WAS WWII WORTH FIGHTING?

S

Sean Sannity

Guest
This fascinating article really begs the question. Would we have had
a Cold War with the Soviets? Would Mao have ever emerged in China?

JUST HOW DIFFERENT WOULD THE WORLD BE TODAY IF WE HAD NOT FOUGHT?

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25859

Was It 'The Good War'?
by Patrick J. Buchanan
Posted: 04/04/2008

"Yes, it was a good war," writes Richard Cohen in his column
challenging the thesis of pacifist Nicholson Baker in his new book,
"Human Smoke," that World War II produced more evil than good.

Baker's compelling work, which uses press clips and quotes of Axis and
Allied leaders as they plunged into the great cataclysm, is a virtual
diary of the days leading up to World War II.

Riveting to this writer was that Baker uses some of the same episodes,
sources and quotes as this author in my own book out in May,
"Churchill, Hitler and 'The Unnecessary War.'"

On some points, Cohen is on sold ground. There are things worth
fighting for: God and country, family and freedom. Martyrs have ever
inspired men. And to some evils pacifism is no answer. Resistance,
even unto death, may be required of a man.

But when one declares a war that produced Hiroshima and the Holocaust
a "Good War," it raises a question: good for whom?

Britain declared war on Sept. 3, 1939, to preserve Poland. For six
years, Poland was occupied by Nazi and Soviet armies and SS and NKVD
killers. At war's end, the Polish dead were estimated at 6 million. A
third of Poland had been torn away by Stalin, and Nazis had used the
country for the infamous camps of Treblinka and Auschwitz.

Fifteen thousand Polish officers had been massacred at places like
Katyn. The Home Army that rose in Warsaw at the urging of the Red Army
in 1944 had been annihilated, as the Red Army watched from the other
side of the Vistula. When the British celebrated V-E day in May 1945,
Poland began 44 years of tyranny under the satraps of Stalin,
Khrushchev and Brezhnev.

Was World War II "a good war" for the Poles?

Was it a good war for Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, overrun by
Stalin's army in June 1940, whose people saw their leaders murdered or
deported to the Gulag never to return? Was it a good war for the Finns
who lost Karelia and thousands of brave men dead in the Winter War?

Was it a good war for Hungarians, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Rumanians and
Albanians who ended up behind the Iron Curtain? In Hungary, it was
hard to find a women or girl over 10 who had not been raped by the
"liberators" of the Red Army. Was it a good war for the 13 million
German civilians ethnically cleansed from Central Europe and the 2
million who died in the exodus?

Was it a good war for the French, who surrendered after six weeks of
fighting in 1940 and had to be liberated by the Americans and British
after four years of Vichy collaboration?

And how good a war was it for the British?

They went to war for Poland, but Winston Churchill abandoned Poland to
Stalin. Defeated in Norway, France, Greece, Crete and the western
desert, they endured until America came in and joined in the
liberation of Western Europe.

Yet, at war's end in 1945, Britain was bled and bankrupt, and the
great cause of Churchill's life, preserving his beloved empire, was
lost. Because of the "Good War" Britain would never be great again.

And were the means used by the Allies, the terror bombing of Japanese
and German cities, killing hundreds of thousands of women and
children, perhaps millions, the marks of a "good war"?

Cohen contends that the evil of the Holocaust makes it a "good war."
But the destruction of the Jews of Europe was a consequence of this
war, not a cause. As for the Japanese atrocities like the Rape of
Nanking, they were indeed horrific.

But America's smashing of Japan led not to freedom for China, but four
years of civil war followed by 30 years of Maoist madness in which 30
million Chinese perished.

For America, the war was Pearl Harbor and Midway, Anzio and Iwo Jima,
Normandy and Bastogne, days of glory leading to triumph and the
American Century.

But for Joseph Stalin, it was also a good war. From his pact with
Adolf Hitler he annexed parts of Finland and Rumania, and three Baltic
republics. His armies stood in Berlin, Prague and Vienna; his agents
were vying for power in Rome and Paris; his ally was installed in
North Korea; his protege, Mao, was about to bring China into his
empire. But it was not so good a war for the inmates of Kolyma or the
Russian POWs returned to Stalin in Truman's Operation Keelhaul.

Is a war that replaces Hitler's domination of Europe with Stalin's and
Japan's rule in China with Mao's a "good war"? We had to stop the
killers, says Cohen. But who were the greater killers: Hitler or
Stalin, Tojo or Mao Zedong?

Can a war in which 50 million perished and the Christian continent was
destroyed, half of it enslaved, a war that has advanced the death of
Western civilization, be truly celebrated as a "good war"?
 
Hi,

Something in me wants to write a very long list of why of course the
war had to be fought, otherwise after Europe and Russia would have
been taken over America would have been next on the list, but I have a
feeling I am wasting my breath.

What would be a more interesting question is was what would have
happened if the European powers would have gone to war earlier, say in
the mid 1930's when Hitler took back the Rhineland which they had to
give up after the first world war, if Britain and France would have
acted then and gone to war, then they could have jointly beated
Germany before it had reached its military hayday. Then Russia
wouldn't have been invaded and transformed from a backward farming
country to the industrial superstate it had to turn into.

In fact it goes to show that you should stand upto regimes like the
Nazi's sooner rather later.

Oh hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Thanks
 
Everyone overlooks the greatest damage caused by WWII:

The effect military glory had on the world's most valuable resource:

American freedom.

As deTocqueville wrote, "military glory" is the crack cocaine of
republics, "far worse than great generals, high taxes and bad laws
combined."

This is why neocons are so addicted to their harebrained "shock this
shock that" notions.

They are certain something worthwhile can come from it.


Bret cahill
 
<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:04cea7f1-724f-4a05-90fe-d412b6d08e00@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Everyone overlooks the greatest damage caused by WWII:
>
> The effect military glory had on the world's most valuable resource:
>
> American freedom.
>
> As deTocqueville wrote, "military glory" is the crack cocaine of
> republics, "far worse than great generals, high taxes and bad laws
> combined."
>
> This is why neocons are so addicted to their harebrained "shock this
> shock that" notions.
>
> They are certain something worthwhile can come from it.


I think they secretly worship Machiavelli. Too bad they don't realize that
the philosophy will backfire on them just as it did on him.
 
English-Elephant wrote:
>
>
> Something in me wants to write a very long list of why of course the
> war had to be fought, otherwise after Europe and Russia would have
> been taken over America would have been next on the list, but I have a
> feeling I am wasting my breath.




I have a feeling the question is stupid in the first place, an
even bigger feeling there is no answer. Who the **** cares? is the
only answer I can come up with. And I mean it. The world is at
continuous war. I suppose it could be argued that every war ever
fought was worth it, or we wouldn't be here. Or we'd be here, but in
worse shape as a whole. But I'm sick of people making world war two
out to be any more important than any other ruckus anywhere else in
the world at any period of time. No one can prove that the world
would be any worse off today had the nazis "won" the war. And what of
the many wars prior to world war two that helped create the nazis in
the first place? I believe in absolute surrender. If everyone laid
down and let the nazis take over, sooner of later everything would
work itself out under the new regime. What a stupid question from
Sean Sannity, and what a bunch of stupid answers in return.

Tommy Joe (history sucks, and so do you)
 
Bozo wrote:
OllieNorth wrote:

>
>
> "I'd rather switch than fight"



> That's right, you would. At least you're shamelessly honest about it.
> But that's also because you can shove the burden of it onto others and
> still reap, accrue and ENJOY the benefits of said fighting. There's a
> word for that. You parasitic leach.



Who's going to decide which battles are worth fighting - you? I
wouldn't put a uniform on for any country, and anyone who does is an
idiot. True freedom does not need defending. People would flock to
true freedom, not try to topple it. People say freedom is worth
fighting for. True freedom does not need defending.

Tommy Joe (Just don't say anything bad about my mother, or we're
gonna get it on)
 
On Apr 9, 9:41 am, English-Elephant <mancm...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Something in me wants to write a very long list of why of course the
> war had to be fought, otherwise after Europe and Russia would have
> been taken over America would have been next on the list, but I have a
> feeling I am wasting my breath.
>
> What would be a more interesting question is was what would have
> happened if the European powers would have gone to war earlier, say in
> the mid 1930's when Hitler took back the Rhineland which they had to
> give up after the first world war, if Britain and France would have
> acted then and gone to war, then they could have jointly beated
> Germany before it had reached its military hayday.


Although there were those who were horrified by Hitler from the
beginning, he was popular in Germany (except with his victims) right
up until the war was lost. Outside Germany, he was viewed much the
way Pakistan's Musharraf is today: he was bad, but we could still
coexist with him. And he was not the ultimate symbol of evil till
AFTER the war.

The USA, by the way, did NOT enter the war formally until Dec. 7,
1941... and the winter of 1941-1942 was Hitler's high water mark.
Many of the now-legendary events of the European War had already
happened. Basically we waited until the Japanese attacked us before
joining the Allies. Ironically, it was the LEFT, not the right, who
wanted to join the war before Pearl Harbour: the Republicans and the
right wing of the Democratic Party stopped Roosevelt from openly
joining the fight against Hitler (although we did provide covert
support for the Allies.)
 
On Apr 10, 5:52 pm, Timothy Horrigan <Timothy.Horri...@alumni.usc.edu>
wrote:
> Ironically, it was the LEFT, not the right, who
> wanted to join the war before Pearl Harbour: the Republicans and the
> right wing of the Democratic Party stopped Roosevelt from openly
> joining the fight against Hitler (although we did provide covert
> support for the Allies.)


A couple of other points about Pearl Harbour.

#1. Hawaii was NOT a state at the time. It wasn't admitted to the
Union until 1960. In 1941, it was in fact a US colony which had been
an independent country less than 50 years earlier (within the lifetime
of many Hawaiian adults of the era.)

#2. The Pearl Harbour attack, darmatic though it was, was a sideshow.
The main event of December 1941 was the invasion of the Phillipines.
This campaign has been reduced in the text books into a cute little
anecdote where General MacArthur says "I shall return" at the end of a
Long March. The war in the Phillipines was, however, one of the
bloodiest military campaigns in American (not to mention Australian
and Japanese) history. And at the time, the Phillipines were (like
Hawaii) an American colony. The current Republic of the Phillipines
was created after the war.
 
In article
<35f3f9e5-cf93-4488-88fd-51e62b2b972a@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Timothy Horrigan <Timothy.Horrigan@alumni.usc.edu> wrote:

> On Apr 9, 9:41 am, English-Elephant <mancm...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Something in me wants to write a very long list of why of course the
> > war had to be fought, otherwise after Europe and Russia would have
> > been taken over America would have been next on the list, but I have a
> > feeling I am wasting my breath.
> >
> > What would be a more interesting question is was what would have
> > happened if the European powers would have gone to war earlier, say in
> > the mid 1930's when Hitler took back the Rhineland which they had to
> > give up after the first world war, if Britain and France would have
> > acted then and gone to war, then they could have jointly beated
> > Germany before it had reached its military hayday.

>
> Although there were those who were horrified by Hitler from the
> beginning, he was popular in Germany (except with his victims) right
> up until the war was lost. Outside Germany, he was viewed much the
> way Pakistan's Musharraf is today: he was bad, but we could still
> coexist with him. And he was not the ultimate symbol of evil till
> AFTER the war.
>
> The USA, by the way, did NOT enter the war formally until Dec. 7,
> 1941... and the winter of 1941-1942 was Hitler's high water mark.
> Many of the now-legendary events of the European War had already
> happened. Basically we waited until the Japanese attacked us before
> joining the Allies. Ironically, it was the LEFT, not the right, who
> wanted to join the war before Pearl Harbour: the Republicans and the
> right wing of the Democratic Party stopped Roosevelt from openly
> joining the fight against Hitler (although we did provide covert
> support for the Allies.)


It wasn't very covert. The Germans knew what was in those supply ships
we were sending.
 
On Apr 9, 12:28 pm, "Dennis Kemmerer" <d...@suespammers.org> wrote:
> <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:04cea7f1-724f-4a05-90fe-d412b6d08e00@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Everyone overlooks the greatest damage caused by WWII:

>
> > The effect military glory had on the world's most valuable resource:

>
> > American freedom.

>
> > As deTocqueville wrote, "military glory" is the crack cocaine of
> > republics, "far worse than great generals, high taxes and bad laws
> > combined."

>
> > This is why neocons are so addicted to their harebrained "shock this
> > shock that" notions.

>
> > They are certain something worthwhile can come from it.

>
> I think they secretly worship Machiavelli. Too bad they don't realize that
> the philosophy will backfire on them just as it did on him.


You mean philosophy like:

"Now in a well-ordered republic it should never be necessary to resort
to extra-constitutional measures; for although they may for the time
be beneficial, yet the precident is pernicious, for if the practice is
once established of disregarding the laws for good objects, they will
in a little while be disregarded under that pretext for evil
purposes." -- Machiavelli, Discources, Chapter XXXIV

Brandon
 
zzbunker@netscape.net wrote:

> Nobody can ever prove that the WORLD is better off
> after an idiot Political Party wins a war.
> Which is still obviously the reason that the idiot Press and WWII
> buffs
> can't understand TODAY's wars.
> Which concern nuclear reactors, fiber optics, computers, artificial
> intelligence,
> Quantum Encryption, lasers. masers, tasers, GPS, satellites,
> robots,
> holograms, helicopters, STOL, solar energy, wind energy,
> and cruise missiles, rather than Berlin.



Thank you, looks like were on the same page, kind of. Any war in
which you have time to put on a uniform is obviously orchestrated.
That's why they get young people. That's why they have those stupid
election "debates" on college campuses. The debates are an
advertisement for the voting process. They don't care who wins, as
long as it's one of them. I was always opposed to the military draft,
but am not beginning to think the all volunteer group is worse. They
come back from the war all messed up in the head, and everyone thinks
it's because of the war. I say they were messed up before they
joined. To hell with them.

Tommy Joe
 
In article <15e4a99f-7126-4fef-930a-ce2ff40912c6
@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, joss@bellsouth.net says...
>
>
> zzbunker@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > Nobody can ever prove that the WORLD is better off
> > after an idiot Political Party wins a war.
> > Which is still obviously the reason that the idiot Press and WWII
> > buffs
> > can't understand TODAY's wars.
> > Which concern nuclear reactors, fiber optics, computers, artificial
> > intelligence,
> > Quantum Encryption, lasers. masers, tasers, GPS, satellites,
> > robots,
> > holograms, helicopters, STOL, solar energy, wind energy,
> > and cruise missiles, rather than Berlin.

>
>
> Thank you, looks like were on the same page, kind of. Any war in
> which you have time to put on a uniform is obviously orchestrated.
> That's why they get young people. That's why they have those stupid
> election "debates" on college campuses. The debates are an
> advertisement for the voting process. They don't care who wins, as
> long as it's one of them. I was always opposed to the military draft,
> but am not beginning to think the all volunteer group is worse. They
> come back from the war all messed up in the head, and everyone thinks
> it's because of the war. I say they were messed up before they
> joined. To hell with them.
>
> Tommy Joe



Funny how some of us think you are messed up in the head.
 
In article
<3c8d4a28-f4e0-4dca-842b-ff8fba049a7d@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
English-Elephant <mancmanc@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Something in me wants to write a very long list of why of course the
> war had to be fought, otherwise after Europe and Russia would have
> been taken over...



except Russia wouldn't have been. Germany and Russia would have fought
to a bloody stalemate (they pretty much did anywar), saving us 50 years
of cold war.
 
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