Do atheists know more about Christianity than Christians?

[emkay64]

The knowledge about the bible doesn't change..or the religious terms..I thought it was interesting that they didn't..in order to believe in something completely unsubstantiated. I guess that's why it is called faith. The terms regarding art and procreation maybe cannot convey a feeling..but the terms are correct and true and constant. I don't claim to know how you feel...my question is how does a Christian follow something absolutely, completely and not understand the background foundations on their own religion. Your argument says "they just know". I don't accept that. If I had to follow something that supposedly shapes every aspect of my life then I need to know the full details in order to follow and make it my life.

You're right..I taught myself art...but from fundamentals..I wasn't just born with it. I had to develop it..and try to learn what I could from other sources. I didn't magically draw well..I had to draw a lot...I didn't naturally paint well...I had to try different things. Art comes from tangible things...religion..well..you just have to accept what someone says as true because there is no way to substantiate anything. You may not understand the content of my paintings..but you certainly can be taught.

 

[emkay64]

...oh and on the subject of "parental love"...that is NOT constant or universal. There are thousands of thousands of "parents" that ruin their children everyday. It doesn't come from love. I believe people can understand the love a parent has for a child even if they don't have them. Many many times I've seen aunts, uncles and friends behave more "parental" than many parents. That argument holds no water.

 

[timesjoke]

Does religion claim to know how humanity began? Does it claim to know what will happen for 1000 years after the rapture? Does it claim to know the guide how people should act and think?

How does any of that qualify with the crap you spouted about people in church claiming to know the "worlds knowledge"?

They claim spiritual knowledge sure, but that is all, again your just religion bashing.

OK.. your love of another is far greater than anything I could ever understand.. and it's exactly like religion and faith..

I did not say they were exactly the same Wez, I said it was the closest example I could offer to my feelings of faith. You have never loved unconditionally, you admit yourself to loving then hating your ex-girlfriend and disposing of the offspring that resulted from your time together, you have never known the feelings I have known so nothign I can say on either love or faith is something you will ever have the ability to understand.

The knowledge about the bible doesn't change..or the religious terms..I thought it was interesting that they didn't..in order to believe in something completely unsubstantiated. I guess that's why it is called faith. The terms regarding art and procreation maybe cannot convey a feeling..but the terms are correct and true and constant. I don't claim to know how you feel...my question is how does a Christian follow something absolutely, completely and not understand the background foundations on their own religion. Your argument says "they just know". I don't accept that. If I had to follow something that supposedly shapes every aspect of my life then I need to know the full details in order to follow and make it my life.

Your still missing the point, please try to read what I am posting without any assumptions. I never said "they just know", you are inserting that into what I am saying, you need to stop trying to insert things I never said and try to read and understand what I did say.

I said people "feel" their faith, that faith is not about the books or the formal expressions some factions have included in their worship. Faith does not come from the things you think you know about and that is why your baffled about how someone can have faith outside of the books, the books are expressions of faith, not the creaters of faith.


Terms covering procreation are always correct and are scientific expressions of that process, but a religious textbook is not scientific, it is a tool some people of faith use to help their journey into spiritual discovery but it is not needed to be spiritual. Remember that the ability to read is a relatively new accomplishment for humans but the belief in God in it's many ways has been there for almost all of our existence.

You're right..I taught myself art...but from fundamentals..I wasn't just born with it. I had to develop it..and try to learn what I could from other sources. I didn't magically draw well..I had to draw a lot...I didn't naturally paint well...I had to try different things. Art comes from tangible things...religion..well..you just have to accept what someone says as true because there is no way to substantiate anything. You may not understand the content of my paintings..but you certainly can be taught.

Again, your still refusing to see what I am telling you. You cannot keep saying that faith comes from books or from accepting what someone else tells you because that has nothing to do with religion in the slightest. Some may fall into that category but if your following a religion just because someone else tells you to, then you don't have faith.

Faith only comes from inside us, we feel a drive, a feeling that there is something going on that we can't explain. As your art example, people have to take time to develop our faith, to refine and grow our faith as it fits our own personal outlook. Sure we can gather and try to learn from each other similar to how you might meet with other artists and discuss art and maybe even show each other things but at the end of the day, your art and it's expression is your own, it is not given to you out of a book or handed to you from someone else.

Your art is inside you, the things you create are expressions of your artistic talent, but each example you create is not the total art you possess. My faith may be similar to the faith of other people, but it is my faith, not their faith. A religious book may be the expression of one or a group of people who felt faith, but that does not mean everything they wrote down is what I feel or believe in.

 

[emkay64]

So then faith is a feeling..based on nothing...no books, no common thoughts, no common understanding of symbolism...nothing..just a feeling..a magical feeling all encompassing? Crap..it's no wonder I'm an atheist. I guess religion can't be taught. My bad.

Freaking bible school, a baptism, and bible camp...damn it....wasted Maybe we are chosen for indoctrination into God's army. I think I'm poor stock..it's eternal condemnation for me

 

[wez]

I did not say they were exactly the same Wez, I said it was the closest example I could offer to my feelings of faith. You have never loved unconditionally, you admit yourself to loving then hating your ex-girlfriend and disposing of the offspring that resulted from your time together, you have never known the feelings I have known so nothign I can say on either love or faith is something you will ever have the ability to understand.

I'd say the unconditional love from child to parent is more encompassing as an example than the other way around.

Your point wasn't to make a point, it was to point out that I "disposed" of my "offspring" and somehow connect that it's relevant to this discussion on religion to verify that you are indeed a superior human being?

I have in fact loved and do love unconditionally, it's the only kind of love there is.

Your argument fell apart before you even got started.. should tell ya sumpin'..

 

[timesjoke]

So then faith is a feeling..based on nothing...no books, no common thoughts, no common understanding of symbolism...nothing..just a feeling..a magical feeling all encompassing? Crap..it's no wonder I'm an atheist. I guess religion can't be taught. My bad.

Freaking bible school, a baptism, and bible camp...damn it....wasted Maybe we are chosen for indoctrination into God's army. I think I'm poor stock..it's eternal condemnation for me

There are books and such but again your confusing the source of faith, not the results of faith.


All of these things you mention were created by people who already had faith and were motivated to share their feelings with other people. Churches, Bible study, even the Bible camps you speak of are the creation of people who already have faith, these things do not create faith on their own. Just like your artistic drive came from within, not from an outside source.

I'd say the unconditional love from child to parent is more encompassing as an example than the other way around.

To make the comparison you would have to feel both, being as you have not, you can't make a comparison.

Your point wasn't to make a point, it was to point out that I "disposed" of my "offspring" and somehow connect that it's relevant to this discussion on religion to verify that you are indeed a superior human being?

The fact that I felt a connection to my child so strong I could never dispose of him is also based on my faith and connection to God. You have no faith and also felt no connection to your own child to the point disposing of it was no big deal. Yes, I feel my moral possition on something like that is a better but I also agree that is my opinion.

I have in fact loved and do love unconditionally, it's the only kind of love there is.

Your argument fell apart before you even got started.. should tell ya sumpin'..

So you still love the mother of your child? The ugly things you have said about her in the last few years sure do not sound like love to me, so if you used to love her, but now you don't love her, then obviously love for you is conditional, lol.

Sorry Wez, you fail at these debates because your handicapped by your insanity.

 

[wez]

To make the comparison you would have to feel both, being as you have not, you can't make a comparison.

So what does that comparison have to do with a religious discussion?

The fact that I felt a connection to my child so strong I could never dispose of him is also based on my faith and connection to God. You have no faith and also felt no connection to your own child to the point disposing of it was no big deal. Yes, I feel my moral possition on something like that is a better but I also agree that is my opinion.

So what.. you're a superior human being? What does that comparison have to do with a religious discussion?

I never had a child to feel any connection to TJ.. we decided to terminate the pregnancy.. So your religion/faith that stresses forgiveness tells you that I did something morally unforgivable and you are obligated by God to "punnish" me for it?

So you still love the mother of your child? The ugly things you have said about her in the last few years sure do not sound like love to me, so if you used to love her, but now you don't love her, then obviously love for you is conditional, lol.

Sorry Wez, you fail at these debates because your handicapped by your insanity.

Never had a child TJ.. do you still love the mother of of your children? The ugly things you have said about her in the last few years sure do not sound like love to me, so if you used to love her, but now you don't love her, then obviously love for you is conditional, lol.

What happened to the unconditional love your wife shoulda had for you and vice versa and the "unconditional love" for the children you allow her to "whip every other day"?

TJ... you're the f cking "or else" king.. wake up..

Who's insane?

 

[timesjoke]

So what does that comparison have to do with a religious discussion?

Um.....Wez, try to pay attention, the comparison was how faith is a feelings similar to the unconditional love feeling I have as a parent to my children, the entire thing was about comparing feelings, feelings you have never experienced so I can understand your confusion on that part but still try to keep up on how the discussion has evolved.

So what.. you're a superior human being? What does that comparison have to do with a religious discussion?

Again, try to keep up, we were talking about how religion does not come from a book just like love of a child does not come from a book. You either have it or you don't.

I never had a child to feel any connection to TJ.. we decided to terminate the pregnancy.. So your religion that stresses forgivenenss tells you that I did something morally unforgivable and you are obligated by God to "punnish" me for it?

First of all my faith offers forgiveness from God for sin to those who ADMIT they have done wrong. You feel what you did was good, so how can God forgive you?

As far as me trying to punish you, I don't see the connection, I am not trying to punish you Wez, I even spent a considerable amount of time trying to use the least attacking descriptive word in my attempt to not punish you. I can't erase the fact you disposed of your own child, but if you really believe you did nothign wrong, me commenting on it cannot be seen as a punishment either.

Never had a child TJ..

Yes you did, playing semantics does not change the fact that you and her created a life and you disposed of it. That life was part of both of you and you killed a little bit of yourself in the process. If you have to use semantics to hide from the reality of your actions then you admit your even feeling shame for your deed, and actually that is a good thing. Feeling shame is the first step to admitting you were wrong and admitting you were wrong is how you find forgiveness.

do you still love the mother of of your children?

To a certain extent, yes I do. I could never live a life of love with her again because that requires trust that cannot exist between us anymore. I never have understood how some peopel go from love to hate, I may not like some of her actions, but I definately do not hate my ex.

She is the mother of my children, children I love deepely, how could I hate the person who helped me bring them to life?

The ugly things you have said about her in the last few years sure do not sound like love to me, so if you used to love her, but now you don't love her, then obviously love for you is conditional, lol.

Nice try Wez, but I have never said anything ugly about my ex on a personal level. I have complained about some of the things she had done and yes, some of it has really upset me, but I am incapable of hating her, as I said above, to a certain degree I do still love her, we shared some very strong feelings and traveled a big piece of life together and I would not trade that time and lose my children, I charish that time even thought it had some bad parts to it.

What happened to the unconditional love your wife shoulda had for you

That would be a question for her, not me. My guess would be she lost her faith in God and could no longer be with me because she felt bad that I still had my faith, but again that is just a guess, nobody knows for sure what is in the other person's head.

and vice versa and the "unconditional love for the children you allow her to "whip every other day"?

Oh my, reaching pretty hard on that one Wez, you really are desperate to "get even", lol.

I suppose you would kill her and run away with the children? Is that the alternative Wez? Spanking is legal in Florida, the schools here still have "swats" for crying out loud. Spanking that does not leave big marks is not considered child abuse in Florida, maybe it does in other States, but not in Florida. I don't personally believe spanking is reasonable for most punishment dealing with a child, but if my ex does, there is no legal way to stop it.

Who's insane?

That would be you.



Anyway, as usual I always kick myself each time I try to give you the benefit of the doubt that "this time" Wez might actually be reasonable, and this is no exception.

My point was simply that book knowledge of religious literature does not give anyone an understanding of religion because religion is 100% internal. Without a feeling of faith, a feeling of something more, reading a Bible or going to church will be difficult to understand. It is liek a guy who has his girlfriend drag him to a poem reading. The girl is having a great time but the guy is sitting there clueless and bored to tears, maybe even angry over being forced to listen to "this garbage" just to appease his girl.


I understand the confusion peopel without faith have when looking at the many religions, I really do. All I ask is don't attack religion and faith just because you can't grasp it's existence.

I remind everyone that perceptions are not always the best way to decide what is real or not, germs existed even though we did not possess the ability to perceive them just like the Earth was always round even thought people thougth it was flat for the same reason of not being able to perceive it's roundness.

 

[wez]

Whatever.. lets just say you're a superior human being of faith and call er a day.. see ya.

 

[wez]

As far as me trying to punish you, I don't see the connection, I am not trying to punish you Wez, I even spent a considerable amount of time trying to use the least attacking descriptive word in my attempt to not punish you. I can't erase the fact you disposed of your own child, but if you really believe you did nothign wrong, me commenting on it cannot be seen as a punishment either.

And the best you could come up with was offspring/child disposer?

English is not your friend..

 

[phreakwars]

Nope, I stand by my last statement. The more people educate themselves about religion, the more they know how full of **** it is.

Just ask former Catholic priest Ray Fontaine:

http://www.deism.com/to-natures-god.net/
.
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[phreakwars]

 

[timesjoke]

And as I already pointed out, a college student who completes advanced Spanish classes can barely communiccate when they travel to a spanish speaking Country because there is a big difference between book knowledge and what actually happens.

Knowing a passage out of a religious textbook does not mean they understand "the motivation" behind that passage. There is the gap that cannot be breached by an Atheist. They cannot understand the driving love and faith that inspired the works they look at.




This really is like a debate about the "chicken or the egg" in the Atheist world. Atheists believe the religious books created the religion, and that is why they study the books trying to understand the religion, it is like what emkay said, she thought religion was taking someone's elses word about what was true, and religion is nothing like that.


The only way to understand religion is to feel the spiritual connection first, then look at the other tools such as the Bible.





Looking at the Bible without the spiritual drive is like trying to watch a 3-D movie without the glasses.

 

[phreakwars]

Knowing a passage out of a religious textbook does not mean they understand "the motivation" behind that passage

Just another example of TJ trying to convince himself the findings by pew research are wrong, the reports are wrong. Christians DO know the bible better because they have "FAITH".

Faith, of course, is MUCH more relevant then actual literal interpretation of scripture.

Mr. Too stupid to realize he's stupid, also doesn't realize, the VATICAN themselves, DON'T buy all that Dogma bullshit.

As an example, take note of the "FOOTNOTES" from official vatican interpretations of Revelations 13

http://www.vatican.v...0839/__P12W.HTM

The ****ing CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA doesn't even buy any of that dogma bullshit.

"the motivation" he rants on about....... ****er just shows he has no god damn idea what he's talking about.

The god damn Council of Constantinople are the ones who made Jesus (had he actually existed) into a ****ing Messiah figure, and that was for political reasons.

Remember, all other then Catholic versions of Christianity (protestant), all said the Catholics were full of ****, and liberated (liberals) themselves from the church and made up their own version of "faith".

The funny part about that, is if anybody took the time to look it up, they would see for themselves the church says these stories are constantly being interpreted wrong to give them a more supernatural aura, not by the church, but by morons like TJ who wanna talk **** about motivation, and spiritual guidance.

In short, Christianity is a fine religious book as a teaching tool. It's just too bad the Christians never actually read it.
.
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[timesjoke]

And yet your the one spouting all the hate and calling people names and actually your also telling lies, let me offer an example:

"Just another example of TJ trying to convince himself the findings by pew research are wrong, the reports are wrong. Christians DO know the bible better because they have "FAITH"."


I never said that, I never said anything close to that, this is the kind of thing Atheists must do to justify their hate of religion. They create lies and excuses to justify their own hate and reaction to religion. Atheists simply pretend something bad was done my religious people so it gives them an excuse to be bad, but look at how Bender reacted to an honest debate about religion......he attacked, he made nasty coments, he slandered, and he told lies......





I already admitted that it was very possible for an Atheist to have superior knowledge of words in a Bible but just knowing some words in a Bible does not provide anyone with a full understanding of religion. Faith does not come from a book, an Atheist can gain understanding of some pieces of religion framework but they can never grasp the concept of faith, this was my point.



Bender, you do know that God never created a religion don't you?

Man created the many religions in his futile attempt to understand and worship God. Man could never create a perfect representation of God because we are not perfect. We do our best but we are doomed to fall short. Don't mistake various religious books or creations of man with faith.


Faith comes from God, religion comes from man.

 

[eddo]

wow Phreak, gettin' a bit upset are ya?

 

[timesjoke]

wow Phreak, gettin' a bit upset are ya?

Of course he is upset, every Atheist acts this hateful to religion because deep down inside, they know they are wrong.


They are God's creatures too, they feel the "something more" tapping on their shoulder but they deny that call, they reject that call. So they are really angry at themselves, but they express it by turning their anger outward, outward at those of us who have been strong enough to accept the call and admit we are not the most powerful force in the Universe as the selfish Atheists want to believe they are.

 

[emkay64]

Weird..I don't believe to be the most powerful thing in the universe...not by a long shot. I just don't believe in that. I think there has to be something else...I just don't believe it's something we can comprehend yet. The fact that everyone follows something without any knowledge, makes me suspicious is all. Religion seems too commercial..and TJ said people can just change it to fit their life and make it mean whatever.

"As your art example, people have to take time to develop our faith, to refine and grow our faith as it fits our own personal outlook." ~ TJ (figured I better quote to avoid being called a liar)

That in itself makes it seem less special to me shrugs .

If I felt someone tapping me on the shoulder..depending where I was and the time..God may get kicked in the balls..dammit...maybe that's why I'm an atheist? I missed the call... weeping .

 

[wez]

I believe whatever TJ says.. he can beat me up in the real world..

 

[timesjoke]

Weird..I don't believe to be the most powerful thing in the universe...not by a long shot. I just don't believe in that. I think there has to be something else...I just don't believe it's something we can comprehend yet. The fact that everyone follows something without any knowledge, makes me suspicious is all.

Again, no matter how much I try to educate you on why your missing the point, you just seem to be intentionally ignoring the key that faith has nothign to do with following something without any knowledge. You have the knowledge of how you "FEEL" that has you looking for more, looking for other expressions of faith just like you might congregate with other people who share your love of art.

Religion seems too commercial..

In many ways it is, I can agree with that to a certain degree, but art is also very commercial in many ways, does the commercial element mean there are no true artists? You can't blame God and faith for the weakness of man.

and TJ said people can just change it to fit their life and make it mean whatever. That in itself makes it seem less special to me shrugs .

I did?

Where did I ever say that?

Your putting words in my mouth again to give you an excuse to talk sh!t, you need to stop that garbage and pay attention.


Do you think worshiping God can only be done at the permission of a specific religion Emkay? Is that waht all this is all about? You trying to force all people of faith into a tidy definition to make you feel better about rejecting God? Well I am not going to sit here and let you tel lie after lie just to make yourself feel better.

Faith does not change, you either feel faith or you do not. Religion is an expression of faith, and many people spend years looking at a lot of different religions trying to find a place that fits their feelings.

If I felt someone tapping me on the shoulder..depending where I was and the time..God may get kicked in the balls..dammit...maybe that's why I'm an atheist? I missed the call... weeping .

You didn't miss the call, your hearing it right now, you are talking about believing there is "something else" but at the same time, your fighting against your deep seated bias against religions so once you can let go of your bias, I believe you will find your faith.


Religion is something different, expression of your faith is a purely personal exercise, and each of us may seem similar in where we attent church or who we gather with for study, but at the end of the day, faith is between one person, and his/her God. No church, no religious text, no ritual behavior can change that.