything they want, but no one was held responsible for
>>>>>> leaking Ms Plame's name.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is because the law required Fitzgerald to prove that leaker knew
>>>>> of her covert status. He was unable to do that.
>>>>
>>>> Fitzgerald knew who leaked her name before the trial began, so did the
>>>> FBI. Why didn't he put Amitage on the stand and find out? Its cost a
>>>> man his reputation and job. How irresponsible is that?
>>>
>>> It's not at all irresponsible. All Libby had to do was tell the truth.
>>> He chose not to do that. Libby's choice cost him his reputation and
>>> job, not Fitzgerald's attempt to determine if the leaking of a covert
>>> operative's name was a conspiracy.

>>
>> It was irresponsible if Fitzgerald knew who the leaker was and went after
>> Libby.

>
> Fitzgerald was attempting to determine if a conspiracy existed. He asked
> some questions. Libby lied. All he had to to was tell the truth.
>
>> "Libby's guilty verdict from the jury was understandable. But that's not
>> the same thing as saying that he was in fact guilty.

>
> Libby was guilty as hell. Four counts of lying and obstruction of
> justice.


Which I've never denied, but agreed with.

>> After all, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald failed to make his
>> original case, but didn't want to come up empty-handed.

>
> Bullshit.


If you think he made his case, who did he convict of knowingly revealing the
identy of a covert agent? ... its that simple. He got a conviction against
Libby which I've have admitted.

>>So he made a case instead based on Libby's admittedly imperfect memories
>>of what transpired.

>
> Imperfect memories? ROTFLMAO! Libby lied and then lied again to cover
> up his first lies.


Both of the above are opinions only and cannot be proven. The only thing
proven was that Libby lied and not that someone knowingly leaked Ms Plame's
name.

>>It was a technical case, but it stuck.

>
> Lying to a federal officer and obstruction of justice are felonies, not "a
> technical case."


True. And I've agreed that Libby lied.

>> Why did Fitzgerald push this case? Fitzgerald knew early on in his
>> investigation that it was Richard Armitage - and not Scooter Libby - who
>> revealed the identity of Valerie Plame, a known CIA operative who had not
>> been a covert agent for nearly a decade."

>
> Armitage, Libby, and Rove all leaked. Plame was a covert agent at the
> time that the leaks occurred.


She was not covert. If she was someone would have been held accountable ...
>
>> http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=268354704071158&kw=scotter,libby

>
> An editorial? That's what you use as facts? Pitiful you.


You are welcomed to list the people found guilty of leaking a covert agents
name. Ms Plame was not covert under the Intell Ident Prot law. I've
admitted time after time Libby was guilty of lying. You haven't proven your
claim that Ms Plame was 'covert' under the IIP act.

>> It seemed Mr Fitzgerald had his own agenda and was using Mr Libby as way
>> to accomplish this. If this is true, how ethical is that? I am in no
>> way excusing Mr Libby's lying. To know who the real leaker was and go
>> after someone to trap them in a lie, IMO is unethical. Mr Fitzgerald put
>> his agenda ahead of persuing the leaker.

>
> Fitzgerald was unable to pursue the conspiracy angle because Libby lied to
> him.


Armitage didn't lie, and he and the FBI knew that it was him who was the
original leaker. He had an open and shut case with Armitage. Your excuse
doesn't cut it.

>>>>>>The Judge, the FBI and Fitzgerald all knew who the real leaker was,
>>>>>>Armitage of the State Dept.
>>>>>
>>>>> Karl Rove and Scooter Libby also leaked her name -- do try to keep up.
>>>>> All of this came out in the Libby trial.
>>>>
>>>> Yes it came out at the trial. Fitzgerald and the FBI knew before the
>>>> trial began who the leaker was. What was Fitzgeralds agenda?
>>>
>>> Fitzgerald attempted to determine if any of the leakers (Armitage, Rove,
>>> and Libby) knew of Plame's covert status and if a conspiracy existed.

>>
>> Mr Fitzgerald already knew who the leaker was and that it was most likely
>> not a crime.

>
> Fitzgerald was attempting to determine if a conspiracy existed and Libby
> lied to him.


So you think everything relied on Libby ... that is wishful thinking ... you
can parse things anyway you want, but apparently no law was broken except
the purgery/obstruction of justice of Libby, which I'ves agreed. I've
already agreeed many times that Libby was found guilty. Mr Fitzgerald was
looking for the one who leaked a 'covert agents' identity ... breaking the
IIP Act. He failed in that regard as I'ves said many time.
>
>>He could have/should have/probably did know Ms Plame's status before he
>>every started the case.

>
> He did. She was a covert operative heading up an operation that was
> attempting to track down Middle Eastern operatives who were attempting to
> secure nuclear weapons.


The operative word is "was" a covert operative.
As we have documented extensively, Plame was not a covert CIA operative but
a desk jockey at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va. Her name was certainly no
secret, appearing in Wilson's "Who's Who In America" entry. She was there
for a length of time that disqualified her from protection under the 1982
Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place? Well,
according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz, U.S. officials said
Plame's identity was first disclosed to Russia by a Moscow spy in the
mid-1990s. The Cubans learned her identity when they read supposedly sealed
documents sent by the CIA to the U.S. Interests Section at the Swiss Embassy
in Havana.

Her value as a "covert" asset vanished long ago. One of the reasons Plame
was working as a desk analyst in Langley, having been brought back to the
states in 1994, was that the CIA suspected her identity had been compromised
by turncoat spy Aldrich Ames.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=278203358749907&kw=plame

There were many reasons she wasn't covert at the time she was exposed by
Armitage.
>
>
>>Mr Fitzgerald figured he had bigger fish to fry and would use Liddy as a
>>stepping stone.

>
> Fitzgerald was attempting to determine if a conspiracy existed and Libby
> lied to him.


This may well be true, but what caused there to be an investigation was
outing a supposedly 'covert agent' Ms Plame. She wasn't apparently or
someone would have been tried for exposing her.
>
>>>
>>> The trial was not about the leak -- it was about Libby's lies.

>>
>> No it was about who leaked Ms Plame's name to the press, something that
>> Mr Fitzgerald already knew, along with the FBI. How did Mr Ftizgerald
>> know ahead of time that Libby would in fact purger himself? He didn't
>> know that. Tell me that?

>
> No, the trial was about the 5 counts under which Libby was indicted.


So I'm just imagining that Ms Plame had anything at all to do with this
investigation ... it was all about Libby???? .... What if any role did Ms
Plame have in the investigation?
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>He has not been charged ... no one to my knowledge has been charged
>>>>>>with leaking Ms Plame's name. Even the judge has to go by the law ...
>>>>>>apparently it was not broken since no one has been charged with
>>>>>>leaking.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fitzgerald could not prove, as required by the applicable law, that
>>>>> any of the leakers knew that she was a covert operative.
>>>>
>>>> How do you know Fitzgerald couldn't prove anything
>>>
>>> It's very simple -- nobody was charged.

>>
>> He never tried Armitage to my knowledge ... Armitage would have probably
>> admitted it ... he told his boss that it was him that had leaked the name
>> to Novak.

>
> Correct. He only tried Libby on 5 counts of lying to a federal officer
> and obstruction of justice.


Why not exposing a 'covert agent'. You say above that Ms Plame was a covert
agent. She wasn't and no one was held accountable for exposing her as such.
>
>>>
>>>>... Armitage never was charged with leaking Ms Plame's name.
>>>
>>> Correct. Fitzgerald could not prove that he knew of Plame's covert
>>> status.

>>
>> True, and that was what the trial was about.

>
> No, the trial was about Libby's lying. Plame's covert status was a fact.


No it wasn't a fact. I've given you cites that proved she wasn't ... even
the CIA didn't know if her name had been compromised by the mole, Aldrich
Ames.

>>>>Something else was going on ... I don't know what it was, but it was
>>>>something. Fitzgerald knew the leaker before the trial began.
>>>
>>> There were three leakers -- Rove, Libby, and Armitage. Had Fitzgerald
>>> been able to prove that any of them knew of Plame's covert status, that
>>> person would have been charged.

>>
>> It makes no difference if there were 100 leakers, if its not a crime
>> there is no law broken. Trials cost money they are not for trying to
>> find people guilty of some other crime.
>>
>>> Libby's trial was not about the leak -- it was about his lies.

>>
>> Libs found guilty of lying, in the trial that was about who leaked Ms
>> Plame's name. by wa Parsing it doesn't change the reason of the trial.

>
> Libby's trial was not about the leak -- it was about his lies and his
> obstruction of justice. There is no parsing there. The trial WAS NOT
> ABOUT WHO LEAKED PLAME'S NAME. Before the trail started, the names of the
> leakers were known. Damn, you are incredibly stupid.


Didn't you read what I wrote? I agreed that Libby lied and that is what he
was covicted for. I've admitted it several time. You cannot seem to
understand that Ms Plame wasn't covert. Ms Plame was the whole reason for
the grand jury. If like Sec of State Powell said: "The FBI knew on day
one of Mr Armitage's involvement," And so did P Fitzgerald. .... If
everybody who had any contact witha reporter during that period, had done
what armitage had done, I think this would have ended early on and not
dragged out the way it has dragged out, Powell said, adding that he knew
early on that NO CRIME had been committed in the incident. Mr. Libby go
into trouble for an entirely different set of reaslons and circumstances."
Powell was in a position to know, so was Fitzgerald.
>
>
 
"Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
news:fgqkd3$uej$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
> news:fgqhh3$1e8$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>
>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>> news:fgqg1b$k9r$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:fgqd52$sn5$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgq3j6$jo7$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:fgpuhn$e8m$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfgrey@infectedmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:472fedd0$0$17059$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:fgo3lo$jav$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>>>according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, according to the CIA, she was. But I guess traitors like
>>>>>>> yourself just don't care about treason.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The CIA doesn't get to determine what the law is, the courts do.
>>>>>> They have to follow the law just like everyone else. No one was
>>>>>> found to have leaked Ms Plame's name, so what the CIA says really has
>>>>>> no meaning, its just their opinion. To recognize this makes me
>>>>>> treasonous???
>>>>>
>>>>> Armitage, Rove, and Libby all were found to have leaked Plame's name.
>>>>> Armitage leaked it to Novak, Rove leaked it to Cooper, and Libby
>>>>> leaked it to Miller. All of this came out in Libby's trial. Did you
>>>>> miss it?
>>>>
>>>> Didn't miss anything, I don't think. Which one of them were convicted
>>>> of leaking Ms Plame's name, the reason for the trial?
>>>
>>> You missed a great deal. The reason for the trial was Libby's lies to a
>>> federal officer and obstruction of justice.

>>
>> No, you are wrong. It was to find out who the leaker was. The trial was
>> not about Liddy, it was about finding the leaker. ... There wouldn't
>> even been a trial for Libby ... no one knew he lied until the trial.

>
> No, you are wrong. You are pitifully wrong. A criminal trial requires an
> indictment of one or more people. A criminal trial is not an
> investigation. The trial was not "about finding the leaker."
>
> www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/28/leak.probe/
>
> "Libby resigned Friday after a federal grand jury indicted him on five
> charges related to the leak probe: one count of obstruction of justice,
> two counts of perjury and two counts of making false statements."
>
> Libby was subsequently tried and found guilty on four of the five counts.
>
> tinyurl.com/2f2auu
>
>
> New York Times
>
> March 7, 2007
>
> Libby Guilty of Lying in C.I.A. Leak Case
> By NEIL A. LEWIS
> Correction Appended
>
> WASHINGTON, March 6 - I. Lewis Libby Jr., the former chief of staff to
> Vice President Dick Cheney, was convicted on Tuesday of lying to a grand
> jury and to F.B.I. agents investigating the leak of the identity of a
> C.I.A. operative in the summer of 2003 amid a fierce public dispute over
> the war in Iraq.
>
> Mr. Libby, 56, who once wielded great authority at the top levels of
> government, is the highest-ranking White House official to be convicted of
> a felony since the Iran-contra scandals of the 1980s.
>
> The jury rejected Mr. Libby's claims of memory lapses, convicting him of
> four felony counts, obstruction of justice, giving false statements to the
> Federal Bureau of Investigation and committing perjury twice before the
> grand jury. The 11-member jury acquitted Mr. Libby on an additional count
> of making false statements to the F.B.I.
>
> As the verdict was read aloud by the jury forewoman after nearly 10 days
> of deliberations, Mr. Libby grimaced briefly before resuming his
> expressionless demeanor. His wife, Harriet Grant, sitting a few feet away
> in the spectator section, began shaking visibly and wept briefly before
> composing herself.
>
> Dana Perino, the deputy White House press secretary, said President Bush
> watched the news of the verdict on television in the Oval Office. She said
> Mr. Bush respected the jury's verdict but "was saddened for Scooter Libby
> and his family," using Mr. Libby's nickname.
>
> Mr. Cheney had a similar reaction. "As I have said before, Scooter has
> served our nation tirelessly and with great distinction through many years
> of public service," he said.
>
> The verdict meant the end of a nearly four-year investigation into the
> leak of the identity of the Central Intelligence Agency officer, Valerie
> Wilson. The inquiry raised fundamental questions about the reasons for
> invading Iraq, exposed some of the unseen influence of Mr. Cheney's office
> and changed the landscape of relations between journalists and official
> sources, as many of Washington's prominent political reporters were forced
> to testify in a criminal trial.
>
> Mr. Libby's chief lawyer, Theodore V. Wells Jr., said he would file papers
> asking the judge to grant a new trial. If that fails, Mr. Wells told
> reporters, he will appeal the verdict to the federal appeals court. He
> said Mr. Libby was "totally innocent and that he did not do anything
> wrong."
>
> Mr. Libby, standing at his side, made no comment. Prosecutors had charged
> that Mr. Libby had lied when he swore that he had not discussed the
> identity of Ms. Wilson in the summer of 2003 with two reporters, Judith
> Miller, formerly of The New York Times, and Matthew Cooper, formerly of
> Time magazine.
>
> The prosecution also said Mr. Libby concocted a story that he learned of
> Ms. Wilson's identity in a conversation with Tim Russert of NBC News on
> July 10 or 11 in 2003 to hide the fact that he had already learned about
> her identity from several fellow administration officials.
>
> One of the 11 jurors who spoke publicly after the verdict said that there
> was great sympathy for Mr. Libby in the jury room, but that the case
> presented by the prosecution was overwhelming.
>
> Judge Reggie B. Walton, who presided over the four weeks of testimony and
> presentation of evidence, set sentencing for June 5. Under complicated
> sentencing guidelines that are no longer mandatory, Judge Walton has wide
> discretion in setting a prison term.
>
> But lawyers not involved in the case who are experienced in the issue of
> sentencing calculated that under the guidelines, Mr. Libby might be
> sentenced to 20 to 27 months.
>
> Judge Walton allowed Mr. Libby to remain free on bail. The defense's plans
> to ask for a retrial and then appeal the verdict mean that it would be
> many months before Mr. Libby would be required to go to prison. It also
> would provide a window for Mr. Bush to pardon Mr. Libby, an issue about
> which the White House has been silent but one that quickly became a topic
> of speculation.
>
> Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic leader, issued a statement
> calling on Mr. Bush to promise that he would not "pardon Libby for his
> criminal conduct."
>
> Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the prosecutor, said that while gratified by the
> verdict, "it's sad that we had a situation where a high-level official, a
> person who worked in the Office of Vice President, obstructed justice and
> lied under oath."
>
> In remarks to reporters outside the courthouse, Mr. Fitzgerald also
> addressed at length the criticism of his decision to prosecute Mr. Libby
> on charges of lying to investigators while not charging anybody with
> leaking Ms. Wilson's name to reporters.
>
> Ms. Wilson's name first appeared in a column by Robert Novak on July 14,
> 2003, just days after The New York Times published an Op-Ed article by her
> husband, Joseph C. Wilson IV.
>
> In his article, Mr. Wilson asserted that the Bush White House had
> willfully distorted intelligence about Iraq's efforts to acquire uranium
> in Africa to bolster the case for going to war.
>
> Testimony at the trial showed that Mr. Wilson's criticisms had alarmed and
> angered Bush administration officials because they amounted to a direct
> attack on what had been the principal reason for invading Iraq: the claim
> that Saddam Hussein had an active program of developing unconventional
> weapons.
>
> Critics said Ms. Wilson's identity as a C.I.A. officer was leaked to
> punish her husband for his criticisms.
>
> At the time Mr. Fitzgerald was named special prosecutor in the leak
> inquiry, investigators had already learned that Mr. Novak's sources were
> Richard L. Armitage, the deputy secretary of state, and Karl Rove, the
> president's chief political adviser.
>
> In remarks to reporters on Tuesday, Mr. Fitzgerald said he nonetheless had
> no choice but to seek an indictment when he took over the investigation in
> December 2003, because he also had information that Mr. Libby had told a
> false story to the F.B.I. and to the grand jury about his conversation
> with Mr. Russert.
>
> "It's inconceivable that any responsible prosecutor would walk away from
> the facts that we saw in December 2003 and say, 'There's nothing here,
> move on, " Mr. Fitzgerald said.
>
> "We cannot tolerate perjury," he said. "The truth is what drives our
> judicial system. If people don't come forward and tell the truth, we have
> no hope of making the judicial system work."
>
> Mr. Fitzgerald also faced criticism for forcing several reporters to
> testify about their confidential conversations with officials by
> threatening to have them jailed for contempt.
>
> In the case of Ms. Miller, then of The Times, he had her jailed for 85
> days until she agreed to testify before the grand jury.
>
> Previous leak investigations had ended in failure after reporters refused
> to cooperate with officials, saying they needed to protect sources to do
> their work.
>
> But Mr. Fitzgerald's tactics, with the support of the courts, changed the
> landscape of reporter-source relations in the capital and elsewhere.
>
> "You could not bring this case without talking to reporters," Mr.
> Fitzgerald said. He said any prosecutors should regard the act of forcing
> reporters to discuss their conversations with sources as "a last resort in
> unusual circumstances."
>
> This case fit that description he said because the reporters were
> witnesses to Mr. Libby's crimes, and "we do not think that what Mr. Libby
> was telling reporters was whistle-blowing."
>
> Mr. Wilson, who has frequently expressed outrage over the leak of the
> identity of his wife, who is also known as Valerie Plame, said Tuesday
> that he thought the news media had behaved badly in the whole episode.
>
> "I think one of the subplots in this whole trial was how the press was
> used and abused by this administration," Mr. Wilson said in a conference
> call with reporters.
>
> He said reporters had been used to deceive people about the reasons for
> going to war and then to harm his wife's career by blowing her cover.
>
> The convictions were based on Mr. Libby's statements to the grand jury
> about his conversations with Mr. Russert and Mr. Cooper, as well as Mr.
> Libby's statements to the F.B.I. about Mr. Russert.
>
> The jury acquitted Mr. Libby on one count charging him with making a false
> statement to the bureau about his conversation with Mr. Cooper.
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Libby if I remember correctly was convicted of purgery/obstruction of
>>>> justice. ... no one was charged with leaking Ms Plame's name.
>>>
>>> That is correct. That does not change the fact that Armitage, Rove, and
>>> Libby all were found to have leaked Plame's name to the media. The fact
>>> that they were not prosecuted was Fitzgerald's inability to prove, as
>>> required by the law, that they knew of her covert status.

>>
>> The above may have leaked Ms Plame's name but it was not illegal to do so
>> or they would have been charged. If I remember correctly the original
>> leaker, Armitage wasn't even charged with leaking, so we don't know what
>> Fitzgerald could/couldn't do. None of the above were found guilty of
>> leaking Ms Plame's name ... True?

>
> Yes, we do know what Fitzgerald could not do. He could not prove that
> Armitage, Rove, or Libby knew of Plame's covert status prior to leaking
> her name to the media. Had he been able to do so, one or more of them
> would have been charged.
>
> I am astonished that, given all of the coverage this story received, you
> know so little about it. Apparently, you rely on people like Limbaugh and
> Hannity for your news.


What you've tried to do is imply these three men leaked a 'covert agents'
name, endangering national security. Ms Plame wasn't covert as defined by
the IIP act. If this is/was true there is no reason for a trial which Mr
Libby was found guilty of lying/obstruction of justice. I've agreed many
time that Libby was guilty of lying. No need respond ... I'm not going to
convience you ... you will believe Ms Plame is/was covert ... no need to
respond.
 
"Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
news:fgql38$vvr$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
> news:fgqija$2if$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>
>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>> news:fgqgd1$l8u$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>
>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:fgqe7d$tq3$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgpvrf$adc$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:fgo3lo$jav$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>
>>>>> Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald concluded that she was. The Director of
>>>>> the CIA confirmed that she was. After all of the information that has
>>>>> been made available concerning her covert status, only a complete
>>>>> moron would continue to deny it.
>>>>
>>>> It was Fitzgeralds' and the CIA's Director opinion. Fitzgerald had to
>>>> prove it. ... that was the problem. He didn't prove it. All he did
>>>> was find Libby guilty of purgery and obstruction of justice. He know
>>>> who the leaker was before the trial. He didn't prove it .... until he
>>>> proves it, it remains his opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3?language=printer
>>>>>
>>>>> Leak of Agent's Name Causes Exposure of CIA Front Firm
>>>>>
>>>>> By Walter Pincus and Mike Allen
>>>>> Washington Post Staff Writers
>>>>> Saturday, October 4, 2003; Page A03
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The leak of a CIA operative's name has also exposed the identity of a
>>>>> CIA front company, potentially expanding the damage caused by the
>>>>> original disclosure, Bush administration officials said yesterday.
>>>>>
>>>>> The company's identity, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, became public
>>>>> because it appeared in Federal Election Commission records on a form
>>>>> filled out in 1999 by Valerie Plame, the case officer at the center of
>>>>> the controversy, when she contributed $1,000 to Al Gore's presidential
>>>>> primary campaign.
>>>>>
>>>>> After the name of the company was broadcast yesterday, administration
>>>>> officials confirmed that it was a CIA front. They said the obscure and
>>>>> possibly defunct firm was listed as Plame's employer on her W-2 tax
>>>>> forms in 1999 when she was working undercover for the CIA. Plame's
>>>>> name was first published July 14 in a newspaper column by Robert D.
>>>>> Novak that quoted two senior administration officials. They were
>>>>> critical of her husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, for
>>>>> his handling of a CIA mission that undercut President Bush's claim
>>>>> that Iraq had sought uranium from the African nation of Niger for
>>>>> possible use in developing nuclear weapons.
>>>>
>>>> All opinions bro ... you have to prove who the leaker was and that he
>>>> broke the law. It wasn't done.
>>>
>>>
>>> We know who the leakers were -- Armitage, Rove, and Libby. They were
>>> not charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her covert
>>> status as required by the law.

>>
>> Then you agree with me, that the leaking of Ms Plame's name was in some
>> way illegal. If it had been illegal someone would have been charged and
>> found guilty ... no law was broken, except for Libby's
>> purgery/obstruction of justice.

>
> I agree that Fitzgerald was unable to prove that any of the leakers knew
> of Plame's covert status prior to leaking her name and was therefore
> unable to prove that the law covering the outing of covert operatives had
> been broken.


But she wasn't covert according to the IIP Act. Sec of State Powell also
agreed that since there was no crime, there should be no trial. Victoria
Toensig who helped write the law says Ms Plame was not a covert agent. Many
covert agents in teh CIA were outed by the mole Aldrich Ames. So if Ms
Plame was not covert there should be no trial.

>>>>> The Justice Department began a formal criminal investigation of the
>>>>> leak Sept. 26.
>>>>
>>>> As a result of that investigation no one was charged with leaking Ms
>>>> Plame's name. Libby was found to have purgered himself and obstructed
>>>> justice.
>>>
>>> The fact that nobody was charged with the leak does not change the fact
>>> that Libby, Rove, and Armitage all leaked her name to the media. They
>>> were not charged because there was no evidence that they knew of her
>>> covert status as required by the law.

>>
>> They broke no law, so what difference does it make that they leaked Ms
>> Plame's name.

>
> It makes a great deal of difference because in the reckless leaking of her
> name, they shut down a vital intelligence operation dealing with attempts
> by Middle Eastern operatives to acquire nuclear weapons.


It was never proven that her name was recklessly leaked ... it hasn't been
proven that at the time of her outing that she was covert ...
>
>>If I make a withdrawal form my account and someone charges me with bank
>>robbery and I'm not found guilty of bankrobbery, doesn't mean just because
>>I took money from my bank account that I robbed the bank.

>
> Your analogy is not at all similar to the Plame case.
>
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The inadvertent disclosure of the name of a business affiliated with
>>>>> the CIA underscores the potential damage to the agency and its
>>>>> operatives caused by the leak of Plame's identity. Intelligence
>>>>> officials have said that once Plame's job as an undercover operative
>>>>> was revealed, other agency secrets could be unraveled and her sources
>>>>> might be compromised or endangered.
>>>>>
>>>>> A former diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity said yesterday
>>>>> that every foreign intelligence service would run Plame's name through
>>>>> its databases within hours of its publication to determine if she had
>>>>> visited their country and to reconstruct her activities.
>>>>>
>>>>> "That's why the agency is so sensitive about just publishing her
>>>>> name," the former diplomat said.
>>>>>
>>>>> FEC rules require donors to list their employment. Plame used her
>>>>> married name, Valerie E. Wilson, and listed her employment as an
>>>>> "analyst" with Brewster-Jennings & Associates. The document
>>>>> establishes that Plame has worked undercover within the past five
>>>>> years. The time frame is one of the standards used in making
>>>>> determinations about whether a disclosure is a criminal violation of
>>>>> the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.
>>>>
>>>> Was anyone found guilty of breaking the Intell Indent Protection Act?
>>>
>>> Nope. The fact that nobody was charged with the leak does not change
>>> the fact that Libby, Rove, and Armitage all leaked her name to the
>>> media. They were not charged because there was no evidence that they
>>> knew of her covert status as required by the law.

>>
>> Then you are trying to make an issue out of something that is not an
>> issue. No one was found guilty of leaking Ms Pflames name. Its your
>> opinion that they are guilty of anything. Legally they are not.

>
> I have never said that they were guilty of anything. My original point
> was that Plame was a covert operative and that their leak of her name
> compromised an ongoing intelligence operation attempting to locate Middle
> Eastern operatives attempting to acquire nuclear weapons.


You have not cited where she was a covert operative under the IIPA. I have
cited where Ms Plame wasn't covert.

>>>>> It could not be learned yesterday whether other CIA operatives were
>>>>> associated with Brewster-Jennings.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also yesterday, the nearly 2,000 employees of the White House were
>>>>> given a Tuesday deadline to scour their files and computers for any
>>>>> records related to Wilson or contacts with journalists about Wilson.
>>>>> The broad order, in an e-mail from White House counsel Alberto R.
>>>>> Gonzales, directed them to retain records "that relate in any way to
>>>>> former U.S. Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, his trip to Niger in February
>>>>> 2002, or his wife's purported relationship with the Central
>>>>> Intelligence Agency."
>>>>
>>>> Fitzgerald knew before the trial started who the real leaker was ... R
>>>> Armitage of the State Dept.
>>>
>>> The real leakers were Armitage (to Novak), Rove (to Cooper), and Libby
>>> (to Miller). This was revealed during Libby's trial.

>>
>> So what ... if it was illegal they would have all been convicted of
>> leaking a covert agents name under the Intell Ident law. ... they were
>> not. It doesn't make any difference the reason, no one was convicted of
>> leaking Ms Plame's name.

>
> Their recklessness caused the identity of a covert agent to be revealed
> and resulted in a vital intelligence operation having to be shut down. If
> you don't think that this was a serious matter, then you are quite
> mistaken.


I've cited where she was not covert according to the IIPA ... what had to be
'shut down?' It was well known around Washington that she wasn't covert.

>>>> From Aspen we get this report of a talk by Karl Rove and a comment from
>>>> the audience by former Secretary of State Powell:
>>>>
>>>> Former Secretary of State Colin Powell stood up in the audience during
>>>> the question-and-answer period to say that it was his deputy secretary
>>>> of state, Richard Armitage, who sparked the CIA leak case. Powell said
>>>> that Armitage responded to a question by Novak about Wilson, saying "I
>>>> think she works for the CIA..."
>>>
>>> That was one of the leaks. The others came from Libby and Rove.

>>
>> And none were covicted of leaking a covert agents name, no matter what
>> reasons you may give.

>
> I have never said that they were convicted. I have only stated that Plame
> was a covert operative and that her name was leaked.


Well you have to have some proof that she was covert. The CIA Director, the
judge, and Fitzgerald all say she was covert. That is their opinion only.
If they all though she was covert according to the IIPA why was no one
charged? ... as we both have said they knew who the leakers were?
Libby was charged and convicted of leaking her name. Would you agree if
Plame wasn't covert that Libby shouldn't have been tried?

>>>> Powell said that Armitage later called him and told him he had been
>>>> the one who had talked to Novak about Wilson. Powell and Armitage then
>>>> met with the FBI on the matter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The FBI knew on day one of Mr. Armitage's involvement," Powell said.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And so did Patrick Fitzgerald, Powell said. Fitzgerald was the special
>>>> counsel brought in to find out if someone had maliciously exposed Ms.
>>>> Wilson's undercover identity with the CIA, where she was known as
>>>> Valerie Plame.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "If everybody who had any contact with a reporter during that period,
>>>> had done what Armitage had done, I think this would have ended early on
>>>> and not dragged out the way it has dragged out," Powell said, adding
>>>> that he knew early on that no crime had been committed in the incident.
>>>> "Mr. Libby got in trouble for an entirely different set of reasons and
>>>> circumstances."
>>>
>>> Correct. Libby lied, probably to cover up Cheney's involvement.

>>
>> Your opinion ... a man lost his reputation and job because of this
>> fishing trip. Fitzgerald know from the beginning who the leaker was.

>
> A man lost his reputation and job because he lied and obstructed justice.


I realize that. My argument is that if the original reason for the grand
jury was the leaking of a covert agents name which is a crime. If Ms Plame
was no covert agent there is not a
crime would you agree.

> Libby chose to lie, was caught, and paid the price. That is nobody's
> fault but his own. He deserves nobody's pity.


Even if the original charge (leaking a covert agents name) is bogus? If
that is bogus there is no reason for a Libby trial. I'm not trying to
excuse Libby, what he did was a crime.


We just disagree ... there is no need to respond.



>
>
 
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 18:32:29 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
<ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:

>You are welcomed to list the people found guilty of leaking a covert agents
>name. Ms Plame was not covert under the Intell Ident Prot law. I've
>admitted time after time Libby was guilty of lying. You haven't proven your
>claim that Ms Plame was 'covert' under the IIP act.


While it is true that at the particular moment---Plame
was not "in field"

By your "reasoning" then, any CIA agent, not actively
engaged in an operation could be "outed" without
breaking the letter of the law----making it possible
the EVERY agent the CIA uses, or used, could be
discovered.

Now, don't you think that kind of reasoning is rather
disengenuous?
 
"Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:fgqp0d$907$1@news04.infoave.net...
>
> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
> news:fgqjn7$ssj$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>> news:fgqh55$10f$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>
>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fgqfsc$jrd$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgqcjp$s9o$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:fgpvsb$adn$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:fgo50h$klt$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:spMXi.21666$u7.14445@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>>>>>> Joe Irvin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's the CIA
>>>>>>>> afraid of that
>>>>>>>> caused all the
>>>>>>>> redaction in
>>>>>>>> her book?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would guess, it was/is classified material. This doesn't mean
>>>>>>> she was a 'covert agent.' One can be cleared to handle classified
>>>>>>> material and not be a covert agent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Director of the CIA confirmed that she was covert.
>>>>>
>>>>> That was his opinion, it was not the law. The CIA Director doesn't
>>>>> get to interpret the law, the courts do.
>>>>
>>>> Plame's covert status was established in the Libby trial and later
>>>> confirmed by the Director of the CIA. The law states that the
>>>> identities of classified U.S. intelligence officers are protected if
>>>> they have "served within the last five years outside the United
>>>> States." The Director of the CIA confirmed that Plame was a classified
>>>> U.S. intelligence officer who had served within the five years prior to
>>>> the revelation of her identity by Armitage, Rove, and Libby outside of
>>>> the United States. So, it was not his opinion.
>>>
>>> Then explain why no one was covicted of leaking Ms Plame's name. Even
>>> though Fitzgerald and the FBI knew from before the trial started who the
>>> leaker was no one was convicted of leaking ...

>>
>> I have done this about 20 times so far. But, here it is again. The law
>> requires that the leaker know the covert status of the CIA agent. How
>> ****ing difficult is this to understand? Fitzgerald was not able to
>> prove that any of the leakers (Rove, Libby, Armitage) knew that Plame was
>> covert, only that they knew that she worked for the CIA. So, not being
>> able to prove that any of them knew of her covert status, he was not able
>> to charge anybody with violating the law.

>
> So no law was broken, as was my contention from the beginning.


No, your contention was that Plame was not a covert operative. Yes, several
laws were broken. Libby lied to federal officers and obstructed justice in
his attempt to cover up Cheney's involvement and was subsequently convicted
of 4 felonies. Bush, of course, commuted his sentence and will issue a
pardon on his way out of the White House.
 
"Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:fgqtif$dho$1@news04.infoave.net...
>
> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
> news:fgqomp$9bb$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>> news:fgqm8i$66t$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>
>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fgqfib$jce$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:fgqcfb$s1q$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Lamont Cranston" <Lamont.Cranston@EvilFigher.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:fgq01p$anc$1@news.albasani.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:fgpttd$df0$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Gandalf Grey" <gandalfgrey@infectedmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:472fee2a$0$17059$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Joe Irvin" <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:fgo50h$klt$1@news04.infoave.net...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:spMXi.21666$u7.14445@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>>>>>>>> Joe Irvin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> <Click@Knicklas.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:9h3vi3hgvl4lh09ahcar8r5pls503ed2qd@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:59:11 -0500, "Joe Irvin"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <ji3486@sccoast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first
>>>>>>>>>>>>> place?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> MOONIE TIMES??
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> V Plame, covert agent, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What's the CIA
>>>>>>>>>> afraid of that
>>>>>>>>>> caused all the
>>>>>>>>>> redaction in
>>>>>>>>>> her book?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would guess, it was/is classified material. This doesn't mean
>>>>>>>>> she was a 'covert agent.' One can be cleared to handle classified
>>>>>>>>> material and not be a covert agent.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yet the CIA says she was a covert agent. So did the
>>>>>>>> prosecutor. So did the judge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They can say anything they want, but no one was held responsible for
>>>>>>> leaking Ms Plame's name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is because the law required Fitzgerald to prove that leaker knew
>>>>>> of her covert status. He was unable to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fitzgerald knew who leaked her name before the trial began, so did the
>>>>> FBI. Why didn't he put Amitage on the stand and find out? Its cost a
>>>>> man his reputation and job. How irresponsible is that?
>>>>
>>>> It's not at all irresponsible. All Libby had to do was tell the truth.
>>>> He chose not to do that. Libby's choice cost him his reputation and
>>>> job, not Fitzgerald's attempt to determine if the leaking of a covert
>>>> operative's name was a conspiracy.
>>>
>>> It was irresponsible if Fitzgerald knew who the leaker was and went
>>> after Libby.

>>
>> Fitzgerald was attempting to determine if a conspiracy existed. He asked
>> some questions. Libby lied. All he had to to was tell the truth.
>>
>>> "Libby's guilty verdict from the jury was understandable. But that's not
>>> the same thing as saying that he was in fact guilty.

>>
>> Libby was guilty as hell. Four counts of lying and obstruction of
>> justice.

>
> Which I've never denied, but agreed with.
>
>>> After all, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald failed to make his
>>> original case, but didn't want to come up empty-handed.

>>
>> Bullshit.

>
> If you think he made his case, who did he convict of knowingly revealing
> the identy of a covert agent? ... its that simple. He got a conviction
> against Libby which I've have admitted.


I didn't say that he made his case. I said that your contention that he
"didn't want to come up empty-handed" was bullshit. I believe that Cheney
knew that Plame was covert and that Cheney directed Libby to leak her name
to Judith Miller. Cheney is the one who committed the crime and Fitzgerald
suspected him. Libby lied to protect Cheney and paid the price.

>
>>>So he made a case instead based on Libby's admittedly imperfect memories
>>>of what transpired.

>>
>> Imperfect memories? ROTFLMAO! Libby lied and then lied again to cover
>> up his first lies.

>
> Both of the above are opinions only and cannot be proven.


Both of the above have been proven in a court of law.


> The only thing proven was that Libby lied and not that someone knowingly
> leaked Ms Plame's name.


As I said, Libby lied and the lied again to cover up his first lies.

>
>>>It was a technical case, but it stuck.

>>
>> Lying to a federal officer and obstruction of justice are felonies, not
>> "a technical case."

>
> True. And I've agreed that Libby lied.
>
>>> Why did Fitzgerald push this case? Fitzgerald knew early on in his
>>> investigation that it was Richard Armitage - and not Scooter Libby - who
>>> revealed the identity of Valerie Plame, a known CIA operative who had
>>> not been a covert agent for nearly a decade."

>>
>> Armitage, Libby, and Rove all leaked. Plame was a covert agent at the
>> time that the leaks occurred.

>
> She was not covert. If she was someone would have been held accountable
> ...
>>
>>> http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=268354704071158&kw=scotter,libby

>>
>> An editorial? That's what you use as facts? Pitiful you.

>
> You are welcomed to list the people found guilty of leaking a covert
> agents name. Ms Plame was not covert under the Intell Ident Prot law.


Yes, Plame was covert under the law. Fitzgerald determined that to be true
and the CIA Director confirmed it.

>I've admitted time after time Libby was guilty of lying. You haven't
>proven your claim that Ms Plame was 'covert' under the IIP act.


The Director of the CIA confirmed it. She was a "classified" agent who had
served out of the country in the last five years.

>
>>> It seemed Mr Fitzgerald had his own agenda and was using Mr Libby as way
>>> to accomplish this. If this is true, how ethical is that? I am in no
>>> way excusing Mr Libby's lying. To know who the real leaker was and go
>>> after someone to trap them in a lie, IMO is unethical. Mr Fitzgerald
>>> put his agenda ahead of persuing the leaker.

>>
>> Fitzgerald was unable to pursue the conspiracy angle because Libby lied
>> to him.

>
> Armitage didn't lie, and he and the FBI knew that it was him who was the
> original leaker. He had an open and shut case with Armitage. Your excuse
> doesn't cut it.


He had no case against Armitage because AGAIN, there was no evidence that
Armitage knew of Plame's covert status. How many ****ing times do I have to
tell you the same thing before it sinks into whatever it is that you are
using for a brain?

>
>>>>>>>The Judge, the FBI and Fitzgerald all knew who the real leaker was,
>>>>>>>Armitage of the State Dept.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Karl Rove and Scooter Libby also leaked her name -- do try to keep
>>>>>> up. All of this came out in the Libby trial.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes it came out at the trial. Fitzgerald and the FBI knew before the
>>>>> trial began who the leaker was. What was Fitzgeralds agenda?
>>>>
>>>> Fitzgerald attempted to determine if any of the leakers (Armitage,
>>>> Rove, and Libby) knew of Plame's covert status and if a conspiracy
>>>> existed.
>>>
>>> Mr Fitzgerald already knew who the leaker was and that it was most
>>> likely not a crime.

>>
>> Fitzgerald was attempting to determine if a conspiracy existed and Libby
>> lied to him.

>
> So you think everything relied on Libby ... that is wishful thinking ...


Libby prevented Fitzgerald from proving that Cheney orchestrated the leaks.

>you can parse things anyway you want, but apparently no law was broken
>except the purgery/obstruction of justice of Libby, which I'ves agreed.


Fitzgerald was unable to prove that Libby, Armitage, or Rove broke the law
by leaking Plame's name because he was unable to prove that any of them knew
of Plame's covert status -- I have stated this about 50 times.

>I've already agreeed many times that Libby was found guilty. Mr Fitzgerald
>was looking for the one who leaked a 'covert agents' identity ... breaking
>the IIP Act. He failed in that regard as I'ves said many time.


I have also said that many times.

>>
>>>He could have/should have/probably did know Ms Plame's status before he
>>>every started the case.

>>
>> He did. She was a covert operative heading up an operation that was
>> attempting to track down Middle Eastern operatives who were attempting to
>> secure nuclear weapons.

>
> The operative word is "was" a covert operative.


She was a covert operative until her name was leaked by Novak.

> As we have documented extensively, Plame was not a covert CIA operative
> but a desk jockey at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va.


As I have documented extensively, Plame was posing as an energy analyst for
Brewster-Jennings, a CIA front company. In that capacity, she was
attempting to track down Middle Eastern operatives who were attempting to
acquire nuclear weapons. She was acting in this capacity until the day that
Novak published here name.


>Her name was certainly no secret, appearing in Wilson's "Who's Who In
>America" entry.


Her name is not the issue. Her employment by the CIA is the issue. She
used her own name in the covert operation that she was running.

> She was there


Where?

> for a length of time that disqualified her from protection under the 1982
> Intelligence Identities Protection Act.


The above sentence is nonsense.

>
> Why was Plame sitting at a desk in Langley in the first place?


She wasn't.

>Well, according to Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz, U.S. officials
>said Plame's identity was first disclosed to Russia by a Moscow spy in the
>mid-1990s.


Untrue and unprovable.

>The Cubans learned her identity when they read supposedly sealed documents
>sent by the CIA to the U.S. Interests Section at the Swiss Embassy in
>Havana.


Untrue and unprovable.

>
> Her value as a "covert" asset vanished long ago.


It's amazing then, isn't it, that she was operating as a covert agent at the
time that her CIA employment was revealed by Novak? It's amazing then,
isn't it, that her covert status at the time of her outing by Novak was
confirmed by the Director of the CIA.

>One of the reasons Plame was working as a desk analyst in Langley,


She wasn't.

>having been brought back to the states in 1994, was that the CIA suspected
>her identity had been compromised by turncoat spy Aldrich Ames.


Untrue and unprovabel.

>
> http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=278203358749907&kw=plame


You keep referring to a ****ing EDITORIAL. What the **** is wrong with you?
An editorial is an opinion. So, you are choosing to believe an opinion over
a statement confirmed by the Director of the CIA. You are ****ing hopeless.

>
> There were many reasons she wasn't covert at the time she was exposed by
> Armitage.


Isn't it interesting that the Director of the CIA said just the opposite?

>>
>>
>>>Mr Fitzgerald figured he had bigger fish to fry and would use Liddy as a
>>>stepping stone.

>>
>> Fitzgerald was attempting to determine if a conspiracy existed and Libby
>> lied to him.

>
> This may well be true, but what caused there to be an investigation was
> outing a supposedly 'covert agent' Ms Plame. She wasn't apparently or
> someone would have been tried for exposing her.


As I have told you AT LEAST FIFTY TIMES, Fitzgerald was unable to prove that
those who outed her KNEW OF HER COVERT status. Are you retarded? What part
of "unable to prove that that those who outed her knew of her covert status"
do you not understand.


>>
>>>>
>>>> The trial was not about the leak -- it was about Libby's lies.
>>>
>>> No it was about who leaked Ms Plame's name to the press, something that
>>> Mr Fitzgerald already knew, along with the FBI. How did Mr Ftizgerald
>>> know ahead of time that Libby would in fact purger himself? He didn't
>>> know that. Tell me that?

>>
>> No, the trial was about the 5 counts under which Libby was indicted.

>
> So I'm just imagining that Ms Plame had anything at all to do with this
> investigation ... it was all about Libby???? .... What if any role did Ms
> Plame have in the investigation?


What investigation? We are talking about a trial, not an investigation.
The trial was about the 5 counts under which Libby was indicted. Libby was
convicted Tuesday, March 6, 2007, on one count of obstruction, two counts of
perjury, and one count of lying to the FBI and was acquitted of one count of
lying to the FBI. The trial was about Libby's lies -- it did not involve
Plame. Plame did not testify and the trial was not about her. It was about
the lies that Libby told. You must get all of your news from moronic
right-wing bobbleheads.


>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>He has not been charged ... no one to my knowledge has been charged
>>>>>>>with leaking Ms Plame's name. Even the judge has to go by the law
>>>>>>>... apparently it was not broken since no one has been charged with
>>>>>>>leaking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fitzgerald could not prove, as required by the applicable law, that
>>>>>> any of the leakers knew that she was a covert operative.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you know Fitzgerald couldn't prove anything
>>>>
>>>> It's very simple -- nobody was charged.
>>>
>>> He never tried Armitage to my knowledge ... Armitage would have probably
>>> admitted it ... he told his boss that it was him that had leaked the
>>> name to Novak.

>>
>> Correct. He only tried Libby on 5 counts of lying to a federal officer
>> and obstruction of justice.

>
> Why not exposing a 'covert agent'. You say above that Ms Plame was a
> covert agent. She wasn't and no one was held accountable for exposing her
> as such.


For the FIFTY-FIRST time, the law requires that the person exposing a covert
agent must know of the agent's covert status. Plame was covert and her
covert status was confirmed by the Director of the CIA. There was no
evidence that Libby knew that Plame was covert. So, there was no way that
he could be charged with exposing a covert agent. Why do you have such a
difficult time grasping this? This isn't rocket science. Are you an adult?


>>
>>>>
>>>>>... Armitage never was charged with leaking Ms Plame's name.
>>>>
>>>> Correct. Fitzgerald could not prove that he knew of Plame's covert
>>>> status.
>>>
>>> True, and that was what the trial was about.

>>
>> No, the trial was about Libby's lying. Plame's covert status was a fact.

>
> No it wasn't a fact. I've given you cites that proved she wasn't ...


No, you gave me an editorial -- an opinion.


>even the CIA didn't know if her name had been compromised by the mole,
>Aldrich Ames.


That, of course, is untrue. She was covert up until the instant that Novak
published her name and employer.


>
>>>>>Something else was going on ... I don't know what it was, but it was
>>>>>something. Fitzgerald knew the leaker before the trial began.
>>>>
>>>> There were three leakers -- Rove, Libby, and Armitage. Had Fitzgerald
>>>> been able to prove that any of them knew of Plame's covert status, that
>>>> person would have been charged.
>>>
>>> It makes no difference if there were 100 leakers, if its not a crime
>>> there is no law broken. Trials cost money they are not for trying to
>>> find people guilty of some other crime.
>>>
>>>> Libby's trial was not about the leak -- it was about his lies.
>>>
>>> Libs found guilty of lying, in the trial that was about who leaked Ms
>>> Plame's name. by wa Parsing it doesn't change the reason of the trial.

>>
>> Libby's trial was not about the leak -- it was about his lies and his
>> obstruction of justice. There is no parsing there. The trial WAS NOT
>> ABOUT WHO LEAKED PLAME'S NAME. Before the trail started, the names of
>> the leakers were known. Damn, you are incredibly stupid.

>
> Didn't you read what I wrote? I agreed that Libby lied and that is what
> he was covicted for. I've admitted it several time. You cannot seem to
> understand that Ms Plame wasn't covert.



You cannot seem to understand that Plame WAS covert. Verification of her
covert status was one of the first things that Fitzgerald did because if, in
fact, she hadn't been covert, there was no need to question anybody. Her
covert status was confirmed by the Director of the CIA.


>Ms Plame was the whole reason for the grand jury.


Grand jury? We have been talking about the Libby trial. You aren't
confusing the grand jury with the Libby trial are you? I think that you
are. Damn, you are one very stupid and very confused dumbass.

>If like Sec of State Powell said: "The FBI knew on day one of Mr
>Armitage's involvement," And so did P Fitzgerald.


Yes, but Fitzgerald didn't know about Libby's involvement or Rove's
involvement on day one.


>.... If everybody who had any contact witha reporter during that period,
>had done what armitage had done, I think this would have ended early on and
>not dragged out the way it has dragged out, Powell said, adding that he
>knew early on that NO CRIME had been committed in the incident.


Who knew? Powell? Who cares what Powell knew. Fitzgerald's investigation
revealed that in addition to Armitage, Rove an Libby also outed Plame --
Rove to Matt Cooper and Libby to Judith Miller.


>Mr. Libby go into trouble for an entirely different set of reaslons and
>circumstances." Powell was in a position to know, so was Fitzgerald.


Powell didn't know ****. Libby got into trouble when he lied about outing
Plame.

Read the article below.

Look for these key expressions:

"CIA front company"
"Brewster-Jennings & Associates"
"firm was listed as Plame's employer on her W-2 tax forms in 1999 when she
was working undercover for the CIA"
"Plame's job as an undercover operative"
"every foreign intelligence service would run Plame's name through its
databases within hours of its publication"

Here is the best one: "The document establishes that Plame has worked
undercover within the past five years."

I'm done with you. You are simply too stupid to deal with. You are either
not reading or incapable of understanding the essence of the Intelligence
Identities Protection Act. You refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence
regarding Plame's covert status. You confuse the grand jury with the jury
that heard the Libby case. The facts are below. You will likely ignore
them and like many people on the right, choose to be ignorant.

www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3?language=printer

washingtonpost.com
Leak of Agent's Name Causes Exposure of CIA Front Firm

By Walter Pincus and Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, October 4, 2003; Page A03


The leak of a CIA operative's name has also exposed the identity of a CIA
front company, potentially expanding the damage caused by the original
disclosure, Bush administration officials said yesterday.

The company's identity, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, became public
because it appeared in Federal Election Commission records on a form filled
out in 1999 by Valerie Plame, the case officer at the center of the
controversy, when she contributed $1,000 to Al Gore's presidential primary
campaign.

After the name of the company was broadcast yesterday, administration
officials confirmed that it was a CIA front. They said the obscure and
possibly defunct firm was listed as Plame's employer on her W-2 tax forms in
1999 when she was working undercover for the CIA. Plame's name was first
published July 14 in a newspaper column by Robert D. Novak that quoted two
senior administration officials. They were critical of her husband, former
ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, for his handling of a CIA mission that
undercut President Bush's claim that Iraq had sought uranium from the
African nation of Niger for possible use in developing nuclear weapons.

The Justice Department began a formal criminal investigation of the leak
Sept. 26.

The inadvertent disclosure of the name of a business affiliated with the CIA
underscores the potential damage to the agency and its operatives caused by
the leak of Plame's identity. Intelligence officials have said that once
Plame's job as an undercover operative was revealed, other agency secrets
could be unraveled and her sources might be compromised or endangered.

A former diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity said yesterday that
every foreign intelligence service would run Plame's name through its
databases within hours of its publication to determine if she had visited
their country and to reconstruct her activities.

"That's why the agency is so sensitive about just publishing her name," the
former diplomat said.

FEC rules require donors to list their employment. Plame used her married
name, Valerie E. Wilson, and listed her employment as an "analyst" with
Brewster-Jennings & Associates. The document establishes that Plame has
worked undercover within the past five years. The time frame is one of the
standards used in making determinations about whether a disclosure is a
criminal violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

It could not be learned yesterday whether other CIA operatives were
associated with Brewster-Jennings.

Also yesterday, the nearly 2,000 employees of the White House were given a
Tuesday deadline to scour their files and computers for any records related
to Wilson or contacts with journalists about Wilson. The broad order, in an
e-mail from White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales, directed them to retain
records "that relate in any way to former U.S. Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson,
his trip to Niger in February 2002, or his wife's purported relationship
with the Central Intelligence Agency."

White House employees received the e-mailed directive at 12:45 p.m., with an
all-capitalized subject line saying, "Important Follow-Up Message From
Counsel's Office." By 5 p.m. on Tuesday, employees must turn over copies of
relevant electronic records, telephone records, message slips, phone logs,
computer records, memos, and diaries and calendar entries.

The directive notes that lawyers in the counsel's office are attorneys for
the president in his official capacity and that they cannot provide personal
legal advice to employees.

For some officials, the task is a massive one. Some White House officials
said they had numerous conversations with Wilson that had nothing to do with
his wife, so the directive is seen as a heavy burden at a time when many of
the president's aides already feel beleaguered.

Officials at the Pentagon and State Department also have been asked to
retain records related to the case. Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said
yesterday: "We are doing our searches. . . . I'm not sure what they will be
looking for or what they wish to contact us about, but we are anxious to be
of all assistance to the inquiry."

In another development, FBI agents yesterday began attempts to interview
journalists who may have had conversations with government sources about
Plame and Wilson. It was not clear how many journalists had been contacted.
The FBI has interviewed Plame, ABC News reported.

Wilson and his wife have hired Washington lawyer Christopher Wolf to
represent them in the matter.

The couple has directed him to take a preliminary look at claims they might
be able to make against people they believe have impugned their character, a
source said.

The name of the CIA front company was broadcast yesterday by Novak, the
syndicated journalist who originally identified Plame. Novak, highlighting
Wilson's ties to Democrats, said on CNN that Wilson's "wife, the CIA
employee, gave $1,000 to Gore and she listed herself as an employee of
Brewster-Jennings & Associates."

"There is no such firm, I'm convinced," he continued. "CIA people are not
supposed to list themselves with fictitious firms if they're under a deep
cover -- they're supposed to be real firms, or so I'm told. Sort of adds to
the little mystery."

In fact, it appears the firm did exist, at least on paper. The Dun &
Bradstreet database of company names lists a firm that is called both
Brewster Jennings & Associates and Jennings Brewster & Associates.

The phone number in the listing is not in service, and the property manager
at the address listed said there is no such company at the property,
although records from 2000 were not available.

Wilson was originally listed as having given $2,000 to Gore during the
primary campaign in 1999, but the donation, over the legal limit of $1,000,
was "reattributed" so that Wilson and Plame each gave $1,000 to Gore. Wilson
also gave $1,000 to the Bush primary campaign, but there is no donation
listed from his wife.
 
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