ANOTHER GOD QUESTION

[Libertarius]

Pastor Frank wrote:
> "Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:fkucj2p7sht1fnnrb2fujbsrnh61bjrsgq@4ax.com...
>
>>On 18 Oct 2006 12:00:24 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>===>Gods can exist by accident, but universes must be created. ;-) -- L.
>>>
>>>The better way to say that is "God Exists"..There is no origin or
>>>causality ( accident)..."Always existing and ever the same"
>>
>>Feel free to demonstrate that it does.
>>
>>
>>>The Material Universe is different. It had a beginning and will
>>>eventually have an end.
>>
>>And your evidence for this, is?
>>
>
> All the things which do have a beginning and an end, and the paucity of
> things which do not. Why be secretive Christopher? Tell us already of all
> the things you know which don't have a beginning nor an end.

===>You know as well as I do, "pastor" Fake.
EXISTENCE, the universal substance, the Cosmic Totality has np beginning
and no end, though its processes do produce ephemeral entities. Perhaps
even beings you would recognize as gods,
e.g. the Elohim of the Bible. -- L.

 

[Libertarius]

marcinmd wrote:
>> Science deals with observing, naming and listing of what is. It's what
>>Adam did with God's creation. The "Christian world-view" is about the
>>quality of actions on the scale of good and evil, and implementing ideals of
>>qualities which culminate in the Kingdom of Heaven. It has therefore nothing
>>in common with science and the scientific method.
>
> \
>
> I think that is well said. But it is also true that Science continues,
> in it's own way, to make discoveries that confirm the Judeo-Christian
> view point. They are not contradictory in other words.

===>You are fantasizing again, marci!

>
> For example, the claim that some things are "invisible" was scoffed at
> until science acquired the technology to see things not visible to the
> human eye..Then later, science figured that the Universe is
> multidimensional...... Albert Einstein came to the conclusion that the
> created universe had a beginning

===>Now you are LYING!
He never spoke of any "created universe"!
Does lying make you feel stronger in your silly beliefs?


( and will have an end) which is a key
> point of Christian cosmology....
>
> Let there be light... Turns out to be pretty accurate.

===>You're grasping at straws to buttress your silly ideas.
Why not just stick to baseless, credulous FAITH? -- L.

 

[Libertarius]

Pastor Frank wrote:
> "Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
> news:45354EC8.2030105@nothingbutthe.truth...
>
>>In fact most people are Atheists to some degree. Christians will deny the
>>the Mayan, Hindu, Ancient Roman, Ancient Greek, Ancient Egyptian, Ancient
>>Sumerian, Ancient Baylonian, etc. Gods and Goddesses.
>>
>
> What do you know about "Christians" Libertine? Nothing!!!!

===>Libertarius knows all there is to know about Christians.
That even includes your phony Neo-Marcionite "Christianity" based on
a hatred for Jews, "their" OT, and "their" god YHWH, whom you denounce
because you have invented your own "god", NARCISSISM!

We don't
> "deny" any such gods. In fact we believe in the existence of all those gods
> you list, we just decline to give them any credence, or put our faith into
> them.

===>Now THAT is funny!
Thanks for the laugh!

> Is it true you lost faith in your God, the "eternal cosmos" as per
> subject above, and which ain't eternal?

===>I have NEVER, EVER called it "my God". The Eternal Cosmos is
EXISTENCE ITSELF, which will always exist, while your "love God" will
expire with your last breath.
ALL GODS WORSHIPPED BY MEN ARE IDOLS! -- L.

 

[Pastor Frank]

"marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1161372178.780744.264580@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> No, that term should be reserved for people who... I don't know... think
>> the earth is only 6,000 years old, believe evolution doesn't happen, or
>> claim the moon landing was faked.
>
> Straw Man argument... Only one tiny slice of the Christian World are
> fundementalists..The historic Church, both the Eastern Orthodox Church
> and the Roman Catholic Church dont believe in your characterization at
> all.
> It's like calling all Atheists Communists...Care to defend the
> Gulag..and Mass Murder by the Stalinists..? The USSR was Officially
> Athiest you know.
>
Atheism was the state religion of the USSSR producing some startling
results. See below

Pastor Frank

Preamble to: THE FRUITS OF MILITANT ATHEISM in the new USSR
By Brian Moynahan/The Faith: A History of Christianity/Doubleday,
NY/2002/pp. 670-674.

The unenlightened ego, with its drive to power and social control,
has been problematic both inside and outside of religion. The
preceding examples show the militant atheist ego at its murderous
worst. They also reveal that religionists are not the only people who
cower in the herd, as is shown by the Stalinists' pathetic recourse to
'atheist churches' such as the LEAGUE OF THE MILITANT GODLESS
and the Groups of THE GODLESS YOUTH, complete with 'hymns.'

= = = = = = = = = = = == = = == = = = = = = = == === = == =

A decree in January 1918... banned religious teaching in all
schools, colleges, and universities. All church buildings were taken
by the state... Church and monastic land was nationalized. No
compensation was offered for confiscated assets... Under the new
constitution, the clergy - together with capitalists, criminals, and
imbeciles - were deprived of the right to vote or hold state offices.
In practice this denied the clergy the right to food rations and their
children to education... the Orthodox Church was stripped of its legal
privileges, its land, and its source of income...
Calculated persecution returned after the Bolshevik victory in
1921. Lenin sanctioned terror as a form of pesticide to be used on
people whom he dehumanized as "harmful insects...scoundrel
fleas...bedbugs"...

 

[Pastor Frank]

"marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1161373483.100276.129030@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Yes but it is also important to remember what kind of Christian you are
>> > speaking about. In the East, the physical world is not looked at like
>> > something to be discarded or a fake covering for the reality of
>> > spiritual existence. The created world also reveals God so what we
>> > learn about it matters to a certain extent.
>> >
>> You cite no evidence for your assertion, <<
>
> That the material world reveals God? Geee.... Er...Blue Sky...Birds in
> flight... Um Ocean crashing....Birth....etc.... Seems obvious and the
> revelation of God through matter is in fact a long held tenant of the
> Church.
>
>> and I disagree. Eastern philosophy is based on maya,
>> meaning illusion.
>
> You misunderstand.. I meant Eastern Christiainity
>
> Religion deals with
>> qualities, such as attitudes, opinion, judgment regarding good and evil
>> actions etc. not with creation itself.<<
>
> That's correct...I undersand that about Buddhism etc. but that was not
> my reference as I just wrote above.
>
>> >> For all we know for certain, we and the entire cosmos might well
>> >> be
>> >> as substantial as a dream in the mind of God. See below
>> >
>> > This is why personal interpretation is not a good idea.
>>
>> Whose non-personal interpretation do you prefer?<<<
>
> The Church
>> >
>> > You can simply
>> > conclude that anything is possible and stop caring.
>> >
>> What does Christ say about that? Let me quote: Jesus in Mk:10:27: And
>> Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with
>> God:
>> for with God all things are possible.
>> Why would "all things are possible" produce apathy?<<
>
> You can slip into Nilism when you speculate based on your own personal
> interpretations of scripture.
>
You don't trust the Holy Spirit then, do you? You would rather have ad
numerum, i.e. the traditional majority opinion of the church instead of the
words of Jesus Christ as revealed to you by the Holy Spirit.
I would go the other way. I would listen to Christ but decline the Mary
worship of the RCC. I don't know enough about Orthodox church doctrine to
tell how well they adhere to sola scriptura.

 

[Pastor Frank]

"Father Haskell" <fatherhaskell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1161387235.840741.110190@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> God who is now in hell
>
> Very GOOD! You're catching onto this blasphemy thing
> like an old pro!
>
God is always in hell praying with sinners, as Christ did. God never
abandons any of His children, but came as Jesus Christ to open the doors of
their prison. All they need to do is take His hand and let Him lead them up
and out of the darkness into the light of day.
But as you can see right in these NGs, they would rather reject,
screeching flames and accusations, for hell is the only home they have known
and they are afraid to leave.
God the father respects His children's wishes and will not yank them out
of their cages, forcing them into His heaven.

 

[Pastor Frank]

"Father Haskell" <fatherhaskell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1161387350.958396.255250@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "Father Haskell" <fatherhaskell@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1161298847.248587.327090@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> > marcinmd wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Stroll about with a "kick me" sign on your back, you're
>> >> > gonna get kicked.
>> >>
>> >> Sir, I have been "kicked" by no one, I assure you... The only damage
>> >> ad
>> >> hominem attacks do are to the people who employ the tactic.
>> >
>> > Flamed on usenet, kicked in the ass by half the school, including
>> > the janitor, big difference.
>>
>> Who "kicks" whom and who's left standing is a big thing in atheist
>> circles.
>
> Checked the back of your shirt lately?
>
So what? Christ suffered more from atheists disguised as religionists.

 

[Pastor Frank]

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:4539696D.3070506@nothingbutthe.truth...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> For all we know for certain, we and the entire cosmos might well be
>> as substantial as a dream in the mind of God.
>
> ===>So, now you claim that "love" has a "mind"??? -- L.
>
Only atheist love is a mindless feeling requiring no evidence. Christian
love is the opposite. Christian love is mindful, for it requires loving
action for evidence.

 

[Pastor Frank]

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:45398F72.2020708@nothingbutthe.truth...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:fkucj2p7sht1fnnrb2fujbsrnh61bjrsgq@4ax.com...
>>>On 18 Oct 2006 12:00:24 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>===>Gods can exist by accident, but universes must be created. ;-) --
>>>>>L.
>>>>
>>>>The better way to say that is "God Exists"..There is no origin or
>>>>causality ( accident)..."Always existing and ever the same"
>>>
>>>Feel free to demonstrate that it does.
>>>
>>>>The Material Universe is different. It had a beginning and will
>>>>eventually have an end.
>>>
>>>And your evidence for this, is?
>>
>> All the things which do have a beginning and an end, and the paucity
>> of things which do not. Why be secretive Christopher? Tell us already of
>> all the things you know which don't have a beginning nor an end.
>
> ===>You know as well as I do, "pastor" Fake.
> EXISTENCE, the universal substance, the Cosmic Totality has np beginning
> and no end, though its processes do produce ephemeral entities. Perhaps
> even beings you would recognize as gods,
> e.g. the Elohim of the Bible. -- L.
>
The opposite is true Libertine!!! God created "the Cosmos", not the
other way around.

 

[Pastor Frank]

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:45399297.5080309@nothingbutthe.truth...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
>> news:45354EC8.2030105@nothingbutthe.truth...
>>
>>>In fact most people are Atheists to some degree. Christians will deny the
>>>the Mayan, Hindu, Ancient Roman, Ancient Greek, Ancient Egyptian, Ancient
>>>Sumerian, Ancient Baylonian, etc. Gods and Goddesses.
>>
>> What do you know about "Christians" Libertine? Nothing!!!!
>
> ===>Libertarius knows all there is to know about Christians.
> That even includes your phony Neo-Marcionite "Christianity" based on
> a hatred for Jews, "their" OT, and "their" god YHWH, whom you denounce
> because you have invented your own "god", NARCISSISM!
>
>> We don't
>> "deny" any such gods. In fact we believe in the existence of all those
>> gods you list, we just decline to give them any credence, or put our
>> faith into them.
>
> ===>Now THAT is funny!
> Thanks for the laugh!
>
You don't laugh Libertine, you snicker without reason like an idiot.

>> Is it true you lost faith in your God, the "eternal cosmos" as per
>> subject above, and which ain't eternal?
>
> ===>I have NEVER, EVER called it "my God". The Eternal Cosmos is
> EXISTENCE ITSELF, which will always exist, while your "love God" will
> expire with your last breath.
> ALL GODS WORSHIPPED BY MEN ARE IDOLS! -- L.
>
You got that reversed again Libertine. Your cosmos is created and
material, and will perish as all matter will. The only thing eternal is the
holy and inerrant Word of God. The quality which is love will exist in all
eternity, as all qualities will, for qualities are spiritual and not
material.

 

[Scott Richter]

marcinmd <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:

> > No, that term should be reserved for people who... I don't know... think
> > the earth is only 6,000 years old, believe evolution doesn't happen, or
> > claim the moon landing was faked.
>
> Straw Man argument... Only one tiny slice of the Christian World are
> fundementalists.. The historic Church, both the Eastern Orthodox Church
> and the Roman Catholic Church dont believe in your characterization at
> all.

Churches don't have beliefs, people do. The person to whom I was
responding has publicly stated he believes in at least two of the three
crackpot ideas, which more than quallifies him as a moron.

And he calls himself a pastor, to boot...

 

[marcinmd]

Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> On 20 Oct 2006 12:44:43 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> And how is that vidence? It's merely what some people out of touch
> with reality think, who can't grasp that only people inside their
> religion will think that.


Because the World is ordered in such a way as to impy a divine hand.

Define "reality"

 

[marcinmd]

>From RCC catachism:


II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD
31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person
who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are
also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs
in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and
convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the
truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold
point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.

32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the
world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the
origin and the end of the universe.

As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is
plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the
creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power
and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been
made.[7]

And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the
earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air
distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . .
question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful."
Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to
change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not
subject to change?[8]

33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense
of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with
his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself
about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual
soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible
to the merely material",[9] can have its origin only in God.

34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves
neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they
participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end.
Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a
reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality
"that everyone calls God".[10]

35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the
existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real
intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to
give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in
faith.(so) The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one
to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

 

[Christopher A. Lee]

On 21 Oct 2006 10:05:32 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:

>
>Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>> On 20 Oct 2006 12:44:43 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:

Here's what you snipped....

"That the material world reveals God? Geee.... Er...Blue Sky...Birds
in flight... Um Ocean crashing....Birth....etc.... Seems obvious and
the revelation of God through matter is in fact a long held tenant of
the Church."

How is the irrelevant tenet (not tenant) of "the Church" evidence for
anything apart from the fact that its members believe something?

>> And how is that evidence? It's merely what some people out of touch
>> with reality think, who can't grasp that only people inside their
>> religion will think that.

Now explain why it's evidence.

Hint: you can't start off from the presumption of "the divine".

>Because the World is ordered in such a way as to impy a divine hand.

Only in your deluded fantasies.

>Define "reality"

That which doesn't go away when you stop believing it.

 

[Christopher A. Lee]

On 21 Oct 2006 10:11:59 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:

>>From RCC catachism:
>
>
>II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD

Why are you cross-posting this stupidity to an atheist newsgroup?

[snip wothless bullshit]

 

[Samuel W. Heywood]

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Christopher A. Lee wrote:

> On 21 Oct 2006 10:11:59 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>> From RCC catachism:
>>
>> II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD
>
> Why are you cross-posting this stupidity to an atheist newsgroup?
>
> [snip wothless bullshit]

It is because they feel that their faith requires them to preach
their stuff to the entire world.

They apparently don't even know that there are exhortations in the
Bible against trying to foist off their beliefs onto people whom they
know or ought to know they would offend by preaching at them.

Sam Heywood
-- Message handled by Pine, Version 4.62

 

[marcinmd]

Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> On 21 Oct 2006 10:11:59 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >>From RCC catachism:
> >
> >
> >II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD
>
> Why are you cross-posting this stupidity to an atheist newsgroup?
>
> [snip wothless bullshit]

The question was about how the created order reveals God..This was the
answer.You may need to switch to decaf

 

[marcinmd]

Samuel W. Heywood wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
> > On 21 Oct 2006 10:11:59 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> From RCC catachism:
> >>
> >> II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD
> >
> > Why are you cross-posting this stupidity to an atheist newsgroup?
> >
> > [snip wothless bullshit]
>
> It is because they feel that their faith requires them to preach
> their stuff to the entire world.<<

Just answering a question...Try to be brave about it
>
> They apparently don't even know that there are exhortations in the
> Bible against trying to foist off their beliefs onto people whom they
> know or ought to know they would offend by preaching at them.<<

If simply discussion of the issues are too much for you to handle,
perhaps lurking on the Internet is not a good hobby for you..Still lots
of nice weather left for Golf.

 

[Father Haskell]

marcinmd wrote:
> >
> > So? Atheism is the lack of belief in god(s). That's it. It's not a
> > philosophy and it's not a world view.
> > --
> > Robyn
> > Resident Witchypoo
>
> I think you are confusing Nilism

Nihilism. Same root as annihilate.

Nice to see you've read up on the subject.

> with Atheism... Sure, some Atheists
> could also be Nilists, same could be Anarchists etc...Stalnist
> Communists were surely Atheists and they sure did have a World View....

Nietzsche thought xianity was a nihilistic religion.

 

[Christopher A. Lee]

On 21 Oct 2006 11:42:49 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:

>
>Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>> On 21 Oct 2006 10:11:59 -0700, "marcinmd" <marcinmd@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>From RCC catachism:
>> >
>> >
>> >II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD
>>
>> Why are you cross-posting this stupidity to an atheist newsgroup?
>>
>> [snip worthless bullshit]
>
>The question was about how the created order reveals God..This was the
>answer.You may need to switch to decaf

Only because you claimed it did, moron.

Are you really so stupid as to imagine the RCC catechism means
anything outside the RCC?

You have to start without any presumptions about your god or any of
the other equivalent beliefs, and use real-world evidence and methods.
Because, duh, this is the real world outside your religion.

When you realise you can't, stop making such ridiculous claims.