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revenge is pointless, and just keeps things going. as someone once said- it's better to just forgive the person, so that you can move on with your life. Seeking revenge just lets them have control over you. If there is a karma- let it dish the revenge out. If there isn't- you're better off with letting it go.

This is wrong. If you sincerely ask God to forgive you, He will. remember, I'm referring to God, not man. I think you are talking about man, while I am talking about God. I don't disagree with this, and I'm not sure why you think I did.

You are taking a whole lot of liberties with the scripture- meaning you are reading a lot in there that isn't there. It is as easy as I say- to receive forgiveness from God, that is. People, however, not so much- but like you said- we should forgive others first. But to grow in your relationship with God- that is where the "in the measure in which you gave, it will be given to you" comes in.

Sorry Snafu, but no. that's wrong. The opportunity for them to be forgiven is most definitely there, but the forgiveness isn't their until they ask for it.

Well, that wasn't my intention. We aren't talking about anyone giving forgiveness, except Jesus, so I am having a bit of a hard time understanding what you are getting at. Are you trying to make this about someone other than Jesus? Are you trying to make some broad point here? Your Bible quotes are cool, and right, but they don't seem relevant to the discussion of Judas. This is completely accurate. Do we know if Judas forgave others or not? I don't. Is that your point? I completely understand that we should be forgiving of others, wez. But that doesn't seem to answer my question: How can you forgive someone for something they haven't done yet? I understand loving them, and that love continuing through the wrong deed, but how can you "grant pardon for or remission of an offense" if that offense hasn't happened yet? Maybe our basic foundations are different, and that's why we don't agree. Cause really, I am not at all grasping that. here's a little bit of what I believe (to hopefully help clear this up some): Jesus came to this earth to die for all of us, because we are all sinners. God, because of the original covenant made with Abraham (and the abuse by the religious leaders of the Old Testament Law,) needed a clean blood sacrifice in order to cleanse the people of their sins (read: "grant pardon of our offenses" or "forgive us.") Instead of making us all pay that price, Jesus came and paid it for all of us- as a gift. But we have to accept that gift. Jesus offers it to all, but we have to accept it- and we accept it by asking Him to cleanse us from our sins (read: "grant pardon of our offenses" or "forgive us.") The forgiveness is there, for all of us, if we sincerely ask for it. (God doesn't force Himself on anyone- it is their own choice to accept it or not.) If we aren't sincere, then our request wasn't sincere, then our sins have not been cleaned. However, once we are cleansed, God wipes our slate clean, and we get a fresh start. But since we are all sinners, we will screw up again. that original request didn't cover or cleanse sins that we haven't yet committed. We have to ask again- and same as before- if we are sincere in our request, they too can be cleansed. If we continue screwing up in the same way, over and over, then our original request for forgiveness of that particular screw up wasn't very sincere- because if it was, then we wouldn't keep doing it. The sincerity of our request is of major importance here, and if we haven't screwed up yet, or know we are going to go make choices that are wrong, I just don't see how we can think we are being sincere in requesting that those offenses are pardoned. So, my point with all that is: Jesus offered Judas forgiveness for betraying Him, but Judas had to ask in order to accept it. He may have done so, but we don't have a record of it in the Bible. But in order to ask forgiveness for the specific act of betrayal, Judas would have had to ask for it specifically, and it would have had to be done AFTER he betrayed Jesus.

I don't read Jesus telling Judas "What you are about to do, do quickly," (or translated better in the Amplified version as: Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do more swiftly than you seem to intend and make quick work of it) as Jesus giving permission or even offering forgiveness for the betrayal, I read it as Jesus knowing what was going to happen and Him telling Judas to get on with it already. But even so, how could Judas seek forgiveness for something the hadn't done yet, and be sincere about it? Jesus doesn't force His forgiveness on people, He offers it, but you have to ask.

Good question, and probably what led to his suicide- I'm guessing that he didn't think he had any other alternative.

But Judas could have chosen to not do it. Even with Jesus I don't think you can seek forgiveness sand then go do the deed you sought forgiveness for. My argument here isn't about the greatness of Jesus and His omnipotence, it is about the attitude of the man involved (in this case- Judas.) The sincerity of our attitudes play a major role in our dealings with God. The Bible tells us that Judas felt remorseful about turning Jesus over tot he Romans (after he did it) but it never tells us that he sought any kind of forgiveness for his deeds. For Instance- Snafu comes over to my house. I say "Welcome Snafu! Please forgive me for I'm about to slap you across the face!" You say "ok" and I slap you. then I say "Hey, that was nice. Snafu, please forgive me, for I am about to slap you across the face again!" You say "ok" and I slap you again. After a few minutes of this, will you think the sincerity of my pre-offense apologies are sincere? or will you think I am using it as a cop out to go through with the offending deed anyway?

lol, Snafu. I'm not worried about it at all- ultimately it is between God and Judas. But it's fun to discuss these things. Each of these definition shows that forgiveness occurs after the deed. Am I missing something here?

Better question: If you are driving the Speed of Light (SOL) and you turn your headlights on, do they work?

It was a commentary laced with satire. Tis all good though.

I didn't judge the severity of their sin, just compared the severity of the earthly consequences of those sins. In fact, I even said that what Peter did was wrong as well. Wow, that sounds great. It also sounds extraordinarily wrong. What wrong deed do you ask forgiveness for BEFORE you do it? And if your seeking of forgiveness at that point is genuine, why would you still go through with the offending wrong deed? Asking for forgiveness before you do something is, in my opinion, a slap in the face to Jesus and his sacrifice. It's like saying "I know you are gonna forgive me anyway, so I'm gonna go ahead and kill this person." That is totally the wrong attitude towards forgiveness. Forgiveness is there, and available to all- but to accept the gift of that forgiveness you have to be sincere in seeking it. You can't be sincere about forgiveness if you then follow through with the wrong deed.

It all goes back to the whole "it can't happen to me" mentality that comes from a lack of kids today having to be personally responsible for their actions... It comes from a generation of parents that would rather drug their kids into being good kids instead of actually parenting them. I know some kids genuinely need medication, but I think they are grossly over prescribed and over relied on. It comes from the deterioration of the moral fiber like timejoke talks about. Without a constant and absolute difference between right and wrong being taught to our kids, they have no guide to judge their decisions by. Parents have to step up and start being parents, not BFF's.

Judas's betrayal led to Jesus being turned over to the Romans. Peter's betrayal, while still wrong, only led to Peter not being caught that night as one of Jesus' followers.

umm, you know the onion isn't a serious news source, right?

Jesus told Peter that Peter was going to forsake Him "three times before the rooster crows" not Judas.

How can you be forgiven BEFORE you do something?

Timesjoke has some valid points, and I'm not sure his posts were "nitpicking" since it's what Cloaked said this post was for...

Indeed. the media keeps feeding and feeding and feeding it. Yeah, that's the one.

"We'll be famous now." Wow. That statement says tons about the mentality of some of the people in the word today- willing to do anything to be famous. Reminds me of that guy that went into the mall and shot up people leaving a suicide note that said "I'm going to go out big" or something like that. It's sad that this is what our kids think it takes to get recognized...

Is that a question concerning the guidelines, or just more baiting aimed at the very person your are complaining about? No need to answer. Cloaked- Your guidelines seem fair and reasonable. Thanks.

In is pretty well accepted that Matthew, Mak, Luke, and John wrote their respective Gospels. Maybe not with their own hands, but certainly by transcribing to someone. They are first hand accounts from eye-witnesses. And if you argue they didn't- In a society where pretty much everything was "word of mouth, this doesn't discredit what was said. much more attention was paid to details, so as to not loose meaning after multiple re-tellings. I really haven't looked much into the Gospel of Judas, as it was written so much later (250+ a.d.) than things happened. Like I said earlier, word of mouth was given much more emphasis back then, but this doesn't date back to any eye-witnesses- whereas the other gospels do. There weren't any eye-witnesses to dispute anything written by that point, so credibility is lacking. lol, I got some Islamic fundies in mind that could do well to learn that lesson.

Assuming that what we now call the scriptures were acurate. It's well established that there were writings from that time that the first book of the apostles to be written down, didn't happen for about 30 years after the death of Jesus. It is also known that there are other writings accounts of Jesus' life and teachings that are from the same period that were discounted at some time. Who knows what some of these said. Writings like the Gospel of Judas, that has surfaced and was spoken about way back in 180 a.d. But in an odd way this backs up my point: #1- the gospels were written by eyewitnesses. By people that saw the events that took place. This adds to their credibility immensely. #2- they were written some time after the events- so those very witness would have already seen and known about the resurrection, so why would they consider the actions of Judas a "betrayal" unless they thought it was bad? They know it led to good things when they wrote it, so why not sugar coat it and make Judas seem all happy and cheerful? Plausible, I guess. But I don't buy it. but guilt to the point of throwing money away and then committing suicide? For actions leading up to the resurrection of the savior of the world? Sorry, I don't buy it. Just felt guilty about what he did, and IMO, that shows his feelings about what he did- he knew it was wrong. I see this from the Gospel of John as possibly eluding to the fact that Jesus and Judas may have had this conversation as obviously Judas knew why he said this to him. Sorry, but I don't buy it. Why the need for a traitor- if Jesus wanted that? Why one of his closest 12? If Jesus orchestrated this like you suggest, what purpose would it serve for Judas to turn him over, instead of Jesus just walking out and saying "Here I am." ?

If Jesus told Judas to betray him, I don't think the scriptures would refer to it as a betrayal. He knew what was gonna happen because of his constant communication with God. He was always off praying somewhere. This goes back to that other post- He was listening for God, and God let him know what needed to happen. He also knew that it needed to happen- that doesn't mean that he wanted to be whipped almost to the point of death, that he wanted to be taunted and ridiculed, or that he wanted to die a criminals death. What he wanted was to do the will of the Father, and the will of the Father was to make salvation available to everyone, since the pharisees had ruined the old system with their corruption of the law. You could, but I don't. Again, it goes against the free will of Judas. And if Judas and Jesus were in cahoots over it, why did Judas return to those that paid him to turn over Jesus and throw their money back at them?

Where did Jesus ask Judas to turn him over?