What the Mega-Mosque at Ground Zero Means to Worldwide Islam

[jokersarewild]

This post should be fun to respond to...

I really did not fully think you meant all that uneducated garbage until I saw this:

And I'll be perfectly honest: 9/11 didn't really do squat for me. I woke up, saw what was happening, and went to school. It was explained to us. And you know what? I recognized it for what it was: A terrorist attack. But did it affect my life? Not particularly. It is in a state on the opposite side of the country. I knew nobody in those buildings. And I didn't even know those building existed until that day. So I went on with my life.

So you felt nothing?

Not even pity for your fellow Americans and their families? You seem ready to show compasion and understanding to terrorists, you even claim lik eso many other radical Socialists that 9/11 was caused by America, you blame America instead of those who actually did the killing.

You're right, I felt no human emotions whatsoever. Interesting fact: I actually had more to that part of my post where I went on to talk about feeling emotions and such, but I shortened it to that because I'm just a **** like that. Or maybe it's because I was talking more about the "fear" part of it. They hadn't attacked me, or anybody I knew, so I had no reason to fear them. And because of that, I didn't immediately lump all Muslims into "terrorists". Also, I blame our foreign policy. We trained Bin Laden. Then when he got ****** off, that came back to bite us in the ***. Also, treating other countries like sh t tends to get people in them ****** off.

And in that you have great company, You, Obama, Harry Reid, Pelosi, pretty much every progressive in America sees America as "bad" or at fault for everything and you constantly want to only point out what you see as bad while never admitting the much larger good that America does in the world.

Your inability to judge an individual person without having to put them in a predefined group for you to then lash out against is astounding. "That Tom guy is an **** hole. You know how else are ********? The KKK. I bet he's one of them." Guess what, Times? I'm not a "progressive". I'm just an intelligent human being who loves my country, but is intelligent enough to realize when we do something wrong.

You love America the same way a 4 year old loves his mom. Nobody can speak negatively of her, or else they're bad, and evil. Mommy is the best!

I love America the same way an adult loves their parents. I realize that they have flaws, but I accept that and love them anyway.

So American actions forced these terrorists to attack us Joker? Really?

Are you saying we gave them no motive whatsoever?

At the time of the attack, America was providing around 70% of the food that was "given for free" to Afganistan, and we helped Afganistan fight off invasion from Russia, hundreds of millions of Afganistan people were alive and eating well because America did not look away, because America did get involved. How about those saved lives Joker?

I have a question for you, Times. Did Afghanistan declare war on us? Seriously? Do you believe this? If so, you need you some more book lernin'. As it turns out, Afghanistan didn't attack us. Terrorists did. If a group of Russian terrorists attacks us, does that mean that Russia declared war on us? No, it doesn't. It means a group of morons decided we would be a good target.

But you don't know about that fact now do you Joker? Or is it better to say you don't "want" to know about that, all your interested in is looking to America's faults and justifying the actions of terrorists because that is the progressive way of tearing down America so it can be rebuilt in the Socialist way?

Times, meet Strawman. He'll be your argument for the rest of your life.

So trying to identify faults to fix them is bad? What universe are you from? What sort of crazy world do you live in where you always pretend everything's OK? I want a plane ticket to there. I'll give you the money up front.

Also, when did I justify terrorist actions? When I said they had a reason for attacking us? Because stating that we might've done something to **** them off sure makes me seem like I said "Well, they were perfectly within their right to take the lives of several thousand people." ****, the two are almost the same sentence. Wow, I'm a horrible person. Let me go kill myself with the sharp point of LOGIC.

Well guess what, there are still a few proud Americans alive and willing to fight against the Progressives like you and Obama. We can admit we have made mistakes but still see the greater degree of good that America has done and how most of the free world is only free today because of America. All of Europe and most of Asia would now be divided in two groups if not for America, so forgive me and the majority of Americans who choose to remember our good deeds over our mistakes.

So you now admit that America has problems? YOU PROGRESSIVE! gasp

So, the division thing...are you talking about WWII and how us entering at the last second helped? I won't deny that. But saying the free world is "only free today because of us" makes it sound like they would've gladly ******'d themselves for the Germans if only we hadn't come along and done all of the fighting for them. Not quite the case.

Now, aside from your religion/America bashing we still get back to the main points:

Religion bashing? What?

America bashing? You already admitted we have faults, hypocrite. Don't go back on that now.

1- America was attacked on 9/11 by Muslim believers and only an idiot would believe they did not have help in the Muslim comunities to stay hidden and train for this attack. The radical elements of Islam are not that far seperated from the mainstream elements of Islam.

I'm sure there were Islamic communities helping them. And I'm sure those communities were being told that America would try to attack them or kill them or destroy Islam if they didn't help. Or they were coerced in other ways. And as it turns out, if the part about radical and mainstream Islam being quite close, why aren't the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world strapping bombs to themselves or flying planes into buildings? Or doing a whole lot of terrorizing for that matter?

2- Even Muzzammil Hassan, the rich Muslim that founded Bridges TV to show Muslims in a "positive light" and was fully imersed in Western society still felt compelled to behead his wife ,Aasiya Z. Hassan, because she dared to leave him and "honor" demanded she die by his hand.

I'll not defend his actions. If you did research though, you'd discover that's not Islamic law. That was just him going nuts.

Prior to this event, Muzzammil Hassan was considered the very definition of moderate Muslim, funny how fast a moderate can transform into a radical.......

No, he went nuts. He didn't go religious.

3- This is a Mosque, lots of other fancy stuff too, but this is a house of worship, the house has many rooms, but the number of rooms does not change it's purpose. Trying to divert attention away from this fact proves your not interested in looking at reality, and instead your trying to remake reality into an image that might be accepted by the masses.......typical progressive tactic but again, those of us who know better can easily see past your intentional refusal to admit the facts and identify your biased reasons to try and exclude the fact that this is a Mosque.

My biased reasons? What would those reasons be? My guess is that you'll put more words in my mouth about how I'm a progressive, a Socialist, and hate America. Let me guess, I called it, didn't I?

Also, how am I trying to remake an image of anything? I'm telling you it's a community center (which, you know, it is. It just has a house of worship in it). You keep saying "NO, IT'S A MOSQUE!" A mosque with athletic facilities? So they can shoot hoops toward Mecca during prayer? Not likely.

4- This is not just an issue for the people of New York. The billions of tax dollars spent to respond to 9/11 was money all Americans paid their tax money for. All the mess that followed to include the stock market crash that cost me over $160,000 in one week made that event a purely American event just like the attack on Pearl Harbor was not just a bad thing that happend at the "Gibraltar of the Pacific".

9/11 is an American issue. What you're saying is that these people can't build a building here. Which, you know, since you don't live in New York, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS IN. I'm sorry 9/11 damaged you financially. And yes, tax dollars go toward such things. Quite frankly, I'm ****** off that my tax dollars went to our "War in Iraq", who had nothing to do with this.

Anyway, get this: 19 of the 1,600,000,000 people who are Muslim perpetrated 9/11. And you're seriously saying all of those 1,600,000,000 people are evil? Because of the actions of less than 20 of them? Does the illogical viewpoint there completely escape you?

The Onion did an article on you, Times: http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

This is about Americans and how they feel about the failures of Muslims to gain control over their radical elements. If people like this imam would publically denounce all terroirsts to include Hamas that he says is not a terrorist group, and to stop making excuses for these terrorists in how he said they were only trying to be heard, then I could support this as some kind of community center and they were trying to bring people together.

Bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit. You would NEVER support this as a community center. Trying to offer that up was cute, but your arguments have all been about how it's a mosque and how it supports terrorists (somehow). Just because the Imam has a wider view of the world than you do doesn't mean he's a bad person.

Your "quote" about 'Hamas that he says is not a terrorist group':

"I'm not a politician," replied Rauf. "I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question. ... I'm a bridge builder. I define my work as a bridge builder. I do not want to be placed, nor do I accept to be placed in a position of being put in a position where I am the target of one side or another."

Klein pointed out Hamas attacks have targeted civilians and asked Rauf again whether that qualifies to define Hamas as terrorists.

Rauf stated: "The targeting of civilians is wrong. It is a sin in our religion. Whoever does it, targeting civilians is wrong. I am a supporter of the state of Israel. ... I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary."

Hm. Never said they weren't terrorists. He didn't want to call them terrorists. Which, since he travels to the area every once in awhile, not making enemies of a group who attacks civilians would be a good idea, right?

5- You still miss the point of Eminent Domain, most likely because you have never been involved in any real reality issues as I have but if a couple guys in City Hall can take away a piece of land to give it to Donald Trump to build a huge Hotel, certainly it would be easy to offer a better use of that power to do as the people want. Almost all Americans are now against this Mosque being built on ground zero (again, you claiming it is not does not make it true, us Americans who actually care about America and feel connected to it can make that decision) so following that desire is easily defendable in a court of law.

Actually, if you had said "13 story community center with a Muslim prayer area", I sincerely doubt people would be in such an uproar. But because you can misrepresent things to people through the media, hey, most people think it's a mosque. You know, when it isn't. It's still not on Ground Zero, by the way. Just thought I'd mention that. Since you keep saying it, even though it's not true.

Also, I think you meant "realty", not "reality". I'm not trying to correct you, I'm making the assumption that you meant I'd never had property deals in my life (true), not that I'd never had any situations at all in my life. Assuming that, you'd be right. However, again, Mayor Bloomberg wants the community center there. So I doubt anybody in City Hall will really be like "HEY LET'S GET OUR EMINENT DOMAIN GUN OUT AND START SHOOTING AT IT!"

I used the stripper example for a reason, there are thousands of case law examples all supporting the right of comunities to block buildings like strip clubs for community moral reasons, to include about 25 cases in New York that made it to the State supreme court so the City can easily block this and win, it would be a waste of money for the Muslim extremists to try and fight it to be honest.

So, (even if this was a mosque), it's immoral to have a place of worship here? You're comparing a Muslim house of worship to a strip club? Really? Go to any Christian church. Tell them that they're just as immoral as a strip club. See where that gets you.

Oh, and hey, what about the Muslim non-extremists? Like, you know, the Imam? I bet he could fight it and win.

Do Americans have the right to set the moral possitions of their Country or not? Do Americans have the right to reject a monument to the terrorists of 9/11? Do Americans have the right to reject radical and violent groups who hide behind laws that they don't themselves respect or share in their own circles?

You keep acting like this is some statue depicting Mohammed ******* on our flag while ******** on the Twin Towers. It really isn't.

Also, not all Muslims are violent. Not sure HOW MANY TIMES I have to tell you this. The Onion article sums you up so beautifully it almost brings me to tears.

Should Americans be forced to conform to the beliefs of progressives who see America as the instigator of 9/11? Should all Americans give up their right to their beliefs just because a few progressives think we are all just stupid and racists?

Yes, I know I woke up and thought "People who aren't me are stupid. And racist." Seriously, this "putting words in my mouth" thing is getting ridiculous. And hey, guess what, some Americans agree with me. Others don't. They're beliefs for a reason. I never said anybody has to conform to mine. I just want you to use some facts as a basis of your argument instead of beliefs.

Sorry Joker, completely converting all Americans into sniveling progressive cowards is not going to be that easy.........

So one moment "we're" launching an offensive on American minds and such, then we're sniveling cowards? Now I'm confused. I can't tell if I'm an evil presence who is actively doing something, or crying in a corner. I'd recommend you determine this for me, as you've been quite content putting words in my mouth this whole time.

And yes, I'm trying to get you to look at facts and actually do research. How horrible of me.

 

[jokersarewild]

My link

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

DUDE! I had just read that before I had posted my response to Times. It just seemed to fit him so perfectly.

 

[jokersarewild]

JAW is an ignorant, doesn't know his head from his ***, live in his mother's basement, sheltered, self serving, gen Y, infant, who has yet to have real life, or real responsibility affect him.

No offense.

Your commentary on this subject is mindblowing. It's this kind of discourse that makes me glad we live in this country, so when I'm on my period, I can also pull random words out of my ******, form them into a sentence, and sound old and self-righteous. *** Bless America.

 

[eddo]

Nuthin' to say eddo? .. typical.. close your eyes..

still trying to pick through that enormous pile of horse dung that you posted trying to find where George W is any kind of religious leader, or where a religious leader told groups of Americans to go to kill anyone. Just not seeing it. Maybe my eyes are closed, could be. Or maybe I am seeing things for what they really are.

Gotta hand it to you wez, though, you are simply amazing at posting complete and utter irrelevance, and posting so much of it that you think it makes a point- but in all reality all it does is show how much of a whack-job you really are.

I'll keep looking, and let ya know if I find what I asked you for...

 

[wez]

...or where a religious leader told groups of Americans to go to kill anyone.

Bothwell documents that there wasn't a war the U.S. was involved in that Rev. Graham couldn't bless. In fact, he reveals that during the horrific Vietnam conflict, (1959-75), he had urged the then-President, Richard M. Nixon, to bomb North Vietnam! In a 13-page letter, that Rev. Graham had forwarded to the White House in April, 1969, it was stated: "There are tens of thousands of North Vietnamese defectors to bomb and invade the North. Why should all the fighting be in the South?...Especially let them bomb the dikes which could over night destroy the economy of North Vietnam." Mr. Bothwell underscored that such a military action against the dikes, a huge complex of earthworks, would probably "kill a million people and wipe out an already poor nation's agricultural system" He added that the advice in Graham's transmittal "fell on receptive ears. Not longer after, Nixon moved the air war north and west."

Derrrrr.. duhhhhhh.. my name is eddo.. you're a wack job who hates America..

 

[jokersarewild]

http://nymag.com/news/features/67635/

Awesome story about the whole thing. 6 pages long, so it's a little bit of a read, but I quite enjoyed it.

 

[timesjoke]

It made me delete some of the quotes as being too many but I am sure you can figure out what I was responding too.

You're right, I felt no human emotions whatsoever. Interesting fact: I actually had more to that part of my post where I went on to talk about feeling emotions and such, but I shortened it to that because I'm just a **** like that. Or maybe it's because I was talking more about the "fear" part of it. They hadn't attacked me, or anybody I knew, so I had no reason to fear them. And because of that, I didn't immediately lump all Muslims into "terrorists".

So because "YOU" were not directly harmed, your feel therew is nothing to be concerned about?

By the way, where did I ever say "ALL" muslims are terrorists?

What I did say is "ALL" muslims are not standing against terrorists who are using their religion to do some very bad things and until all these "good muslims" stand together against the radicals, this Islam problem will never stop.

So was saving all of Europe and the middle east from being taken over one of those things that ****** them off at us? Whas providing 70% of their food for free one of the things that ****** them off? Bin Laden would have died during the invasion from Russia if not for us.

Here is the biggest problem with progressives, you want to believe a terrorist like Bin Laden is honest at his core, that everything he said as to "why" he did what he did was true but it was all lies Joker, he told you and the world what would gain him the most support and guess what, here you are defending his actions so his lies worked, you swallowed the lies and are seeing his actions as justified or at least he got you guys to show him empathy, that man killed thousands of innocent lives to include the mnost vulnerable in society, our children and you thing someone who "intentionally" targets children should be trusted at his word?

And those same parents gave you life, with the exception of pure abuse there is little a parent could have done to you for you to hate them and this is my point of how your exclusively ugly and negative about America.

You are a progressive, not just based on this conversation but based on everything you have posted your clearly a progressive but the real queation is why do progressives/liberals act like calling them what they are is an insult to them? You can call me a conservative all day long and not one time will I think that title is negative because while I am not 100% conservative in all things (I would like to see higher education for 4 years be free while eliminating most other forms of welfare as an examome), conservative is still very close and I feel honored to be called that.

Are you saying we gave them no motive whatsoever?

After saving all their lives Joker? All of the Middle East would now be destroyed and remade if not for America, specifically Afganistan and Bin Laden would not exist if not for America, you have to get past this need to believe those who love to kill babies of the "infidels" are trustworthy.

Do you want to know the "real" reason Bin Laden turned radical muslim? For power. Check out some of his interviews and see a man in love with his own power. Everything he said was simply excuses to exercise that power. Many sick people thrive on the fear they know they instill in other humans, Bin Laden became one of those people.

Nice dodge there Joker. Where did I ever say they declared war on us? While all of Afganistan did not declare war, they provided the infrastructure and political base that allowed it to happen. The same is true for all radical Islam, while only a few commit the attacks, the support from the general population is needed to provide recruitment and other support like supplies and money for them to succeed.

Where did I ever say trying to fix problems is bad?

America is not perfect, but our good parts far, far, far outshines the mistakes and if we get stuck in only looking at the faults as you and your fellow progressives love to do, then we will end up not doing the good for fear of not wanting to make a mistake.

We can't live in a bubble of fear Joker.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."




By refusing to completely place the blame on the Muslims who did the attack, by accepting excuses and showing them unflinching understanding you give them the support they crave, your the guy they are trying to reach, and it seems like they have succeeded.

My point about America is while we have made a few mistakes, we more than balance those mistakes with much, much greater good where without that good the world would be a much worse place to live. What good have the terrorists done to try and offset their bad? Did you see radical muslims defend Germany from invasion? Did Muslims liberate France? Look back at all the good America has done and tell me again that any group should feel justified in trying to stop the good works of America.

So you now admit that America has problems? YOU PROGRESSIVE! gasp

So, the division thing...are you talking about WWII and how us entering at the last second helped? I won't deny that. But saying the free world is "only free today because of us" makes it sound like they would've gladly ******'d themselves for the Germans if only we hadn't come along and done all of the fighting for them. Not quite the case.

I admit there have been a few mistakes, but I don't condemn all of America for those mistakes and I allow myself to see the greater good.

Where did I say they would have ******'d themselves? Without our help they would have failed, but that does not mean they were not giving it their all.

Religion bashing? What?
America bashing? You already admitted we have faults, hypocrite. Don't go back on that now.

But only you are trying to say America deserved to be attacked, if we do as you progressives like to do and believe a terrorist would never lie, then why not use your same example and ask why all of America deserves to be punished for the actions only a couple politicians ordered? If their problem is with specific people, why not restrict their attacks on those targets?

Because they can't? That is enough justification to attack anyone else they can reach?

Well if you buy that arguement then why not do the same back at them? If you think that is reasonable tactics for terrorists to follow would you support America striking at anyone we can reach while the terrorists are hiding?

I'm sure there were Islamic communities helping them. And I'm sure those communities were being told that America would try to attack them or kill them or destroy Islam if they didn't help. Or they were coerced in other ways. And as it turns out, if the part about radical and mainstream Islam being quite close, why aren't the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world strapping bombs to themselves or flying planes into buildings? Or doing a whole lot of terrorizing for that matter?

They don't need all 1.6 billion to attack, they just need them to not get in the way and provide a little support, and you just admitted that there were Islamic communities helping them so there you go.

‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

I'll not defend his actions. If you did research though, you'd discover that's not Islamic law. That was just him going nuts.

Honor killings are very much a part of Islamic culture and religion, I can provide a few things from the Quran if you need me to.

He certainly did 'go nuts' and as he went nuts he followed a long trend of honor killings in the Islamic history.

No, he went nuts. He didn't go religious.

]

He was already religious Joker, that was his possition all along to show Islam in a better light so his belief structure was well established, and his reaction to his wife leaving him was also nothing new to Islam.

My biased reasons? What would those reasons be? My guess is that you'll put more words in my mouth about how I'm a progressive, a Socialist, and hate America. Let me guess, I called it, didn't I?

Also, how am I trying to remake an image of anything? I'm telling you it's a community center (which, you know, it is. It just has a house of worship in it). You keep saying "NO, IT'S A MOSQUE!" A mosque with athletic facilities? So they can shoot hoops toward Mecca during prayer? Not likely.

You paint yourself as a progressive by your progressive possitions and attitudes you show everyone, just like I show my conservative side.

Fine, if this is not a Mosque, then simply have the developer agree to not include the mosque that you claim is not important and nobody will have anything to complain about.....right?

Of course it is a mosque, hey, did you know women are not allowed to use a mosque the same way as men?

9/11 is an American issue. What you're saying is that these people can't build a building here. Which, you know, since you don't live in New York, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS IN. I'm sorry 9/11 damaged you financially. And yes, tax dollars go toward such things. Quite frankly, I'm ****** off that my tax dollars went to our "War in Iraq", who had nothing to do with this.

Again, any attack on American soil is the concern of all Americans, if you can't understand that your need to search your soul a little deeper.

I am not saying they should not build a building, I am saying a mosque is insensitive and intentionally hurtful.

Anyway, get this: 19 of the 1,600,000,000 people who are Muslim perpetrated 9/11. And you're seriously saying all of those 1,600,000,000 people are evil? Because of the actions of less than 20 of them? Does the illogical viewpoint there completely escape you?

A lot more than 20 Muslims have been involved in terrorist attacks and you already admitted the Muslim communities do show these same terrorists support even if they are not directly attacking anyone.

My point is they need to police their own radicals better, to at least show a unified voice against the radical elements.

The Onion did an article on you, Times: http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

Personal attacks on me will not get you very far, but who is not trying to lump dissent into one package?

Bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit. You would NEVER support this as a community center. Trying to offer that up was cute, but your arguments have all been about how it's a mosque and how it supports terrorists (somehow). Just because the Imam has a wider view of the world than you do doesn't mean he's a bad person.

Your "quote" about 'Hamas that he says is not a terrorist group':

"I'm not a politician," replied Rauf. "I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question. ... I'm a bridge builder. I define my work as a bridge builder. I do not want to be placed, nor do I accept to be placed in a position of being put in a position where I am the target of one side or another."

Klein pointed out Hamas attacks have targeted civilians and asked Rauf again whether that qualifies to define Hamas as terrorists.

Rauf stated: "The targeting of civilians is wrong. It is a sin in our religion. Whoever does it, targeting civilians is wrong. I am a supporter of the state of Israel. ... I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary."

Hm. Never said they weren't terrorists. He didn't want to call them terrorists. Which, since he travels to the area every once in awhile, not making enemies of a group who attacks civilians would be a good idea, right?

And that is why terrorists still exist in such large numbers, even those who are considered "moderate" or "good" Muslims refuse to take sides against the terrorists ans until that day comes, we will never find a solution to ending the violence.

We need the Muslim leaders to show a united front against terrorists and as long as they are like this guy, then they are all part of the problem.

This imam does not have a 'wider view', he is simply making up excuses so he does not have to go against what he really supports.

Actually, if you had said "13 story community center with a Muslim prayer area", I sincerely doubt people would be in such an uproar. But because you can misrepresent things to people through the media, hey, most people think it's a mosque. You know, when it isn't. It's still not on Ground Zero, by the way. Just thought I'd mention that. Since you keep saying it, even though it's not true.

So as I said, if the Mosque is not the central reason for the structure, simply exclude it from the construction and all is fixed....right?

But I don't think they will do that, sure the building has other rooms and functions but it is my belief that is all a smoke screen for the building's true purpose as a monument to the successful terrorist attack on New York and America.

Also, I think you meant "realty", not "reality". I'm not trying to correct you, I'm making the assumption that you meant I'd never had property deals in my life (true), not that I'd never had any situations at all in my life. Assuming that, you'd be right. However, again, Mayor Bloomberg wants the community center there. So I doubt anybody in City Hall will really be like "HEY LET'S GET OUR EMINENT DOMAIN GUN OUT AND START SHOOTING AT IT!"

And that is my point, why should one or two man be allowed to take away land to give to another man like Donald Trump to build a hotel but millions of people are ignored when their voice is clear thay do not want the Islamic terrorist monument to be built?

Do these officials represent the people or themselves?

So, (even if this was a mosque), it's immoral to have a place of worship here? You're comparing a Muslim house of worship to a strip club? Really? Go to any Christian church. Tell them that they're just as immoral as a strip club. See where that gets you.

This is an example of morals, the decision to place a terrorist monument to 9/11 is insensitive and hurtful.

I gave you a few other examples of similar 'insensitive monuments' such as building a monument to the Enola Gay in Japan, no matter where you put it, it would be an insult.

Oh, and hey, what about the Muslim non-extremists? Like, you know, the Imam? I bet he could fight it and win.

So saying terrorists are just getting attention the only way they can and refusing to condemn terrorist attacks and terrorist groups is a Muslim that is not an extremist? What does a Muslim have to do in your eyes to be part of the problem?

You already admitted that some Muslim communities show support to the terrorists, well this guy is also showing them support and guess what, where do you think the money for the Mosque is comming from? He refuses to say where it is comming from so he clearly has something to hide.

You keep acting like this is some statue depicting Mohammed ******* on our flag while ******** on the Twin Towers. It really isn't.

Also, not all Muslims are violent. Not sure HOW MANY TIMES I have to tell you this. The Onion article sums you up so beautifully it almost brings me to tears.

Where did I ever say all Muslims are violent? But even you admitted the Muslim communities support the violents by protecting and supporting the terrorists. We have also demonstrated the Muslim leaders show support of terrorists.

As I said before, If the Muslim communities do not reject the violence and those who commit it, it will never stop.

Yes, I know I woke up and thought "People who aren't me are stupid. And racist." Seriously, this "putting words in my mouth" thing is getting ridiculous. And hey, guess what, some Americans agree with me. Others don't. They're beliefs for a reason. I never said anybody has to conform to mine. I just want you to use some facts as a basis of your argument instead of beliefs.

Facts?

Everything I have said is facts, like the way this imam is showing support to terrorists, you on the other hand are not offering facts, your offering excuses for terrorists and this imam who refuses to condemn terrorists.

You are saying America brought the attack on itself and deserved it, your not offering facts, your offering the standard progressive montra to always blams America for everything.

So one moment "we're" launching an offensive on American minds and such, then we're sniveling cowards? Now I'm confused. I can't tell if I'm an evil presence who is actively doing something, or crying in a corner. I'd recommend you determine this for me, as you've been quite content putting words in my mouth this whole time.

And yes, I'm trying to get you to look at facts and actually do research. How horrible of me.

The only thing you have offered as a "fact" from your prospective is that this building is not a place of worship.

I do not agree, in my opinion the inclusion of the Mosque is very much part of the building and part of the discussion. Sure there will be other facilities in the building but you can't make any claims as to what percentage of it's usage will be for other things than the Mosque.

Tell me this Joker, if all the other segments of the building are never used and the only usage is for the religious services each day, several times a day, is it still a community center or is it a Mosque?

I can hold religious services in a field, just like I can exercise in that same field. So how do we define the field?

I am making an informed decision that being as the muslims have to play many times a day, that the mosque will get greater usage on a pecentage basis than the rest of the building so that will make that space a Mosque.

 

[jokersarewild]

I'm not going to respond to each of your points. I'm getting tired of you trying to paint me as a hater of America, a progressive, a Socialist, etc, etc. There's no point. Your whole argument is based on assumptions. You assume I hate our country. You assume I'm a coward. You assume a lot of things. You keep lumping me into groups just to attack me, and it's aggravating. Everything I've read in your post I've either countered in prior posts, is presumptive, or is just some random attack. Especially where you dance around what I say to pull something out of nowhere to accuse me of. One point I will respond to: When you said that "An attack on American soil is an American problem, blah blah blah", then proceed to tell me I need to search my soul. Look at the quote you're responding to. Not only did what you said mean you didn't read it, you didn't even try. You saw "9/11" and "you have NO BUSINESS IN" and decided to put the two together, ignoring the rest. That's all of your retorts. All of your posts are the same stuff. You keep using Strawman tactics, saying I am something I've not said, or putting words in my mouth, and your magical use of logic fallacies is blatant. Everyone can see that. I'm glad you think you're good at arguing points. I'm just done trying to defend myself from someone who keeps giving me opinions I don't have, attacking them, and then asserting that I'm a bad person. I leave you with 3 points:

1. I'm for the Community Center. It's not a mosque. It has a prayer area inside of it. Whether you believe that or not is your problem, not mine.

2. I don't hate America. I like our country. I think there's room for improvement. I think some of our policies are what gave terrorists fuel to attack us in the first place (like a "wow those guys are *****" type rhetoric they could use to recruit). To most of the world we seem self-righteous. And Iraq never attacked us, so we wasted tax money over there.

3. I'm not a progressive, a socialist, or any other group you seem to lump me in so you can assume my values are likewise.

I'm done with this argument.

 

[wez]

I am making an informed decision that being as the muslims have to play many times a day, that the mosque will get greater usage on a pecentage basis than the rest of the building so that will make that space a Mosque.

So what? Got a problem with Muslim Americans exercising their constitutional right to build a mosque? You think all Muslim Americans are happy the trade center was brought down and want to celebrate and build a monument of the deed to rub it in your face?

Too bad.. even if they are happy about it and only want to build it as a monument to rub in your face, it is their constitutional right. They can think and feel and do whatever the **** they want.. Wasn't it you that said.. "the only color that matters is green"? .. cept when it's for sumpin' you don't like, eh?

Got a problem with the constitution? You seem to think that America is about majority/mob rules.. when in fact, the constitution was drafted to prevent just that.. specially when it came to matters of religion..

You aint no American.. you're a stinkin' commie control freak who hates everything this country was founded on.. yeah.. you love freedom.. but only for yourself.. hard for anyone close to you to have their own opinion and identity, eh? .. you love nothing more than to tell people who they are, how they feel, what to think, what to do, and why you're superior, or else...

.. and you have no problem enlisting the heavy hand of the government or anyone else to validate it for you, including imaginary "friends".. all whilst you judge, label, and look down on others as you constantly accuse them of being you..

Sick *******..

 

[wez]

Hey eddo, did ya see where a religious leader was telling Americans to kill people? Do ya need it posted a 3rd time?

 

[timesjoke]

I'm not going to respond to each of your points. I'm getting tired of you trying to paint me as a hater of America, a progressive, a Socialist, etc, etc.

I don't paint you as anything, you prove yourself to be exactly what you are by your own words and actions. You said yourself that you did not feel anything at all after you found out about the 9/11 attacks because it did not hurt you personally:

And I'll be perfectly honest: 9/11 didn't really do squat for me. I woke up, saw what was happening, and went to school. It was explained to us. And you know what? I recognized it for what it was: A terrorist attack. But did it affect my life? Not particularly. It is in a state on the opposite side of the country. I knew nobody in those buildings. And I didn't even know those building existed until that day. So I went on with my life.

There's no point. Your whole argument is based on assumptions. You assume I hate our country. You assume I'm a coward. You assume a lot of things. You keep lumping me into groups just to attack me, and it's aggravating. Everything I've read in your post I've either countered in prior posts, is presumptive, or is just some random attack.

Random attacks like the ones you make at me? Did I ever try to point you to an onion article in the attempt to be insulting to you kid?

You have tried to counter my comments but everything you try to say is based on your political twist to offer excuses. I use facts, like the imam's own words where he supports terrorists activities and refuses to take a solid stand against terrorist groups and you only make excuses for why supposed good Muslims don't fight against their terrorist elements.....

Everything in your posts is progressive political correct garbage designed not to be logical but instead designed to try and make those who don't agree with your political stands look bad by telling in some cases complete lies and attacking the messenger while diverting attention away from the message.

This imama did say that terrorists are just trying to get attention, this imam does refuse to identify terrorist groups as terrorists, this imam refuses to even discuss where the finding is comming from, now what does he have to hide on that Joker?

Especially where you dance around what I say to pull something out of nowhere to accuse me of. One point I will respond to: When you said that "An attack on American soil is an American problem, blah blah blah", then proceed to tell me I need to search my soul. Look at the quote you're responding to. Not only did what you said mean you didn't read it, you didn't even try. You saw "9/11" and "you have NO BUSINESS IN" and decided to put the two together, ignoring the rest. That's all of your retorts.

Didn't read it?

You need to go back and reread what you said, I may not like what someone says but I take the time to read everything at least two times before I respond to it, the only poster here I rarely read their comments is Wez, because I know he does not really mean what he says, his posts are 100% designed to try and pick fights.

You said I had no right to be concerned about this terrorist monument because I did not live in New York, my reply to your claim I should keep my nose out of it was that any attack on American soil should be very personal and the business of every American who cares about their Country.

Just because you don't care, that does not mean the rest of Americans can't care.

All of your posts are the same stuff. You keep using Strawman tactics, saying I am something I've not said, or putting words in my mouth, and your magical use of logic fallacies is blatant. Everyone can see that. I'm glad you think you're good at arguing points. I'm just done trying to defend myself from someone who keeps giving me opinions I don't have, attacking them, and then asserting that I'm a bad person. I leave you with 3 points:

Putting words in your mouth?

Like when you claimed I said "all" muslims were terrorists?

You put words in my mouth at least 20 times in this thread and yet you claim I did that to you?

I used your own words Joker, "YOU" said you did not feel anything from the 9/11 attacks, not me, all I did was comment on your own words. You even said Americans should not be allowed to comment on the Mosque if we did not live in New York, obviously you don't see America as a single entitity with a unified "family" concept. You and your family was not hurt so you don't care that this monument to the terrorist attack is built.......

1. I'm for the Community Center. It's not a mosque. It has a prayer area inside of it. Whether you believe that or not is your problem, not mine.

Muslims do not seperate faith/politics/every day life. Everything in their life "IS" their faith, so even if they are calling it a Muslim community center, that still means it is a Mosque.

But as I already pointed out, the greatest usage of this space will be specifically for Islam worship, so that does in fact make it a Mosque on our standards of usage as well.

If you choose to be self blinded by your progressive need to be politically correct over reality, fine, but don't expect everyone in America to also blind themselves to help you with your progressive agenda.

2. I don't hate America. I like our country. I think there's room for improvement. I think some of our policies are what gave terrorists fuel to attack us in the first place (like a "wow those guys are *****" type rhetoric they could use to recruit). To most of the world we seem self-righteous. And Iraq never attacked us, so we wasted tax money over there.

Like?

Really? You gonna devote that much emotion to your Country Joker?

I Love America Joker, this is my home and I will gladly defend it with my life. I have served in the military and my son is currently serving in the Marines because of his love for America and sense of duty to the place that made freedom possible for the entire world. If freedom exists in this world, America made that possible, but you only "LIKE" this Country?

Yes, a few mistakes have been made but those mistakes are extrememly tiny and insignificant when set beside our victories. You refuse to see those victories because you need excuses to put America down and find excuses to change America into your progressive vision for her.

Let me give you this quote again, this is an important thing about America you seem to not understand:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

3. I'm not a progressive, a socialist, or any other group you seem to lump me in so you can assume my values are likewise.

I'm done with this argument.

Why are progressives and liberals so ashamed of their possitions they try to avoid being described as what they are?

I'm not ashamed or hurt if you call me a conservative, but call a progressive a progressive and they cry like a baby......

 

[jokersarewild]

As I said, Times, I'm done with this argument.

 

[ImWithStupid]

 
 

Muslims Resume Building on Christian Graveyard in Pakistan
SARGODHA, Pakistan, September 1 (CDN) —
 
Muslims led by a hard-line cleric on Friday (Aug. 27) resumed building on a Christian cemetery in Mandi Bhawaldin, desecrating more graves in spite of a local government order to halt construction, according to the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA).Radical Muslim cleric Mirza Abdul Ghani had built a mosque on the Christian graveyard off New Rasool Road in Mandi Bhawaldin after allegedly occupying the land 16 years ago, when area Christians were too intimidated to object, said Salamat Zia of APMA.
 
“No one could object to the construction of the mosque, as it is in the constitution of Pakistan that no religious worship place could be demolished,” said Zia. “Therefore all the Christians remained silent then.”
 
The cleric’s alleged desecration of more of the graveyard land around the Masjid Ahle-Sunnat-Wal-Jamaat mosque began three months ago, Zia said.
 
“This Christian graveyard was earmarked before the Indo-Pakistan partition on Aug. 14, 1947,” Zia added, “and their forefathers were buried there.” [...]
 
Khalid Gill, chief organizer of APMA in Punjab Province, said that Muslim leaders threatened Christians who objected to the construction.
 
“They threatened that in case Christians protested against the resumption of construction they would also carry out a protest rally against Christians, and Muslim clerics said Christians would be responsible for the consequences,” Gill said….
 

 

http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/24955/http://www.compassdi...pakistan/24955/
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/24955/
 
 

 

[jokersarewild]

 
 

Muslims Resume Building on Christian Graveyard in Pakistan
SARGODHA, Pakistan, September 1 (CDN) —
 
Muslims led by a hard-line cleric on Friday (Aug. 27) resumed building on a Christian cemetery in Mandi Bhawaldin, desecrating more graves in spite of a local government order to halt construction, according to the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA).Radical Muslim cleric Mirza Abdul Ghani had built a mosque on the Christian graveyard off New Rasool Road in Mandi Bhawaldin after allegedly occupying the land 16 years ago, when area Christians were too intimidated to object, said Salamat Zia of APMA.
 
“No one could object to the construction of the mosque, as it is in the constitution of Pakistan that no religious worship place could be demolished,” said Zia. “Therefore all the Christians remained silent then.”
 
The cleric’s alleged desecration of more of the graveyard land around the Masjid Ahle-Sunnat-Wal-Jamaat mosque began three months ago, Zia said.
 
“This Christian graveyard was earmarked before the Indo-Pakistan partition on Aug. 14, 1947,” Zia added, “and their forefathers were buried there.” [...]
 
Khalid Gill, chief organizer of APMA in Punjab Province, said that Muslim leaders threatened Christians who objected to the construction.
 
“They threatened that in case Christians protested against the resumption of construction they would also carry out a protest rally against Christians, and Muslim clerics said Christians would be responsible for the consequences,” Gill said….
 

 

http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/24955/http://www.compassdi...pakistan/24955/
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/24955/
 
 

Wow. What a bunch of ********. **** Christians!

Just kidding. Those Muslims are awful, awful people. Desecrating graves for such things is immorality at its lowest.

 

[timesjoke]

Just kidding. Those Muslims are awful, awful people. Desecrating graves for such things is immorality at its lowest.

And yet you don't possess the ability to see why most Americans would object to the construction of a mosque at ground zero? You feel it is okay why? Just because your progressive leadership says so?

Notice a pattern forming Joker? Both of these guys want to build a mosque at the site of so many dead infidels? Wake up buddy, the world is moving faster than you think and just because nobody you cared about dies on 9/11, that does not mean it can't happen to you some time in the future. I hope it does not, but what then Joker? Will you show some concern about this stuff then or will you still maintain your progressive attitude that you must follow the will of your leadership?

 

[builder]

And yet you don't possess the ability to see why most Americans would object to the construction of a mosque at ground zero? You feel it is okay why? Just because your progressive leadership says so?

Hi TJ. Still shilling for the wrong team?

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201008190027

Did Gallup poll just prove that Americans don't care about mosque debate?

August 19, 2010 11:42 am ET by Eric Boehlert

As I noted earlier this week, what we don't know about the mosque controversy, which the press loves in part because covering it requires zero actual reporting, is whether anyone outside the Beltway cares at all about this story. And whether voters see it as a political issue for November. (The press sure does.)

The results from a new Gallup poll suggest the answer is that no, not many people care.

The Gallup question:

As you may know, President Obama recently made comments about the construction of this mosque. From what you've heard or read, do you approve or disapprove of what President Obama said -- or don't you know enough to say?

A rather stunning 41 percent of respondents told Gallup they didn't know enough about Obama's comments to form an opinion about the question. And among independent voters, ever more (47 percent) had no opinion.

Meanwhile, according to a new Time poll, 74 percent of Americans say the issue won't have any impact in how they vote in November.

 


And BTW, according to the most recent Pew Research Center weekly survey, just five percent of news consumers pointed to the mosque debate as the story they were following most closely.

 

[timesjoke]

Media matters? Really? If that is where your getting your information about American politics, I can certainly understand why your always so horribly wrong about everything.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/113747-poll-public-strongly-opposes-ground-zero-mosque-

A large majority of Americans oppose the construction of a mosque near the Ground Zero site in lower Manhattan, according to a poll released Wednesday.

The CNN/Opinion Research survey showed that 68 percent oppose the plan to build the mosque, compared to 29 percent who favor it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20015351-503544.html

By a 71 percent to 21 percent majority, voters in New York state agree "that because of the opposition of Ground Zero relatives, the Muslim group should voluntarily build the mosque somewhere else," according to a Quinnipiac poll released yesterday. Among voters in New York City, 63 percent say the community center should be moved, while the sentiment is stronger among suburban and upstate voters.

Americans are very much against this Mosque being built and while some may say it will not change their voting choices, it certain does not help for political groups to directly go against the majority of Americans. I personally feel there are much bigger reasons to oppose the progressives like their out of control spending where just Obama's "Stimulus" bill cost 100 million more than 7 years of war by Bush, and he signed off on that expense in his first month of office.

So is this a major issue that will change the minds of voters away from the progressives who want to kiss behinds of terrorist supporters?

No, I don't think so.

But, what I do believe is this issue will help keep people from moving back to progressives if they already have decided to lean away from them in this next election. No one issue will change voter's minds, but combine issues like this together and there will be a change against the progressives.

 

[hugo]

 
 

Muslims Resume Building on Christian Graveyard in Pakistan
SARGODHA, Pakistan, September 1 (CDN) —
 
Muslims led by a hard-line cleric on Friday (Aug. 27) resumed building on a Christian cemetery in Mandi Bhawaldin, desecrating more graves in spite of a local government order to halt construction, according to the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA).Radical Muslim cleric Mirza Abdul Ghani had built a mosque on the Christian graveyard off New Rasool Road in Mandi Bhawaldin after allegedly occupying the land 16 years ago, when area Christians were too intimidated to object, said Salamat Zia of APMA.
 
“No one could object to the construction of the mosque, as it is in the constitution of Pakistan that no religious worship place could be demolished,” said Zia. “Therefore all the Christians remained silent then.”
 
The cleric’s alleged desecration of more of the graveyard land around the Masjid Ahle-Sunnat-Wal-Jamaat mosque began three months ago, Zia said.
 
“This Christian graveyard was earmarked before the Indo-Pakistan partition on Aug. 14, 1947,” Zia added, “and their forefathers were buried there.” [...]
 
Khalid Gill, chief organizer of APMA in Punjab Province, said that Muslim leaders threatened Christians who objected to the construction.
 
“They threatened that in case Christians protested against the resumption of construction they would also carry out a protest rally against Christians, and Muslim clerics said Christians would be responsible for the consequences,” Gill said….
 

 

http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/24955/http://www.compassdi...pakistan/24955/
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/24955/
 
 

What is the point? Is it that since Christians rights are violated in the ME that it justifies discrimination against Muslims here?

 

[timesjoke]

What is the point? Is it that since Christians rights are violated in the ME that it justifies discrimination against Muslims here?

Well first of all, this is a great example of how Muslims love to build their monuments on ground where dead infidels are located. Second, what discrimination?

There are around a hundred of these places for Muslims to worship in New York, there is no limitation or blocking of the worship of Islam in New York in any way so it is impossible to say this is based on discrimination desires. Only progressives love to twist things into racial attacks if someone objects to their political correct agenda.

The vast majority of people who object to this monument to terrorists do not do so out of hate for Muslims but instead out of respect for those who died at the hands of Muslims. For whatever reason, progressives just can't seem to understand the distinction.

 

[jokersarewild]

Ok, I just have to jump back in on this.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2011799,00.html

Hm. Turns out, almost half of America believes Obama's a Muslim. I'm guessing they're basing their incorrect opinions on facts? Just like most people do when they form an opinion on something they heard in the news or saw on a news stand?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-31/new-yorkers-say-9-11-concerns-eclipse-right-to-build-mosque-survey-finds.html

Most Americans agree that Islam is a peaceful religion.

Out of curiosity, how many Americans actually know the details who also have an opinion on it? Of the "Obama is a Muslim", "GZM", or "Islam is peaceful"? My guess is that the numbers are lower than they should be.