Holocaust Denial, American Style 29 Nov 2007

[Mavisbeacon]

"Merlin" <johndoe99@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:f7fa8bbb-5f0a-4bda-bf79-d5887143ef51@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 26, 12:34 pm, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:
> "Merlin" <johndo...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>
> news:627009ac-fc9b-4aba-aca8-8e4527604340@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 8, 2:51 pm, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:
>
> > In fact it might well be that there were NO WMD in Iraq for a at least 5
> > years before the US occupation!
>
> "MIGHT WELL BE"
>
> > Yes it isnt for me to prove a negitive -NO WMD. It is for those claiming
> > them to prove them!
>
> BE-A-CON, YOU'RE A SLIMY PIECE OF ****. IN MANY OF YOUR POSTS, YOU
> CLAIMED THAT THEIR WERE NONE!
>
> > I do not believe there were any. But

You've said so many times that you don't give your opinion. Now it
seems you do.

> No I haven't! Where did i state that? I may have stated I RARELY make
> claims. Claims are claims of FACT not opinion! I also may have stated I
> sometimes >give an opinion but when I do I almost always indicate it is an
> opinion. "I BELIEVE" is an opinion!


You just can't get your story straight, can you?


> If you can point out where I stated I dont post opinion ever then I am
> happy to accepot that but as usual you won't be able to will you?


Or was that "seldom" give your opinion? Either way, it's your opinion,
not fact in any way.


> It was most likely "seldom" and you probably are aware that you unfounded
> accusation is just that UNFOUNDED like most of the other claims you post!


As such, it's meaningless.


> AS opposed to YOU who posts unsupported opinion which is somehow full of
> meaning? LOL to you maybe. Not to anyone reasonable reading your bigoted
> point of view.

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Merlin" <johndoe99@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:65276240-438d-4743-b343-2c5064a8afb7@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 5, 2:42 pm, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

> If you want to train terrorists you train them to hijack planes and NOT
> how
> to get into grounded planes! for that you only need the INSIDE of a plane.
> You use planes on the ground to train COUNTER TERRORISTS!

[snip]
"Sorry everyone, we have to fly this 747 around in circles so we can
train our terrorists how to take one over."


> You do not need an airplane body to train terrorists to take it over in
> the air! You need a mockup of the interior not the >EXTERIOR! Hijackings
> happen almost entirely in the AIR. the hijackers do NOT break into the
> plane from outside! As such they >do NOT need a fusilage. they need an
> interior! It would be highly unlikely they would put such an interior out
> in public view!



Just the ****ing image cracks me up, be-a-con, you idiot.


> really how so? Why would terrorists need a fuselage outdoors? why would
> they train on one? Of all the airline hijacks that ever occurred can you
> name even one that involved the hijackers entering the plane by attacking
> it when grounded from outside?

> In fact one of the first rules of counter terrorism in this situation is
> to get a plane grounded. The threat of terrorists is by FAR increased by
> having control of an AIRBORNE plane!

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Fritz Katzenjammer" <der@captain.vot> wrote in message
news:h22dn3lehuvqc7ej1vv735mcj295l22fbn@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:10:59 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>
[snip]

>>
>>I have dealt with this
>
> YOU ARE A LYING SCUMBAG _ DIE NOW!

Here is the reference
I have dealt with this so called evidence before in soc.culture.iraq too!
From: "Mavisbeacon" Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:17:49 GMT
Local: Wed, Dec 5 2007 9:17 am
Subject: Re: Holocaust Denial, American Style 29 Nov 2007
Message-ID: <11u5j.12$L25.4@amsnews12>


Unlike you I don't just fire off names and run away. I actually provide the
EVIDENCE to back up my claim!

I would have said "do try to keep up" Fritz.
But sadly it is only "bye bye Fritz. Don't forget to close the door on your
way out will you?" because I know that in spite of your death treats you
wont be posting here in a few days.

 

[Lobby Dosser]

Merlin <johndoe99@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> On Dec 27, 2:41

 

[Hansie Katzenjammer]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:27:25 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>
>"Fritz Katzenjammer" <der@captain.vot> wrote in message
>news:f32dn3h0utem373vtt1j033jpfi557g2u2@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:15:52 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>>
>>>
>[snip]
>>
>> Is your life.
>>
>> DIE NOW!
>
>Frita will be gon in a few days and he STILL wont have posted evidence

It was posted scumbag.

Stop being a LIAR!

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={1070B31C-E4BE-409C-ABAF-70DB2030DAF2}

Iraqi military officers destroyed or hid chemical, biological and
nuclear weapons goods in the weeks before the war, the nation's top
satellite spy director said yesterday.

Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. James Clapper, head of the National Imagery
and Mapping Agency, said vehicle traffic photographed by U.S. spy
satellites indicated that material and documents related to the arms
programs were shipped to Syria.

Other goods probably were sent throughout Iraq in small quantities and
documents probably were stashed in the homes of weapons scientists,
Gen. Clapper told defense reporters at a breakfast.

Gen. Clapper said he is not surprised that U.S. and allied forces have
not found weapons of mass destruction hidden in Iraq because "it's a
big place."

"Those below the senior leadership saw what was coming, and I think
they went to extraordinary lengths to dispose of the evidence," he
said.

Congress is investigating whether U.S. intelligence agencies
overstated information indicating that Iraq had hidden its chemical,
biological and nuclear weapons. The Bush administration has defended
the intelligence agencies on prewar reports that the weapons were
there.

Iraqi government officials "below the Saddam Hussein and the sons
level saw what was coming and decided the best thing to do was to
dispose, destroy and disperse," he said.

Gen. Clapper said he felt strongly that the satellite imagery of
Iraq's weapons facilities before the war was "accurate and balanced."

"Based on what we saw prior to the onset of hostilities, we certainly
felt there were indications of [weapons of mass destruction]
activity," said the retired general and former director of the Defense
Intelligence Agency.

Gen. Clapper said the judgment was based on analysis of spy satellite
photographs and was not proof of "what was going on inside of
buildings."

He also said the Iraqi government carried out operations after the
fall of Baghdad in April to cover up the hidden weapons programs. The
chaos following might have included both looting and "organized
dispersal made to look like looting," he said.

"So by the time that we got to a lot of these facilities, that we had
previously identified as suspect facilities, there wasn't that much
there to look at," he said.

Valuable documents on Iraq's weapons were destroyed or lost in the
chaos, which included burning of major government ministries.

Saddam began dispersing his weapons and sending elements of his
chemical, biological and nuclear programs out of the country in the
weeks before the war, he said.

The dispersal included moving both weapons and equipment as well as
documents. The activity began before the United Nations began arms
inspections last fall.

"What we saw with the avoidance of inspections, there was clearly an
effort to disperse, bury, conceal certain equipment prior to
inspections," Gen. Clapper said.

As for shipping weapons out of Iraq, he said, there is "no question"
that people and material were taken to Syria. He said he did not know
whether material also was moved to Iran.

Convoys of vehicles, mostly commercial trucks, were spotted going into
Syria from Iraq shortly before the start of the war March 19 and
during the conflict, he said.

 

[Merlin]

On Dec 29, 4:49

 

[Merlin]

On Dec 26, 12:32

 

[Hansie Katzenjammer]

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 01:07:08 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>
>"Fritz Katzenjammer" <der@captain.vot> wrote in message
>news:h22dn3lehuvqc7ej1vv735mcj295l22fbn@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:10:59 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>>
>[snip]
>
>>>
>>>I have dealt with this
>>
>> YOU ARE A LYING SCUMBAG _ DIE NOW!
>
>Here is the reference

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={1070B31C-E4BE-409C-ABAF-70DB2030DAF2}
Iraqi military officers destroyed or hid chemical, biological and
nuclear weapons goods in the weeks before the war, the nation's top
satellite spy director said yesterday.

Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. James Clapper, head of the National Imagery
and Mapping Agency, said vehicle traffic photographed by U.S. spy
satellites indicated that material and documents related to the arms
programs were shipped to Syria.

Other goods probably were sent throughout Iraq in small quantities and
documents probably were stashed in the homes of weapons scientists,
Gen. Clapper told defense reporters at a breakfast.

Gen. Clapper said he is not surprised that U.S. and allied forces have
not found weapons of mass destruction hidden in Iraq because "it's a
big place."

"Those below the senior leadership saw what was coming, and I think
they went to extraordinary lengths to dispose of the evidence," he
said.

Congress is investigating whether U.S. intelligence agencies
overstated information indicating that Iraq had hidden its chemical,
biological and nuclear weapons. The Bush administration has defended
the intelligence agencies on prewar reports that the weapons were
there.

Iraqi government officials "below the Saddam Hussein and the sons
level saw what was coming and decided the best thing to do was to
dispose, destroy and disperse," he said.

Gen. Clapper said he felt strongly that the satellite imagery of
Iraq's weapons facilities before the war was "accurate and balanced."

"Based on what we saw prior to the onset of hostilities, we certainly
felt there were indications of [weapons of mass destruction]
activity," said the retired general and former director of the Defense
Intelligence Agency.

Gen. Clapper said the judgment was based on analysis of spy satellite
photographs and was not proof of "what was going on inside of
buildings."

He also said the Iraqi government carried out operations after the
fall of Baghdad in April to cover up the hidden weapons programs. The
chaos following might have included both looting and "organized
dispersal made to look like looting," he said.

"So by the time that we got to a lot of these facilities, that we had
previously identified as suspect facilities, there wasn't that much
there to look at," he said.

Valuable documents on Iraq's weapons were destroyed or lost in the
chaos, which included burning of major government ministries.

Saddam began dispersing his weapons and sending elements of his
chemical, biological and nuclear programs out of the country in the
weeks before the war, he said.

The dispersal included moving both weapons and equipment as well as
documents. The activity began before the United Nations began arms
inspections last fall.

"What we saw with the avoidance of inspections, there was clearly an
effort to disperse, bury, conceal certain equipment prior to
inspections," Gen. Clapper said.

As for shipping weapons out of Iraq, he said, there is "no question"
that people and material were taken to Syria. He said he did not know
whether material also was moved to Iran.

Convoys of vehicles, mostly commercial trucks, were spotted going into
Syria from Iraq shortly before the start of the war March 19 and
during the conflict, he said.

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Hansie Katzenjammer" <der@inspector.vot> wrote in message
news:nksdn3lee6lhm19ln56sgdvcb5k39v15j5@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:27:25 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>
>>
>>"Fritz Katzenjammer" <der@captain.vot> wrote in message
>>news:f32dn3h0utem373vtt1j033jpfi557g2u2@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:15:52 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
>>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>>>
>>>>
>>[snip]
>>>
>>> Is your life.
>>>
>>> DIE NOW!
>>
>>Frita will be gon in a few days and he STILL wont have posted evidence
>
> It was posted scumbag.
>
> Stop being a LIAR!
>
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={1070B31C-E4BE-409C-ABAF-70DB2030DAF2}


Here is wat i posted about frontpage mag back in spetember and after that we
will go through you so called "evidence shall we"

From: "Mavisbeacon"
Newsgroups:
soc.culture.iraq,soc.culture.iranian,alt.politics,alt.politics.bush
References: <1188234275.553182.161470@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
<5jgq25F3sr131U1@mid.individual.net>
<1i3ie68.1qlh7e9mnaf0gN%nobody@nowheres.com> <lSkBi.629$9V2.404@amstwist00>
<1i3m514.7bbh061gstpvsN%nobody@nowheres.com> <DQuBi.684$9V2.310@amstwist00>
<1i3nvdj.y5juurtrm2zhN%nobody@nowheres.com> <CLSBi.857$9V2.439@amstwist00>
<1i3q5mg.10qxqs61wj8oftN%nobody@nowheres.com> <4yeCi.996$9V2.544@amstwist00>
<1i3rizk.p1tx1yysfy69N%nobody@nowheres.com>
Subject: Re: Why the fabricated WMD claims were fake!
Lines: 154
Message-ID: <nMVCi.1300$9V2.770@amstwist00>
this source is worse than FOX! surprising! but please where does it supply
EVIDENCE of WMD? reference please?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontpagemag
Chip Berlet, writing for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), identified
Horowitz's Center for the Study of Popular Culture as one of 17 "right-wing
foundations and think tanks support[ing] efforts to make bigoted and
discredited ideas respectable." Berlet accused Horowitz of blaming slavery
on "'black Africans ... abetted by dark-skinned Arabs'" and of "attack[ing]
minority 'demands for special treatment' as 'only necessary because some
blacks can't seem to locate the ladder of opportunity within reach of
others,' rejecting the idea that they could be the victims of lingering
racism."[11] Responding with an open letter to Morris Dees, president of the
SPLC, Horowitz stated that his reminder that the slaves transported to
America were bought from African and Arab slavers was a response to demands
that only whites pay blacks reparations, not to hold Africans and Arabs
solely responsible for slavery, and that the statement that he had denied
lingering racism was "a calculated and carefully constructed lie." The
letter said that Berlet's work was "so tendentious, so filled with
transparent misrepresentations and smears that if you continue to post the
report you will create for your Southern Poverty Law Center a well-earned
reputation as a hate group itself."[12] Berlet responded: "The Center for
the Study of Popular Culture has produced a vast amount of text marked by
nasty polemic and exceptional insensitivity around issues of race,
ethnicity, gender, and sexual identity. Writers for the CSPC tend to use
language that exacerbates societal tensions rather than seeking some form of
constructive critical discourse. They are mainstreaming bigotry-and this is
precisely the topic of my article in Intelligence Report."[13] Subsequent
critical pieces on Berlet and the SPLC have been featured on FPM.[14][15]

In 2003 the SPLC criticized Front Page for calling the NAACP "a defamation
and shakedown organization."[16]

Media Matters for America criticized FrontPageMag.com senior editor Jacob
Laksin for "falsely claim[ing] Media Matters 'concede[d]' that half the
professors in Horowitz's book 'use their classrooms for political
agendas'."[17]

On October 10, 2006 Media Matters published an article whose title asserted
"Horowitz, FrontPageMag misrepresented CREW statement on Foley emails to
suggest 'obstruction of justice'."[18] Rep. Mark Foley had sent arguably
inappropriate emails to an underage Congressional page (more explicit
propositions to others came out later) and, after ABC News broke the story
on September 28 based on other information, the Citizens for Responsibility
and Ethics in Washington criticized the FBI, saying that they had both
received and turned the suspicious emails over to the FBI in July. According
to the Washington Post, "Law enforcement officials said then that the
e-mails did not provide enough evidence of a possible crime to warrant a
full investigation", that "unidentified Justice and FBI officials told
reporters that the e-mails provided by CREW were heavily redacted" and that
"the FBI believed that CREW may have received the e-mails as early as
April".[19] According to Media Matters Horowitz's October 9 FPM blog
characterized the CREW claim to have turned the emails over to the FBI on
the same day they received them as "holding [them] since at least July 2006"
and that the blog "failed to make clear that the dispute concerns
allegations made by unnamed officials -- not the agency itself.". The blog
entry referred to by Media Matters is no longer available on the FPM
magazine site, but the article on this subject FPM published on October 10
does not have these failings.


[end excerpt]

so much for the authotity of you source but let us see exactly what you
claim it says:


>
> Iraqi military officers destroyed or hid chemical, biological and
> nuclear weapons goods in the weeks before the war, the nation's top
> satellite spy director said yesterday.

That for starters is hearsay! Where is the actual EVIDENCE of hidden WMD?
You have been four years there and said there were loads and loads of them.
so where are they?

>
> Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. James Clapper, head of the National Imagery
> and Mapping Agency, said vehicle traffic photographed by U.S. spy
> satellites indicated that material and documents related to the arms
> programs were shipped to Syria.

Shipped from tikrit and Bagdadh across a thousand miles of US occupied and
overflied territory? And only a satellite took any pictures? No overflying
planes or troops saw anything?


> Other goods probably were sent throughout Iraq in small quantities and
> documents probably were stashed in the homes of weapons scientists,
> Gen. Clapper told defense reporters at a breakfast.


This si part of the old switcheroony climbdown! it is in fact a claim that
there is NOT any evidence and giving an excuse fot NO evidence! the fact is
that there is NO evidence of WMD as promised in Iraq! If you now claim "the
reason for no evidence of WMD is because they were moved to Syria! then you
have to accept that there are NO WMD in Iraq! Even if the story is a
complete cooked up fantasy it begins by the actual basis of NO WMD IN IRAQ!
You begin with something the opposite of you claim!
>
> Gen. Clapper said he is not surprised that U.S. and allied forces have
> not found weapons of mass destruction hidden in Iraq because "it's a
> big place."

Waffle! The US stated before the invasion that they were aware of
stockpiles of WMD and that they KNEW where!
SO if they are not there now they can begin by admitting they were wrong!

>
> "Those below the senior leadership saw what was coming, and I think
> they went to extraordinary lengths to dispose of the evidence," he
> said.

This is complete bollox! You are claiming something must be true on the
basis of the total absence of evidence! dont you see the fallacy here?

Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.

Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.

Homer: Thank you dear.

Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.

Homer: Oh, how does it work?

Lisa: It doesn't work.

Homer: Uh-huh.

Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.

Homer: Uh-huh.

Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?

Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.



Fritz is selling a rock in a desert of sand. Sand on which his argument is
built

LOL!



>
> Congress is investigating whether U.S. intelligence agencies
> overstated information indicating that Iraq had hidden its chemical,
> biological and nuclear weapons. The Bush administration has defended
> the intelligence agencies on prewar reports that the weapons were
> there.


They investigated it and they admitted they GOT IT WRONG!


http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf
from page 52 and page 105 show NO evidence of WMD and no links to al Qaeda!

That's from the OFFICIAL US reports! go and read it! it ADMITS they got it
WRONG!


>
> Iraqi government officials "below the Saddam Hussein and the sons
> level saw what was coming and decided the best thing to do was to
> dispose, destroy and disperse," he said.


LOL! More of the "tooth fairy must have taken them" routine!
You just have NO EVIDENCE of WMD in Iraq dont you? Otherwise why woudl you
claim the WMD are NOT THERE! You are a hoot!
>
> Gen. Clapper said he felt strongly that the satellite imagery of
> Iraq's weapons facilities before the war was "accurate and balanced."

Where was all the other evidence? I mean they had planes in the Air with
much better equipment. why didnt they have a photo from them? Where are
these images? Are they like the Images which showed that the bio weapons
plant claimed by "Curveball" actually had a wall down the place he claimed
was a truck roadway? And later when the UN inspectors went there what did
they find ? LOL! a wall!

>
> "Based on what we saw prior to the onset of hostilities, we certainly
> felt there were indications of [weapons of mass destruction]

that is NOT the point! It isnt about what you fgelt! It is about YOUR
promise of WMD and that you knew wher they were and woudl show the world! So
now you haven't found any you cook up this "they must be somewhere else"
unsupported rubbish.


> activity," said the retired general and former director of the Defense
> Intelligence Agency.

Argument from Authority! Another fallacy! where are these photos. Dates?
times? locations?

>
> Gen. Clapper said the judgment was based on analysis of spy satellite
> photographs and was not proof of "what was going on inside of
> buildings."


So they can now tell WMD from orbit can they? LOL!

>
> He also said the Iraqi government carried out operations after the
> fall of Baghdad in April to cover up the hidden weapons programs.

By crossing the entire country through Us held territory and not being
detected. LOL! With such covert ability they could wipe out the entire US
force WITHOUT THE NEED for WMD!

>The
> chaos following might have included both looting and "organized
> dispersal made to look like looting," he said.

But the claim is they took these WMD and drove them to Syria since yu have
NO EVIDNECE of them in Iraq! so how did they do this "magic" missile moving?
Maybe they got the pixies unicorns and lepreachauns to help the tooth fairy
movethe fantasy WMD?

LOL!
>
> "So by the time that we got to a lot of these facilities, that we had
> previously identified as suspect facilities, there wasn't that much
> there to look at," he said.

There wasnt ANYTHIG there constituting any evedince of WMD so now you are
claiming NO evidence of WMD = Moved WMD. Far more likely NO EVIDENCE= NO WMD
in the first place!

>
> Valuable documents on Iraq's weapons were destroyed or lost in the
> chaos, which included burning of major government ministries.

The US intel report to congress reviewed over 300 MILLION pages! NO EVIDENCE
of WMD was their conculsion.

>
> Saddam began dispersing his weapons and sending elements of his
> chemical, biological and nuclear programs out of the country in the
> weeks before the war, he said.

But the entire US admin who were assuring the world that they knew wher the
WMD were were completly fooled by Saddam moving all these WMD beneath their
very eyes?
>
> The dispersal included moving both weapons and equipment as well as
> documents. The activity began before the United Nations began arms
> inspections last fall.
>
> "What we saw with the avoidance of inspections, there was clearly an
> effort to disperse, bury, conceal certain equipment prior to
> inspections," Gen. Clapper said.

That is meant to be a sensible sentence is it? In spite of that WHAT was
concealed? Where is it now ? Show it to us!


>> As for shipping weapons out of Iraq, he said, there is "no question"
> that people and material were taken to Syria. He said he did not know
> whether material also was moved to Iran.


Yes a million people! They were all obvoiusly terrorists and NOT refugees.
the population of Bhagdad is now 75 per cent Sunni when it was 65 per cent.
From two thirds to three quarters. Obviously they all left to help Saddam
move WMD. LOL!

>
> Convoys of vehicles, mostly commercial trucks, were spotted going into
> Syria from Iraq shortly before the start of the war March 19 and
> during the conflict, he said.
>

How many? what size convoy? Times and dates? photos of them please? Funny
how the official report doe snot agree with you biased website isn't it?

If you claim this is evidence please how the photos backing this up. You
claim this is evidence do you? well produce it.

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Merlin" <johndoe99@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:7b725c0e-351f-4b86-ada6-32a59bcf3a28@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 29, 4:49 pm, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:
> "Merlin" <johndo...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>
> news:65276240-438d-4743-b343-2c5064a8afb7@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 5, 2:42 pm, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:
>
> > If you want to train terrorists you train them to hijack planes and NOT
> > how
> > to get into grounded planes! for that you only need the INSIDE of a
> > plane.
> > You use planes on the ground to train COUNTER TERRORISTS!
>
> [snip]
> "Sorry everyone, we have to fly this 747 around in circles so we can
> train our terrorists how to take one over."
>
> > You do not need an airplane body to train terrorists to take it over in
> > the air! You need a mockup of the interior not the >EXTERIOR! Hijackings
> > happen almost entirely in the AIR. the hijackers do NOT break into the
> > plane from outside! As such they >do NOT need a fusilage. they need an
> > interior! It would be highly unlikely they would put such an interior
> > out
> > in public view!

Well golly gee wiz be-a-con, you know almost everything, don't you?

> I know Military training but
> this is so glaringly obvious. Can you list even ONE hijacking where
> terrorists took over a plane from the outside on the ground?
> But you want us to believe this base to train hijackers trained in these
> very tactics?
> if you can show a flaw in my point them show it!


>
>
> > really how so? Why would terrorists need a fuselage outdoors? why would
> > they train on one? Of all the airline hijacks that ever occurred can you
> > name even one that involved the hijackers entering the plane by
> > attacking
> > it when grounded from outside?
> > In fact one of the first rules of counter terrorism in this situation is
> > to get a plane grounded. The threat of terrorists is by FAR increased by
> > having control of an AIRBORNE plane!

You state the ****ing obvious like you just invented it. You really
are that ****ing stupid.


> In fact YOU are the one who came into this suggesting this was a terrorist
> training camp!
> Now you are contradicting yourself!

It was in fact a counter terrorism training camp! Salman Pak had all sorts
of rumours and several different sites in the one area but the official
report also deals with teh Islamist training camp story . read it here:

http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf
look at page 83 where the DIA say "there is no credible reporting on Al
Khyda training at Salman Paxk or anyehre else in Iraq"
Thats BEFORE the invasion! But if yu move on further (page 84) even the CIA
admit it was wrong!

Then in page 85 you will note their opinion about Saddam supporting
Islamists even if by offering then a safe heaven.
Their opinion - Saddam DIDNT!

That is the corroberated statments of several security agencies after they
reviewed the available evidence!
But you want to believe in WMD don't you? Even when you never find any you
want to believe. Just like yu want to believe the neocons will be in power
this time next year? LOL. Bye bye. No amount of wishing for WMD wil make
them appear when they are not there!

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Merlin" <johndoe99@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:caf0a8f3-2187-4d28-8cf6-74b089f54e0d@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 26, 12:32 pm, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

[snip]


> Im waiting for you evidence but i haven't seen any yet!

Yes you have, liar. Go look it up. I'm not showing it to you AGAIN.

> Nope you haven't . unlike my counter evidence which is here:
http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

 

[Race Bannon]

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:19:26 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>
>"Hansie Katzenjammer" <der@inspector.vot> wrote in message
>news:nksdn3lee6lhm19ln56sgdvcb5k39v15j5@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:27:25 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>>
>>>
>>>"Fritz Katzenjammer" <der@captain.vot> wrote in message
>>>news:f32dn3h0utem373vtt1j033jpfi557g2u2@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:15:52 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>> Is your life.
>>>>
>>>> DIE NOW!
>>>
>>>Frita will be gon in a few days and he STILL wont have posted evidence
>>
>> It was posted scumbag.
>>
>> Stop being a LIAR!
>>
>> http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={1070B31C-E4BE-409C-ABAF-70DB2030DAF2}
>
>
>Here is wat i posted

Don't care, you're an insane obsessive denier of reality.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml?s=lh

"Smesko had gotten to know Gen. James Clapper, now director of the
Geospacial Intelligence Agency, but then head of DIA," Shaw said.

But it was Shaw's own friendship to the head of Britain's MI6 that
brought it all together during a two-day meeting in London that
included Smeshko's people, the MI6 contingent, and Clapper, who had
been deputized by George Tenet to help work the issue of what happened
to Iraq's WMD stockpiles.

In the end, here is what Shaw learned:


In December 2002, former Russian intelligence chief Yevgeni Primakov,
a KGB general with long-standing ties to Saddam, came to Iraq and
stayed until just before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.

Primakov supervised the execution of long-standing secret agreements,
signed between Iraqi intelligence and the Russian GRU (military
intelligence), that provided for clean-up operations to be conducted
by Russian and Iraqi military personnel to remove WMDs, production
materials and technical documentation from Iraq, so the regime could
announce that Iraq was "WMD free."

Shaw said that this type GRU operation, known as "Sarandar," or
"emergency exit," has long been familiar to U.S. intelligence
officials from Soviet-bloc defectors as standard GRU practice.

In addition to the truck convoys, which carried Iraqi WMD to Syria and
Lebanon in February and March 2003 "two Russian ships set sail from
the (Iraqi) port of Umm Qasr headed for the Indian Ocean," where Shaw
believes they "deep-sixed" additional stockpiles of Iraqi WMD from
flooded bunkers in southern Iraq that were later discovered by U.S.
military intelligence personnel.

The Russian "clean-up" operation was entrusted to a combination of GRU
and Spetsnaz troops and Russian military and civilian personnel in
Iraq "under the command of two experienced ex-Soviet generals,
Colonel-General Vladislav Achatov and Colonel-General Igor Maltsev,
both retired and posing as civilian commercial consultants."

Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz reported on Oct. 30, 2004, that
Achatov and Maltsev had been photographed receiving medals from Iraqi
Defense Minister Sultan Hashim Ahmed in a Baghdad building bombed by
U.S. cruise missiles during the first U.S. air raids in early March
2003.

Shaw says he leaked the information about the two Russian generals and
the clean-up operation to Gertz in October 2004 in an effort to "push
back" against claims by Democrats that were orchestrated with CBS News
to embarrass President Bush just one week before the November 2004
presidential election. The press sprang bogus claims that 377 tons of
high explosives of use to Iraq's nuclear weapons program had "gone
missing" after the U.S.-led liberation of Iraq, while ignoring
intelligence of the Russian-orchestrated evacuation of Iraqi WMDs.

The two Russian generals "had visited Baghdad no fewer than 20 times
in the preceding five to six years," Shaw revealed. U.S. intelligence
knew "the identity and strength of the various Spetsnaz units, their
dates of entry and exit in Iraq, and the fact that the effort (to
clean up Iraq's WMD stockpiles) with a planning conference in Baku
from which they flew to Baghdad."

The Baku conference, chaired by Russian Minister of Emergency
Situations Sergei Shoigu, "laid out the plans for the Sarandar
clean-up effort so that Shoigu could leave after the keynote speech
for Baghdad to orchestrate the planning for the disposal of the WMD."

Subsequent intelligence reports showed that Russian Spetsnaz
operatives "were now changing to civilian clothes from military/GRU
garb," Shaw said. "The Russian denial of my revelations in late
October 2004 included the statement that "only Russian civilians
remained in Baghdad." That was the "only true statement" the Russians
made, Shaw ironized.
The evacuation of Saddam's WMD to Syria and Lebanon "was an entirely
controlled Russian GRU operation," Shaw said. "It was the brainchild
of General Yevgenuy Primakov."

The goal of the clean-up was "to erase all trace of Russian
involvement" in Saddam's WMD programs, and "was a masterpiece of
military camouflage and deception."

Just as astonishing as the Russian clean-up operation were efforts by
Bush administration appointees, including Defense Department spokesman
Laurence DiRita, to smear Shaw and to cover up the intelligence
information he brought to light.

"Larry DiRita made sure that this story would never grow legs," Shaw
said. "He whispered sotto voce [quietly] to journalists that there was
no substance to my information and that it was the product of an
unbalanced mind."

Shaw suggested that the answer of why the Bush administration had
systematically "ignored Russia's involvement" in evacuating Saddam's
WMD stockpiles "could be much bigger than anyone has thought," but
declined to speculate what exactly was involved.

Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney was less reticent. He
thought the reason was Iran.

"With Iran moving faster than anyone thought in its nuclear programs,"
he told NewsMax, "the administration needed the Russians, the Chinese
and the French, and was not interested in information that would make
them look bad."

http://www.nysun.com/article/27000

Mr. Duelfer's predecessor, in his October 2, 2003 testimony to the
House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, David Kay said,
"Deliberate dispersal and destruction of material and documentation
related to weapons programs began pre-conflict and ran trans-to-post
conflict."

A former colonel for Israeli military intelligence who worked on Iraqi
issues, Miri Eisin, says of a transfer of weapons to Syria, "I don't
know all of it, but some things went in that route. At the end of the
day, it would be the type of things they could hide. This would strike
out the biological type things, but they could get chemical weapons,
possibly residual missile parts."

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2003/ss_syria_10_29.html

For the first time, the U.S. intelligence community has released an
assessment that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were transferred to
neighboring Syria in the weeks prior to the U.S.-led war against the
Saddam Hussein regime.

U.S. officials said the assessment was based on satellite images of
convoys of Iraqi trucks that poured into Syria in February and March
2003.

Officials said the briefing yesterday to U.S. defense reporters was
based on the assessments of NIMA and the rest of the intelligence
community, Middle East Newsline reported. But they stressed that the
community was not united in determining the fate or whereabouts of
suspected Iraqi WMD.

However most of the community, they said, has concluded that at least
some of the Iraqi WMD, along with Iraqi scientists and technicians,
was transferred to Syria.

The U.S. intelligence assessment was discussed publicly for the first
time by the director of the National Imagery and Mapping Agency in a
briefing in Washington on Tuesday. James Clapper, a retired air force
general and a leading member of the U.S. intelligence community, said
he linked the disappearance of Iraqi WMD with the huge number of Iraqi
trucks that entered Syria before and during the U.S. military campaign
to topple the Saddam regime.
"I think personally that the [Iraqi] senior leadership saw what was
coming and I think they went to some extraordinary lengths to dispose
of the evidence," Clapper said. "I'll call it an educated hunch."

The officials said the intelligence community assessed that the trucks
contained missiles and WMD components banned by the United Nations
Security Council.

Officials said there is less evidence that WMD and missile components
were sent to Iran.

Clapper said Iraqi officials, from below the level of Saddam's sons
Uday and Qusay, feared U.S. discovery of Iraqi biological and chemical
weapons and ordered subordinates to conceal and destroy evidence of
WMD in early 2003. He said he was certain that components connected to
Iraq's biological, chemical and nuclear programs were sent to Syria in
the weeks prior to and during the war, which began on March 19.

"I think probably in the few months prior to the onset of combat,
there was probably an intensive effort to disperse to private homes,
to move documentation and materials out of the country," Clapper said.
"But certainly, inferentially, the obvious conclusion one draws is
that the certain uptick in traffic [to Syria] may have been people
leaving the scene, fleeing Iraq, and unquestionably, I am sure,
material."

The NIMA chief acknowledged that U.S. spy satellites did not identify
the cargo transported by the Iraqi trucks into Syria. He said that
much of the Iraqi WMD remained in the country and was either concealed
or destroyed even as the U.S. military captured Baghdad in April.

Clapper said he suspected that the looting throughout Sunni cities in
Iraq in April was directed by Saddam loyalists to serve as a diversion
for the destruction or transfer of WMD components from government or
other installations targeted by U.S. intelligence. The United States
has never found biological, chemical or nuclear weapons in Iraq.

"So by the time that we got to a lot of these facilities, that we had
previously identified as suspect facilities, there wasn't that much
there to look at," Clapper said.

NIMA, which will be renamed the National Geospatial-Intelligence
Agency, is responsible for the analysis of satellite imagery for the
U.S. intelligence community. The agency, which deployed 90 staffers
during the Iraq war, also produces map and other surveillance data in
cooperation with the National Reconnaissance Office.

The leading agencies in the intelligence community are the CIA, the
Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency,
NIMA and the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research.
These agencies are responsible for the annual National Intelligence
Estimate.

"Based on the evidence we had at the time, I thought the conclusions
we reached about the presence of at least a latent WMD program was
accurate and balanced," Clapper said.

 

[Race Bannon]

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:33:50 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>But you want to believe in WMD don't you? Even when you never find any you
>want to believe.


http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml?s=lh

"Smesko had gotten to know Gen. James Clapper, now director of the
Geospacial Intelligence Agency, but then head of DIA," Shaw said.

But it was Shaw's own friendship to the head of Britain's MI6 that
brought it all together during a two-day meeting in London that
included Smeshko's people, the MI6 contingent, and Clapper, who had
been deputized by George Tenet to help work the issue of what happened
to Iraq's WMD stockpiles.

In the end, here is what Shaw learned:


In December 2002, former Russian intelligence chief Yevgeni Primakov,
a KGB general with long-standing ties to Saddam, came to Iraq and
stayed until just before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.

Primakov supervised the execution of long-standing secret agreements,
signed between Iraqi intelligence and the Russian GRU (military
intelligence), that provided for clean-up operations to be conducted
by Russian and Iraqi military personnel to remove WMDs, production
materials and technical documentation from Iraq, so the regime could
announce that Iraq was "WMD free."

Shaw said that this type GRU operation, known as "Sarandar," or
"emergency exit," has long been familiar to U.S. intelligence
officials from Soviet-bloc defectors as standard GRU practice.

In addition to the truck convoys, which carried Iraqi WMD to Syria and
Lebanon in February and March 2003 "two Russian ships set sail from
the (Iraqi) port of Umm Qasr headed for the Indian Ocean," where Shaw
believes they "deep-sixed" additional stockpiles of Iraqi WMD from
flooded bunkers in southern Iraq that were later discovered by U.S.
military intelligence personnel.

The Russian "clean-up" operation was entrusted to a combination of GRU
and Spetsnaz troops and Russian military and civilian personnel in
Iraq "under the command of two experienced ex-Soviet generals,
Colonel-General Vladislav Achatov and Colonel-General Igor Maltsev,
both retired and posing as civilian commercial consultants."

Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz reported on Oct. 30, 2004, that
Achatov and Maltsev had been photographed receiving medals from Iraqi
Defense Minister Sultan Hashim Ahmed in a Baghdad building bombed by
U.S. cruise missiles during the first U.S. air raids in early March
2003.

Shaw says he leaked the information about the two Russian generals and
the clean-up operation to Gertz in October 2004 in an effort to "push
back" against claims by Democrats that were orchestrated with CBS News
to embarrass President Bush just one week before the November 2004
presidential election. The press sprang bogus claims that 377 tons of
high explosives of use to Iraq's nuclear weapons program had "gone
missing" after the U.S.-led liberation of Iraq, while ignoring
intelligence of the Russian-orchestrated evacuation of Iraqi WMDs.

The two Russian generals "had visited Baghdad no fewer than 20 times
in the preceding five to six years," Shaw revealed. U.S. intelligence
knew "the identity and strength of the various Spetsnaz units, their
dates of entry and exit in Iraq, and the fact that the effort (to
clean up Iraq's WMD stockpiles) with a planning conference in Baku
from which they flew to Baghdad."

The Baku conference, chaired by Russian Minister of Emergency
Situations Sergei Shoigu, "laid out the plans for the Sarandar
clean-up effort so that Shoigu could leave after the keynote speech
for Baghdad to orchestrate the planning for the disposal of the WMD."

Subsequent intelligence reports showed that Russian Spetsnaz
operatives "were now changing to civilian clothes from military/GRU
garb," Shaw said. "The Russian denial of my revelations in late
October 2004 included the statement that "only Russian civilians
remained in Baghdad." That was the "only true statement" the Russians
made, Shaw ironized.
The evacuation of Saddam's WMD to Syria and Lebanon "was an entirely
controlled Russian GRU operation," Shaw said. "It was the brainchild
of General Yevgenuy Primakov."

The goal of the clean-up was "to erase all trace of Russian
involvement" in Saddam's WMD programs, and "was a masterpiece of
military camouflage and deception."

Just as astonishing as the Russian clean-up operation were efforts by
Bush administration appointees, including Defense Department spokesman
Laurence DiRita, to smear Shaw and to cover up the intelligence
information he brought to light.

"Larry DiRita made sure that this story would never grow legs," Shaw
said. "He whispered sotto voce [quietly] to journalists that there was
no substance to my information and that it was the product of an
unbalanced mind."

Shaw suggested that the answer of why the Bush administration had
systematically "ignored Russia's involvement" in evacuating Saddam's
WMD stockpiles "could be much bigger than anyone has thought," but
declined to speculate what exactly was involved.

Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney was less reticent. He
thought the reason was Iran.

"With Iran moving faster than anyone thought in its nuclear programs,"
he told NewsMax, "the administration needed the Russians, the Chinese
and the French, and was not interested in information that would make
them look bad."

http://www.nysun.com/article/27000

Mr. Duelfer's predecessor, in his October 2, 2003 testimony to the
House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, David Kay said,
"Deliberate dispersal and destruction of material and documentation
related to weapons programs began pre-conflict and ran trans-to-post
conflict."

A former colonel for Israeli military intelligence who worked on Iraqi
issues, Miri Eisin, says of a transfer of weapons to Syria, "I don't
know all of it, but some things went in that route. At the end of the
day, it would be the type of things they could hide. This would strike
out the biological type things, but they could get chemical weapons,
possibly residual missile parts."

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2003/ss_syria_10_29.html

For the first time, the U.S. intelligence community has released an
assessment that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were transferred to
neighboring Syria in the weeks prior to the U.S.-led war against the
Saddam Hussein regime.

U.S. officials said the assessment was based on satellite images of
convoys of Iraqi trucks that poured into Syria in February and March
2003.

Officials said the briefing yesterday to U.S. defense reporters was
based on the assessments of NIMA and the rest of the intelligence
community, Middle East Newsline reported. But they stressed that the
community was not united in determining the fate or whereabouts of
suspected Iraqi WMD.

However most of the community, they said, has concluded that at least
some of the Iraqi WMD, along with Iraqi scientists and technicians,
was transferred to Syria.

The U.S. intelligence assessment was discussed publicly for the first
time by the director of the National Imagery and Mapping Agency in a
briefing in Washington on Tuesday. James Clapper, a retired air force
general and a leading member of the U.S. intelligence community, said
he linked the disappearance of Iraqi WMD with the huge number of Iraqi
trucks that entered Syria before and during the U.S. military campaign
to topple the Saddam regime.
"I think personally that the [Iraqi] senior leadership saw what was
coming and I think they went to some extraordinary lengths to dispose
of the evidence," Clapper said. "I'll call it an educated hunch."

The officials said the intelligence community assessed that the trucks
contained missiles and WMD components banned by the United Nations
Security Council.

Officials said there is less evidence that WMD and missile components
were sent to Iran.

Clapper said Iraqi officials, from below the level of Saddam's sons
Uday and Qusay, feared U.S. discovery of Iraqi biological and chemical
weapons and ordered subordinates to conceal and destroy evidence of
WMD in early 2003. He said he was certain that components connected to
Iraq's biological, chemical and nuclear programs were sent to Syria in
the weeks prior to and during the war, which began on March 19.

"I think probably in the few months prior to the onset of combat,
there was probably an intensive effort to disperse to private homes,
to move documentation and materials out of the country," Clapper said.
"But certainly, inferentially, the obvious conclusion one draws is
that the certain uptick in traffic [to Syria] may have been people
leaving the scene, fleeing Iraq, and unquestionably, I am sure,
material."

The NIMA chief acknowledged that U.S. spy satellites did not identify
the cargo transported by the Iraqi trucks into Syria. He said that
much of the Iraqi WMD remained in the country and was either concealed
or destroyed even as the U.S. military captured Baghdad in April.

Clapper said he suspected that the looting throughout Sunni cities in
Iraq in April was directed by Saddam loyalists to serve as a diversion
for the destruction or transfer of WMD components from government or
other installations targeted by U.S. intelligence. The United States
has never found biological, chemical or nuclear weapons in Iraq.

"So by the time that we got to a lot of these facilities, that we had
previously identified as suspect facilities, there wasn't that much
there to look at," Clapper said.

NIMA, which will be renamed the National Geospatial-Intelligence
Agency, is responsible for the analysis of satellite imagery for the
U.S. intelligence community. The agency, which deployed 90 staffers
during the Iraq war, also produces map and other surveillance data in
cooperation with the National Reconnaissance Office.

The leading agencies in the intelligence community are the CIA, the
Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency,
NIMA and the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research.
These agencies are responsible for the annual National Intelligence
Estimate.

"Based on the evidence we had at the time, I thought the conclusions
we reached about the presence of at least a latent WMD program was
accurate and balanced," Clapper said.

 

[Race Bannon]

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:34:48 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml?s=lh

"Smesko had gotten to know Gen. James Clapper, now director of the
Geospacial Intelligence Agency, but then head of DIA," Shaw said.

But it was Shaw's own friendship to the head of Britain's MI6 that
brought it all together during a two-day meeting in London that
included Smeshko's people, the MI6 contingent, and Clapper, who had
been deputized by George Tenet to help work the issue of what happened
to Iraq's WMD stockpiles.

In the end, here is what Shaw learned:


In December 2002, former Russian intelligence chief Yevgeni Primakov,
a KGB general with long-standing ties to Saddam, came to Iraq and
stayed until just before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.

Primakov supervised the execution of long-standing secret agreements,
signed between Iraqi intelligence and the Russian GRU (military
intelligence), that provided for clean-up operations to be conducted
by Russian and Iraqi military personnel to remove WMDs, production
materials and technical documentation from Iraq, so the regime could
announce that Iraq was "WMD free."

Shaw said that this type GRU operation, known as "Sarandar," or
"emergency exit," has long been familiar to U.S. intelligence
officials from Soviet-bloc defectors as standard GRU practice.

In addition to the truck convoys, which carried Iraqi WMD to Syria and
Lebanon in February and March 2003 "two Russian ships set sail from
the (Iraqi) port of Umm Qasr headed for the Indian Ocean," where Shaw
believes they "deep-sixed" additional stockpiles of Iraqi WMD from
flooded bunkers in southern Iraq that were later discovered by U.S.
military intelligence personnel.

The Russian "clean-up" operation was entrusted to a combination of GRU
and Spetsnaz troops and Russian military and civilian personnel in
Iraq "under the command of two experienced ex-Soviet generals,
Colonel-General Vladislav Achatov and Colonel-General Igor Maltsev,
both retired and posing as civilian commercial consultants."

Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz reported on Oct. 30, 2004, that
Achatov and Maltsev had been photographed receiving medals from Iraqi
Defense Minister Sultan Hashim Ahmed in a Baghdad building bombed by
U.S. cruise missiles during the first U.S. air raids in early March
2003.

Shaw says he leaked the information about the two Russian generals and
the clean-up operation to Gertz in October 2004 in an effort to "push
back" against claims by Democrats that were orchestrated with CBS News
to embarrass President Bush just one week before the November 2004
presidential election. The press sprang bogus claims that 377 tons of
high explosives of use to Iraq's nuclear weapons program had "gone
missing" after the U.S.-led liberation of Iraq, while ignoring
intelligence of the Russian-orchestrated evacuation of Iraqi WMDs.

The two Russian generals "had visited Baghdad no fewer than 20 times
in the preceding five to six years," Shaw revealed. U.S. intelligence
knew "the identity and strength of the various Spetsnaz units, their
dates of entry and exit in Iraq, and the fact that the effort (to
clean up Iraq's WMD stockpiles) with a planning conference in Baku
from which they flew to Baghdad."

The Baku conference, chaired by Russian Minister of Emergency
Situations Sergei Shoigu, "laid out the plans for the Sarandar
clean-up effort so that Shoigu could leave after the keynote speech
for Baghdad to orchestrate the planning for the disposal of the WMD."

Subsequent intelligence reports showed that Russian Spetsnaz
operatives "were now changing to civilian clothes from military/GRU
garb," Shaw said. "The Russian denial of my revelations in late
October 2004 included the statement that "only Russian civilians
remained in Baghdad." That was the "only true statement" the Russians
made, Shaw ironized.
The evacuation of Saddam's WMD to Syria and Lebanon "was an entirely
controlled Russian GRU operation," Shaw said. "It was the brainchild
of General Yevgenuy Primakov."

The goal of the clean-up was "to erase all trace of Russian
involvement" in Saddam's WMD programs, and "was a masterpiece of
military camouflage and deception."

Just as astonishing as the Russian clean-up operation were efforts by
Bush administration appointees, including Defense Department spokesman
Laurence DiRita, to smear Shaw and to cover up the intelligence
information he brought to light.

"Larry DiRita made sure that this story would never grow legs," Shaw
said. "He whispered sotto voce [quietly] to journalists that there was
no substance to my information and that it was the product of an
unbalanced mind."

Shaw suggested that the answer of why the Bush administration had
systematically "ignored Russia's involvement" in evacuating Saddam's
WMD stockpiles "could be much bigger than anyone has thought," but
declined to speculate what exactly was involved.

Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney was less reticent. He
thought the reason was Iran.

"With Iran moving faster than anyone thought in its nuclear programs,"
he told NewsMax, "the administration needed the Russians, the Chinese
and the French, and was not interested in information that would make
them look bad."

http://www.nysun.com/article/27000

Mr. Duelfer's predecessor, in his October 2, 2003 testimony to the
House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, David Kay said,
"Deliberate dispersal and destruction of material and documentation
related to weapons programs began pre-conflict and ran trans-to-post
conflict."

A former colonel for Israeli military intelligence who worked on Iraqi
issues, Miri Eisin, says of a transfer of weapons to Syria, "I don't
know all of it, but some things went in that route. At the end of the
day, it would be the type of things they could hide. This would strike
out the biological type things, but they could get chemical weapons,
possibly residual missile parts."

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2003/ss_syria_10_29.html

For the first time, the U.S. intelligence community has released an
assessment that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were transferred to
neighboring Syria in the weeks prior to the U.S.-led war against the
Saddam Hussein regime.

U.S. officials said the assessment was based on satellite images of
convoys of Iraqi trucks that poured into Syria in February and March
2003.

Officials said the briefing yesterday to U.S. defense reporters was
based on the assessments of NIMA and the rest of the intelligence
community, Middle East Newsline reported. But they stressed that the
community was not united in determining the fate or whereabouts of
suspected Iraqi WMD.

However most of the community, they said, has concluded that at least
some of the Iraqi WMD, along with Iraqi scientists and technicians,
was transferred to Syria.

The U.S. intelligence assessment was discussed publicly for the first
time by the director of the National Imagery and Mapping Agency in a
briefing in Washington on Tuesday. James Clapper, a retired air force
general and a leading member of the U.S. intelligence community, said
he linked the disappearance of Iraqi WMD with the huge number of Iraqi
trucks that entered Syria before and during the U.S. military campaign
to topple the Saddam regime.
"I think personally that the [Iraqi] senior leadership saw what was
coming and I think they went to some extraordinary lengths to dispose
of the evidence," Clapper said. "I'll call it an educated hunch."

The officials said the intelligence community assessed that the trucks
contained missiles and WMD components banned by the United Nations
Security Council.

Officials said there is less evidence that WMD and missile components
were sent to Iran.

Clapper said Iraqi officials, from below the level of Saddam's sons
Uday and Qusay, feared U.S. discovery of Iraqi biological and chemical
weapons and ordered subordinates to conceal and destroy evidence of
WMD in early 2003. He said he was certain that components connected to
Iraq's biological, chemical and nuclear programs were sent to Syria in
the weeks prior to and during the war, which began on March 19.

"I think probably in the few months prior to the onset of combat,
there was probably an intensive effort to disperse to private homes,
to move documentation and materials out of the country," Clapper said.
"But certainly, inferentially, the obvious conclusion one draws is
that the certain uptick in traffic [to Syria] may have been people
leaving the scene, fleeing Iraq, and unquestionably, I am sure,
material."

The NIMA chief acknowledged that U.S. spy satellites did not identify
the cargo transported by the Iraqi trucks into Syria. He said that
much of the Iraqi WMD remained in the country and was either concealed
or destroyed even as the U.S. military captured Baghdad in April.

Clapper said he suspected that the looting throughout Sunni cities in
Iraq in April was directed by Saddam loyalists to serve as a diversion
for the destruction or transfer of WMD components from government or
other installations targeted by U.S. intelligence. The United States
has never found biological, chemical or nuclear weapons in Iraq.

"So by the time that we got to a lot of these facilities, that we had
previously identified as suspect facilities, there wasn't that much
there to look at," Clapper said.

NIMA, which will be renamed the National Geospatial-Intelligence
Agency, is responsible for the analysis of satellite imagery for the
U.S. intelligence community. The agency, which deployed 90 staffers
during the Iraq war, also produces map and other surveillance data in
cooperation with the National Reconnaissance Office.

The leading agencies in the intelligence community are the CIA, the
Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency,
NIMA and the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research.
These agencies are responsible for the annual National Intelligence
Estimate.

"Based on the evidence we had at the time, I thought the conclusions
we reached about the presence of at least a latent WMD program was
accurate and balanced," Clapper said.

 

[Merlin]

On Dec 29, 10:34

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Race Bannon" <johnny@quest.ir> wrote in message
news:r4aen3ds189ua2fpbqbvumj1i0tki2o0b7@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:19:26 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>
>>
>>"Hansie Katzenjammer" <der@inspector.vot> wrote in message
>>news:nksdn3lee6lhm19ln56sgdvcb5k39v15j5@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:27:25 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
>>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Fritz Katzenjammer" <der@captain.vot> wrote in message
>>>>news:f32dn3h0utem373vtt1j033jpfi557g2u2@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:15:52 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>[snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> Is your life.
>>>>>
>>>>> DIE NOW!
>>>>
>>>>Frita will be gon in a few days and he STILL wont have posted evidence
>>>
>>> It was posted scumbag.
>>>
>>> Stop being a LIAR!
>>>
>>> http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={1070B31C-E4BE-409C-ABAF-70DB2030DAF2}
>>
>>
>>Here is wat i posted
>
> Don't care, you're an insane obsessive denier of reality.
>
> http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml?s=lh
>
> "Smesko had gotten to know Gen. James Clapper, now director of the
> Geospacial Intelligence Agency, but then head of DIA," Shaw said.
>
> But it was Shaw's own friendship to the head of Britain's MI6 that
> brought it all together during a two-day meeting in London that
> included Smeshko's people, the MI6 contingent, and Clapper, who had
> been deputized by George Tenet to help work the issue of what happened
> to Iraq's WMD stockpiles.


The SAME George Tenet who tried to barrak colin Powell into claiming Al
quaeda likks in his speech to the UN? Who sat behind Powell when he gave it
giving him creedence? That Tenet?

The Director of the CIA Tenet which in this report:
http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

includes a CIA determination that prior to March 2003, Saddam Hussein ''did
not have a relationship, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward [Abu Musab al
Zarqawi] and his associates.'' Instead, he "attempted, unsuccessfully, to
locate and capture al Zarqawi." A US airstrike killed al Zarqawi this
summer?

That "fool me once" Tenet?


>
> In the end, here is what Shaw learned:
>
>
> In December 2002, former Russian intelligence chief Yevgeni Primakov,
> a KGB general with long-standing ties to Saddam, came to Iraq and
> stayed until just before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.
>
> Primakov supervised the execution of long-standing secret agreements,
> signed between Iraqi intelligence and the Russian GRU (military
> intelligence), that provided for clean-up operations to be conducted
> by Russian and Iraqi military personnel to remove WMDs, production
> materials and technical documentation from Iraq, so the regime could
> announce that Iraq was "WMD free."


Primakov eh?


http://intellit.org/russia_folder/pcw_era/sect_13b.htm

Primakov's claim was clearly impossible because charges of Soviet
involvement in the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II began to
appear in 1981 and 1982, well before the USSR's AIDS disinformation campaign
began. (The original AIDS charge, planted in the KGB-founded Indian
newspaper Patriot in July 1983, went unnoticed by the world until October
1985, when the Soviets began to replay it in a concerted media campaign.)
Even if the U.S. government had wished to respond to the AIDS disinformation
campaign in kind - which it did not - it could not have retaliated for
something that had not yet occurred. Furthermore, charges of Soviet
involvement in the attempted papal assassination were the result of
investigations by independent journalists, not the U.S. government, which
never blamed the USSR for this event.

[end excerpt]



Not a very reliable source is he?


Read more about the above report here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Report_of_Pre-war_Intelligence_on_Iraq
Two volumes of the phase II report were released on September 8, 2006:
"Postwar Findings about Iraq's WMD Programs and Links to Terrorism and How
they Compare with Prewar Assessments" and "The Use by the Intelligence
Community of Information Provided by the Iraqi National Congress." The
conclusions of these reports were that there was no prewar evidence that
Saddam was building weapons of mass destruction and there was no evidence
that Saddam had links to al-Qaeda.

From The Report Above


a.. "Postwar findings do not support the 2002 National Intelligence
Estimate judgment that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program.
Information obtained after the war supports the State Department's Bureau of
Intelligence and Research's (INR) assessment in the NIE that the
Intelligence Community lacked persuasive evidence that Baghdad had launched
a coherent effort to reconstitute its nuclear weapons program." (p 52)
b.. "Postwar findings do not support the 2002 National Intelligence
Estimate judgment that Iraq's acquisition of high strength aluminum tubes
was intended for an Iraqi nuclear program. The findings do support the
assessments in the NIE of the Department of Engergy's Office of Intelligence
and the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research's (INR) that
the aluminum tubes were likely intended for a conventional rocket program."
(p 52)
c.. "Postwar findings do not support the 2002 National Intelligence
Estimate judgment that Iraq was 'vigorously trying to procure uranium ore
and yellowcake' from Africa. Postwar findings support the assessment in the
NIE of the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research's (INR)
that claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa are 'highly
dubious.'" (p 53)
d.. "No postwar information indicates that Iraq intended to use al Qaeda
or any other terrorist group to strike the United States homeland before or
during Operation Iraqi Freedom." The 2002 NIE, however, asserted that Iraq
would "probably attempt clandestine attacks" if Hussein felt threatened. (p
111)
[snip]

>
> In addition to the truck convoys, which carried Iraqi WMD to Syria and
> Lebanon in February and March 2003 "two Russian ships set sail from
> the (Iraqi) port of Umm Qasr headed for the Indian Ocean," where Shaw
> believes they "deep-sixed" additional stockpiles of Iraqi WMD from
> flooded bunkers in southern Iraq that were later discovered by U.S.
> military intelligence personnel.

what were the name of these ships? when did they sail ? From where to where?


conssidering there had been a TEN YEAR EMBARGO on all trade from Iraq and
that Basra and the Gulf had not just the sixth but also the seventh fleet
(correct me if i am wrong) alonf with Saudi, Iranian Kewati and loads of
other people watching this particular route (remember it is the centre of
world oil?)!

Uncanny! Even better than crossing a thousand kilometres of desert! iraq
managed to make a ship invisible to allow it to pass through these waters!
Not alone that but they unloaded WMD in JORDAN right under saudi and US eyes
and magically shipped iot to syria! LOL! This is even more unbelievable than
them using all the WMD against the US.

>
> [snip]
> The goal of the clean-up was "to erase all trace of Russian
> involvement" in Saddam's WMD programs, and "was a masterpiece of
> military camouflage and deception."

LOL! now it is "the Russioans magicked them away" id it? Look1 the claim
was y know they were there not some rediculous excuse of how by magic the
tooth fairy took them!


>
[snip]
> http://www.nysun.com/article/27000
>
> Mr. Duelfer's predecessor, in his October 2, 2003 testimony to the
> House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, David Kay said,
> "Deliberate dispersal and destruction of material and documentation
> related to weapons programs began pre-conflict and ran trans-to-post
> conflict."

this is the David Kay who later admitted he was wrong was it?

[snip]
>
> http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2003/ss_syria_10_29.html
>
> For the first time, the U.S. intelligence community has released an
> assessment that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were transferred to
> neighboring Syria in the weeks prior to the U.S.-led war against the
> Saddam Hussein regime.

LOL! The "we invaded the wrong poople and killed a million of them when we
should have been somewhere else" climbdown.


>
> U.S. officials said the assessment was based on satellite images of
> convoys of Iraqi trucks that poured into Syria in February and March
> 2003.

I have dealt with this already! If the US had troops on the ground and a no
fly zone how come ONLY satellite pics are available? And how did Iraq cross
1000km of desert unseen?


[snip]

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Hansie Katzenjammer" <der@inspector.vot> wrote in message
news:dg1en3djn7dnen2vvaivvrtvlnafnkurcm@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 01:07:08 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>
>>
>>"Fritz Katzenjammer" <der@captain.vot> wrote in message
>>news:h22dn3lehuvqc7ej1vv735mcj295l22fbn@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:10:59 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
>>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>>
>>>>I have dealt with this
>>>
>>> YOU ARE A LYING SCUMBAG _ DIE NOW!
>>
>>Here is the reference
>
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={1070B31C-E4BE-409C-ABAF-70DB2030DAF2}


and frontpagemage is admittedly biased. but let us se what thaty have to
offer shall we?


[snip - all dealt with in my above reply nothing new here]

 

[Mavisbeacon]

"Race Bannon" <johnny@quest.ir> wrote in message
news:5jaen31oidj7fhhthbqh8hg64aorvrvk80@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:33:50 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:
>
>>But you want to believe in WMD don't you? Even when you never find any you
>>want to believe.
>
>
> http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml?s=lh
>
> "Smesko had gotten to know Gen. James Clapper, now director of the
> Geospacial Intelligence Agency, but then head of DIA," Shaw said.


You have posted this clapper clap trap in three sub threads. I have
responede elsewhere. It is bullshit!

Do you want my reference to the other sub thread or will you just go away. i
suspoect like all the other claptrap posters you wil lbe gone in a few days.
But ill wait and post back is you dont go away.


[snip]