Tired Ranting about Mental Dicipline

skategreen

New member
And this post my dear CES, illustrates why we are such good friends. You're such a good egg - I truly enjoy your clarity of thought and ability to express such.

Onward...........

An interesting thing to ponder... viewpoints based upon our own experience. Let me chew on this with you...I've not arrived at my own conclusion - still chewing...

The current method of creating physicians in this country is a complete joke. They select the genius people. Perfect academics, perfect activities, social movers and shakers, and basically your all around nerds. People with next to no soul if you ask me.

They take them, and bash into their brain to diagnose, classify and treat - the art of categorizing everything and prejudging. The teach them about the Pharmacopeia and how to use it to treat and to cure. What little shred of human being existed in the poor MD student when they entered medical school, is bashed right out of them so fast and so throughly by the time they get out and through their residency, that we are left with mostly mindless automatons. When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with your physician? Ha! It's a pity. However, I do admit there are exceptions to this rule, and when I find one in the form of a great doctor, I hang on for dear life, but mostly in my experience, doctors are bozos.

Yes, these doctors love to classify, diagnose and prescribe and I agree that it happens way too much and too easily.
I have a very limited experience with doctors - I think one helped deliver me..but that's almost the sum total of experience. :) But what you say sounds plausible. I'm willing to bet that if I had seen more doctors on a personal basis, I'd have a stronger viewpoint.

A true ADHD child would never have been brought to you as a teacher. They are incapable of functioning in a regular classroom environment.
I hear what you're saying, and this may well be very true. But wait...

So over the years I'm brought children who have been diagnosed with ADHD, classified as "slow learners", etc. So I bend and smile and greet the child and go on to handle them with great success. With various kids we have some interesting times in the beginning, but patience and skill wins the day.

Now, I'm thinking of a few specific cases here... I have children in front of me who "were a handful" at first, and who had specifically been removed from the public school system by their parents as they had refused to medicate their child, and refused the diagnosis.

As my score card mounts up... why wouldn't I form the opinion that these labels are purely bunk?

If I'm brought a dozen apples over the years and each time find I can't stand the taste... I'm gonna say I don't like the taste of apples!

Maybe you're very correct. I'm certain that there are children in worse condition than what I was handed. Maybe those are the "true" ADHD. I'd be interested in taking a crack at the worse cases...if I've yet to actually meet an ADHD..it would be interesting to see what I could do... but probably not in a secular school setting... I'd want to be able to use all the tools at my disposal, and that would mean using a plethora of Scientology techniques.

But... why wouldn't I have the Big Brass ***** to say that I don't believe in the "disorder", given my experience?

So let's just say... In general, I think most of the labels are bunk... from my own experience.

The point I was trying to make is that, one's experiences and observations guide one's viewpoints and that there is nothing wrong with that within that context. However, to allow oneself to formulate the conclusion that "it doesn't exist" simply because you have not personally observed or encountered it yourself, is in my opinion - narrow minded.
I agree with you in theory here.. yet I wouldn't go so far as saying it's "narrow minded". Case by case basis. I've never seen Leprosy, but I don't disbelieve in it. Personally, I always strive to "keep the door open a crack" to have my opinion changed or altered in some way. In things that I have experience in, I'm going to have a viewpoint lodged in firmer certainty than otherwise. It's gonna take more to change the viewpoint -

(example: I had some great exchanges with Lethal in the beginning, and it's taken a whole lot of **** to make me start thinking she's a witch without a broom or wits)

I offered your Scientology viewpoints not as a negative or a criticism nor as the basis for your earlier statements, but rather the exact opposite!
For you and in your experience, they (Scientology and it's teachings/training) obviously have had a significant value and benefit to you, and are very much part of your reality. Would it be right for others to discount them simply because they have not had a personal experience or observation of what you have?
Oh yeah, I fully get what you're saying here. This is run of the mill stuff.. any snoop of the internet finds lots of evidence of rabid attack. You know from our previous postings that I don't subscribe to the idea of discounting something without any knowledge of it at all. (within the bounds of reasoning thinking men..ie, I don't have to practice cannibalism to form an opinion)

Yet... anyone can call themself a Scientologist. And if I met someone who had had a really bad experience with people who called themselves such, I wouldn't peg them as narrow-minded or the usual idiot if they held a bad opinion. (ho ho...imagine.. some poor sap meeting "T. Pat Pearson", Gene Wirchenko, that Peter guy, Brent Clarke, ohhh yeah... you'd think all Scientologists were wing-nuts) (these are a few I've met over the years, you'd run screaming from) ... if a person held this opinion and was unwilling to change it despite other evidence, well then, that would be narrow-minded. That would be a "stuck viewpoint", I'd say....

On a personal note, you offered to me the most wondrous firsthand experience of exactly what I am saying here!
You see, when I met you here at GF, I instantly liked what you had to say, the manner of how you said it, your wit and charm, your tongue in cheekiness. I enjoyed all of it and I came to respect what you had to say. We developed a friendship outside of the Internet and without a doubt, it had validity and substance to me and it spoke to me in ways that I could relate to and it still does so, even stronger.

But then...one day...out of the blue, you told me that you were a Scientologist, a lifelong practitioner, highly active and trained and a firm believer of it's principles. ****, you even worked in an environment whose purpose is to help people based upon these beliefs. :eek: I felt like I had just been plugged directly into the electric socket...I thought - "Whoa Horse, Whoa! ****!! Stop the **** boat I want to get off!!! What the **** just happened here????" :confused:

Yes, even me, the mighty CES - so set in my ways...experienced immediately..a shaking at the core, torn out of the safety and comfort of my own little world of viewpoint, slammed face down into the ground and got a nice big stomp on the back of my head for good measure. I thought to myself...how could this be? This is not possible. This does not compute. This does not concur with my personal experience and knowledge.

It was in that exact moment and with a blinding clarity I have not known before, that I realized that I had just met a flaw in my mind. I had formulated an opinion of Scientology and Scientologist without even trying and without knowing it. I had formed an opinion from "Non-experience", from the absence of observation. Holy ****! System Crash!! Processor halted!!! Need to reboot...

What a POWERFUL learning experience for me.

Now, it's time for me to go watch Dancing Buttons... :)
And...this is such a hoot for me. You're such a doll face. This is part of why I love you. You're such a thinking, rational type doll. I didn't mean to shake your painting... but I love the way you describe it.

Dance buttons, dance!

 

Cogito Ergo Sum

New member
Well skategreen...good for us...what a meeting of minds!

I really cannot explain my reasons for defending the medication route for ADHD when in fact I no longer subscribe to it. Funny. I do feel that it has efficacy for certain individuals though.

Without a doubt, I feel that 90% of the individuals diagnosed ADHD is a misdiagnosis of convenience. It's the real 10% that I have had a taste of and am concerned with.

Most certainly, empirical evidence is not required to form a belief of something and I never meant to express that it was. I applaud your receptivity to perhaps someday, meeting and interacting with a real ADHD individual to enrich your own personal experience.

Cheers!

 

angie

New member
Well I’m not that old. They weren’t’ preforming lobotomies in my day if that’s what you mean. :rolleyes: I don’t really know what drugs they were giving him but he was a basket case when we went to see him. I guess you’re probably right though. Tech. has improved quite a bit.
No, I do realize you're not that old, but let's look at it this way. You have a granddaughter, let's say you're 50.

In your time-I'm going to assume it was somewhere between the ages of 17 and 25, so we shall say that your friend was given these meds 25 years ago.

25 years ago, things were very different in the mental health field. While I am not well versed on the specifics I do know that the medications, therapies, and other treatments have changed drastically since then. Comparing to your friend's expirience back then holds absolutely no merit in today's mental health world. The standards have changed. Quite a bit.

And here's a tidbit-The Massachusetts General Hospital of Boston performed on average 15 lobotamies per year between 1980-1986.

 

builder

New member
There's been several exposed cases of mothers pushing for positive ADHD prognoses, and then taking the drugs meant for their kids. Just what is the effect of these drugs? I have no idea.
 

angie

New member
There's been several exposed cases of mothers pushing for positive ADHD prognoses, and then taking the drugs meant for their kids. Just what is the effect of these drugs? I have no idea.
In someone who doesn't have ADHD, it can have the opposite effect-similar to speed. Definitely an upper.

 

snafu

New member
Actually, our opinions are supposed to be backed up with facts.http://www.nimh.nih.gov/studies/1add.cfm

As in FACT: ADHD exists whether you "believe" in it or not. "Beliefs" don't hold **** in the world of medicine.

Then see the above link.

Says the doctor who has done EXTENSIVE research into this field, who's OFFICIAL diagnosis is that this doesn't exist :rolleyes:

I was hyper...but I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD. And I was a little brat, but I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD.

Snafu, nothing you have said yet holds any water with anyone with the exception of skategreen.

So the MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL doesn't believe that REAL MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS are smart enough to do their job.

What exactly makes you more qualified to tell scientific researchers that they are stupid than the rest of us?

They do? I thought ADHD didn't exist!?!? Where are your studies to prove this??? Where are your facts???

Snafu, you should try RESEARCHING THE TOPIC before you debate it...it makes the more intelligent side have to waste less energy.
Before I read on I want to state that I had come to these conclusions and then googled up theses findings as well. Yes I found the ones that agreed with me. In fact Autism is proven. In fact there are no real tests for ADHD. In fact most kids diagnosed with ADHD do come from dysfunctional familes. So MM I plagiarized if you will a web site with this very statement. Alcohol and dug abused familes have a higher chance of having kids being diagnossed with this.

 

snafu

New member
And here's a tidbit-The Massachusetts General Hospital of Boston performed on average 15 lobotamies per year between 1980-1986.
Holy ****! I did not no they did that still in the 80's. I thought that was lost in the 50's!

 

angie

New member
Holy ****! I did not no they did that still in the 80's. I thought that was lost in the 50's!
Scary, isn't it?

I want to say that it is used now, still, very very rarely in severe cases. But I could be wrong. I'll have to ask Mom (or MM).

 

manicmonday

New member
Scary, isn't it?I want to say that it is used now, still, very very rarely in severe cases. But I could be wrong. I'll have to ask Mom (or MM).
It's different than they used to be, but in some extreme cases, they are done. But only in the bigger hospitals and usually the patient has had a brain injury, so they are correcting several things at once. They used to slice the patient open awake, pour in whiskey and go to work. It think we should all be grateful that's not common practice now. Now, electric shock treatment is coming back into favor. Of course it's more high tech then in the 40' and 50's. But it is making a resurgence.

 

hugo

New member
And here's a tidbit-The Massachusetts General Hospital of Boston performed on average 15 lobotamies per year between 1980-1986.

__________________

Their two most infamous patients were Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.

 

angie

New member
It's different than they used to be, but in some extreme cases, they are done. But only in the bigger hospitals and usually the patient has had a brain injury, so they are correcting several things at once. They used to slice the patient open awake, pour in whiskey and go to work. It think we should all be grateful that's not common practice now. Now, electric shock treatment is coming back into favor. Of course it's more high tech then in the 40' and 50's. But it is making a resurgence.
It's a ***** to get a court order for electric shock treatments. And it has to be renewed ever 60 days or so (or at least here in CT). But from what I've heard, it does wonders for the patients who really need it.

 

manicmonday

New member
It's a ***** to get a court order for electric shock treatments. And it has to be renewed ever 60 days or so (or at least here in CT). But from what I've heard, it does wonders for the patients who really need it.

Kansas is the WORST place ever to obtain psychiatric care. And it's not hard to get anyone court ordered here. Like 2 people testify, and boom, you are in the hospital. I've learned I have to be my own advocate on many topics because there are two camps of thinking here. One is the "snap out of attitude" that makes me want to puke and the other is to deny the condition exsists. Both are equally dangerous. And then there's the ****** up courts who like to put everyone in a mental hospital and tuck them away so society doesn't have to see. Stupid *******, all of them.

 

eisanbt

New member
Crutch? You are so obviously not well studied on this, otherwise that wouldn't have been your first word choice.

So well studied that I'd been diagnoised as bipolar, PTSD, mild detached personality and have been reading psych since I was in grade 10...yadda yadda yadda, who gives a **** it proves nothing etc... I now have a reletivly clean slate with nothing to do with drugging myself. I've twice said that I don't believe that meds shouldn't be abolished, just that the minds of many people who suffer from this particular sort of BS are capable of self healing. This will usually involve the body as well. Healthy body, healthy mind and vica-versa.

As was already said, we're just getting rolling in the world of psychology and are far from knowing all. It is my belief from experience, study and social interaction that our mind can be as plastic as we choose it to be.

 

TommyGun1928

New member
Well Eyesinbutt, I would like to believe you, but this is from your own post that started the thread.




So you are backtracking. You said yourself you hate Prozac. Then you try to say "well some people might need it. Bullshit. Stand by your first statement at least. You said it is used as a bullshit escape from self-responsiblity. I say your talking out your ***. If you feel like you can "heal your mind without a cop-out" fine. But when you make a blanket statment that says everyone else should do the same? You are wrong. You are talking out your ***. Not only did I go to school for this, I live it everyday and I can assure you, I'm not using it as a cop out. I use it to function. I take care of my child by myself every day, run a freelance writing gig, have several organizations I volunteer my time with and have a social life to boot. I'm not having a "crutch", I'm having a substance in my body that allows me to function in a way that is normal.

Take a few classes in physiology, psychology, psychiatray and socialogy. Your very first post that started this bullshit tirade said people can self heal. You are wrong. What people CAN do is take participation in their own care and get well. I am a full participant in my healthcare team, but to say I should self heal, "snap out of it", that I'm using a crutch to self medicate, or my favorite, to avoid self responsiblity? Shows me you are not as educated on this topic as you think you are. You have made a blanket statment and think every one should fall under the unbrella you have created. Sorry dude, your unbrella isn't functionable to me. What are you doing that is so great while you are self healing your mind? Sitting in an apartment with roommates discussing your craziness? That sounds productive.
I agree with you entirely.

CES said earlier that the mind is fragile and that it is hence shaped easily. I believe that "Eyesinbutt" believes the same thing, but the concept that this shaping can somehow lead to self-healing is contrary to logic. The mind is unlike any other organ. Most parts of the body, when damaged, heal (and some even become stronger, like callouses on skin) through the process of cellular mitosis. When it comes to the brain, that healing power is lost. If you lose part of your brain, it's gone forever. Your body has to bypass certain areas and, if you're lucky, parts of it may be remade by the transformation of stem cells.

But that's only if you lose part of your brain. What you're saying is that people can have serious psychological disorders, like you state that you had, and deal with it, somehow healing themselves automatically. That is a very difficult thing to believe-- the entire process has much too much left to chanec.

And, yes, it is extremely narrow-minded to believe that your case is comparable to all other cases. This means that because you could deal with it until you somehow got over it (a process which you still haven't proven was automatic/an ability the brain posesses) does not mean in the slightest that everyone can do the same thing. People have varrying degrees of disorder, and that means that some are so completely fargone that they can't just 'snap out of it', or 'faith heal'. These are the people who need medication.

 

Cogito Ergo Sum

New member
I agree with you entirely.
CES said earlier that the mind is fragile and that it is hence shaped easily. I believe that "Eyesinbutt" believes the same thing, but the concept that this shaping can somehow lead to self-healing is contrary to logic...
Not exactly.

The human mind is an amazingly complex and fragile organism. Everything we eat or drink, see, hear, smell, taste and feel causes our mind to form and to shape. Each of us are unique in that regard, yet remarkably similar as well.
I do not believe that the mind is shaped easily; quite the contrary and I'm uncertain as to where you attribute that idea to me.

Please continue...

 

TommyGun1928

New member
Not exactly.


I do not believe that the mind is shaped easily; quite the contrary and I'm uncertain as to where you attribute that idea to me.

Please continue...
"Not exactly" isn't an argument. You're slipping.

 

Cogito Ergo Sum

New member
"Not exactly" isn't an argument. You're slipping.
By *** you are getting more stupid by the minute... Arrggg...

"Not exactly" referred to you claiming to quote what I had said earlier on in the post. You got it wrong. I should have said, "No idiot, your wrong" but I tried to be diplomatic.

Silly me.

 

TommyGun1928

New member
I agree with you entirely.
CES said earlier that the mind is fragile and that it is hence shaped easily. I believe that "Eyesinbutt" believes the same thing, but the concept that this shaping can somehow lead to self-healing is contrary to logic. The mind is unlike any other organ. Most parts of the body, when damaged, heal (and some even become stronger, like callouses on skin) through the process of cellular mitosis. When it comes to the brain, that healing power is lost. If you lose part of your brain, it's gone forever. Your body has to bypass certain areas and, if you're lucky, parts of it may be remade by the transformation of stem cells.

But that's only if you lose part of your brain. What you're saying is that people can have serious psychological disorders, like you state that you had, and deal with it, somehow healing themselves automatically. That is a very difficult thing to believe-- the entire process has much too much left to chanec.

And, yes, it is extremely narrow-minded to believe that your case is comparable to all other cases. This means that because you could deal with it until you somehow got over it (a process which you still haven't proven was automatic/an ability the brain posesses) does not mean in the slightest that everyone can do the same thing. People have varrying degrees of disorder, and that means that some are so completely fargone that they can't just 'snap out of it', or 'faith heal'. These are the people who need medication.
To sum it up, faith healing is a sham. Too many people fall for analogies that contradict the truth. In this case, the mind can heal from a psychological disorder as a limb heals from a physical injury.

 

eisanbt

New member
People have varrying degrees of disorder, and that means that some are so completely fargone that they can't just 'snap out of it', or 'faith heal'. These are the people who need medication.

I agree, and stated this in the very first post of this thread, I did not make an all-encompassing umbrella statment... :rolleyes:

 
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