FOUNDATION OF CHRISTIANITY

"Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:Xeadnbog-6KRdH3YnZ2dnUVZ_hynnZ2d@adelphia.com...
> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:45e0cae9$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> I am sure, that lots of stories in the Bible are "fiction" or at best
>> semi-historical, But then they are not meant to be History nor Science,
>> but are mere vehicles to illustrate moral and ethical issues and
>> standards. That in itself does in no way diminish their veracity and
>> importance.
>
> On this we can indeed agree, it is those that insist that the Bible must
> be the inerrant word of God and thus must be true and taken literally that
> are at issue.
If you want to claim limited Biblical truth, you need to set the limit,
and who can do that? Therefore it is better to regard the Bible as the
inerrant Word of almighty God in poetic format and therefore true by
definition. The only error can occur in its interpretation. You don't even
have to be a great orator or lawyer to interpret the Bible as the authors
intended.



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"Gospel Bretts" <bretts1962@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:us32u2952ljk8i15qq4oq5lpri1lv92vac@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:32:26 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
> <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>>"Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>news:jIOdnUYLVrc6eX3YnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>>> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>> news:45e0cae1$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>>> "Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:g0ppt2l3q08bc4b90dg6i19ivn7t1il15o@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:18:07 -0500, Christopher A.Lee
>>>>> <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:29:04 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>"Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:67kkt255767b21pl9a9p2rgd76e0n3gfoa@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On 19 Feb 2007 16:35:32 -0800, "flightlessvacuum"
>>>>>>>> <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>On Feb 20, 12:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or
>>>>>>>>>> something,
>>>>>>>>>> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's
>>>>>>>>>> right!
>>>>>>>>>> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apples and oranges, really. A real atheist wouldn't even engage in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> above kind of nonsense. There would be no need for him to
>>>>>>>> continually
>>>>>>>> press the point that there is no God nor would there be a need for
>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>> to continually try to disparage the beliefs of others. For Bill M,
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> "atheism" is faith of a curious kind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In your idiotic 'opinion' just like your religion!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>He's paranoid. We don't "disparage the beliefs of others".
>>>>>
>>>>> Paranoid? THat's a laugh. Go study the definition of "paranoid" to
>>>>> learn what it really means. As a group, "atheists" _do_ disparage the
>>>>> beliefs of others. You yourself provide a good example of this. Review
>>>>> how many times the beliefs of others have been called "delusional" or
>>>>> "moronic" in the last couple weeks.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Like most
>>>>>>theists he has neither the common sense nor courtesy to keep his
>>>>>>beliefs to himself.
>>>>>
>>>>> You have absolutely no clue what my beliefs are, apart from the few
>>>>> that have been appropriate to the discussion. I really don't recall
>>>>> ever discussing them with you. If you don't like people discussing
>>>>> their beliefs, you don't have to read these kinds of threads.
>>>>>
>>>> Christopher has been agitating for the abolition of the free speech
>>>> provision in the constitution and the imposition of strict censorship
>>>> laws for years. But praise the Lord, apart from outlawing religion in
>>>> schools, he is making little headway.
>>>
>>> While I agree with you Christopher is a bit of menace to society, there
>>> is
>>> not now nor has there ever been a ban on religion in school. In fact to
>>> speak of History would be impossible without talking of Religion. Also
>>> the
>>> individuals are free to pray in a non-disruptive manner if they wish and
>>> even read their Bible or any Holy book they wish during non-instruction
>>> time. There has been great confusion about this at the School level and
>>> most of it is unfortunately fueled by those making the false claim that
>>> the Supreme Court outlawed the Bible, Prayer and God from School. This
>>> never happened, but what did happen was an end to forced prayer, forced
>>> Bible study and Forced reverence to any God. Of course there are notable
>>> exceptions for instance the illegal insertion of Under God into what was
>>> otherwise a secular pledge, but I have never been for forced patriotism
>>> either. Lastly I leave you with this thought, for as long as their are
>>> Tests in School there will always be Prayer.
>>
>> I see. All books can be proscribed ("forced") reading and study
>> material
>>in class, the Bible being the sole exception, because it makes atheists in
>>class feel uncomfortable. LOL
>> It's time we get back to democracy and government by the people and
>> for
>>the people, instead of government by decrees from an unelected supreme
>>court.
>
> LOL. The dickhead Pastor Frank is still here. I look forward to once
> again reading your inanities, Pastor Frank. Your stupidity is not only
> amusing, it reinforces my conviction that Xians are completely lacking
> in simple logical abilities.
>
Tell us about your superior "logic abilities" you keep bragging about
and do demonstrate them occasionally. Mere "convictions" don't count.



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"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:45E1106A.431776BB@netvigator.com...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> Most of these sentiments are well represented by Christ, except, that
>> God represents an overriding principles which no man-made laws can put to
>> naught. I.e. this is enshrined in the American constitution. "The
>> proposition that all men were created equal" is one of those God-given
>> rights, which then cannot be abolished by man.
>
> [CHUCKLE] It was MAN Frank who desired those nice things, early man, and
> he
> made up gods to protect them and make them work, in the absence of
> established
> Rule of Law.
> He made up his laws later; when a developed intelligence made it possible.
>
>> Therefore what is given by God is a divine right which cannot be
>> abolished by man, however what is given by man, can be taken away by men.
>
> See above
>
Non sequitur. You concede then, that what government bestows, government
can take away. We object to that and prefer having our right vested in God,
where no one can take them away.



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"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:45E12B08.949F5316@netvigator.com...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1172081769.902448.177620@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Feb 20, 11:55 pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>> >> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>> >> > On Feb 19, 3:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables,
>> >> >> >contradictions,
>> >> >> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny,
>> >> >> >destruction,
>> >> >> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history
>> >> >> >and
>> >> >> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and
>> >> >> >totally untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
>> >>
>> >> >> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too,
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The
>> >> >> myths
>> >> >> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and
>> >> >> are
>> >> >> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
>> >> >> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There
>> >> >> is a
>> >> >> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
>> >> >> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a Bible-fixated
>> >> >> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
>> >>
>> >> > As an atheist who loves literaure, I had to read the Bible in order
>> >> > to
>> >> > understand all the references. This is just my opinion, but if
>> >> > you're
>> >> > telling me the Bible is good fiction (I agree that it's fiction)
>> >> > then
>> >> > Celine DIon is a good singer. I realize it's ancient writing, and as
>> >> > such holds a certain historical interest, but I think the writing is
>> >> > generally strident, contradictory, repetitive, and boring when it's
>> >> > not psychedelically weird. I think there are many examples of
>> >> > earlier
>> >> > and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>> >> > Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>> >>
>> >> How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary
>> >> Philosophy
>> >> of life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?
>> >
>> > I didn't miss it, Frank, I just wan't impressed. Jesus seemed like a
>> > prissy ***** to me. And read Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not A
>> > Christian" for some criticisms into the character of Jesus Christ, he
>> > said it far better than I ever could. Give me the philosophy of life
>> > explained and demonstrated by Shakespeare any day.
>> > And I do love literature. How can you bury your nose in the Bible and
>> > never experience the writings of Jane Austen, Laurence Sterne,
>> > Fielding, TS Eliot, Homer, Faulkner, and plenty of other brilliant
>> > authors far superior to the anally retentive goatherders with an
>> > agenda who conjured up the Bible?
>>
>> Those are required reading at most schools, and none of their authors
>> are much into philosophy. Shakespeare did hit upon one important part of
>> the
>> puzzle of life when he said: Life is of the stuff dreams are made of. But
>> most authors follow the ancient Greek tradition of illustrating the lives
>> of
>> fate driven people, who act in the throws of their own folly.
>> Christ is altogether different and what He said deals with how people
>> feel about things.
>
> I have told you countless times, there is no way of knowing what Christ
> ever
> said
>
Irrelevant! By your standards all authors living or dead are under
suspicion of having had their words edited over time etc. That's just as
likely as you being merely a semi literate impostor using the handle of the
REAL Bob Young who is far more intelligent than you appear to be. Did I blow
your cover, or did I? ROFL



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"Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:I6udnWggIOTwzXzYnZ2dnUVZ_q6vnZ2d@adelphia.com...
> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
> news:45e0f807$0$16342$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>> "Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>> news:v4qdnbBhSfKbeH3YnZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>>> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>> news:45e0caed$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>>> "Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:37mdnVHEvvfulELYnZ2dnUVZ_rSjnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> Most Christians do not make the Spiritual Error of believing they can
>>>>> know the full will of the Divine by reading a book written by men for
>>>>> men of a long distant time. They look for the Divine message that
>>>>> speaks
>>>>> to the heart and the soul and not to words written on the page that
>>>>> hide
>>>>> the Divine Truths.
>>>>
>>>> Communications, despite its limitations are part of the divine plan.
>>>
>>> It helps to not confuse our desires with the Divine will.
>>
>> What divine will? You mean the one expressed through scripture? Or do
>> you claim to have a direct line to God, needing no books?
>
> No book is needed to know the teachings of the Divine. Pagans have no
> sacred or Divinely inspired writings and yet we have always known the
> Truths that your Jesus passed down to you. Love is the fulfillment of the
> Law has been known to us since the beginning. I suggest you take the
> advice as written in Job 12:7-10, I know many Pagans including myself are
> familiar with and agree with the sentiments within it.
> "But ask the Beasts, and they shall teach thee: and the fowls and the air,
> and they shall tell thee: Or Speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee,
> and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all
> these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this? In whose hand is the
> soul of every living thing, and the breath of mankind?"
> Also in Jeremiah 8:7:
> "Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle
> and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but many
> people know not the judgment of the Lord."
> This clearly speaks to the fact that the text is not needed to discover
> the will of the Divine you merely must look and listen with your Spirit
> and your Heart the spiritual wisdom there is to be found if you are
> willing to listen.
You sound like another Jim Jones or Koresh looking for converts. We
born-again Christians would rather hold fast to the inerrant Word of God as
found in our NT Bibles.



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On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:33:29 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

> Christ isn't about "Divine Truth" nor "Universal Wisdom" etc. etc.

.... In fact, Frank's version of "Christ", isn't about anything, that
anyone other than Frank, suggests.

The bible contains many descriptions of God, but Frank, has deemed
that one tiny aspect of God, is the most important, and so denies all
others, unless he himself states it.
 
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:19:47 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

>"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> So if the Bible isn't accurate why base your life on it?
>>
> Tell us what "accuracy" you need to implement Christ's directives below.
>

That also counts as lying, Frank.
 
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:36:49 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

>"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:s0jkt2h3me6gdgm1pa4jbjq6rt579uqo76@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:46:26 -0500, Padraic Brown
>> <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation on
>>>the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
>>>trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's right!
>>>You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>>
>> And you are a deliberately nasty, bigoted liar who knows that atheism
>> isn't a religion and doesn't proselytise.
>> Shove your crucifix up your ass and bugger yourself with it.
>>
> Atheist rebuttals always end in violence, don't they?


Not at all, Frank. If you lie about people, and offer gratuitous
insults, it is only reasonable to expect the same in return.
 
On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:22:14 -0500, "Chris Morris"
<Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote:

>
>"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>news:45e0cae1$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>> "Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
snip
>>>
>>> You have absolutely no clue what my beliefs are, apart from the few
>>> that have been appropriate to the discussion.

Irrelevant.


>>> I really don't recall ever discussing them with you.

You invited us to join in, by xposting to an atheist NG.

>>>If you don't like people discussing their beliefs, you don't have
>>>to read these kinds of threads.

If you don't like atheists deriding your superstition, them don't post
it to atheist NGs.

>>>
>> Christopher has been agitating for the abolition of the free speech
>> provision in the constitution and the imposition of strict censorship laws
>> for years.

No he hasn't Frank, and you know it; So why do you lie about it?

The constitution gives you freedom of speech, and Christopher, and
every other American atheist will fight to defend that.

What they will fight against, is YOUR idea, that freedom of speech,
gives you the right to force your religious views on other peoples
children.

While you do not want your children force fed, Islam, or Hinduism, or
Satanism, you complain like crazy when Hindus, or Muslims, or
Satanists, are protected by the same rules.


>>But praise the Lord, apart from outlawing religion in schools,
>> he is making little headway.
>
>While I agree with you Christopher is a bit of menace to society,

....But then, I imagine that applies to anyone who forcibly disagrees
with you.


>there is
>not now nor has there ever been a ban on religion in school.

You waste your time.

Frank cares nothing for the truth.

>In fact to
>speak of History would be impossible without talking of Religion. Also the
>individuals are free to pray in a non-disruptive manner if they wish and
>even read their Bible or any Holy book they wish during non-instruction
>time. There has been great confusion about this at the School level and most
>of it is unfortunately fueled by those making the false claim that the
>Supreme Court outlawed the Bible, Prayer and God from School.

Oh dear.

This isn't going to go down well, with Frank,or several other xtian
fanatics in these groups.
 
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:32:26 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:

>"Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>news:jIOdnUYLVrc6eX3YnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@adelphia.com...
snip

>ced patriotism
>> either. Lastly I leave you with this thought, for as long as their are
>> Tests in School there will always be Prayer.
> I see. All books can be proscribed ("forced") reading and study material
>in class, the Bible being the sole exception, because it makes atheists in
>class feel uncomfortable. LOL

I told you that it wouldn't go down well.


> It's time we get back to democracy and government by the people and for
>the people, instead of government by decrees from an unelected supreme
>court.


Frank, that supreme court, is populated by judges, appointed by the
governments which you, the people, democratically elect.
 
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:35:19 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:22:14 -0500, "Chris Morris"
><Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>news:45e0cae1$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>> "Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>snip
>>>>
>>>> You have absolutely no clue what my beliefs are, apart from the few
>>>> that have been appropriate to the discussion.
>
>Irrelevant.
>
>>>> I really don't recall ever discussing them with you.
>
>You invited us to join in, by xposting to an atheist NG.
>
>>>>If you don't like people discussing their beliefs, you don't have
>>>>to read these kinds of threads.

Translation: like most theists he sociopathically sees nothing wrong
with telling them to people who otherwise wouldn't know how deluded he
is.

>If you don't like atheists deriding your superstition, them don't post
>it to atheist NGs.

Yep.

>>> Christopher has been agitating for the abolition of the free speech
>>> provision in the constitution and the imposition of strict censorship laws
>>> for years.

Why doesn't the barefaced liar cite one single place where I do that,
with context?

>No he hasn't Frank, and you know it; So why do you lie about it?
>
>The constitution gives you freedom of speech, and Christopher, and
>every other American atheist will fight to defend that.

It also gives us the freedom of speech to tell them where to shove it
when they push it where it is neither wanted nor needed. And to treat
bullying psychopaths like Frank as what they are.

It's not even a constitutional issue but one of common sense and
courtesy towards those outside his religion.

And the negative reaction to his nastiness, stupidity and bullying.

>What they will fight against, is YOUR idea, that freedom of speech,
>gives you the right to force your religious views on other peoples
>children.

Yep.

>While you do not want your children force fed, Islam, or Hinduism, or
>Satanism, you complain like crazy when Hindus, or Muslims, or
>Satanists, are protected by the same rules.
>
>>>But praise the Lord, apart from outlawing religion in schools,
>>> he is making little headway.
>>
>>While I agree with you Christopher is a bit of menace to society,
>
>...But then, I imagine that applies to anyone who forcibly disagrees
>with you.

Remember, this is the sociopath who rudely and stupidly talks as
though his "the Divine" were real, universally granted etc to those
who don't already believe as he does.

Who like most theists doesn't like this being pointed out.

Who resorts to stupidity, slander and nastiness when told to put up or
shut up.

>>there is
>>not now nor has there ever been a ban on religion in school.
>
>You waste your time.
>
>Frank cares nothing for the truth.
>
>>In fact to
>>speak of History would be impossible without talking of Religion. Also the
>>individuals are free to pray in a non-disruptive manner if they wish and
>>even read their Bible or any Holy book they wish during non-instruction
>>time. There has been great confusion about this at the School level and most
>>of it is unfortunately fueled by those making the false claim that the
>>Supreme Court outlawed the Bible, Prayer and God from School.
>
>Oh dear.
>
>This isn't going to go down well, with Frank,or several other xtian
>fanatics in these groups.
>
>
 
"Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kts1u21mplklmdkmura3i7kmr7knqjf79f@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:22:14 -0500, "Chris Morris"
> <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>news:45e0cae1$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>> "Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:g0ppt2l3q08bc4b90dg6i19ivn7t1il15o@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:18:07 -0500, Christopher A.Lee
>>>> <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:29:04 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>"Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:67kkt255767b21pl9a9p2rgd76e0n3gfoa@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On 19 Feb 2007 16:35:32 -0800, "flightlessvacuum"
>>>>>>> <flightlessvacuumster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>On Feb 20, 12:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, you are once again falling into your usual trap of fixation
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the negative. One would think you're really a Moslem or something,
>>>>>>>>> trying to prosletyse your own religion over others. Oh, that's
>>>>>>>>> right!
>>>>>>>>> You're an Atheist trying to prosletyse your religion over others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apples and oranges, really. A real atheist wouldn't even engage in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> above kind of nonsense. There would be no need for him to
>>>>>>> continually
>>>>>>> press the point that there is no God nor would there be a need for
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> to continually try to disparage the beliefs of others. For Bill M,
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> "atheism" is faith of a curious kind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In your idiotic 'opinion' just like your religion!
>>>>>
>>>>>He's paranoid. We don't "disparage the beliefs of others".
>>>>
>>>> Paranoid? THat's a laugh. Go study the definition of "paranoid" to
>>>> learn what it really means. As a group, "atheists" _do_ disparage the
>>>> beliefs of others. You yourself provide a good example of this. Review
>>>> how many times the beliefs of others have been called "delusional" or
>>>> "moronic" in the last couple weeks.
>>>>
>>>>> Like most
>>>>>theists he has neither the common sense nor courtesy to keep his
>>>>>beliefs to himself.
>>>>
>>>> You have absolutely no clue what my beliefs are, apart from the few
>>>> that have been appropriate to the discussion. I really don't recall
>>>> ever discussing them with you. If you don't like people discussing
>>>> their beliefs, you don't have to read these kinds of threads.
>>>>
>>> Christopher has been agitating for the abolition of the free speech
>>> provision in the constitution and the imposition of strict censorship
>>> laws
>>> for years. But praise the Lord, apart from outlawing religion in
>>> schools,
>>> he is making little headway.
>>
>>While I agree with you Christopher is a bit of menace to society, there is
>>not now nor has there ever been a ban on religion in school.
>
> Legally, perhaps not, but in practice there often is.

This is something that is being corrected many School Officals are still
making errors in this, but there are many efforts that are working to better
educate the educators on this matter including the First Amendement Project.


>>In fact to
>>speak of History would be impossible without talking of Religion. Also the
>>individuals are free to pray in a non-disruptive manner if they wish and
>>even read their Bible or any Holy book they wish during non-instruction
>>time. There has been great confusion about this at the School level and
>>most
>>of it is unfortunately fueled by those making the false claim that the
>>Supreme Court outlawed the Bible, Prayer and God from School. This never
>>happened, but what did happen was an end to forced prayer, forced Bible
>>study and Forced reverence to any God.
>
> Whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen. To be honest,
> most kids (unless brought up in a heavily religious environment) are
> not going to be really impressed one way or the other with (official)
> prayer in schools. Kids that are brought up secular would mumble
> through and then promptly forget about it. Just like the Pledge.

Perhaps but I know I being someone of a non-Christian faith would not have
been silent with a prayer issue and in fact when it was attempted at my High
School Graduation I was not silent.


>>Of course there are notable
>>exceptions for instance the illegal insertion of Under God into what was
>>otherwise a secular pledge, but I have never been for forced patriotism
>>either. Lastly I leave you with this thought, for as long as their are
>>Tests
>>in School there will always be Prayer.
>
> That is certainly true! And oh for the poor Atheist kids that have
> absolutely no recourse except for pre English test despair! ;)))
>
> Padraic
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>
 
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:45e15f1e$0$16375$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:Xeadnbog-6KRdH3YnZ2dnUVZ_hynnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>> news:45e0cae9$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> I am sure, that lots of stories in the Bible are "fiction" or at best
>>> semi-historical, But then they are not meant to be History nor Science,
>>> but are mere vehicles to illustrate moral and ethical issues and
>>> standards. That in itself does in no way diminish their veracity and
>>> importance.
>>
>> On this we can indeed agree, it is those that insist that the Bible must
>> be the inerrant word of God and thus must be true and taken literally
>> that are at issue.
> If you want to claim limited Biblical truth, you need to set the limit,
> and who can do that? Therefore it is better to regard the Bible as the
> inerrant Word of almighty God in poetic format and therefore true by
> definition. The only error can occur in its interpretation. You don't even
> have to be a great orator or lawyer to interpret the Bible as the authors
> intended.

Well there are in fact many problems with your assumptions in that matter
first is the problem of Ancient Hebrew, which without vowel markings was in
fact never a precise language. This is why debate plays a central role in
Jewish Tradition since there can not be any certainty that you have the
right translation and reading for the words in the Torah. The second issue
is we do not have the original texts of the Authors of any of the books of
the Bible nor do we have second third or even fourth hand copies of the
texts. We have is many books that were handed were copied and recopied
mostly by non-professional scribes who were simply those in the Early Church
who could read and write at greater or lesser levels. Now there is also the
issue of both the intentional and unintentional changes to the texts that
have occurred over the years as well. We know that the Bible has been
changed over the Centuries in many ways a conservative estimate was 30,000
places of changes, we of course now know this is way lower than what is
actually occurred. Textual critics, theological scholars that study the
Bible in it's oldest forms seeking to reconstruct the original autograph as
closely as possible, agree that the Bible has changed and often done so for
theological reasons of the scribes. When the scholars look at a text and
find different readings one of the measures they use is the more difficult
reading is most often the correct one since the Scribes were more likely to
change a text to make it easier not harder. There are also other issues
including the writings we have are not all written by the Authors they have
been attributed to, we know this by comparing known texts with the styles of
the suspect text also in the dating of texts. For instance it is generally
accepted by Scholars that 2 Peter was not in fact written by Peter, and most
of the letters attributed to Paul and passages of some that were written by
Paul have been written or altered at later times and by other authors. The
whole subject of the Early Church history and how the New Testament books
were chosen is rather fascinating to anyone taking the time to research it a
bit and very enlightening. The point is not to say there are not Spiritual
Truths in the Bible for they are most assuredly there, but the Bible itself
was written by men for others of their own time and in a distance place and
can not be read literally and objectively.
 
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:45e15f29$0$16375$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
> news:45E12B08.949F5316@netvigator.com...
>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1172081769.902448.177620@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>>> > On Feb 20, 11:55 pm, "Pastor Frank" <P...@christfirst.edu> wrote:
>>> >> "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> >> news:1171932846.054146.59080@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>>> >> > On Feb 19, 3:46 pm, Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:16 -0500, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net>
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >> >The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables,
>>> >> >> >contradictions,
>>> >> >> >human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny,
>>> >> >> >destruction,
>>> >> >> >barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history
>>> >> >> >and
>>> >> >> >certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and
>>> >> >> >totally untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
>>> >>
>>> >> >> There's a lot of good ethical and moral foundation in there, too,
>>> >> >> but
>>> >> >> you always leave that sort of thing out of your diatribes. The
>>> >> >> myths
>>> >> >> are generally inspiring, often teaching good behaviour traits and
>>> >> >> are
>>> >> >> usually engaging stories. The Bible isn't intended to be "accurate
>>> >> >> history". On the whole, it is actually pretty good fiction. There
>>> >> >> is a
>>> >> >> fairly recent retelling of the Bible's subtext (Richard Elliott
>>> >> >> Friedman's "The Hidden Book in the Bible"); once you get away from
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> Bible as a Bible and look at it as literature, even a
>>> >> >> Bible-fixated
>>> >> >> "atheist" such as yourself can enjoy what merits it offers.
>>> >>
>>> >> > As an atheist who loves literaure, I had to read the Bible in order
>>> >> > to
>>> >> > understand all the references. This is just my opinion, but if
>>> >> > you're
>>> >> > telling me the Bible is good fiction (I agree that it's fiction)
>>> >> > then
>>> >> > Celine DIon is a good singer. I realize it's ancient writing, and
>>> >> > as
>>> >> > such holds a certain historical interest, but I think the writing
>>> >> > is
>>> >> > generally strident, contradictory, repetitive, and boring when it's
>>> >> > not psychedelically weird. I think there are many examples of
>>> >> > earlier
>>> >> > and better writing from other cultures than the Bible. Homer,
>>> >> > Gilgamesh, Monkey (from China), just to name a few.
>>> >>
>>> >> How can you "love literature" and miss the extraordinary
>>> >> Philosophy
>>> >> of life explained and demonstrated by Jesus Christ entirely?
>>> >
>>> > I didn't miss it, Frank, I just wan't impressed. Jesus seemed like a
>>> > prissy ***** to me. And read Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not A
>>> > Christian" for some criticisms into the character of Jesus Christ, he
>>> > said it far better than I ever could. Give me the philosophy of life
>>> > explained and demonstrated by Shakespeare any day.
>>> > And I do love literature. How can you bury your nose in the Bible and
>>> > never experience the writings of Jane Austen, Laurence Sterne,
>>> > Fielding, TS Eliot, Homer, Faulkner, and plenty of other brilliant
>>> > authors far superior to the anally retentive goatherders with an
>>> > agenda who conjured up the Bible?
>>>
>>> Those are required reading at most schools, and none of their
>>> authors
>>> are much into philosophy. Shakespeare did hit upon one important part of
>>> the
>>> puzzle of life when he said: Life is of the stuff dreams are made of.
>>> But
>>> most authors follow the ancient Greek tradition of illustrating the
>>> lives of
>>> fate driven people, who act in the throws of their own folly.
>>> Christ is altogether different and what He said deals with how
>>> people
>>> feel about things.
>>
>> I have told you countless times, there is no way of knowing what Christ
>> ever
>> said
>>
> Irrelevant! By your standards all authors living or dead are under
> suspicion of having had their words edited over time etc. That's just as
> likely as you being merely a semi literate impostor using the handle of
> the REAL Bob Young who is far more intelligent than you appear to be. Did
> I blow your cover, or did I? ROFL
Actually Frank in the Ancient world this was a well known problem and if you
read the Bible carefully you will even see it mentioned in the passages.
Scribes often changed the original authors words when they were copying
them.
 
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:45e15f30$0$16375$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> "Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:I6udnWggIOTwzXzYnZ2dnUVZ_q6vnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>> news:45e0f807$0$16342$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>> "Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>> news:v4qdnbBhSfKbeH3YnZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>>>> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>>> news:45e0caed$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>>>> "Chris Morris" <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:37mdnVHEvvfulELYnZ2dnUVZ_rSjnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most Christians do not make the Spiritual Error of believing they can
>>>>>> know the full will of the Divine by reading a book written by men for
>>>>>> men of a long distant time. They look for the Divine message that
>>>>>> speaks
>>>>>> to the heart and the soul and not to words written on the page that
>>>>>> hide
>>>>>> the Divine Truths.
>>>>>
>>>>> Communications, despite its limitations are part of the divine
>>>>> plan.
>>>>
>>>> It helps to not confuse our desires with the Divine will.
>>>
>>> What divine will? You mean the one expressed through scripture? Or do
>>> you claim to have a direct line to God, needing no books?
>>
>> No book is needed to know the teachings of the Divine. Pagans have no
>> sacred or Divinely inspired writings and yet we have always known the
>> Truths that your Jesus passed down to you. Love is the fulfillment of the
>> Law has been known to us since the beginning. I suggest you take the
>> advice as written in Job 12:7-10, I know many Pagans including myself are
>> familiar with and agree with the sentiments within it.
>> "But ask the Beasts, and they shall teach thee: and the fowls and the
>> air, and they shall tell thee: Or Speak to the earth, and it shall teach
>> thee, and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not
>> in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this? In whose hand
>> is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of mankind?"
>> Also in Jeremiah 8:7:
>> "Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle
>> and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but many
>> people know not the judgment of the Lord."
>> This clearly speaks to the fact that the text is not needed to discover
>> the will of the Divine you merely must look and listen with your Spirit
>> and your Heart the spiritual wisdom there is to be found if you are
>> willing to listen.
> You sound like another Jim Jones or Koresh looking for converts. We
> born-again Christians would rather hold fast to the inerrant Word of God
> as found in our NT Bibles.

And yet when someone shows you the words in the Bible you refuse to listen
to the plain written word though you claim it is without error.
 
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:fvb3u2t1t5bvee1q385taqu1jddpgct16b@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:22:14 -0500, "Chris Morris"
> <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>news:45e0cae1$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>> "Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> snip
>>>>
>>>> You have absolutely no clue what my beliefs are, apart from the few
>>>> that have been appropriate to the discussion.
>
> Irrelevant.
>
>
>>>> I really don't recall ever discussing them with you.
>
> You invited us to join in, by xposting to an atheist NG.
>
>>>>If you don't like people discussing their beliefs, you don't have
>>>>to read these kinds of threads.
>
> If you don't like atheists deriding your superstition, them don't post
> it to atheist NGs.
>
>>>>
>>> Christopher has been agitating for the abolition of the free speech
>>> provision in the constitution and the imposition of strict censorship
>>> laws
>>> for years.
>
> No he hasn't Frank, and you know it; So why do you lie about it?
>
> The constitution gives you freedom of speech, and Christopher, and
> every other American atheist will fight to defend that.
>
> What they will fight against, is YOUR idea, that freedom of speech,
> gives you the right to force your religious views on other peoples
> children.
>
> While you do not want your children force fed, Islam, or Hinduism, or
> Satanism, you complain like crazy when Hindus, or Muslims, or
> Satanists, are protected by the same rules.
>
>
>>>But praise the Lord, apart from outlawing religion in schools,
>>> he is making little headway.
>>
>>While I agree with you Christopher is a bit of menace to society,
>
> ...But then, I imagine that applies to anyone who forcibly disagrees
> with you.

He has a habit of attacking me without reading what he is attacking first.


>
>>there is
>>not now nor has there ever been a ban on religion in school.
>
> You waste your time.
>
> Frank cares nothing for the truth.
>
>>In fact to
>>speak of History would be impossible without talking of Religion. Also the
>>individuals are free to pray in a non-disruptive manner if they wish and
>>even read their Bible or any Holy book they wish during non-instruction
>>time. There has been great confusion about this at the School level and
>>most
>>of it is unfortunately fueled by those making the false claim that the
>>Supreme Court outlawed the Bible, Prayer and God from School.
>
> Oh dear.
>
> This isn't going to go down well, with Frank,or several other xtian
> fanatics in these groups.

I never really cared what others thought when I speak my mind especially
when it is backed in the facts, history and the law.
 
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:iol3u2deq6qgj8gatgicss8jnu161mhdf1@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:35:19 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:22:14 -0500, "Chris Morris"
>><Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>>news:45e0cae1$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>>> "Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>snip
>>>>>
>>>>> You have absolutely no clue what my beliefs are, apart from the few
>>>>> that have been appropriate to the discussion.
>>
>>Irrelevant.
>>
>>>>> I really don't recall ever discussing them with you.
>>
>>You invited us to join in, by xposting to an atheist NG.
>>
>>>>>If you don't like people discussing their beliefs, you don't have
>>>>>to read these kinds of threads.
>
> Translation: like most theists he sociopathically sees nothing wrong
> with telling them to people who otherwise wouldn't know how deluded he
> is.
>
>>If you don't like atheists deriding your superstition, them don't post
>>it to atheist NGs.
>
> Yep.
>
>>>> Christopher has been agitating for the abolition of the free speech
>>>> provision in the constitution and the imposition of strict censorship
>>>> laws
>>>> for years.
>
> Why doesn't the barefaced liar cite one single place where I do that,
> with context?
>
>>No he hasn't Frank, and you know it; So why do you lie about it?
>>
>>The constitution gives you freedom of speech, and Christopher, and
>>every other American atheist will fight to defend that.
>
> It also gives us the freedom of speech to tell them where to shove it
> when they push it where it is neither wanted nor needed. And to treat
> bullying psychopaths like Frank as what they are.
>
> It's not even a constitutional issue but one of common sense and
> courtesy towards those outside his religion.
>
> And the negative reaction to his nastiness, stupidity and bullying.
>
>>What they will fight against, is YOUR idea, that freedom of speech,
>>gives you the right to force your religious views on other peoples
>>children.
>
> Yep.
>
>>While you do not want your children force fed, Islam, or Hinduism, or
>>Satanism, you complain like crazy when Hindus, or Muslims, or
>>Satanists, are protected by the same rules.
>>
>>>>But praise the Lord, apart from outlawing religion in schools,
>>>> he is making little headway.
>>>
>>>While I agree with you Christopher is a bit of menace to society,
>>
>>...But then, I imagine that applies to anyone who forcibly disagrees
>>with you.
>
> Remember, this is the sociopath who rudely and stupidly talks as
> though his "the Divine" were real, universally granted etc to those
> who don't already believe as he does.
>
> Who like most theists doesn't like this being pointed out.
>
> Who resorts to stupidity, slander and nastiness when told to put up or
> shut up.

As I have pointed out to you again and again I do not give a flying rats ass
if you believe what I do it does not effect me at I accept that not everyone
has the same point of view. It is you that seems to believe if others are
not Atheists then they are morons


>>>there is
>>>not now nor has there ever been a ban on religion in school.
>>
>>You waste your time.
>>
>>Frank cares nothing for the truth.
>>
>>>In fact to
>>>speak of History would be impossible without talking of Religion. Also
>>>the
>>>individuals are free to pray in a non-disruptive manner if they wish and
>>>even read their Bible or any Holy book they wish during non-instruction
>>>time. There has been great confusion about this at the School level and
>>>most
>>>of it is unfortunately fueled by those making the false claim that the
>>>Supreme Court outlawed the Bible, Prayer and God from School.
>>
>>Oh dear.
>>
>>This isn't going to go down well, with Frank,or several other xtian
>>fanatics in these groups.
>>
>>
 
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 04:02:03 -0500, "Chris Morris"
<Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote:

snip
>>
>
>No book is needed to know the teachings of the Divine. Pagans have no sacred
>or Divinely inspired writings

Define pagan.
 
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:55:49 -0500, "Chris Morris"
<Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote:

>
>"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
>news:fvb3u2t1t5bvee1q385taqu1jddpgct16b@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:22:14 -0500, "Chris Morris"
>> <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
>>>news:45e0cae1$0$16340$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>>> "Padraic Brown" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>> You have absolutely no clue what my beliefs are, apart from the few
>>>>> that have been appropriate to the discussion.
>>
>> Irrelevant.
>>
>>
>>>>> I really don't recall ever discussing them with you.
>>
>> You invited us to join in, by xposting to an atheist NG.
>>
>>>>>If you don't like people discussing their beliefs, you don't have
>>>>>to read these kinds of threads.
>>
>> If you don't like atheists deriding your superstition, them don't post
>> it to atheist NGs.
>>
>>>>>
>>>> Christopher has been agitating for the abolition of the free speech
>>>> provision in the constitution and the imposition of strict censorship
>>>> laws
>>>> for years.
>>
>> No he hasn't Frank, and you know it; So why do you lie about it?
>>
>> The constitution gives you freedom of speech, and Christopher, and
>> every other American atheist will fight to defend that.
>>
>> What they will fight against, is YOUR idea, that freedom of speech,
>> gives you the right to force your religious views on other peoples
>> children.
>>
>> While you do not want your children force fed, Islam, or Hinduism, or
>> Satanism, you complain like crazy when Hindus, or Muslims, or
>> Satanists, are protected by the same rules.
>>
>>>>But praise the Lord, apart from outlawing religion in schools,
>>>> he is making little headway.
>>>
>>>While I agree with you Christopher is a bit of menace to society,
>>
>> ...But then, I imagine that applies to anyone who forcibly disagrees
>> with you.
>
>He has a habit of attacking me without reading what he is attacking first.

And you carry on with your habit of lying about those who tell you to
put up or shut up when you rudely and stupidly talk as though your
beliefs were real, outside your religion.
 
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:0hq3u25bf24a018uev0b3pc0o20e8lagbb@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 04:02:03 -0500, "Chris Morris"
> <Draccus@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> snip
>>>
>>
>>No book is needed to know the teachings of the Divine. Pagans have no
>>sacred
>>or Divinely inspired writings
>
> Define pagan.
>
I have a faith that is Pre-Christian in my case my family never converted to
Christianity as most of the people of Europe did in the past. Being Pagan is
a belief in the Divine forces that exist in all of Nature we follow the
changing of the seasons with rituals that mark those changes and honor those
who have gone before us. We believe in reincarnation with many lives lived
in order to learn the Spiritual lessons that will allow us to reunite with
the with the Divine. The Divine is the force that binds the universe
together and is neither male nor female. We give honor to the Divine through
the God and Goddess who are the intermediary aspects of the Divine that we
can relate to on a more personal basis and more directly and through whom as
they are closer to the Divine than we are selves are , but still accessible
easier for us to comprehend. Being Pagan means knowing that the walls
between the physical and the spiritual world are illusion as is time itself
creations that man has put in place for and by his own mind. We accept that
not all paths are the same for all people we must all find that which is
right and works for ourselves. Also we do not believe it is possible to come
to our path unless you chose to, no one can be forced and no one can be
recruited. Each must find the path that is best suited for their own needs.
 

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