Tired Ranting about Mental Dicipline

[manicmonday]

Snafu, I'm with you on your non-belief. While teaching I found that there was no such thing. Just a prior lousy teaching job and poor parenting.

What I find incredible is that anyone would even swallow the concept. We've all read the symptoms, right? Jesus H. Christ. What a load of horseshit. By the criteria, ANY child (and many adults) (most adults?) could be diagnosed with this pharmaceutical money generating "diagnosis".

I wouldn't take the word of someone who believes in the religion of Ron Hubbard. Calling Tom Cruise, skategreen is calling your number. I too believe many things are overdiagnosed and treated. I also know that some things are medically related. It's not about bad parenting.

We didn't know about Irritable Bowl Sydndrom in the 70's, but many people are living better lives with medication to control the symtoms.

But I supposed you believe Vitamins will cure those people also?

I'll take the knowledge of a doctor who has gone to school over 12 years then a follower of a religion that doesn't acknowledge we might not know everything about the mind.

 

[snafu]

I wouldn't take the word of someone who believes in the religion of Ron Hubbard. Calling Tom Cruise, skategreen is calling your number. I too believe many things are overdiagnosed and treated. I also know that some things are medically related. It's not about bad parenting.

We didn't know about Irritable Bowl Sydndrom in the 70's, but many people are living better lives with medication to control the symtoms.

But I supposed you believe Vitamins will cure those people also?

I'll take the knowledge of a doctor who has gone to school over 12 years then a follower of a religion that doesn't acknowledge we might not know everything about the mind.

I know kids running a muck can be a pain in the ass. And I know we

 

[manicmonday]

I know kids running a muck can be a pain in the ass. And I know we

 

[snafu]

Seems like a terrible Knn Dishin... Knn Knn Knn Dishin'! Knn Knn Knn Knn Knn Knn Dishin'! Knn Knn Doctor! Doc doc Knn Dishin'. Doc doc doc doctor! doc doc Knn Dishin! Doc doc doc doctor! Doc doc Knn Dishin'. Doc doc doc doctor doc doc Knn Dishin'! Vew vew vew vew IRRIVERSIBLE vew vew vew vew vew vew vew vew IRRIVERSIBLE doc doc Dishin' Knn Knn Knn Dishin'...

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/carmacscondition

Tommy Tommy Tommy. Just when I started to have faith in you as a good debater. Oh that's right your a master-bater. Two times a day. This must not be that time of day for you. Put down the glue and come down to earth would you?

 

[snafu]

I don't believe in over medicating, believe me. But I'm also tired of people grumbling about medication for mental problems that they really have no idea about. None, zilch, nada. Just like you don't tell a heart patient not take medicine to control it. It's the same thing. But because people have the "snap out of it" attitude, many people don't get the help they need.

I agree that children are a bad rat to test on. I agree that there are too many over medicated. I do not agree that help isn't always needed.

True there are mental illnesses that do need medication. I'm not tring to refute that. I just don't believe in ADHD. And I have seen what over medication can do to someone diagnossed with a mental problem. A friend of mine was sent into a mental hospital in our younger days and they doped the **** out of him. He wasn't crazy, he just wouldn't sleep. He fought it and it only made it worse. The way they cured him is that we all told him to play the game and they'll let you out.

 

[angie]

True there are mental illnesses that do need medication. I'm not tring to refute that. I just don't believe in ADHD. And I have seen what over medication can do to someone diagnossed with a mental problem. A friend of mine was sent into a mental hospital in our younger days and they doped the **** out of him. He wasn't crazy, he just wouldn't sleep. He fought it and it only made it worse. The way they cured him is that we all told him to play the game and they'll let you out.

Hun, please don't take this as an insult, but-the medications they used in your younger days, and the knowledge, have changed drastically. They have really just started to figure things out (with lots left to learn) about the human brain in the last two decades. The changes made in the last decade alone have been phenomenal.

 

[Mohammed_Rots_In_Hell]

Hun, please don't take this as an insult, but-the medications they used in your younger days, and the knowledge, have changed drastically. They have really just started to figure things out (with lots left to learn) about the human brain in the last two decades. The changes made in the last decade alone have been phenomenal.

I'm late for my electro-shock treatments, gotta run.

 

[snafu]

Hun, please don't take this as an insult, but-the medications they used in your younger days, and the knowledge, have changed drastically. They have really just started to figure things out (with lots left to learn) about the human brain in the last two decades. The changes made in the last decade alone have been phenomenal.

Well I

 

[eisanbt]

I don't believe in over medicating, believe me. But I'm also tired of people grumbling about medication for mental problems that they really have no idea about. None, zilch, nada. Just like you don't tell a heart patient not take medicine to control it. It's the same thing. But because people have the "snap out of it" attitude, many people don't get the help they need.

I agree that children are a bad rat to test on. I agree that there are too many over medicated. I do not agree that help isn't always needed.

But at the same time, the human mind is capable of healing itself. From my psych studies, and more so, from my own experience I believe in the person's ability to change themselves for the better. I do recognize that this is not possible for those with natural genetic ****-ups which are just as habilitating as being born without a leg, I don't advocate depriving such people of their crutch. (Real ADD is an example of an in-born problem)

My beef is with those acquired mental illnesses which most accept as part of themselves and unchangeable unless you use drugs. Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, acquired depression, Slight or even moderate detached personality disorder; All are the results of our lives and are developed through experience (For the most part). I say that you should not submit to a drug to rid you of these things. Your mind has the capability to get over it, Faith-Healing works something like this; The mind simply knows it time to let go and returns to regular, healthy function.

Until a pill comes around that’s a one shot deal (Which is doubtful as your money is made on the resale...) than I'd recommend drugs for very few and only as a therapy aid.

 

[manicmonday]

But at the same time, the human mind is capable of healing itself. From my psych studies, and more so, from my own experience I believe in the person's ability to change themselves for the better. I do recognize that this is not possible for those with natural genetic ****-ups which are just as habilitating as being born without a leg, I don't advocate depriving such people of their crutch. (Real ADD is an example of an in-born problem)

Crutch? You are so obviously not well studied on this, otherwise that wouldn't have been your first word choice.

My beef is with those acquired mental illnesses which most accept as part of themselves and unchangeable unless you use drugs. Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, acquired depression, Slight or even moderate detached personality disorder; All are the results of our lives and are developed through experience (For the most part). I say that you should not submit to a drug to rid you of these things. Your mind has the capability to get over it, Faith-Healing works something like this; The mind simply knows it time to let go and returns to regular, healthy function.

Again your ignorance is shining thru. "snap out of mentality". Go **** Tom Cruise and leave real issues to people who care about people. The body can't start making serotonin when the brain quits making it. Not going to happen. I say you should read a real book and quit quoting from things you have no idea about. You mind doesn't have the ability to start making serotonin after it loses it's ability. Studies are being done, but until they figure it out, I'll trust taking a pill over "snap out of it".

Until a pill comes around that

 

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Okay...

Here goes...


It is illogical and downright pigheaded to simply outright deny both the emergent classification of a neurological disorder and the emergent medication therapies developed for these disorders.

Do you really think that the pharmaceutical companies spend billions of dollars and years of research to develop medications for conditions which do not exist or cannot be scientifically quantified or analyzed?

Get real!

One of my very dear friends is a PhD. Biochemist drug researcher at the Scripps Research Institute and I assure you, he has not dedicated his life to researching and developing medicines for imaginary illness and fabricated years of research data and studies to hoodwink the public.

Please....

Also, simply saying that "where was this diagnosis x number of years ago" just doesn't hold water at all. Medicine advances as all science advances. 25 years ago, the concept of Post Partum Depression was non-existent, and to any woman who had a regular uneventful pregnancy, birth and recuperation, they would claim that it didn't exist. However, having been on the husband end of 3 pregnancies which resulted in DEBILITATING post partum Depression disorder, I can confirm it is real.

Skategreen, I love ya but you would like everybody to subscribe to the Thetan's and auditing and such; something the majority of the population claims is suspect at best, yet you outright dismiss something as serious as mental disorders and medication therapy as being completely fabricated and unnecessary. I find that to be curious.

Although I too find a great many ideas behind Scientology, to be a bitter pill to swallow, I celebrate it's value to you and the way it has shaped the person I have come to know and love.

Likewise, I am a parent of 3 sons, 2 of whom are disabled including 1 who has struggled with Autism and PDD/ADHD and I think you know my dedication to my children as a parent, so I don't think its a parenting issue. Do I use the medications, not anymore. Why, because I felt that my sons had outgrown them and their benefits. We manage without them. Does that mean everything is peachy? No. But for me, it's OK.

I have several other parents and friends of my sons whom their children are on the medications. Many are doing fantastic. Some not so great, and some, medication was outgrown or just not working. That's life.

My final word on this is that people should never be so quick to judge another person's medical condition or medication therapy. It a personal and highly private issue.

 

[skategreen]

Okay...

Here goes...


It is illogical and downright pigheaded to simply outright deny both the emergent classification of a neurological disorder and the emergent medication therapies developed for these disorders.

Do you really think that the pharmaceutical companies spend billions of dollars and years of research to develop medications for conditions which do not exist or cannot be scientifically quantified or analyzed?

Get real!

One of my very dear friends is a PhD. Biochemist drug researcher at the Scripps Research Institute and I assure you, he has not dedicated his life to researching and developing medicines for imaginary illness and fabricated years of research data and studies to hoodwink the public.

Please....

Also, simply saying that "where was this diagnosis x number of years ago" just doesn't hold water at all. Medicine advances as all science advances. 25 years ago, the concept of Post Partum Depression was non-existent, and to any woman who had a regular uneventful pregnancy, birth and recuperation, they would claim that it didn't exist. However, having been on the husband end of 3 pregnancies which resulted in DEBILITATING post partum Depression disorder, I can confirm it is real.

Skategreen, I love ya but you would like everybody to subscribe to the Thetan's and auditing and such; something the majority of the population claims is suspect at best, yet you outright dismiss something as serious as mental disorders and medication therapy as being completely fabricated and unnecessary. I find that to be curious.

Although I too find a great many ideas behind Scientology, to be a bitter pill to swallow, I celebrate it's value to you and the way it has shaped the person I have come to know and love.

Likewise, I am a parent of 3 sons, 2 of whom are disabled including 1 who has struggled with Autism and PDD/ADHD and I think you know my dedication to my children as a parent, so I don't think its a parenting issue. Do I use the medications, not anymore. Why, because I felt that my sons had outgrown them and their benefits. We manage without them. Does that mean everything is peachy? No. But for me, it's OK.

I have several other parents and friends of my sons whom their children are on the medications. Many are doing fantastic. Some not so great, and some, medication was outgrown or just not working. That's life.

My final word on this is that people should never be so quick to judge another person's medical condition or medication therapy. It a personal and highly private issue.

CES.....

Don't jump too fast into putting my viewpoints into a religious pigeon hole.

I'm speaking as a teacher. A teacher who has had literally hundreds of children in both regular class and my Saturday Reading class, and in addition, I was also very involved with the children of the other grades through out the years.

As a teacher in a private school, I had many children brought to me by parents who did not agree with the diagnoses of their children. I've had kids who had been told they needed to be medicated.

I taught them all. It usually took about 3 days for the child to start getting the idea that this place might be different, might be safe. A few kids took a month or two at the most to blossom.

So many times, later...I'd be sitting and chatting with a parent, and suddenly reflect back on what we had in the beginning, .. I'd have one of those, "holy smokes! I forgot about that!" moments.

I have long letters of recommendations and thanks from parents.

THIS is where my viewpoint is bedded, rock solid. Experience.

(oh, and I was teaching children from all religions and backgrounds, I worked at a secular school)

If you're around kids, you see that the "symptoms" of ADHD and so forth are hugely suspect.

I agree with you that the issues are personal and private. I agree that not all cases/kids respond to the exact same treatment.

I disagree with any social mindset that reaches for drugs as a quick fix. I submit that our society is heading more and more towards everything being, "a disease", needing medication. Obesity, PMS, kids full of life.

 

[skategreen]

I too believe many things are overdiagnosed and treated.

We are in complete agreement on this point.

But I supposed you believe Vitamins will cure those people also?

Absolutely not. The adverse effects of a vitamin deficiency is about the only thing helped by taking vitamins/nutritious food.

 

[manicmonday]

Okay...


My final word on this is that people should never be so quick to judge another person's medical condition or medication therapy. It a personal and highly private issue.

This is very true. Anybody that makes rash judgements about PPD, PTSD, bipolar or mood disorders automatically get dismissed off my radar of people who I associate with. You don't feel like they exsist? Great, however we have nothing in common. And I find that many different religion dismiss psychology because they don't understand it. Which breeds fear. Which breeds rash judgements about bad parenting skills, bad coping skills or whatever else is the soup de jur to blame. I don't have time for these kind of people.

 

[snafu]

Okay...

Here goes...


It is illogical and downright pigheaded to simply outright deny both the emergent classification of a neurological disorder and the emergent medication therapies developed for these disorders.

Do you really think that the pharmaceutical companies spend billions of dollars and years of research to develop medications for conditions which do not exist or cannot be scientifically quantified or analyzed?

Get real!

One of my very dear friends is a PhD. Biochemist drug researcher at the Scripps Research Institute and I assure you, he has not dedicated his life to researching and developing medicines for imaginary illness and fabricated years of research data and studies to hoodwink the public.

Please....

Also, simply saying that "where was this diagnosis x number of years ago" just doesn't hold water at all. Medicine advances as all science advances. 25 years ago, the concept of Post Partum Depression was non-existent, and to any woman who had a regular uneventful pregnancy, birth and recuperation, they would claim that it didn't exist. However, having been on the husband end of 3 pregnancies which resulted in DEBILITATING post partum Depression disorder, I can confirm it is real.

Skategreen, I love ya but you would like everybody to subscribe to the Thetan's and auditing and such; something the majority of the population claims is suspect at best, yet you outright dismiss something as serious as mental disorders and medication therapy as being completely fabricated and unnecessary. I find that to be curious.

Although I too find a great many ideas behind Scientology, to be a bitter pill to swallow, I celebrate it's value to you and the way it has shaped the person I have come to know and love.

Likewise, I am a parent of 3 sons, 2 of whom are disabled including 1 who has struggled with Autism and PDD/ADHD and I think you know my dedication to my children as a parent, so I don't think its a parenting issue. Do I use the medications, not anymore. Why, because I felt that my sons had outgrown them and their benefits. We manage without them. Does that mean everything is peachy? No. But for me, it's OK.

I have several other parents and friends of my sons whom their children are on the medications. Many are doing fantastic. Some not so great, and some, medication was outgrown or just not working. That's life.

My final word on this is that people should never be so quick to judge another person's medical condition or medication therapy. It a personal and highly private issue.

Were not all doctors here and this is a debate forum. So it’s our opinions and not our diagnoses. So don’t fret over our assumptions. And I would never suggest you were a bad parent. However...

Autism is a very real neurological disorder that can be proven. I don’t believe ADHD has. There are no real tests to prove this exists. It is diagnosed to any child that is moody or hyper. So even if it were real I don’t think the doctors have a viable knowledge to come to this conclusion. Most ADHD diagnosed children do come from dysfunctional families. So I think the prove is in the pudding.

 

[manicmonday]

Most ADHD diagnosed children do come from dysfunctional families. So I think the prove is in the pudding.

No offense snafu because I like you, but that is one of the more stupid things I've seen you say. Have you ever thought that having a high needs child can make a family dysfunctional? That the needs of a child can tear down the family tree?

I don't think you can dismiss something that you don't believe in. I don't believe in Budda, but I don't dismiss him.

 

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES.....

Don't jump too fast into putting my viewpoints into a religious pigeon hole.

...

If you're around kids, you see that the "symptoms" of ADHD and so forth are hugely suspect.

I agree with you that the issues are personal and private. I agree that not all cases/kids respond to the exact same treatment.

I disagree with any social mindset that reaches for drugs as a quick fix. I submit that our society is heading more and more toward everything being, "a disease", needing medication. Obesity, PMS, kids full of life.

Whoops. We seemed to have slipped a communication gear there. Let me downshift.

The current method of creating physicians in this country is a complete joke. They select the genius people. Perfect academics, perfect activities, social movers and shakers, and basically your all around nerds. People with next to no soul if you ask me.

They take them, and bash into their brain to diagnose, classify and treat - the art of categorizing everything and prejudging. The teach them about the Pharmacopeia and how to use it to treat and to cure. What little shred of human being existed in the poor MD student when they entered medical school, is bashed right out of them so fast and so throughly by the time they get out and through their residency, that we are left with mostly mindless automatons. When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with your physician? Ha! It's a pity. However, I do admit there are exceptions to this rule, and when I find one in the form of a great doctor, I hang on for dear life, but mostly in my experience, doctors are bozos.

Yes, these doctors love to classify, diagnose and prescribe and I agree that it happens way too much and too easily.

I have seen many children classified as ADHD which in my observation, I thought to be nothing of the sort. I have on the other hand, been involved in research groups, teaching studies at Children's Hospital, parent support groups and other like activities, and I can assure you that I have encountered real children with real problems and real ADHD.

A true ADHD child would never have been brought to you as a teacher. They are incapable of functioning in a regular classroom environment.

Regrettably, a large portion of parent with special needs children, keep their children at home and attempt to home school them with varying degrees of success.

I apologize if you felt that I was putting your viewpoints into a religious pigeon hole. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The point I was trying to make is that, one's experiences and observations guide one's viewpoints and that there is nothing wrong with that within that context. However, to allow oneself to formulate the conclusion that "it doesn't exist" simply because you have not personally observed or encountered it yourself, is in my opinion - narrow minded.

I offered your Scientology viewpoints not as a negative or a criticism nor as the basis for your earlier statements, but rather the exact opposite!

For you and in your experience, they (Scientology and it's teachings/training) obviously have had a significant value and benefit to you, and are very much part of your reality. Would it be right for others to discount them simply because they have not had a personal experience or observation of what you have?

On a personal note, you offered to me the most wondrous firsthand experience of exactly what I am saying here!

You see, when I met you here at GF, I instantly liked what you had to say, the manner of how you said it, your wit and charm, your tongue in cheekiness. I enjoyed all of it and I came to respect what you had to say. We developed a friendship outside of the Internet and without a doubt, it had validity and substance to me and it spoke to me in ways that I could relate to and it still does so, even stronger.

But then...one day...out of the blue, you told me that you were a Scientologist, a lifelong practitioner, highly active and trained and a firm believer of it's principles. Hell, you even worked in an environment whose purpose is to help people based upon these beliefs. I felt like I had just been plugged directly into the electric socket...I thought - "Whoa Horse, Whoa! ****!! Stop the damn boat I want to get off!!! What the **** just happened here????"

Yes, even me, the mighty CES - so set in my ways...experienced immediately..a shaking at the core, torn out of the safety and comfort of my own little world of viewpoint, slammed face down into the ground and got a nice big stomp on the back of my head for good measure. I thought to myself...how could this be? This is not possible. This does not compute. This does not concur with my personal experience and knowledge.

It was in that exact moment and with a blinding clarity I have not known before, that I realized that I had just met a flaw in my mind. I had formulated an opinion of Scientology and Scientologist without even trying and without knowing it. I had formed an opinion from "Non-experience", from the absence of observation. Holy ****! System Crash!! Processor halted!!! Need to reboot...

What a POWERFUL learning experience for me.

The human mind is an amazingly complex and fragile organism. Everything we eat or drink, see, hear, smell, taste and feel causes our mind to form and to shape. Each of us are unique in that regard, yet remarkably similar as well.

Pharmaceuticals have their benefits and detriments to be sure, but to simply dismiss them and the conditions they are designed to treat, seems highly suspect to me.

Now, it's time for me to go watch Dancing Buttons...

 

[builder]

On the good doctor//bad doctor issue, I tend to agree that most are automatons, often scribbling off an illegible script before you've finished telling them what is wrong with you.

I had a sickly upbringing, possibly due to my addiction to milk. I recall a three month period of daily injections for chronic inner ear infections. Drank four litres of milk a day, minimum. Now that I don't drink it, I've had only two doc visits in the last five years. One for water on the knee, from too much tiling, and the prescribed anti-inflammatory drugs did the job nicely, and the last for a speck of glaze off a tile entering my eye, and exposing it to germ entry.

That doc was a classic. He wore sandals, walk shorts, and a T-shirt. It had been so long since I'd used my medicare card, that I was off the list. He found an entity on his database, a bloke with the same name as mine, and enquired how I kept myself in such good shape, considering I was now 96 years old.

That visit was fun, entertaining, and informative. He spoke in layman's language, made small-talk, asked for a business card, and put my mind at ease. A true professional.

I'm not one to run to the doc for trivial reasons, but if I ever need advice again, I know where I'll be heading. Good docs are thin on the ground, and I agree with CES that the industry churns out unfeeling, tactless robots, intent only on medication, rather than constructive therapeutic help.

We are not animals. We are human beings. I've seen veterinarians with more compassion and understanding than many doctors.

 

[jokersarewild]

Were not all doctors here and this is a debate forum. So it

 

[skategreen]

And this post my dear CES, illustrates why we are such good friends. You're such a good egg - I truly enjoy your clarity of thought and ability to express such.

Onward...........

An interesting thing to ponder... viewpoints based upon our own experience. Let me chew on this with you...I've not arrived at my own conclusion - still chewing...

The current method of creating physicians in this country is a complete joke. They select the genius people. Perfect academics, perfect activities, social movers and shakers, and basically your all around nerds. People with next to no soul if you ask me.

They take them, and bash into their brain to diagnose, classify and treat - the art of categorizing everything and prejudging. The teach them about the Pharmacopeia and how to use it to treat and to cure. What little shred of human being existed in the poor MD student when they entered medical school, is bashed right out of them so fast and so throughly by the time they get out and through their residency, that we are left with mostly mindless automatons. When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with your physician? Ha! It's a pity. However, I do admit there are exceptions to this rule, and when I find one in the form of a great doctor, I hang on for dear life, but mostly in my experience, doctors are bozos.

Yes, these doctors love to classify, diagnose and prescribe and I agree that it happens way too much and too easily.

I have a very limited experience with doctors - I think one helped deliver me..but that's almost the sum total of experience. But what you say sounds plausible. I'm willing to bet that if I had seen more doctors on a personal basis, I'd have a stronger viewpoint.

A true ADHD child would never have been brought to you as a teacher. They are incapable of functioning in a regular classroom environment.

I hear what you're saying, and this may well be very true. But wait...
So over the years I'm brought children who have been diagnosed with ADHD, classified as "slow learners", etc. So I bend and smile and greet the child and go on to handle them with great success. With various kids we have some interesting times in the beginning, but patience and skill wins the day.

Now, I'm thinking of a few specific cases here... I have children in front of me who "were a handful" at first, and who had specifically been removed from the public school system by their parents as they had refused to medicate their child, and refused the diagnosis.

As my score card mounts up... why wouldn't I form the opinion that these labels are purely bunk?

If I'm brought a dozen apples over the years and each time find I can't stand the taste... I'm gonna say I don't like the taste of apples!

Maybe you're very correct. I'm certain that there are children in worse condition than what I was handed. Maybe those are the "true" ADHD. I'd be interested in taking a crack at the worse cases...if I've yet to actually meet an ADHD..it would be interesting to see what I could do... but probably not in a secular school setting... I'd want to be able to use all the tools at my disposal, and that would mean using a plethora of Scientology techniques.

But... why wouldn't I have the Big Brass Balls to say that I don't believe in the "disorder", given my experience?

So let's just say... In general, I think most of the labels are bunk... from my own experience.

The point I was trying to make is that, one's experiences and observations guide one's viewpoints and that there is nothing wrong with that within that context. However, to allow oneself to formulate the conclusion that "it doesn't exist" simply because you have not personally observed or encountered it yourself, is in my opinion - narrow minded.

I agree with you in theory here.. yet I wouldn't go so far as saying it's "narrow minded". Case by case basis. I've never seen Leprosy, but I don't disbelieve in it. Personally, I always strive to "keep the door open a crack" to have my opinion changed or altered in some way. In things that I have experience in, I'm going to have a viewpoint lodged in firmer certainty than otherwise. It's gonna take more to change the viewpoint -

(example: I had some great exchanges with Lethal in the beginning, and it's taken a whole lot of crap to make me start thinking she's a witch without a broom or wits)

I offered your Scientology viewpoints not as a negative or a criticism nor as the basis for your earlier statements, but rather the exact opposite!

For you and in your experience, they (Scientology and it's teachings/training) obviously have had a significant value and benefit to you, and are very much part of your reality. Would it be right for others to discount them simply because they have not had a personal experience or observation of what you have?

Oh yeah, I fully get what you're saying here. This is run of the mill stuff.. any snoop of the internet finds lots of evidence of rabid attack. You know from our previous postings that I don't subscribe to the idea of discounting something without any knowledge of it at all. (within the bounds of reasoning thinking men..ie, I don't have to practice cannibalism to form an opinion)

Yet... anyone can call themself a Scientologist. And if I met someone who had had a really bad experience with people who called themselves such, I wouldn't peg them as narrow-minded or the usual idiot if they held a bad opinion. (ho ho...imagine.. some poor sap meeting "T. Pat Pearson", Gene Wirchenko, that Peter guy, Brent Clarke, ohhh yeah... you'd think all Scientologists were wing-nuts) (these are a few I've met over the years, you'd run screaming from) ... if a person held this opinion and was unwilling to change it despite other evidence, well then, that would be narrow-minded. That would be a "stuck viewpoint", I'd say....

On a personal note, you offered to me the most wondrous firsthand experience of exactly what I am saying here!

You see, when I met you here at GF, I instantly liked what you had to say, the manner of how you said it, your wit and charm, your tongue in cheekiness. I enjoyed all of it and I came to respect what you had to say. We developed a friendship outside of the Internet and without a doubt, it had validity and substance to me and it spoke to me in ways that I could relate to and it still does so, even stronger.

But then...one day...out of the blue, you told me that you were a Scientologist, a lifelong practitioner, highly active and trained and a firm believer of it's principles. Hell, you even worked in an environment whose purpose is to help people based upon these beliefs. I felt like I had just been plugged directly into the electric socket...I thought - "Whoa Horse, Whoa! ****!! Stop the damn boat I want to get off!!! What the **** just happened here????"

Yes, even me, the mighty CES - so set in my ways...experienced immediately..a shaking at the core, torn out of the safety and comfort of my own little world of viewpoint, slammed face down into the ground and got a nice big stomp on the back of my head for good measure. I thought to myself...how could this be? This is not possible. This does not compute. This does not concur with my personal experience and knowledge.

It was in that exact moment and with a blinding clarity I have not known before, that I realized that I had just met a flaw in my mind. I had formulated an opinion of Scientology and Scientologist without even trying and without knowing it. I had formed an opinion from "Non-experience", from the absence of observation. Holy ****! System Crash!! Processor halted!!! Need to reboot...

What a POWERFUL learning experience for me.


Now, it's time for me to go watch Dancing Buttons...

And...this is such a hoot for me. You're such a doll face. This is part of why I love you. You're such a thinking, rational type doll. I didn't mean to shake your painting... but I love the way you describe it.

Dance buttons, dance!