M
Mavisbeacon
Guest
"P-38" <light@ning.pln> wrote in message
news:jr8kl3t07fp5ea8dknuvod00m4uihb64tv@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 02:05:12 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"
> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>
>>Where are they?
>
> ****ing MORON!
>
> http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=12525
>
> It's become a Liberal "article of faith" that Iraq had no weapons of
> mass destruction
BZZZT! WRONG!
Why do you continually recommit this logical fallacy! Look up "proving a
negative" will you?
I didn't claim "NO WMD"
YOU are the one claiming WMD in Iraq when the invasion happened and that
Saddam was linked to al Quaeda and suchlike Islamists who want Islamic
states and are planning terrorism on an international scale! You have
produced NO EVIDENCE to support these hypotheses!
Please don't try to shift the burden onto me as if I should prove the
negative
>and no intention to build them, despite all the
> evidence that Saddam Hussein possessed and used them many times.
He certainly posessed them! On soc.culture.iraq I published a list of what
the the US SOLD HIM in the eighties!
The Us then stood by and Rumsfeld even shook Saddam's hand when he used them
against IRAN!
But most of them were decomissioned by 1991! By "most" read 90 per cent. But
1995 almost all were gone and the inspectors stayed till 1998! They then
came back in 2003 and guess what still NO EVIDENCE OF WMD in Iraq! These
were not pictures form space but actual people on the ground in Iraq and the
US couldn't tell then ANY places to go where they found WMD! Days before the
US invaded!
What evidence he used them many times? I am aware of two or three times!
Twicew against Iran and once against the Kurds. The Kurdish one is even
disputed in the suggestion that it was Iranian WMD used to provoke them
against Saddam but I don't believe that. It is plausable however. But if by
"many times" you nean "THREE times" well then I agree.
>When
> the CIA didn't immediately uncover huge stockpiles of illegal weapons,
There were hundreds of inspectors not just a few CIA and BEFORE the invasion
the US Authorities assured us they know wher the WMD were!
> critics of Iraqi liberation were able to push the false meme that
The theory of memetics is soundly rebutted elsewhere.
> Saddam never had WMDs in the first place, or secretly disposed of them
> long ago, or that he was "contained" by UN sanctions.
Saddm HAD WMD in the eighties! We KNOW that because the US (and others) SOLD
that capability to him and he USED them!
Saddam did NOT secretly dispose of them. ALL the launchers rocket moulds
etc. were disposed of BY THE UN! There remains materials (not actual WMD but
the machinery and materials which could make WMD) 95 percent of which were
disposed of BY THE UN! Of the other 5 per cent most would render itself
unusuable after the intervening time. Of the rest,yes, the Iraquis in
charge of the WMD programme claimed to have disposed of it. they provided
the locations it was stored (again NOT WMD but what would be unusable but
used to be materials capable of making PART of a WMD) and destroyed. UN
inspectors found NO stores of WMD materials by 1998!
>With the US
> invasion of Iraq telegraphed for well over a year in advance, it
> boggles the mind that Liberals still refuse to even consider the
> possibility that Saddam moved or hid whatever WMD materials he had to
> prevent them from being discovered.
This is a rubbish claim! The reason is that they don't have to prove how
there are "NO WMD"! The original claim was that there were loads and loads
of WMD and that they were pointing at the West and the US knew where they
were and would show them to the rest of the world! They didn't! CHANGING the
claim to an explaination of why they think they were WRONG does not mean
they are suddenly right! The claim is STILL WRONG!
>
> The idea that every inch of Iraq has been examined and pronounced
> clean is ludicrous.
correct. One can not porove a negative! It is a fallacy! One can not prove
NO WMD in Iraq! But it is on the claimant who claim thar ARE WMD to provide
evidence! I will remind you one can not prove the involvment of Space
aliens, unicorns, pixies, the tooth fairy or Sauron either! But if YOU CLAIM
Unicorns are involved it is not for me to go all over Iraq looking for
buiried unicorns is it?
>Reports are still coming in of storage sites that
> were completely ignored by the Iraq Survey Group,
Which reports?
WHICH storage sites?
Care to cite these reports?
> which concentrated
> heavily on previously known WMD storage sites. Simple common sense
> would tell anyone that a place marked on every inspector's map "WMD
> Storage Facility" might not be the best place to hide your WMDs.
Simple common sence might tell anyone that if you claim there is a report
you should be able to produce it!
> Instead, something like buried and locked concrete bunkers not marked
> on any map might be a more likely location. Lo and behold, several
> such sites were reported to the ISG... and totally ignored.
When and where were these reposted. LOL you mean to say you have a map of
"invisible sites". Does the Emperor store his invisible clothes there?
>
> David Gaubatz, a former member of the Air Force's Office of Special
> Investigations, was assigned to intelligence research. He was shown
> four sealed underground concrete bunkers in southern Iraq with the
> tunnels leading to them deliberately flooded. His sources told him
> that the facilities had contained stockpiles of biological and
> chemical weapons.
When was he told this? By whom? Where is the site? Has it been examined for
trace materials? Where is that technical report? And do you claim the UN
were aware of this site and never inspected it?
>He filed reports with photographs, grid coordinates,
> and testimony from multiple sources.
Great! Where are these reports? I would love to see them?
>But the ISG never unsealed the
> bunkers.
Oh! so they were (and apparently still ARE) SEALED! Great we can still go
there and check for WMD! Where are these bunkers?
>"We agents begged and begged for weeks and months to get ISG
> to respond to the sites with the proper equipment," Gaubatz told the
> NY Sun. Yet the ISG felt comfortable filing a final report, in effect
> closing the case.
Where are these bunkers? and pics, docs, anything on them? Caome on? You
claim to have whole reports.
>
> Several sources have previously indicated that Saddam sent some WMDs
> and equipment related to chemical and biological weapons production to
> Syria and Lebanon in the months preceding the US invasion.
Maybe he did maybe he didnt! But the CLAIM WAS WMD in Iraq! thats apparently
WHY the US invaded! And they claimed in the area of Tikrit and Bagdadh which
is on the opposide side of the country to Syria!
>In May
> 2003, DEBKAfile reported that "the relocation of Iraq's WMD systems
> took place between January 10 and March 10 and was completed just 10
> days before the US-led offensive was launched against Iraq."
LOL! You invaded to find WMD and a week before while you were blanket
bombing the eitire country. secret convoys crossed a thousand kilometres of
desert skirting the Kurdish controlled border and right through the "no fly
zone" constantly patrolled by US aricraft and not a single convoy was hit!
Saddam should have used thes troops against the US and they would never have
beaten such an invisible foe capable of moving faster than the US and
completly undetected and unhurt!
In fact the plausability of this happening is ever more extraordinary and
bizzare than Saddam havinf the WMD in the first place.
This is classic "conspiracy theory" reasoning. If the WMD conspiracy theory
does not fit then that is because there is an even bigger conspiracy
covering it up! LOL!
> CIA
> satellite imagery showed "convoys of Iraqi trucks that poured into
> Syria in February and March 2003."
Sure why do they need satellites. they were flying planes over the whole
area all the time!
Look here are LOADS of maps of WMD facilities.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/facility/
You can see that some are well over a thousand kilometeres from the Syrian
border! And Bagdadh and Tikrit are across rivers and deserts from Syria!
It just does not stand up to scrutiny! But the real issue is that the US
CLAIMED WMD and they KNEW where they were!
>
> David Kay, original head of the Iraq Survey group, reported that "we
> know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a
> lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some
> components of Saddam's WMD program." Among the things left behind, Kay
> reported finding a "clandestine network of laboratories and
> safehouses," and "a prison laboratory complex... that Iraqi officials
> working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to
> declare to the UN." The ISG's investigation revealed "new research on
> BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever
> (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin." Charles Duelfer,
> who replaced David Kay as head of the ISG, wrote in his final report
> that, "ISG received information about movement of material out of
> Iraq, including the possibility that WMD was involved... these reports
> were sufficiently credible to merit further investigation." Senator
> Pat Roberts, (R-KS), chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence,
> even acknowledged that "there is some concern that shipments of WMD
> went to Syria."
Yes. But SUSPICION of SOME MATERIALS which might be used to make WMD going
to Syria is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT to the claims of loads of actual WMD in Iraq
ready for launchand that the US knew where these were in the Tikjrit and
Bagdadh region surroundin the city.
So you accept whay Kay says?
The SAME David Kay who stated:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/23/politics/main1747450.shtml
But intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of
the subject's sensitive nature, said the weapons were produced before the
1991 Gulf War and there is no evidence to date of chemical munitions
manufactured since then. They said an assessment of the weapons concluded
they are so degraded that they couldn't now be used as designed.
....
He said experts on Iraq's chemical weapons are in "almost 100 percent
agreement" that sarin nerve agent produced from the 1980s would no longer be
dangerous.
"It is less toxic than most things that Americans have under their kitchen
sink at this point," Kay said.
And any of Iraq's 1980s-era mustard would produce burns, but it is unlikely
to be lethal, Kay said.
Asked about the potential danger to U.S. troops, Defense Secretary Donald H.
Rumsfeld said: "They are weapons of mass destruction. They are harmful to
human beings. And they have been found."
....
Intelligence officials said the munitions were found in ones, twos and maybe
slightly larger collections over the past couple of years. One official
conceded that these pre-Gulf War weapons did not pose a threat to the U.S.
military before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. They were not maintained or part
of any organized program run by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.
[end excerpts]
You accept what Kay says do you?
>
> John Shaw, former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for International
> Technology Security, has charged that Saddam's WMD stockpiles were
> moved by Russian special forces into Syria and Lebanon. According to
> Shaw, former Russian intelligence head Yevgeny Primakov supervised the
> removal operations. GRU military intelligence and Russian "spetsnaz"
> (special forces) troops moved Saddam's WMDs to Syria by truck
> beginning in December 2002.
Strange that they didnt accept this story in December 2002 then and
continued in their "lots of WMD " till May 2003 isnt it?
[snip - deal with rest later]
news:jr8kl3t07fp5ea8dknuvod00m4uihb64tv@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 02:05:12 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"
> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>
>>Where are they?
>
> ****ing MORON!
>
> http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=12525
>
> It's become a Liberal "article of faith" that Iraq had no weapons of
> mass destruction
BZZZT! WRONG!
Why do you continually recommit this logical fallacy! Look up "proving a
negative" will you?
I didn't claim "NO WMD"
YOU are the one claiming WMD in Iraq when the invasion happened and that
Saddam was linked to al Quaeda and suchlike Islamists who want Islamic
states and are planning terrorism on an international scale! You have
produced NO EVIDENCE to support these hypotheses!
Please don't try to shift the burden onto me as if I should prove the
negative
>and no intention to build them, despite all the
> evidence that Saddam Hussein possessed and used them many times.
He certainly posessed them! On soc.culture.iraq I published a list of what
the the US SOLD HIM in the eighties!
The Us then stood by and Rumsfeld even shook Saddam's hand when he used them
against IRAN!
But most of them were decomissioned by 1991! By "most" read 90 per cent. But
1995 almost all were gone and the inspectors stayed till 1998! They then
came back in 2003 and guess what still NO EVIDENCE OF WMD in Iraq! These
were not pictures form space but actual people on the ground in Iraq and the
US couldn't tell then ANY places to go where they found WMD! Days before the
US invaded!
What evidence he used them many times? I am aware of two or three times!
Twicew against Iran and once against the Kurds. The Kurdish one is even
disputed in the suggestion that it was Iranian WMD used to provoke them
against Saddam but I don't believe that. It is plausable however. But if by
"many times" you nean "THREE times" well then I agree.
>When
> the CIA didn't immediately uncover huge stockpiles of illegal weapons,
There were hundreds of inspectors not just a few CIA and BEFORE the invasion
the US Authorities assured us they know wher the WMD were!
> critics of Iraqi liberation were able to push the false meme that
The theory of memetics is soundly rebutted elsewhere.
> Saddam never had WMDs in the first place, or secretly disposed of them
> long ago, or that he was "contained" by UN sanctions.
Saddm HAD WMD in the eighties! We KNOW that because the US (and others) SOLD
that capability to him and he USED them!
Saddam did NOT secretly dispose of them. ALL the launchers rocket moulds
etc. were disposed of BY THE UN! There remains materials (not actual WMD but
the machinery and materials which could make WMD) 95 percent of which were
disposed of BY THE UN! Of the other 5 per cent most would render itself
unusuable after the intervening time. Of the rest,yes, the Iraquis in
charge of the WMD programme claimed to have disposed of it. they provided
the locations it was stored (again NOT WMD but what would be unusable but
used to be materials capable of making PART of a WMD) and destroyed. UN
inspectors found NO stores of WMD materials by 1998!
>With the US
> invasion of Iraq telegraphed for well over a year in advance, it
> boggles the mind that Liberals still refuse to even consider the
> possibility that Saddam moved or hid whatever WMD materials he had to
> prevent them from being discovered.
This is a rubbish claim! The reason is that they don't have to prove how
there are "NO WMD"! The original claim was that there were loads and loads
of WMD and that they were pointing at the West and the US knew where they
were and would show them to the rest of the world! They didn't! CHANGING the
claim to an explaination of why they think they were WRONG does not mean
they are suddenly right! The claim is STILL WRONG!
>
> The idea that every inch of Iraq has been examined and pronounced
> clean is ludicrous.
correct. One can not porove a negative! It is a fallacy! One can not prove
NO WMD in Iraq! But it is on the claimant who claim thar ARE WMD to provide
evidence! I will remind you one can not prove the involvment of Space
aliens, unicorns, pixies, the tooth fairy or Sauron either! But if YOU CLAIM
Unicorns are involved it is not for me to go all over Iraq looking for
buiried unicorns is it?
>Reports are still coming in of storage sites that
> were completely ignored by the Iraq Survey Group,
Which reports?
WHICH storage sites?
Care to cite these reports?
> which concentrated
> heavily on previously known WMD storage sites. Simple common sense
> would tell anyone that a place marked on every inspector's map "WMD
> Storage Facility" might not be the best place to hide your WMDs.
Simple common sence might tell anyone that if you claim there is a report
you should be able to produce it!
> Instead, something like buried and locked concrete bunkers not marked
> on any map might be a more likely location. Lo and behold, several
> such sites were reported to the ISG... and totally ignored.
When and where were these reposted. LOL you mean to say you have a map of
"invisible sites". Does the Emperor store his invisible clothes there?
>
> David Gaubatz, a former member of the Air Force's Office of Special
> Investigations, was assigned to intelligence research. He was shown
> four sealed underground concrete bunkers in southern Iraq with the
> tunnels leading to them deliberately flooded. His sources told him
> that the facilities had contained stockpiles of biological and
> chemical weapons.
When was he told this? By whom? Where is the site? Has it been examined for
trace materials? Where is that technical report? And do you claim the UN
were aware of this site and never inspected it?
>He filed reports with photographs, grid coordinates,
> and testimony from multiple sources.
Great! Where are these reports? I would love to see them?
>But the ISG never unsealed the
> bunkers.
Oh! so they were (and apparently still ARE) SEALED! Great we can still go
there and check for WMD! Where are these bunkers?
>"We agents begged and begged for weeks and months to get ISG
> to respond to the sites with the proper equipment," Gaubatz told the
> NY Sun. Yet the ISG felt comfortable filing a final report, in effect
> closing the case.
Where are these bunkers? and pics, docs, anything on them? Caome on? You
claim to have whole reports.
>
> Several sources have previously indicated that Saddam sent some WMDs
> and equipment related to chemical and biological weapons production to
> Syria and Lebanon in the months preceding the US invasion.
Maybe he did maybe he didnt! But the CLAIM WAS WMD in Iraq! thats apparently
WHY the US invaded! And they claimed in the area of Tikrit and Bagdadh which
is on the opposide side of the country to Syria!
>In May
> 2003, DEBKAfile reported that "the relocation of Iraq's WMD systems
> took place between January 10 and March 10 and was completed just 10
> days before the US-led offensive was launched against Iraq."
LOL! You invaded to find WMD and a week before while you were blanket
bombing the eitire country. secret convoys crossed a thousand kilometres of
desert skirting the Kurdish controlled border and right through the "no fly
zone" constantly patrolled by US aricraft and not a single convoy was hit!
Saddam should have used thes troops against the US and they would never have
beaten such an invisible foe capable of moving faster than the US and
completly undetected and unhurt!
In fact the plausability of this happening is ever more extraordinary and
bizzare than Saddam havinf the WMD in the first place.
This is classic "conspiracy theory" reasoning. If the WMD conspiracy theory
does not fit then that is because there is an even bigger conspiracy
covering it up! LOL!
> CIA
> satellite imagery showed "convoys of Iraqi trucks that poured into
> Syria in February and March 2003."
Sure why do they need satellites. they were flying planes over the whole
area all the time!
Look here are LOADS of maps of WMD facilities.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/facility/
You can see that some are well over a thousand kilometeres from the Syrian
border! And Bagdadh and Tikrit are across rivers and deserts from Syria!
It just does not stand up to scrutiny! But the real issue is that the US
CLAIMED WMD and they KNEW where they were!
>
> David Kay, original head of the Iraq Survey group, reported that "we
> know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a
> lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some
> components of Saddam's WMD program." Among the things left behind, Kay
> reported finding a "clandestine network of laboratories and
> safehouses," and "a prison laboratory complex... that Iraqi officials
> working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to
> declare to the UN." The ISG's investigation revealed "new research on
> BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever
> (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin." Charles Duelfer,
> who replaced David Kay as head of the ISG, wrote in his final report
> that, "ISG received information about movement of material out of
> Iraq, including the possibility that WMD was involved... these reports
> were sufficiently credible to merit further investigation." Senator
> Pat Roberts, (R-KS), chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence,
> even acknowledged that "there is some concern that shipments of WMD
> went to Syria."
Yes. But SUSPICION of SOME MATERIALS which might be used to make WMD going
to Syria is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT to the claims of loads of actual WMD in Iraq
ready for launchand that the US knew where these were in the Tikjrit and
Bagdadh region surroundin the city.
So you accept whay Kay says?
The SAME David Kay who stated:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/23/politics/main1747450.shtml
But intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of
the subject's sensitive nature, said the weapons were produced before the
1991 Gulf War and there is no evidence to date of chemical munitions
manufactured since then. They said an assessment of the weapons concluded
they are so degraded that they couldn't now be used as designed.
....
He said experts on Iraq's chemical weapons are in "almost 100 percent
agreement" that sarin nerve agent produced from the 1980s would no longer be
dangerous.
"It is less toxic than most things that Americans have under their kitchen
sink at this point," Kay said.
And any of Iraq's 1980s-era mustard would produce burns, but it is unlikely
to be lethal, Kay said.
Asked about the potential danger to U.S. troops, Defense Secretary Donald H.
Rumsfeld said: "They are weapons of mass destruction. They are harmful to
human beings. And they have been found."
....
Intelligence officials said the munitions were found in ones, twos and maybe
slightly larger collections over the past couple of years. One official
conceded that these pre-Gulf War weapons did not pose a threat to the U.S.
military before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. They were not maintained or part
of any organized program run by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.
[end excerpts]
You accept what Kay says do you?
>
> John Shaw, former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for International
> Technology Security, has charged that Saddam's WMD stockpiles were
> moved by Russian special forces into Syria and Lebanon. According to
> Shaw, former Russian intelligence head Yevgeny Primakov supervised the
> removal operations. GRU military intelligence and Russian "spetsnaz"
> (special forces) troops moved Saddam's WMDs to Syria by truck
> beginning in December 2002.
Strange that they didnt accept this story in December 2002 then and
continued in their "lots of WMD " till May 2003 isnt it?
[snip - deal with rest later]
8val3tvi7e72hc4st3lfen6lbiuo9hgss@4ax.com...