Women seeking abortions must view an ultrasound

[emkay64]

It can't be fixed. Laws are made all the time and nothing is solved. We have death penalties and fines and murders still happen at an alarming rate. There is no "cure". Impose whatever you want...dead babies are going to happen, whether we think it's wrong or not. I do think we should have control over our bodies and their contents...I may not agree with abortion..but I would never "forcibly" make anyone make medical decisions based on my morality, abortions or anything else for that matter. The ramifications of this kind of law are a huge step backwards. What if forcible vasectomies were required after two children. Let's say you HAVE to have one...and YOU have to pay for it...sound like a good deal?

 

[eddo]

The entire unwanted pregnancy issue is one rooted in the lack of taking responsibility. The abortion is only a symptom of the original act to not take reproduction seriously. We would not need abortions at all if man and women took responsibility for their sexuality. Why is it people want the Government to pave the way to make it easy to avoid taking responsibility for their actions?

The abortion is the act taken to escape taking responsibility for the "choice" made to have unprotected sex. The abortion discussion should be about how we get people to take more responsibility for their sexuality so they don't have unwanted babies in the first place. I love old sayings, "an ounce of prevention, beats a pound of cure".

excellent, excellent point.

I so totally agree.

 

[timesjoke]

It can't be fixed. Laws are made all the time and nothing is solved. We have death penalties and fines and murders still happen at an alarming rate. There is no "cure".

So you believe all these women are loss causes? No amount of persuasion can get women to consider killing their children as bad?

And if you truly believe that these women are that far gone, then obviously seeing their child in an untrasound will not have any effect either....right?



You can't have it both ways emkay, if just seeing their child will create feelings of guilt then their not as far gone as you claim they are and there is a core of decency we can build on and help them.

Impose whatever you want...dead babies are going to happen, whether we think it's wrong or not.

Interesting how the abortion cases only exploded once it was made legal though.

By society accepting abortion as a normal form of routine birth control we have added to the problem emkay.

I do think we should have control over our bodies and their contents...

Women do, they had 100% control over their bodies and made a "CHOICE" to have unprotected sex and intentionally created a child inside them.

Why is it that "CHOICE" is always ignored by people who advocate for abortions?

I may not agree with abortion..but I would never "forcibly" make anyone make medical decisions based on my morality, abortions or anything else for that matter. The ramifications of this kind of law are a huge step backwards.

If you mean backwards in time to a day when people used to be held accountable for their actions I party agree, but this is not enough in my opinion.

People never want to be held responsible for their choices, if we don't start working to change this new attitude in society it will end up ripping us apart.

What if forcible vasectomies were required after two children. Let's say you HAVE to have one...and YOU have to pay for it...sound like a good deal?

Your comparing apples and handgrenades emkay, one has nothing to do with the other.

The only reason the requirement for the ultrasound is being asked for is because the women want to "KILL" their child. KILL, not create more life but to KILL emkay.

Do you understand that some people believe KILLING is wrong on a society level and this kind of law is only serving that greater concept of killing being wrong? This is an untrasound emkay, a image created using sound similar to bat sonar. There is nothing intrusive or severe about it and it will be performed by people who feel killing babies is a good thing so how can you possibly claim that it will be misused?


If you have better solutions I am sure everyone will listen because nobody wants to hurt people, we just need to find some way of dealing with a issue that is very, very bad.

 

[emkay64]

I started reading and was set to agree with you on a few of your points, but then you took on that accusing tone you enjoy so much and my interest in agreeing waned considerably. You make some good points..I'll leave it at that.

 

[snafu]

The problem is most states do not have the death penelty. I think it would curb a lot of violance if they did. Also people sit on death row way to long. You should get a quick and speedy trial along with a quick and speeding death.
We have children getting pregnant and do not have the mental capacity to understand the ramifacations it will put upon on them for the rest of their lives. There are women walking around with this guilt everywhere. A close person to me had an abortion before when she was young. We don't talk about it because she knows how I feel and I'm sure there's guilt there too.
Murder should not be a form of birth control period!

 

[Anna Perenna]

Emkay: great thread and great points. I love everything you said.

Hugo also kicked ass, and I appreciated every point Tori made - same with IWS and Wez. For a few minutes there I was glad I logged in.

It's a real shame Timesjoke's thinly-veiled misogynism had to make a cameo, otherwise this could have been an awesome debate.

 

[timesjoke]

Anna, the real shame is you wasted all the words in the first two sentences just to give you an excuse to take a shot at me.

Of course you don't offer any substance to the discussion yourself or try to point out what is wrong in your opinion about anything I said and even emkay very reluctantly admitted I made some good points, hell even eddo agreed with one of my points so obviously I was not that bad. I don't hate women, I don't even hate women who kill their children, in all honesty I feel sorry for them because in my opinion most women get abortions because society and more importantly abortion clinic workers make women feel like that is their only choice and that choice is no big deal. Just because I speak what I feel and I am not afraid to face difficult topics like this without being politically correct, that does not mean I an against all women. In reality you would find it very hard to find a man would would respect and want to protect women more than me. Rolling over and blindly accepting any belief just because the PC crowd demands it is not showing women respect in the slightest. It is actually hurting all women to do so.


If you have to turn to personal attacks, your the one with the problem.


Fell free to do something more than point your finger and call names Anna.





Snaf, in my opinion your second point is the most important in dealing with the death penalty and making it a deterrent. Too much time passes by for society in general to make a direct connection between the crime and the punnishment.

In my opinion the appeal process needs to be streamlined and "ALL" the points to be appealed should be done in one trip, not hundreds of individual appeals that spread it out for 20 years.

 

[wez]

I don't hate women, I don't even hate women who kill their children, in all honesty I feel sorry for them because in my opinion most women get abortions because society and more importantly abortion clinic workers make women feel like that is their only choice and that choice is no big deal.

How do you know what they think? Women come to them to have a service performed.. what do you want them to do.. force an ultrasound and try to guilt the living piss outta them and make them regret their decision for the rest of their lives?

Think women ever regret having kids?

 

[mercury]

Don't forget to add the man in their life to your synopsis there, TJ. As I've said before, often it's that "responsible" man that makes them feel they have no other choice. Probably more often than a clinic worker.

Good question, Wez. I know a few people who do... or at least, would have chosen differently if they knew then what they know now.

 

[eddo]

I know IWS and hugo are against bigger government (as am I,) but one of the duties that I see government being responsible for is the protection of it's citizens. The military, securing our borders, keeping folks from murdering each other, and other things fall into this category.

I just happen to want to afford that same protection to those citizens that are not yet born.



So to answer emkay's question:

Yes, I would be fine with my tax dollars paying for this. In fact, that would make me much happier than my tax dollars now paying for things like Planned Parenthood to advise women to have abortions...

 

[timesjoke]

How do you know what they think? Women come to them to have a service performed..

How do I know what who thinks Wez? The women? I pay attention, I have the studies, I ask the women who actually had abortions and felt pressured to make a rush decision because time passing only makes the procedure more difficult, etc......

And it is not a service, it is a contract killing. The doctor is killing a life based soly on the command of the mother to kill her child. No medical need, no harm to the mother.

what do you want them to do.. force an ultrasound and try to guilt the living piss outta them and make them regret their decision for the rest of their lives?

As explained already by more than just me, you cannot get guilt out of someone who does not think they are doing anything wrong.

If only this image suddenly changes their mind they were not in the right frame of mind to kill their child in the first place.

Think women ever regret having kids?

Sure, even I have had days that I wondered if I could keep going. But then times like seeing my son graduate his Marine bootcamp fills me with pride and the warmth that I have done a very good thing. Humans have doubts all the time. That is why we need things like morals to help us get past times of doubts.

Don't forget to add the man in their life to your synopsis there, TJ. As I've said before, often it's that "responsible" man that makes them feel they have no other choice.

Well the woman did "choose" the man she was making a baby with you know. She could have refrained from making babies until she found herself a better man......right?
Why is it some women try to put down their men as worthless or bad 'after' they seperate or make a baby with them?


Don't get me wrong, I see and agree with your point that sometimes men also pressure women into getting a divorse but is that not all just part of the trainwreck lives of both the man and woman leading up to the unwanted child? I think men who pressure women to get an abortion are very bad, but at the same time she did choose him for mating, I had nothing to do with her choice and I also don't feel a lot of sympathy for men or women who are sleeping with people they know nothing about and make babies with them.


Maybe a little bit of "let's get to know each other" before sex could limit some of these unwanted pregnancies before they happen?

Probably more often than a clinic worker.

The clinic worker is the last person to talk to them, all the fears, all the doubts, all the pressures come to a head with the last meeting with the abortion worker and that worker can easily move a person to a desired result.



Consider the recent case where the school nurse talked a teenage girl into getting an abortion, not telling her parents, and even called the teenager a cab, all telling the girl that if she kept it away from her parents, the abortion would be "FREE". Now tell me honestly that the nurse had nothing to do with the teen mother's decision to abort........

Good question, Wez. I know a few people who do... or at least, would have chosen differently if they knew then what they know now.

I for one would not change my mind, even with all the crap I deal with from my ex-wife to spend time with my younger two kids, I go through it all because I love my kids and could not imagine them not being a part of my life.

Sure I have had doubts, but doubts are just stumbles on the path, we don't always have all the answers to all problems, but core values and morals can help us stay on the right path and not fall for despair or fear to do the wrong things.

 

[wez]

How do I know what who thinks Wez? The women? I pay attention, I have the studies, I ask the women who actually had abortions and felt pressured to make a rush decision because time passing only makes the procedure more difficult, etc......

Women have told you what they think people at clinics think and how they fooled them into a lifetime of regret and how they should have forced an ultrasound on them to inform them of the error of their ways?

And it is not a service, it is a contract killing. The doctor is killing a life based soly on the command of the mother to kill her child. No medical need, no harm to the mother.

That's not what the supreme court said in 1973, now is it?

As explained already by more than just me, you cannot get guilt out of someone who does not think they are doing anything wrong.

If only this image suddenly changes their mind they were not in the right frame of mind to kill their child in the first place.

Bullsh t.. you can make people feel guilty fer just about anything if ya gather validators, isolate them, and relentlessly tell them how bad they are for ______ .. can't ya?

And you intend to instill that guilt and regret for them, eh? As you claim you want to save them from guilt and regret.. Seems a tad contradictory..

Sure, even I have had days that I wondered if I could keep going. But then times like seeing my son graduate his Marine bootcamp fills me with pride and the warmth that I have done a very good thing. Humans have doubts all the time. That is why we need things like morals to help us get past times of doubts.

Who's morals do "we" need? Yours, or else? Maybe we need the morals of China, eh? Then we could have jobs again.. and forced abortions..

 

[ImWithStupid]

I know IWS and hugo are against bigger government (as am I,) but one of the duties that I see government being responsible for is the protection of it's citizens. The military, securing our borders, keeping folks from murdering each other, and other things fall into this category.

I just happen to want to afford that same protection to those citizens that are not yet born.



So to answer emkay's question:

Yes, I would be fine with my tax dollars paying for this. In fact, that would make me much happier than my tax dollars now paying for things like Planned Parenthood to advise women to have abortions...

You can't be for smaller government and for government intrusion at the same time. (unless you're a faux conservative, RINO, DIABLO, etc...)


Move to make the procedure illegal (like is being done in places, by changing the definition http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/27/abortion-ban-proposal-appear-colorado-ballots/), not add more government.

 

[timesjoke]

Women have told you what they think people at clinics think and how they fooled them into a lifetime of regret and how they should have forced an ultrasound on them to inform them of the error of their ways?

Wez, stop it. Your going to that place where you try to stop honest debate by inserting unneeded crud into the mix.

You know darn well I was talking about how women felt pressured to kill their child from the workers, this ultrasound issue is new and of course I have not spoken to any woman who had to deal with that specific thing.

But, almost all studies prove that even 20 years later most women still suffer from their decision to kill their child. This rushed decision has ramifications for a lifetime, and not the short lifetime of the killed child but instead the full life of the mother who will forever regret their decision to kill.

That's not what the supreme court said in 1973, now is it?

The supreme court is irrelivant when it comes to morals. The concept of laws are rooted in morlas to be sure, but many times laws are corrupted and hijacked by special interest groups to make something horrible seem reasonable. As another member of the forum said already, killing is killing. Intent is the defining factor for the moral possition of the killing. If your defending yourself from being killed then sure, your morally standing on solid ground. If your motivation for killing is to escape taking responsibility for your choices, that is not morally right.

Bullsh t.. you can make people feel guilty fer just about anything if ya gather validators, isolate them, and relentlessly tell them how bad they are for ______ .. can't ya?

And you intend to instill that guilt and regret for them, eh? As you claim you want to save them from guilt and regret.. Seems a tad contradictory.

Wrong again Wez, as I pointed out to emkay, the abortion clinics are the people who will be conducting the ultrasound and those workers think killing babies is a good thing so there will not be any isolating or other stuff your trying to insert. "IF" the woman had to go to a completely different location with anti-abortion people running it would agree with you but that is not the case.


People cannot be forced into feeling something they do not feel Wez. Feelings are inside us Wez, not outside. We express our emotions externally sometimes, but what we see is reaction, not emotions themselves. Guilt is a creation or byproduct of shame. You cannot make anyone feel guilt unless they are ashamed of something they have done, or want to do. Just seeing an ultrasound cannot insert shame if the person does not see their actions as wrong.




Why is it so many people including you Wez seem like your real agenda is to insulate women from their true feelings? Is it because you know that if women see their child for what it really is they will not want to kill it? Is killing the baby your only concern? My concern is not my own moral feelings but instead the damage done to society with millions of women getting abortions based on short term pressures ending up living a life of depression and even suicide because later, down the road they see their action for what it really was.




For too long the abortion clinics have had exclusive and isolated contact to these women and telling them it is normal and ordinary to get an abortion. These same clinics refuse to identify the baby as a being and brainwash each woman with the idea that this is nothing more than getting a wart removed. I believe it is time to make a small attempt to reinsert humanity into the discussion..

Who's morals do "we" need? Yours, or else? Maybe we need the morals of China, eh? Then we could have jobs again.. and forced abortions..

No, as usual issues like this are driven by the people, all the people and almost all Americans agree in over 800 studies and surveys that they do not want abortion to be seen as a normal form of birth control. American want "some" steps to be taken to take the killing of a baby more seriously than a wart removal Wez.

Life really is special, we should treat it that way.

You can't be for smaller government and for government intrusion at the same time. (unless you're a faux conservative, RINO, DIABLO, etc...)

What? You have got to be kidding..........


Just making Government smaller can easily be done by eliminating all police forces both federal and State, your all for blind reduction of Government right? You don't want Government to perform any function at all right? How about reducing the Government by cutting the armed forces in half? How about teachers and schools, you hate the idea of Government and want it smaller right? Get rid of all schools then........


I am all for cutting the size of Government "in areas they have no business being" such as welfare programs. Cutting the IRS out completely and inserting the fair tax proposal. No true conservative wants to blindly cut Government just for the sake of being able to claim it has been reduced.


I want the Government to impose laws, and all laws are based on the values the community wants Joe. You not wanting abortion restrictions to be put into law is the same as Obama refusing to listen to the people who did not want his healthcare bill passed into law. The people of America are clear that they do not want abortion to be treated the same as a wart removal. Do you want to follow the moral direction desired from your communities or not IWS?

Move to make the procedure illegal (like is being done in places, by changing the definition not add more government.

Never place all your apples in one basket.

I for one do not want to end all abortions for society. Incest, rape, severe medical issues are all areas that do not show any irresponsibility for the mother and are valid reasons for her to get an abortion. My personal beliefs would not allow an abortion but I do not want to impose all my own beliefs on other people. I am strictly a responsibility adovcate for society. I do want more measures to make people take responsibility for what they do and their own lives. Allowing abortions for any sorry reason is the ultimate in creating a society where irresponsibility is the main focus.


To be honest, I would not even be completely against regular abortions if they required some counseling and a balanced information process. Right now people who want women to get abortions have 100% of the attention of women at the time they are considering it. Their presentation to the mother is one of "no big deal" and "it is only a few cells, not a life". To most people in America, life is something special, and ending a life should be a bigger decision than it currently is. No, I do not think it is easy or a party for the woman, in fact the event is nothing compared to the mess the woman will face years down the road, and it is that mess further down the road I am also concerned with and how that changes the dynamic of society when you have many millions of women in society all suffereing from their short term solution that had them killing their own child.

 

[emkay64]

The only sure way to prevent unwanted pregnancies is no sex. For that to happen I guess we should look to our middle eastern counterparts. Sew up those vaginas and remove the clitoris to make sex unappealing. Wear clothing so no men get urges at the hands of those seductresses and all will be well.

Unwanted pregnancies are going to happen no matter what anyone imposes. Abortion rates have remained even since 1974.

View attachment 2772

It hasn't been abolished but obviously things are moving in a good direction. People are better informed and change won't happen overnight. Birth control is not 100% effective and you are always going to have a group of morons that can't figure out how to use it properly anyways. The human animal makes mistakes..and they make more mistakes when it feels good. The only thing that will happen by imposing procedures and the ilk..is that you will have greater numbers of attrocities being committed to get around having a baby. There should be safe legal alternatives other than adoption....because less face it..there are huge numbers of unwanted adoptable children that will never make it to a good home. There is proof of that everyday.

So again...short of sewing things up...or sterilizing men...I don't see a 100% cure rate.

 

[snafu]

I know IWS and hugo are against bigger government (as am I,) but one of the duties that I see government being responsible for is the protection of it's citizens. The military, securing our borders, keeping folks from murdering each other, and other things fall into this category.

I just happen to want to afford that same protection to those citizens that are not yet born.



So to answer emkay's question:

Yes, I would be fine with my tax dollars paying for this. In fact, that would make me much happier than my tax dollars now paying for things like Planned Parenthood to advise women to have abortions...

while people are patting eachother on the back I'll do the same to eddo on this.

Perfect!

 

[emkay64]

while people are patting eachother on the back I'll do the same to eddo on this.

Perfect!

Awww there you go! See...I knew you all would buy into socialized health care at some point You'd be against putting money in for cancer treatment but you'll buy an irresponsible twit an ultrasound....you guys make no sense whatsoever.

 

[snafu]

Why should this be considered a scare tactic anyway? It's information to make a decision of life and death. If it should scare someone them maybe there's a good reson to be scared? Hmmm? What would be the difference to any medical procedure?

 

[snafu]

Awww there you go! See...I knew you all would buy into socialized health care at some point . You'd be against putting money in for cancer treatment but you'll buy an irresponsible twit an ultrasound....you guys make no sense whatsoever.

Yeah you booger. .

But like eddo said I would much rather pay for this then pay for planned parenthood. And the goverment is to protect the freedom and rights of all indviduals. I just happen to believe that goes for the unborn too.

 

[emkay64]

The issue is that it is forced Snaf! I get the choice when I am pregnant to have an ultrasound or not...why is this not the same for someone having an abortion. The article even states that they may opt for a more invasive procedure (vaginal ultrasound) at their discretion. What is the purpose? It's punishment plain and simple. I can choose to not look at the ultrasound and listen to music I don't have to watch..but the second someone rams something up my hooha when I say "NO FUKKING WAY"...well..then I have an issue.

What if the overweight were subject to forcible rectal exam at every visit? No difference..someone with a grudge against fat people is making it a punishment and veiling it as an attempt to illustrate the damages to colon as a result of their eating habits. Perhaps the soda tax...penalizing people for eating poorly. Opening this door is allowing persecution on so many levels. It's wrong..whatever your moral standpoint.

My point with the topic was not abortion at all. It was about basic human rights...and whether you felt it was a violation. The difference is that some people can't separate the two or be willing to acknowledge that this is wrong. I'm not an avid supporter of abortion, but geeze I don't like where this could lead..for everyone. Okaying one forcible procedure makes it okay for other controversial procedures too. The debate for or against abortion is never ending and we'll never change each others minds but I thought this was one area we'd be unified. I was wrong lol.