Holocaust Myth?

I have been to that museum and yes, it is disturbing. BUT, I think the controversy is less over whether it happened or not and more about historical accuracy. I think people are under the impression that the numbers are fudged, and there is such a huge fight about attaining accuracy, because somehow the jewish people WANT to either hold onto what happened or use it as a means of gain at least in public opinion and sympathy. Either way, it is still important to at least try to attain historical accuracy in order to keep an objective view and truly LEARN from our past.

There is no question that the numbers are exaggerated, but to what degree s unknown because if you try to investigate you re labeled an anti-Semite and in some instances you can be jailed for it. That fact alone does not help stop the controversy much
 
snafu said:
That's were I went. In DC.
Do you remember the smell?
Wow I couldn't get rid of it for weeks!
Click to expand...

Not to be a smart ass or anything...
But what smell are you refering to?

I know Washington DC smells pretty bad... And I'm sure that Dachau smelt pretty bad... But how did the Holocaust Museum in DC smell bad? And that begs the question... Why did it smell bad? The holocaust happened across the ocean... Did they bottle the smell and import it? Or did they have the nice volks from CSI Germania chemicaly analyze it and have it reproduced here specifically to prove how bad it smelt?

I had 28 friends die on a Jet I was supposed to be on in Alaska, and that smell sticks with me to this day... But, when I go to the Elemendorf Awacs crash memorial, It doesn't smell bad! It's actually kind of nice... Flowers and such... some nice words by the wing commander... They don't spray it down with entrails every morning so you can ****ing relive that day whenever you go to reflect!

If it did indeed smell that bad, I'm going to have to guess that the smell you associate with the death camps is not authentic... And I can't get this feeling out of my head that something is just not right with that...

Does anyone else think this is suspect? Like someone is trying too damned hard to keep something going?

Sorry... I call em like I smell em... Something just is not right...

I would rather be the only one who is wrong, than be wrong with a bunch of other people just to be part of the crowd...
 
Yeah I think you have a point.
It smelled bad not because of the death camps but that the shoes, clothing and other relics were just that. Very old! So maybe they did that on purpose. You leave a bunch of old laundry out for 50 years, it gets pretty ripe.
I never thought of it as a ploy to exaggerate anything.
If it was a ploy it worked on me because it made me sick to my stomach. Add the photo’s and such and it made a profound effect on me.






jokersarewild said:
I do. I was more focused on the ****ed up pictures in the little center thing in one of the rooms talking about the medical experiments, such as seeing how long a Jew could last in cold water so that the scientists would know how well they would need to make the uniforms for the pilots so that they wouldn't die.
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I think that was the focal point of the whole place.
 
I would like to just stop and reiterate my position before you people start to think I am condoning The wholesale slaughter of possibly millions of people...

Nein!

What was done, on whatever scale is agreed upon, is inexcusable... Had Hitler just stuck to his original guns, and deported them all, I would not have a problem... Democracy at its core is a majority rule system, and the Jews, regardless of how powerful, were a minority in Germany at that time... And If the German people one day woke up and said collectively, "WTF!? We invite these people here when no one else will have them peaceably, and the refuse to assimilate, stab us in the back, and then attempt to starve us into submission... **** that! Get out!"... No problem... As long as the transition is done as peacefully as possible, and the ones 'asked' to leave are compensated... No problem...

But, exterminations, medical testing, etc... is inexcusable... EVERYONE, I believe has the right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness... But no one says you have to pursue it in Germany!

My problem with the holocaust is less shallow, and tugs at my distrust of foreign powers as of late... What I see is a people with a 'sorted' record to say the least, trying to capitalize on Western Generosity and sympathy for far too long, by allowing blatant lies and deceit to become mainstream knowledge, perpetuated by the very media they control these days...

I love Israel as an ally against Islam... They are tough scrappy, and seem to have know fear or shortage of balls! But if the US has learned one thing from our Post WWI exploits, it should be that the enemy of our enemy is not nessecerily our friend!

The Soviets, Bin Laden, Saddam, Castro... These people were all considered allies at one time or another and even championed and supplied in an effort to Secretly combat our foes!

We need to keep in mind that while we have similar enemies, Israel has a completely different set of end game goals.

We also need to stop fighting these covert wars against our enemies, and stand up like men and fight them in the open... Don't supply their rival in an attempt to look like we are benevolent... Everyone knows we are sons of bitches... Don't fight Iran by giving Saddam weapons... Don't fight Saddam by trading weapons for hostages with Iran... Dint fight the Soviets by giving Bin Laden Stingers... Don't invade Cuba by dropping off a bunch of poorly trained, shitty equipped Cuban Exiles on a beach and then not give them air support!

Give them a ****ing ultimatum, and if they don't back down... Drill em good!

Now more than ever we need to rethink our friends and allies, and I think a GREAT place to start is in Europe... and at the core of our relationship with Europe is what happened During and after WWI... We need to take a good long hard look at just what REALLY HAPPENED, and decide if we should come clean and bury the hatchet and show some solidarity, or let other nations/people dictate what part of history we are allowed to remember or debate...

History is written by the victors, but even the victors from time to time must come clean and rethink their own stories! Times are changing, and if we don't change with them, we will no longer be part of them, let alone lead them...
 
snafu said:
Jesus Christ! we've already gone through this. How in the **** can you prove to me that every life was accoutned for? They burned records. They tried to destroy as much as posible before they left. You think they didn't kill them as soon as they got there? We can go around and around and around. THERE IS NO MYTH!!!!!!! IT HAPPENED!!!! How many? who the **** knows? Will we ever know the correct number? **** NO!

How many sick people do you think they kept on hand? They can't feed their own armies as fullauto ponted out.

Answer me this. Where
Click to expand...
 
What is Holocaust Denial?

In recent years, more and more attention has been devoted to the supposed danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, newspapers and television warn about the growing influence of those who reject the Holocaust story that some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the Second World War, most of them in gas chambers.

In several countries, including Israel, France, Germany and Austria, "Holocaust denial" is against the law, and "deniers" have been punished with stiff fines and prison sentences. Some frantic Jewish community leaders are calling for similar government measures in North America against so-called "deniers." In Canada, David Matas, Senior Counsel for the "League for Human Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization, says: [1]

The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million. First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust itself.

Often overlooked in this controversy is the crucial question: Just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"?

Six Million?

Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." [2]

Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

Human Soap?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that the Nazis didn't use Jewish fat to make soap? After examining all the evidence (including an actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets), the Nuremberg Tribunal declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap." [3]

In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency "rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true. "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. [4]

Wannsee Conference?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January 1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so, Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail." [5]

Extermination Policy?

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer would have been yes. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg, for example, wrote in the 1961 edition of his study, The Destruction of the European Jews, that there were two Hitler orders for the destruction of Europe's Jews: the first given in the spring of 1941, and the second shortly thereafter. But Hilberg removed mention of any such order from the revised, three-volume edition of his book published in 1985. [6] As Holocaust historian Christopher Browning has noted: [7]

In the new edition, all references in the text to a Hitler decision or Hitler order for the "Final Solution" have been systematically excised. Buried at the bottom of a single footnote stands the solitary reference: "Chronology and circumstances point to a Hitler decision before the summer ended." In the new edition, decisions were not made and orders were not given.

A lack of hard evidence for an extermination order by Hitler has contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into "intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of German-Canadian publisher Ernst Z
 
Gas Chambers

What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out that

most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.

H
 
Excellent post... good looking doing your homework... that is, if you did indeed read it, and not just post it...

It's good to see that not everyone is afraid to do a little research, even if the subject is offensive...
 
I genuinely cannot be ****ed looking into it. I'll maybe skim over one or two of those articals tomorrow. However, I've always went on the theory that History is writen by the victors, who will do anything to blacken and destroy the loser. I believe there was a holocaust but it's been blown way out of proportion.
 
It's heavy ****in' shite mate. I'm not saying, you should be allow to say whatever you want, the laws we got here in the UK are no' to bad, stops incitement to murder n all that, but being locked up for an opinion is moraly ****in' repugnant.
 
The Feotus said:
It's heavy ****in' shite mate. I'm not saying, you should be allow to say whatever you want, the laws we got here in the UK are no' to bad, stops incitement to murder n all that, but being locked up for an opinion is moraly ****in' repugnant.
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Bloody scottish accent in type, LOL
 
Someone please tell me how it was faked.
I have spoken with men, soldiers (old men now) who saw the bodies, who saw the camps. Men from the UK and men from the US, two different armies.
Does anyone really believe that the bodies in the pictures were fake and these men were told to lie and they have continued to maintain it all these years?
I have heard someone saying that the people that died all died of typhus, what, typhus only effects the Jews, not the soldiers watching over them in the internment camps?

As for it being illegal to deny it, that seems a little extreme, that just goes against my belief in freedom of speech.
 
The Feotus said:
I genuinely cannot be ****ed looking into it. I'll maybe skim over one or two of those articals tomorrow. However, I've always went on the theory that History is writen by the victors, who will do anything to blacken and destroy the loser. I believe there was a holocaust but it's been blown way out of proportion.
Click to expand...

that's pretty much my contention.. I've been looking into this **** for years, and the more I read from experts and witnesses, the more I believe we were victims of our own propaganda
 
Lethalfind said:
Someone please tell me how it was faked.
I have spoken with men, soldiers (old men now) who saw the bodies, who saw the camps. Men from the UK and men from the US, two different armies.
Does anyone really believe that the bodies in the pictures were fake and these men were told to lie and they have continued to maintain it all these years?
I have heard someone saying that the people that died all died of typhus, what, typhus only effects the Jews, not the soldiers watching over them in the internment camps?

As for it being illegal to deny it, that seems a little extreme, that just goes against my belief in freedom of speech.
Click to expand...

You have to take some time and sort through some **** to figure out what your position is... Not everyone comes to the same conclusion. Not saying that it didn't happen, but just to what extent is questionable by my standards... But then again, I'm an impiricist... you might believe it wholly...

These are some videos about how it could ahve been faked... TAKE THE TIME TO WATCH THEM... don't just skim through! You could miss something that would either affirm or deny you current beliefs...

Watch this

and this

Stream RealPlayer 56k - Download File (13.4 MB)
Download WINDOWS MEDIA High Res File (64 MB)

there is a very good possibility that we were bamboozled...
 
This guys MAIN claim (other than his little oops when he said the gas chambers at Auschwitz didn't exist) was that more people died from typhus than from execution, which given the living conditions and general epidemic problems in the camps, makes total sense. Apparently it is a crime to claim people died not from execution by the Nazi's but rather from disease. YES the Nazis caused the disease through the conditions they created, but that was not execution. I am not sure if the guy was a Nazi lover, but to date i have found no evidence of such. He is being called a racist and an anti-Semite by the Austrian govt.
 

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