timesjoke

Where did I ever say the decision was easy? This has always been the problem with many of you, you have to insert things I never said into my mouth so you have an excuse to flame me because I am none of the things you just claimed I am, why do you guys feel compelled to lie about my possitions on these thing? So now what? Should I respond to your lie with attacks of my own? This is how this stuff gets out of hand, your taking it too personal and flamming me instead of paying attention to the information. If you question something I offer as a fact concerning abortions simply ask me to back it up, don't call me names just because you do not like what I said. In the last big abortion discussion I proved every one of my stated facts with the most respected source for abortion facts in America and most of the world but still the facts are ignored and I am a bad guy and deserve to be lied about just because I say the facts. Let me say this again, I do not believe the decision to get an abortion is an easy one, it is horrible that someone would even think that they have to kill a child growing in their womb. I have offered in the past many studies of where it has been proven that most women suffer from their decision to kill their child their entire life and they have many mental issues because of it. But you and most women will never admit that an unwanted pregnancy more often than not is because of irresponsible behaviors "BY BOTH THE MAN AND WOMAN". The only thing that is more severe on the woman is she is the only person who can decide to kill the child. If a man drugs a woman against her will to cause an abortion, that is called murder. You equate my refusal to call women blameless for unwanted pregnancies as me saying the abortion is no big deal to women, and that is simply wrong. Again, my point is one of responsibility, the greater responsibility is to not kill to escape taking responsibility for a "choice" already made by both the man and woman to have sex without using any kind of prevention. I am not saying this about all men and women, just the ones who have irresponsible sex. If you do not have irresponsible sex that can lead to unwanted pregnancies, than I am not talking about you, male or female. Now, I think it was pretty low to try and say I would not be loving to my daughter, this is the kind of thing that I get so frustrated with because I don't do this with other people just because they say something I do not agree with. This sort of personal attack is just not reasonable. I love my daughter, even if she did have an abortion I would not disown her or reject her as your trying to imply. But she would have made the wrong decision, and like any bad decision humans make we have to learn from them and move foward instead of trying to twist wrong into right under the guise of saving hurt feelings. I would hope I can teach my daughter to have enough self-respect to not make that mistake of an unwanted pregnancy in the first place and if not to teach her the proper response to a mistake is not to kill a baby, but as I said, if she did make several big mistakes like this, I would love her and support her and help her to move foward, not trash her or hate her. But you are right about one thing, when it comes to responsibility I am not flexible. A person is either responsible for their actions or they are not. I do not give a pass for bad behavior just because someone might get hurt feelings being made to see the truth of their irresponsibility. Ren, You took the time to directly call into question my integrity and assign a false motive for my posts, that is a flame. Instead of making personal commentary about me as a person, why not get involved in the discussion at hand instead?

They are as much Christian as I am Muslim.

Again, that is not fair, most of the big blowups in the past was because when people would flame me I would reply in kind, a back and forth would result and what did it get us? Either people are talking about me or they are not Em. hugo and Ren made their replies not about the topic but they directed negative comments about me as a person, attacked my character, and made wrong comments about me. Now if that is not a flame, what is it? Why are comments directed at me in the first place? What is being accomplished by calling me names?

Claiming I was anti-woman is a flame em, that is tossing accusations at the person speaking instead of addressing the topic. The same thing is done when people are vocal against the Obama policies, they are called racist in order to discount the words that are being spoken. I am not against women at all, in fact I would say I am more strict on men when it comes to responsibility issues but responsibility does not change just because of your sex. You even added to it with your little "evil women" comment. Where did I ever say all women were evil? You have to insert that into my words in order to pretend I am being over the top. I have never said anything close to that and by pretendiong like I have is also a type of flame em.

Another one, why it is only all of my posts are deleted RO? It was Ren and Hugo who took to flames on me and I replied to but you delete even my first post that was 100% on topic? What are you doing? Being as RO is on a delete what Times says move I can only say that again I am not only critical of women, your assertion that I am harsher on women is false. I place responsibility where it belongs, responsibility does not see gender, it is what it is. I understand the decisions are complex but just because I hold all people responsible for their actions, that does not mean I am against women in any way. I love women, I cherish all the women in my life and I see women as equals, and as being equal I can honestly apply responsibility to them just as strictly as I do all men.

Looks like several posts were deleted, interesting how the attack on me from hugo is allowed to stay, lol. Your bias is showing RO. I am sure you will delete this again but if your allowing other people to flame, I will reply not with returned flames but simply to defend myself and point out the flames for what they are. Again, hugo your the one who claimed I was irresponsible and you took the direction of trying to use religion and the Bible as a weapon to flame me. All I did was teach you what is really in the Bible. It is not my fault you do not truly understand the teachings God has given us. Jesus is a savior, not you, hugo, lol. So being as you are the one who claimed I was irresponsible for letting my wife decide to leave and be unfaithful back your words up, explain what you feel the responsible thing would have been to do? Should I have restrained her, tie her to the bed and refuse to let her leave? Should I have tried to brainwash her to follow a faith she had turned her back on? Exactly what should i have done hugo?

Back at you big guy, prove that prior to any votes being cast that Obama had already won. That is the excuse you and hugo use to justify why you wasted your vote right? Why is it your fine with an assumption from polls to waste your vote, but when the same polls say it was the independents who put Obama into office, suddenly you claim that polls are not allowed as evidence to prove anything? So you go first, without using opinion polls (as you say I can't do) prove to me that there was no way McCain could have won if all the splinered conservatives had supported him? And don't forget the negativity factor, most of these same people who refused to vote for McCain (like you and hugo) were very vocal against McCain so prove to me how your negativity did not discourage other conservatives to not vote or waste their vote.

So when hugo says it was assumed Obama would win that assumption is accepted as fact by you because he is saying what you want to hear to protect you from your own part in helping get Obama elected, but if I repeat what all the experts have said about this last election, me and all of them don't know what we are talking about because we do not agree with you? Why are you better informed than people who do this for a living RO? The answer is you know your wrong, and your hiding behing an absolute, because there is no way to say absolutely what the votes case were because the actual votes are kept hidden. It is an interesting possition but flawed because if your willing to say your vote was not wasted because it was assumed Obama was goign to win anyway, then you have already admitted that polls are a reliable media to make our decisions because that is all you had available to you before you cast your vote to help Obama win. Now your trying to say these same polls that told you McCain was not going to win are not valid anymore because they agree with me and snaf.

So you dodge my questions but then ask more questions yourself? Well I do not dodge questions, but you seem very selective to only try and paint me a certain way and ignore everything else I say. The part you refuse to admit to is I am not only critical of women, I am critical of men too but you blind yourself to my many, many hard line possitions on men so you can pretend I am only attacking women from what you assume is hard feelings from my experiences with women in my past.......but your wrong. In this question the man is a piece of garbage to try and avoid his responsibility, in pretty much every possition I take there is a heavy responsibility connection and I do not give breaks to one sex or the other, either your responsible or your not. I may seem a bit more hard on women on the abortion issue because only women kill their babies, once the woman has decided to allow the child to live I am severely supportive of even harsher laws to make men stand up to their responsibility. Let me offer an example, once a man is behind on his child support by $5,000 I believe that should be mandatory work release jail time until he has cought up his back child support. This let's him still work but he can't go out and have fun if he is refusing to support his children. Misuse? Your the one who tried to hit me over the head with what you claimed was commanded by God and was proven wrong hugo, not me. You tried to bring faith into a discussion to flame me, nothing else. I am saved hugo, no hellfire for me, all men fall short, but you pointing your finger at me with false claims is not really helping your cause. I am still waiting for you to tell me what I should have done? Force her to stay? Tie her to the bed and make her be faithful? Force her to go to church and brainwash her to believe in a faith she had rejected? Tell me hugo, what should I have done in this situation, your the one claiming I was irresponsible so it is up to you to explain what you feel the responsible thing was.

You know, I wonder how much of this is you pretending not to understand the points. He never said it was "JUST" the Libertarian voters, he said Ron Paul caused more splintering when he switched to the Libertarian party to get on the ticket. Way, way more than just the Libertarians moved their votes from McCain to Ron Paul and were wasting their votes. My other main point is when people are over the top negative against people like McCain even though they call themselves conservative minded people, they also do damage to the overall turnout and support for McCain, in many ways groups like the Libertarians helped to sabotage McCains run for President from the inside out. RO, you speak of it not being smart to keep doing the same thing over and over but you think it is better to make it worse? There is an old saying, out of the frying pan, and into the fire. You can "CLAIM" McCain would have been more of the same but you don't know that for sure, nobody can know that for sure, I believe he would have been much better than Bush they that would have prompted more interest in the conservative mindset and we would have had way more good people getting involved in the conservative movements. What we can say for sure is there would not have been things like this healthcare law, this we know for sure and we also know for sure Obama would not have been able to sign this into law except for the splintering of the Conservatives who refused to support McCain and as such put Obama into the Whitehouse. Consider this, in every poll conducted in America, the same results hold true, way more than half of America is middle right leaning or very right politically, not to the left. There had to be a reason all these normally right leaning people stayed home or wasted their votes on people who had no chance to win the election and instead helped Obama get elected. I agree that to a certain degree frustration from Bush helped to suppress the vote but I contend that it was the new nasty element from groups like the Libertarians that poisioned the well, gave the entire process a negative slant and ruined the situation for everyone. This new nasty movement to rip people apart just because they are not 100% "pure" in your mind is not the way it is supposed to be. Case in point, RO, why do you call snaf frightened? hugo dodges my questions like the plague almost every day and you never ask him if he is scared of me. So why now resort to calling snaf scared? Just because he does not agree with you there is a drive to put him down? Hugo is wrong, it was a close race, until it turned nasty by people like the Libertarians and other splinter groups that changed the dynamics. You both dodges the fact that all the experts said the race was decided by the independents, but nobody can say for sure just how many conservative minded people just stayed home because the process was too dirty. Even IWS said he was not motivated to vote and stayed home. Even he was stuck in the negative air and did not exercise his voting rights, another conservative that fell victim of the nasty and hateful splintering. You pretend to not understand how harmful the splintering is, why is that RO? Are you scared of admitting the truth? Can't be wrong now can you RO? You do not make any mistakes, so now you have to call a good man scared to cover up your mistakes. Snaf is not like me, I am rough and edgy in my discussions but he is not, your crass methods are exactly what I am talking about in the general puplic, good people like snaf get driven away by the nasty people who cannot allow them the respect they deserve to not be attacked just because they do not agree with you. How about we get back to talking about topics and stop making this about attacking the people having the discussion?

Just because I relate how it went that does not mean I am still upset over it or believing every woman in the world is the same way. I let go of the emotional connections to this memory years ago. Let me ask you a question Ren. If a woman says she is on the pill but does not tell the man she is also on rifampin and ends up getting pregnant, whos fault is it the baby was created? And who pays for that mistake? Ren your being blinded by your false assumptions of me, I have always been the guy who preaches responsibility above all other things. My possition on creating babies is no matter if it is a mistake or a deception, the man is still responsible for his seed and the life he helps to create. Nothing is 100% so even if the woman is being truthful, there is still the chance of pregnancy so there is no "OUT" for the man under any circumstance. The part your ignoring is I place a heavier burdon on the man even if he was misled because his trust of the lie was still his fault. The only reason I am heavy on women in a abortion discussion is because men don't kill babies, only mothers kill babies so at that point, men are not even involved. Once the situation has passed the point where the woman allows the child to live, then the man can begin his responsibility for his own part in the creation of the child. Let me say this again, the men should be held accountable even if they were deceived, there is no excuse for making a baby and trying to escape taking responsibility for that child. And who pays for that mistake? The child does. Either the mother will kill the child or she will raise a child that was not wanted all because "BOTH" parties did not take reproduction risks seriously. I take it seriously, and I took it seriously long before I ever met my ex-wife, lol. eddo, take it a step further, the vast majority of abortions are to women who already have children and have never been married. There is no "I didn't know" excuse, they know exactly what causes pregnancy. I would have to go look it up again for the exact figure but somewhere around 80% of women who get abortions either used no birth control, or was inconsistent in using birth control when they had sex during the month they got pregnant. Why would so many people be having sex without using protection? They don't care if they get pregnant? Is it something they just block out and refuse to accept as reality? I know I am not a woman but even as a man I have always been extremely careful not to make a baby I did not want. I have three kids and I wanted every one of them and talked about creating a child with my partner each time. I once told my son that if your going to "play like an adult", then you have to behave like an adult and use adult protections.

There is no need snaf, RO can see the polling data and expert commentary just like anyone else, his possition is there is no way to know for sure and I agree, but we can make a reasonable decision based on what information we do have. Every expert agrees it was the independents who gave Obama the election, your right, if Ron Paul and Barr had gotten behind McCain then McCain would have won because the contest was very close. Splintering pulling away votes is a real fact, even if RO does not want to admit that because he is part of the splintering.

Well said snaf. The only reason RO and hugo pretend to not understand this concept is because they would have to admit their own fault in helping Obama get elected. They complain all the time about people like Obama but when offered a choice between him and one other guy no where near as bad, they choose to support Obama by witholding support for the guy who would not vote for things like this healthcare law.

I had no decision in that hugo, what would you have me do, kidnap her on the way out the door and strap her to the bed? I respected my vows, I loved her completely, I never cheated, I never raised my hand in anger, I provided well for her and our children but she lost her faith. Why is it you seem so desperate to try and paint me a bad person in this hugo? You talk of God but there is no commandment from God to force a woman to stay if she has decided to go. Do you have any faith at all because you sound like an atheist trying to use religious beliefs against someone without the benefit of understanding what is in the Bible. Deuteronomy 24:1-4 1When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. 2And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. 3And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; 4Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. This was from the time of Moses and Jesus later told us that even though divorce was permitted, that was not really the intention of God. God wants us to stay together. The biggest mistake most athiests and religious in appearance only people make is they forget this: Mark 10:6-9 (King James Version) 6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Notice where it says what "God hath joined"? The bond of marriage requires God to be involved, without the shared of bond of faith there can be no marriage. My ex-wife lost her faith, turned away from God, turned away from me. She made her decisions in life and I had no way of stopping her, but it was clear our bond through God had been broken. 1 Corinthians 7:15 (King James Version) But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. Matthew 19:9 (King James Version) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. So tell me hugo, what was the "responsible" thing to do? You claim I was irresponsible and I would like you to spell it out for me how you see my actions as irresponsible? Or is this just another flame attempt hugo? You angry again? If so maybe you should go see what God said about that.

So on the first date you completely trust that person with your life hugo? I seriously doubt that. Once again your just trying to take potshots because you know that comment was BS. Things happen hugo, I pay more in child support than many people make as their whole income. It is like getting a lot of speeding tickets and suddenly your driving under the speed limit just to be sure. I told her from day one that I was a tad gun shy and to not take anything I do as self-preservation personally because it has nothing to do with her specifically. Being as we were friends for a long time before we ever dated, she was already familure with my situation and was completely understanding of it. That is most likely why we are still together. It takes time to completely trust someone hugo, while we were actively looking into the whole relationship thing, there is not enough to base that kind of trust on. I will admit I do not completely trust easily, but once I am there I am unshakable and completely loyal to that person. I now trust Tami with my life, she has earned my trust through her dedication and understanding of things like my being gun shy. Of course I did trust the ex-wife and she emptied our bank accounts, ran off with someone else she met on the internet, got pregnant with him, he died in a car accident, then she tried to come back........To say I was devestated would be an understatement, and no I would not take her back, now that was based on a lack of trust.

Tami took me to her doctor and had him show me her medical records proving she had her tubes tied before I stopped using condoms with her. I consider it a profound victory that my son grew up and joined the Marines without ever getting some girl pregnant.

That and many other factors are so powerful I don't believe any woman can honestly make a good decision at that time. Consider all the complex issues all colliding at the same time there are even hormone changes that all effect the state of mind and put that together with a short period of time to make the decision with the fewest complications should an abortion be selected. It is just too much, nobody could make a decision to kill their own child under those conditions and not live the rest of their life wondering......wondering........regretting.....suffering........what if. That said I agree with Ren on seeing it a little different if the situation was forced on her in rape, my personal beliefs are such I could not kill a child for any reason but I see no reason under a reasonable society where a woman should be obligated to keep a child growing inside them if there was no choice or responsibility on her part. Thankfully this kind of abortion only accounts for about 1 or 2% of the total abortions performed in America so while it is horrible, that is not our real problem in society dealing with unwanted pregnancies. What we need to figure out is why people are having unprotected sex when they know a life can be created? No child over the age of 14 can claim they don't know what causes pregnancy, so why not use precautions? Where I will not agree with Ren is where she makes the proposition that hormones make you out of control. Nothing takes away your ability to decide, letting yourself fall completely into an abandoned sexual activity without protection is a choice itself.

Stray remark? Again your making excuses for bad behaviors, there is a way to dissagree without being a complete azz and ruining an event for those who were there with a positive message. Why is it you do not believe people should first be respectful to each other? I say the first indicator on if a person is being reasonable is if they show mutual respect. This dumbazz showed no respect so why should anyone show him respect? Nobody has to go out of their way to prove that, they do it to themselves, all groups have their radical fringe, and what shows them as radical is their anger and hostility to people they should be calling friends.

So because Palin and McCain are not 100% perfect, they are "BAD" to you? Do you even listen to yourself say this stuff? I don't withold my vote from your version of "GOOD" out of spite or because I am angry at them RO, I do not vote for them because they are completely unknown and cannot gain any traction in a National election most of the time. In a case like Ron Paul, he is a pretty good man but he believes in complete isolation and would refuse to protect long standing friends. When he spouts stuff like that the voters turn the other way and run so he basically shot himself in the foot with that. Now on local races I have cast my vote for many independent canidates that showed they were more conservative than the Republican as long as they were not a complete unknown. Voting just for the sake of most conservative and not paying attention to if they are too unknown and unpopular to win is not logical though.

Thats right RO, make no allowance for self control or personal responsibility. As I already pointed out, nothing is made better with rage or unreasonable disapprobation.

And that is the point, you see this level of severe umbrage your demonstrating to be reasonable but few things in life can be solved with anger and name calling. Your actually part of the reason good people do not run for public office.

You can't paint every Republican with the Bush brush RO, by doing so and being incredibly ugly to anyone who does not fit your "perfection" requirement, you add to the reason why good people do not run for public office. I am not saying you have to like anyone, just don't hate them, that kind of thing helps the liberals and adds to the splintering that keeps us bickering among ourselves and not paying attention to what they are doing. If you really believe your making things better with this kind of vitriol, your wrong.

And there is another great example of how we are splintered to the point we are bickering about 'purity' instead of fighting against the real enemey. McCain and Palin do not deserve to be ripped apart just because they are not the 'perfect' conservative. There is nothing wrong with wanting the other guy to win, but winning does not have to be about trying to rip the other guy apart either. When you take this kind of attitude and 'your guy' does not win, there will be so much built up animosity that you will refuse to support the guy who did win, and that can only help the other side. That is how Obama won, and they can keep winning as long as we are being so nasty to each other. No "I" in team.

In my opinion most of those bad behaviors you just described were made possible because the girl knew there was a 'safety net' available to her. She knew the school would help her get a free abortion and that sits at the back of the mind even if you do not directly think about it. The problem is new mental health studies keep comming out proving that even 20 years later, these girls will most likely still be suffering from their decision to abort their child long into their life as a woman. They may never get completely over it. I am against abortion because it is the ultimate in the refusal to take responsibility for your own actions, to kill a life just to "get away" with bad behavior but even if I was supportive of abortions, I would be against the Government being part of the process. More often than not the Government sees it like hugo pointed out, a way to save tax money by not spending it on medical care and most likely long term welfare, possibly generational welfare because the child is viewed as falling into the same trends as the mother if this is allowed to continue.

You can't rewrite history now hugo, you gave up before the first vote was cast, you were slamming McCain and Palin from day one and your negative voice was part of why they did not win. There is more involved than just your state, there is the general mood created by groups of people like yourself who feed off of each other and cause a general opinion to shift. You were exclaiming defeat long before the contest was started, you turned your back on the game being played and helped the other team. McCain learned from his mistakes and would never have passed something like this healthcare bill, too many people were stuck on their anger to see that allowing someone like Obama into the Whitehouse was a huge mistake. Now we have this healthcare law and it is all because of the splintering of normally conservative voices who turned away from the only conservative minded person on the ticked out of spite and their assumptions of being beat before the contest ever began, oh and internal bickering, now that has ripped conservatives apart.