Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible

[Jeckyl]

> Did you ever meet Darwin in person? No
> Where you there when he was writing? No

That doesn't matter .. its not required to be credibel historical evidence.
There are standards and principles for what makes acceptable historical
evidence. You seem to have no idea of what counts as historical evidence,
or are deliberately ignoring it for your own convenience.

> Anything you know about Darwin has been handed down
> to you from previous generations.

No .. we have original information.

> You just believe it because it is written

Not at all, it requires historical proof, and that proof exists, not just in
the form of one particular book he wrote. We do not even have any writing
from Jesus himself at all.

> We trust
> those eye witness who were sent to teach in the name of
> Jesus the Savior

We have no records of what these alleged eye-witnesses said.

> just the way you trust anything written down about Darwin.

We must apply the same standard of historical proof to all cases .. and
there is no credible historical proof of Jesus. You certainly have not
provided any.

 

[Jeckyl]

> YOU KNOW IT FROM WHO? NOT FROM DARWIN HIMSELF.
> You have his picture? How do you know If it is Darwin?
> Did you meet him in person before.
> You see again, somewhere you decide to trust someone who
> reported who Darwin was and wrote. We all depend
> on hearsay

You are being ridiculous now.

> The life of Jesus the Messiah was written by Christian and for
> Christians. If you are clueless as how to read it
> it is because you are not a Christian.

Rubbish. I know how to read. You don't need to be a christian to read or
understand the bible. Only to be brainwashed by it by not reading it
critically.

> Ask me what does the word Christian means.

I know what it means.

> The answer, the one who follow Christ.

Without any historical evidence that that person exists. It is purely
faith.

> Again there would be no christian without Christ

Yeup .. that's must be sad for you.

 

[codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Feb 15, 10:16 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > Why do you think they accepted a list of prophets
> > like a Isaiah, Jeremy, Daniel, Habbakuk, Zakkariah and j'en passe
> > and even compiled their books into a canonical writing, yet rejected
> > Jesus?
> > What rational explanation can you come up with?
>
> He didn't exist.

How do you insult someone who never existed.
Read the Talmud in its pages where Jesus and his mother are
mentioned. It is even stupid to get angry at something which
not real.
Anyway, he existed, but they had issue with his claim that
he was the Messiah that Moses fortold.
"If you believe Moses, you would believe me because
he wrote about me." New Testament.
This the way of a sound scholarship.
The way of malice is yours with baseless claim


>
> > The difference is that Jesus was not just a prophet, but the Messiah-
> > Prophet
> > foretold by Moses. You are such a jerk
>
> The Jewish faith has never accepted Jesus as messiah/Christ.


Yet the Jewish faith is expected Messiah/Christ based on Deuteronnmy
18:15, this what the point was

>
> Please quote a reference in accepted Jewish text that cites Jesus as the
> messiah

The point was whether or not Moses foretold the Messiah/Christ not
whether
or not Jewish faith accepted Jesus as the Messiah/Christ
The point was whether or not Deuteronnmy 18:15 was about the Messiah/
Christ.
Get your mind straight,jerk.

 

[Jeckyl]

> You are such a prentious little asshole...

Charming.

> The same way people are trained to explain the American
> Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel
> trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.
> You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about
> your PRIVATE OPINION.

So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the messiah ?

> You are not a good Historian either

You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of historial
evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he was
supposedly alive.

> Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or
> a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy
> 18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ

Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is beside the
point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old testament and
jewish scripture do not say that.

> Do you think that being historian mean reading the works
> by some Historians?
> Being historian means being able to investigate and find the cause
> and effect.

Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you would cite
the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.

> Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.

It certainly does not support yours.

> JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST

Shame that.

 

[Jeckyl]

>> None has been found
> None has been find yet

Yes .. nothing yet

> And who is looking for that evidence?

Historians, theologians, archeologists. The person who could find real
evidence of Jesus would be famous (and most likely end up very wealthy as a
result). They would LOVE to find such evidence .. they have a very great
interest in finding it.

 

[Jeckyl]

>> Its called doing research. You shoul try it sometime. There is credible
>> written contemporary evidence of John the Baptist (outside of the bible
> How do you decide this is credible and this is not?

There are standard for judging the creidbility of historical evidence.

> Just because something meets your fantazy does not make it credible

Right back at you hypocrite.

>> "2. Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army
>> came
>> from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against
>> John,
>> that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and
> Who did he baptized and for what purpose did he baptize

Don't you know? Maybe you should do some more research.

Regardless, that has nothing to do with that being an example of independent
evidence for John the Baptist being a real historical figure.

 

[Jeckyl]

> None of the Apostles contemporaries ever question Jesus existence.

That shows a lack of critical thinking on their part.

Of course, they didn't have the standard of historical evidence we have now,
nor the tools to research it. So one really can't blame them for accepting
what was told to them.

 

[codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Feb 15, 9:29 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 15, 8:42 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
this will help:
>
> > > Main Entry: ig

 

[Jeckyl]

>> > What rational explanation can you come up with?
>> He didn't exist.
> How do you insult someone who never existed.

Good question .. not sure how its relevant, but there you go.

> Read the Talmud in its pages where Jesus and his mother are
> mentioned.

Can you please quote the relevant passage(s)? I don't happen to have a
Talmud handy.

Bear in mind, of course, that the Talmud was written many years after jesus
supposedly lived and died. So its not contemporary with Jesus life.

> Anyway, he existed, but they had issue with his claim that
> he was the Messiah that Moses fortold.

> This the way of a sound scholarship.
> The way of malice is yours with baseless claim

My claims are not baseless .. they are based on a lack of historical
evidence.

If you really can provide some, then that's fine .. I REALLY look forward to
it.

> Yet the Jewish faith is expected Messiah/Christ based on Deuteronnmy
> 18:15, this what the point was

Yes.. and they are still waiting.

> The point was whether or not Moses foretold the Messiah/Christ

I would certainly agree that the old testament fortells a prophet / messiash
/ christ. I've not said it doesn't, and it is not the point I was
addressing.

> The point was whether or not Deuteronnmy 18:15 was about the Messiah/
> Christ. Get your mind straight,jerk.

This thread seems to be on the subject of whether Jesus is the Christ (hence
the title "No Jesus, No Christ").

Another charming person. Sad that you have to resort to name calling to
make your point..

 

[Sid9]

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:
> On Feb 15, 9:29 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Feb 15, 8:42 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
> this will help:
>>
>>>> Main Entry: ig

 

[Jeckyl]

> No Jesus, No Christ.

There could be a Christ who is yet to come. No Jesus doesn't mean No
Christ.

> Christ had to be born into the world according to the Jewish Scriptures.

That doesn't mean that event ahs yet happened.

> It has been proven behond doubt that Jesus is tha Christ/Messiah

Where is the proof the Jesus (assuming he existed) is the promised Christ /
Messiah.

If that evidence is so well proven beyond any doubt, then are you saying the
Jewish faith accept Jesus as their promised Messiash?

> therefore Jesus was born into the world and existed in truth.

Just because you use the word 'therefore' that does not imply a logical
concluion.

There is no evidence that Jesus actually existed, other than stories written
after the time of his supposed death.

There is ceratinly no evidence that events surrounding his birth and death
happened (indeed the bible lacks consistency there)

> Now tell the real Christ to get up If you don't believe this

Get up where?

 

[Douglas Berry]

On 15 Feb 2007 17:53:18 -0800 there was an Ancient
"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> who stoppeth
one in alt.atheism
>On Feb 14, 7:29 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> If you ar etalking about whetehr Darwin existed, there is plenty of
>> contemporary evidence about him from the time he lived. Including the books
>> he wrote.
>
>Did you ever meet Darwin in person? No
>Where you there when he was writing? No
>Anything you know about Darwin has been handed down
>to you from previous generations. You have no mean to confirm
>or infirm it.

Actually, we have his original writings, in his own hand.

>You just believe it because it is written, If you believe any garbage
>just because it is written down, why don't you believe
>that you are a ******* and you don't know your real father
>as mother were in business to change men over night.

I have evidence that my parents were married when I was born, and that
I am in fact their natural child.

>Now to come back to the case at hand. We trust
>those eye witness who were sent to teach in the name of
>Jesus the Savior, just the way you trust anything
>written down about Darwin.

Except they weren't eye witnesses. The earliest Gospel was written
over a decade after the fact hundreds of miles from Judea. It is as
if the first report of Darwin's voyage on the Beagle was written in
Bavaria in the mid-1880s based on third hand reports.

>Somwhere at some point, you need to trust somebody.
>We trust the Apostles just the way you trust Darwin propagandists

Of course, we can back up Darwin with laboratory results.
--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein

 

[Douglas Berry]

On 15 Feb 2007 18:29:00 -0800 there was an Ancient
"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> who stoppeth
one in alt.atheism

>> "2. Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came
>> from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John,
>> that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and
>
>Who did he baptized and for what purpose did he baptize

According to your Bible he batized pretty everyone he could cajole
into the river (except for Pharisees and Sadducees) and he did it
because the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. Matthew 3:2.

Don't you read the Bible? John was sure that the end times were here.
2000 years ago.

Guess he was wrong.
--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein

 

[codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Feb 15, 11:54 pm, Douglas Berry <penguin_...@mindOBVIOUSspring.com>
wrote:
> On 15 Feb 2007 17:53:18 -0800 there was an Ancient
> "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> who stoppeth
> one in alt.atheism
>
> >On Feb 14, 7:29 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> >> If you ar etalking about whetehr Darwin existed, there is plenty of
> >> contemporary evidence about him from the time he lived. Including the books
> >> he wrote.
>
> >Did you ever meet Darwin in person? No
> >Where you there when he was writing? No
> >Anything you know about Darwin has been handed down
> >to you from previous generations. You have no mean to confirm
> >or infirm it.
>
> Actually, we have his original writings, in his own hand.
>

How do you know it is his? Someone claimed it
How do you know it is ORIGINAL ? Someone told you so
You had no way to know
and this take us back to where we were. It take a trust
in someone no matter what to believe something. We all depends
on hearsay.
Don't get confused. Hearsay can be done in writing.
The claim that something is written down therefore it is not
a hearsay is bogus. Now If you can believe all that Hoopla
about Darwin, why do you demand a different standard for Jesus
and his trusted apostles?

 

[codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Feb 15, 10:23 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > Did you ever meet Darwin in person? No
> > Where you there when he was writing? No
>
> That doesn't matter .. its not required to be credibel historical evidence.


So why you keep claiming that since Luke never met Jesus therefore
His report is not reliable

 

[codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Feb 15, 7:15 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:


>
> Its called doing research. You shoul try it sometime. There is credible


"Searching when you know nothing is like trying to sort weed from
scratch when you don't even know what the scratch is made of."

 

[panamfloyd@hotmail.com]

On Feb 15, 11:01 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"
<Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
> On Feb 15, 9:29 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Feb 15, 8:42 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"
>
> > <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
> this will help:
>
> > > > Main Entry: ig

 

[panamfloyd@hotmail.com]

On Feb 15, 9:49 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"
<Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
> On Feb 15, 9:29 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 15, 8:42 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"
>
> > <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 15, 1:41 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 15, 8:39 am, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"
>
> > > > <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 14, 6:31 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Feb 14, 4:17 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"
>
> > > > > > <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Feb 14, 1:46 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Feb 13, 6:36 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"
>
> > > > > > > > <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

snip

> Fossils don't speak for themselves, people do with a hidden agenda

Your complete failure to present a counter-argument for any of my
points is noted. Is that the Christian way? To run away when the empty
threats don't scare anyone? I suppose it is, according to the
evidence:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Martian Commander
Plonked by Kadaitcha Man Sept 06
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain

Religious societies are less moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

 

[Libertarius]

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 15, 2:01 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
> wrote:
>
>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 14, 11:20 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>"codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote innews:1171458165.012872.319100@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>>>>On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>Try showing that site to an actual historian.
>>>>>>>See how hard you get laughed at.
>>
>>>>>>Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the
>>>>>>Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic
>>>>>>Jesus.
>>
>>>>>There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah
>>
>>>>There would be no Christians without the religion, which is a BELIEF in
>>>>Christ/Messiah myth.
>>
>>>>>And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ
>>>>>would be born, then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.
>>
>>>>Circular argument. See if you can find evidence of an historic Jesus
>>>>outside of the bible or the religion.
>>
>>>I don't think this is what evidence means. It is like asking
>>>If we can find a record of Darwin of evolution outside the
>>>Origin of the species by Darwin...
>>>Yours is indeed a circular reasoning.
>>
>>===>That is STUPID!
>>
>>We know Darwin WROTE that book, we have his PICTURES,
>>even pictures of his father and sister.
>
>
> YOU KNOW IT FROM WHO? NOT FROM DARWIN HIMSELF.
> You have his picture? How do you know If it is Darwin?
> Did you meet him in person before.
> You see again, somewhere you decide to trust someone who
> reported who Darwin was and wrote. We all depend
> on hearsay

===>What inane questions you hide behind!
Only an idiot would think there is any comparison between
evidence for Darwin and evidence for "Jesus". -- L.

 

[codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Feb 16, 1:52 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
wrote:
> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:
> > On Feb 15, 2:01 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>
> > wrote:
>
> >>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:
>
> >>>On Feb 14, 11:20 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>"codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote innews:1171458165.012872.319100@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>>>>On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
> >>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>Try showing that site to an actual historian.
> >>>>>>>See how hard you get laughed at.
>
> >>>>>>Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the
> >>>>>>Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic
> >>>>>>Jesus.
>
> >>>>>There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah
>
> >>>>There would be no Christians without the religion, which is a BELIEF in
> >>>>Christ/Messiah myth.
>
> >>>>>And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ
> >>>>>would be born, then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.
>
> >>>>Circular argument. See if you can find evidence of an historic Jesus
> >>>>outside of the bible or the religion.
>
> >>>I don't think this is what evidence means. It is like asking
> >>>If we can find a record of Darwin of evolution outside the
> >>>Origin of the species by Darwin...
> >>>Yours is indeed a circular reasoning.
>
> >>===>That is STUPID!
>
> >>We know Darwin WROTE that book, we have his PICTURES,
> >>even pictures of his father and sister.
>
> > YOU KNOW IT FROM WHO? NOT FROM DARWIN HIMSELF.
> > You have his picture? How do you know If it is Darwin?
> > Did you meet him in person before.
> > You see again, somewhere you decide to trust someone who
> > reported who Darwin was and wrote. We all depend
> > on hearsay
>
> ===>What inane questions you hide behind!
> Only an idiot would think there is any comparison between
> evidence for Darwin and evidence for "Jesus". -- L.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Of course there is no comparison at all
Christ was foretold, Darwin not
Christ resurrected, Darwin not
Christ ascended in heaven, Darwin not
Christ open the gate of after life, Darwin can't even help himself
Christ will come again to judge Darwin, Darwin won't judge nobody
The last word belong to Christ and not to Darwin