Re: Definition of God

[Immortalist]

Bob wrote:
> One of the ironies of the theist-atheist debate is that neither side
> can define what they mean by God. Theists claim they know God exists
> but when pressed to define what they mean, they lapse into religious
> jargon. Similarly atheists claim they know that God does not exist but
> they too are unable to define what they mean by this God that does not
> exist.
>
> No wonder such discussions always degernerate into shouting contests.
> Nobody knows what they are talking about.
>
> A proper definition includes a concrete rational description of the
> essential and necessary characteristic of the object in question.
>
> Can you define God in these terms?
>

God is a concept some humans use as a lever [crutch-lever?]. This
concept can be used to gain leverage up ahead in the future. A lever
that moves things in the future but is within "a respect for powers" in
the seen or unseen world. If evolutionary theory is correct, people
with particular religious instincts survived and the atheists died. A
lever that feeds the needs of a system, a system called culture.

A see saw is a lever familiar to everyone. A lever is a stiff rod or
plank that rotates around a fixed point, or fulcrum. Downward motion at
one end results in upward motion at the other end. Depending on where
the fulcrum is located, a_lever_can_multiply either the force applied,
or the distance over which the force is applied...

-------------------------------------

Across the globe and throughout history, human beings have engaged in a
variety of religious practices and have held a diversity of religious
beliefs. These phenomena have been explained in a variety of different
ways by anthropologists, psychologists, and other scholars, as well as
by religious practitioners themselves, with varying degrees of success.
Perhaps more puzzling, and just in need of an explanation, is the fact
that human beings have religion in the first place.

....Religion is a by-product of the way our minds evolved to negotiate
the natural and, more importantly, the social world. Evolutionary
Psychology's naturalistic and cognitivist approach is at variance with
many established traditions in the study of the religion and his
approach may seem wrong-headed to many...

http://www.semcoop.com/detail/0465006965

The explanation for religious beliefs and behaviours is to be found in
the way all human minds work. I really mean all human minds, not just
the minds of religious people or of some of them. I am talking about
humanminds because what matters here are prop-erties of minds that are
found in all members of our species with normal brains. The discoveries
I will mention here are about the ways minds in general (men

 

[jtem01@gmail.com]

Immortalist wrote:

> God is a concept some humans use as a lever
> [crutch-lever?].

Okay. But with some 6 billion people on the planet,
this isn't exactly going out on a limb.

I mean, try to imagine if some aliens visited the
Earth from another planet, and not knowing a lot
about us they asked me about sex, what it is we
do. At this point I tell the aliens that some people
are masochistic, that they get a sexual thrill out
of having pain inflicted on them.

I'd be leaving them with a pretty misleading view
of human sexuality, would I not?

> If evolutionary theory is correct, people with
> particular religious instincts survived and the
> atheists died.

There is absolutely no reason to believe this.

None.

How are you arriving at this claim?

 

[Nosterill]

Immortalist wrote:

> God is a concept some humans use as a lever [crutch-lever?].

Curious comment! I had always understood a crutch-lever to be a device
utilised for the forcible removal of a chastity belt.

 

[riplin@Azonic.co.nz]

jtem01@gmail.com wrote:

> > If evolutionary theory is correct, people with
> > particular religious instincts survived and the
> > atheists died.
>
> There is absolutely no reason to believe this.
>
> None.
>
> How are you arriving at this claim?

It may be that you see no reason, or want there not to be one. That
does not mean that there is not one.

For example people living in a group or tribe that does not fight
amongst themselves are more likely to survive and raise more children
than individualists who don't have the support and protection of a
tribe.

This may be augmented by the tribes killing off anyone around that
won't become part of their tribe. Even in recent times religions have
tried to eliminate anyone who is not of their faith. See: the Middle
East.

Tribes probably operate best when there is a strong or chasimatic
leader that has absolute authority. Religious affiliation is much like
other affiliations such as patriotism, loyalty and family. These
combine to produce an advantage in terms of survival and breeding rates
such that they increasingly represent a larger part of the population.

Nowadays it is illegal in most places to just go out and kill people
because they don't agree with you. Not that it always stops them.

 

[Bob]

On 21 Aug 2006 19:41:57 -0700, "Immortalist"
<reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Can you define God in these terms?

>God is a concept some humans use as a lever [crutch-lever?].

That's epistemological, not ontological.

The Idealist world of the human mind is not subject to the same
constraints that the real objective world is. For example, you can put
your hand on a hot stove burner in your mind and it won't get burned.
Try that in the real objective world. You can also conceive of
contradictory entities in the subjective world - consult "Fuzzy
Thinking" by Bart Kosco. But the real objective world does not permit
contradictions to exist simultaneously. Finally there is no need for
causality in the subjective world of the mind. You can conceive of
anything you want without having to declare its source. However you
can't get by with that in the real objective ontological world. If
causality were not a requirement then there would be no order.


--

Rope, Tree, Journalist - some assembly required.

 

[Bob]

On 21 Aug 2006 23:12:58 -0700, jtem01@gmail.com wrote:

>>people with
>> particular religious instincts survived and the
>> atheists died.

>There is absolutely no reason to believe this.
>None.
>How are you arriving at this claim?

Alexis deToqueville claimed that no major civilization has ever
survived the loss of religion.

"The solution to the basic problem of contemporary society is for
every human being to acknowledge dependence on a Supreme Being."
--Aldous Huxley


--

Rope, Tree, Journalist - some assembly required.

 

[Paul Holbach]

> Immortalist schrieb:

> God is a concept ...

No, God is an object (an existent or nonexistent one), and "God" is a
name.
What is a concept is "god".

We characterize objects and define concepts:

-- "God is characterized as ..."

-- "'god' is defined as ..."

#PH

 

[wcb]

Bob wrote:

> On 21 Aug 2006 23:12:58 -0700, jtem01@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>people with
>>> particular religious instincts survived and the
>>> atheists died.
>
>>There is absolutely no reason to believe this.
>>None.
>>How are you arriving at this claim?
>
> Alexis deToqueville claimed that no major civilization has ever
> survived the loss of religion.

Well, any number of European nations get by with very
little religion.


--

His disciples said, "When will you become revealed
to us and when shall we see you?"
Jesus said, "When you disrobe without being ashamed
and take up your garments and place them under your
feet like little children and tread on them, then will you
see the son of the living one, and you will not be afraid"
- Gospel of Thomas.

Cheerful Charlie

 

[Bob]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:55:41 -0500, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:

>> Alexis deToqueville claimed that no major civilization has ever
>> survived the loss of religion.

>Well, any number of European nations get by with very
>little religion.

That is not true. Most European nations are very religious.

But so what? It takes a long time for a nation to disappear.

It is possible that the reason behind deToqueville's observation is
simple, namely, that religion provides the structure that binds people
together, and therefore they do not scatter culturally. The Jews are a
good example - they are culturally similar even after 2000 years of
separation.

Once the dominant religion goes away, people factionalize into smaller
groups which causes them to lose their common heritage. That leads to
the destruction of their culture.


--

Rope, Tree, Journalist - some assembly required.

 

[Bob]

On 22 Aug 2006 06:18:47 -0700, "Paul Holbach"
<paulholbachDELETETHENAME@freenet.de> wrote:

>> Immortalist schrieb:
>
>> God is a concept ...
>
>No, God is an object (an existent or nonexistent one), and "God" is a
>name.
>What is a concept is "god".
>
>We characterize objects and define concepts:
>
>-- "God is characterized as ..."
>
>-- "'god' is defined as ..."

God is the Being whose essence is existence, which means God is
immutable and is therefore the source of existence for all that can
and does exist. God is the energy needed for the Universe to exist.




--

Rope, Tree, Journalist - some assembly required.

 

[JTEM]

riplin@Azonic.co.nz wrote:


> jtem01@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > If evolutionary theory is correct, people with
> > > particular religious instincts survived and the
> > > atheists died.
> >
> > There is absolutely no reason to believe this.
> >
> > None.
> >
> > How are you arriving at this claim?
>
> It may be that you see no reason, or want there not
> to be one. That does not mean that there is not one.

Nope. I have no emotional investment in any particular
answer, except that it be accurate.

> For example people living in a group or tribe that
> does not fight amongst themselves are more likely
> to survive and raise more children than individualists
> who don't have the support and protection of a tribe.

Okay, now this has jack to do with the subject....

> This may be augmented by the tribes killing off
> anyone around that won't become part of their tribe.

If MAY BE? Well, is it or isn't it?

> Tribes probably operate best when there is a strong
> or chasimatic leader that has absolute authority.

You mean someone who doesn't need anything like
religion to control people?

> Religious affiliation is much like other affiliations
> such as patriotism, loyalty and family.

So religion would have been extremely useful to any
early tribe that did not have a strong or charismatic
leader, family relations or patriotism.

> These combine to produce an advantage in terms
> of survival and breeding rates such that they
> increasingly represent a larger part of the population.

You're rationalizing.

Let's take your same "evolution" argument and
widen the context somewhat. Humans & chimps
share a common ancestor. The "Common Chimp"
displays the violent behavior you describe -- literally
searching for outsiders to kill. The Bonobo chimps,
on the other hand, are fairly passive.

Neither has religion.

Nature, "Evolution," demonstrates the exact results
you describe in the absence of religion. Religion does
not explain the behavior, and can't explain it.

 

[JTEM]

Bob wrote:

> Alexis deToqueville claimed that no major
> civilization has ever survived the loss of
> religion.

And here I thought it was people who had
(or did not have) religion, and not concepts.

Silly me.

 

[JTEM]

Bob wrote:

> God is the Being whose essence is existence,
> which means God is immutable and is therefore
> the source of existence for all that can and
> does exist. God is the energy needed for the
> Universe to exist.

Your last name must be "Marley," judging from
the weed you're smoking...

 

[wcb]

Bob wrote:

>
> That is not true. Most European nations are very religious.
>
> But so what? It takes a long time for a nation to disappear.
>
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html
Most are NOT very religious and the one's that are,
are often the worst off nations.

Albania et al.

Europe

Norris and Inglehart (2004) found that 39% of those in Britain do not
believe in God. According to a 2004 survey commissioned by the BBC, 44% of
the British do not believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 31% of the
British do not believe in God, although only 10% self-identify as
?atheist.? According to Bruce (2002), 10% of the British self-identify as
an ?agnostic person? and 8% as a ?convinced atheist,? with an additional
21% choosing ?not a religious person.? According to Froese (2001), 32% of
the British are atheist or agnostic. According to Gallup and Lindsay
(1999:121), 39% of the British do not believe in God or a ?Higher Power.?



According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 44% of those in France do not
believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 48% of the French do not
believe in God, although only 19% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to
Froese (2001), 54% of the French are atheist or agnostic. According to
Davie (1999), 43% of the French do not believe in God.



According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 64% of those in Sweden do not
believe in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 74% of Swedes said that they
did not believe in ?a personal God.? According to Greeley (2003), 46% of
Swedes do not believe in God, although only 17% self-identify as ?atheist.?
According to Froese (2001), 69% of Swedes are either atheist or agnostic.
According to Gustafsoon and Pettersson (2000), 82% of Swedes do not believe
in a ?personal God.? According to Davie (1999), 85% of Swedes do not
believe in God.



According to Norris and Inglehart (2004) 48% of those in Denmark do not
believe in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 49% of Danes do not believe
in ?a personal God.? According to Greeley (2003), 43% of Danes do not
believe in God, although only 15% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to
Froese (2001), 45% of Danes are either atheist or agnostic. According to
Gustafsson and Pettersson (2000), 80% of Danes do not believe in a
?personal God.?



According to Inglehart et al (2004), 31% of those in Norway do not believe
in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 54% of Norwegians said that they did
not believe in ?a personal God.? According to Greeley (2003), 41% of
Norwegians do not believe in God, although only 10% self-identify as
?atheist.? According to Gustafsson and Pettersson (2002), 72% of Norwegians
do not believe in a ?personal God.? According to Froese (2001), 45% of
Norwegians are either atheist or agnostic.



Norris and Inglehart (2004) found that 28% of those in Finland do not
believe in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 33% of Finns do not believe
in ?a personal God.? According to Gustafsson and Pettersson (2002), 60% of
Finns do not believe in a ?personal God.? According to Froese (2001), 41%
of Finns are either atheist or agnostic.



According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 42% of those in the Netherlands do
not believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 43% of the Dutch do not
believe in God, although only 17% self-identify as ?atheist.? Houtman and
Mascini (2002) found that 39% of the Dutch are either agnostic or atheist.
According to Froese (2001), 44% of the Dutch are either atheist or
agnostic.



Norris and Inglehart (2004) found that 31% of West Germans do not believe in
God. According to Greeley (2003), 35% of West Germans do not believe in
God, but only 11% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to Froese (2001),
35% of West Germans are either atheist or agnostic. According to Greeley
(2003), 75% of East Germans do not believe in God, with 51%
self-identifying as ?atheist.? According to Pollack (2002), 74% of East
Germans and 38% of West Germans do not believe in God. According to Shand
(1998), 42% of West Germans and 72% of East Germans are either atheist or
agnostic.



According to Inglehart et al (2004), 17% of those in Switzerland do not
believe in God, and Greeley (2003) found that 27% of the Swiss do not
believe in God, but only 4% self-identify as atheist.



Inglehart et al (2004) found that 15% of those in Spain do not believe in
God, and according to Greeley (2003), 18% of Spaniards do not believe in
God, but only 9% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to Froese (2001),
24% of Spaniards are either atheist or agnostic.



According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 18% of those in Austria do not
believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 20% of Austrians do not
believe in God, but only 6% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to Froese
(2001), 26% of Austrians are either atheist or agnostic.



Ingelhart et al (2004) found that 6% of those in Italy do not believe in
God. According to Greeley (2003), 14% of Italians do not believe in God,
but only 4% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to Froese (2001), 15% of
Italians are either atheist or agnostic. According to Davis and Robinson
(1999), 23% of Italians disagreed (some strongly) that a God exists who
concerns himself with every human being personally.



According to Greeley (2003), 5% of those in Ireland do not believe in God,
but only 2% accept the self-identification of ?atheist.? According to
Ingelhart et al (2004) and Davie (1999), 4% of the Irish do not believe in
God.



Inglehart et al (2004) found that 4% of those in Portugal do not believe in
God. According to Greeley (2003), 9% of those in Portugal do not believe in
God, with only 2% self-identifying as ?atheist.?



According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 43% of those in Belgium do not
believe in God. According to Froese (2001), 42% of Belgians are either
atheist or agnostic.



According Inglehart et al (2004), 8% of those in Albania do not believe in
God. According to O?Brien and Palmer (1993), over 50% of Albanians claim
?no religious alliance.?



According to Inglehart et al (2004), 34% of those in Bulgaria do not believe
in God. According to Greeley (2003), 40% of those in Bulgaria do not
believe in God, but only 17% self-identify as ?atheist.?



According to Inglehart et al (2004), 61% of those in the Czech republic do
not believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 54% of those in the Czech
Republic do not believe in God, although only 20% self-identify as
?atheist.? According to a 1999 Gallup International Poll, over 55% of
Czechs chose ?none? as their religion.



According to Inglehart et al (2004), 17% of those in Slovakia do not believe
in God. According to Greeley (2003), 28% of those in Slovakia do not
believe in God, but only 11% self-identify as ?atheist.? According to Gall
(1998), 10% of Slovaks are atheist.



According to Inglehart et al (2004), 7% of those in Croatia do not believe
in God. According to a 1999 Gallup International Poll, 5.5% of those in
Croatia and 6.4% of those in Bosnia chose ?none? as their religion.



According to Ingelhart et al (2004), 35% of those in Slovenia do not believe
in God. According to Greeley (2003), 38% of those in Slovenia do not
believe in God, but only 17% self-identify as ?atheist.?



According to Inglehart et al (2004), 32% of those in Hungary do not believe
in God. According to Greeley (2003), 35% of Hungarians do not believe in
God, a decrease in non-belief from 1981, when 45% reported that they didn?t
believe in God. According to Froese (2001), 46% of Hungarians are either
atheist or agnostic.



According to Inglehart et al (2004), 3% of those in Poland do not believe in
God. According to Greeley (2003), 6% of Poles do not believe in God, but
only 2% self-identifies as an ?atheist.?



According to Inglehart et al (2004), 16% of those in Iceland do not believe
in God. According to Froese (2001), 23% of those in Iceland are either
atheist or agnostic.



According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 16% of those in Greece do not
believe in God. According to Greeley (2003), 4% of those in Cyprus do not
believe in God, although only 1% choose to identify as ?atheist.? According
to Inglehart et al (2004) and the 1999 Gallup International Poll, less than
1-2% of those in Turkey are nonreligious.



According to Inglehart et al (2004), 4% of Romanians do not believe in God.

--

His disciples said, "When will you become revealed
to us and when shall we see you?"
Jesus said, "When you disrobe without being ashamed
and take up your garments and place them under your
feet like little children and tread on them, then will you
see the son of the living one, and you will not be afraid"
- Gospel of Thomas.

Cheerful Charlie

 

[kellyjaz]

God is the creator of everything.

 

[Nosterill]

Bob wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:55:41 -0500, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Alexis deToqueville claimed that no major civilization has ever
> >> survived the loss of religion.
>
> >Well, any number of European nations get by with very
> >little religion.
>
> That is not true. Most European nations are very religious.

Really? I didn't think that even the Vatican City could match bible
belt America for religious fervour: But I'm just a backward European,
so what do I know.

 

[thepossibilities]

Immortalist wrote:
> Bob wrote:
> > One of the ironies of the theist-atheist debate is that neither side
> > can define what they mean by God. Theists claim they know God exists
> > but when pressed to define what they mean, they lapse into religious
> > jargon. Similarly atheists claim they know that God does not exist but
> > they too are unable to define what they mean by this God that does not
> > exist.
> >
> > No wonder such discussions always degernerate into shouting contests.
> > Nobody knows what they are talking about.
> >
> > A proper definition includes a concrete rational description of the
> > essential and necessary characteristic of the object in question.
> >
> > Can you define God in these terms?
> >

I believe "God" to be different to many different people. I will admit
that I am a Christian, largely due to the fact that I don't want to
believe we are born on this earth live out our life and then cease to
exist. I have also seen some seriously strange behavior from someone I
would consider to be demon possed, you might laugh but it's true.
There is evil out there and you can't have it without good. I went
camping with some friends and neighbors when I was about 9 or 10. One
guy named Jeff (foster kid) was a Satan worshiper and read the Satanic
bible. One lady named Linda was just getting into Church and God. We
all walked (about 8 of us) behind my parents property (in the country)
back into the woods heading back to a lean-to that the foster kids
including Jeff had built. For some reason Jeff wanted Linda to go and
was insistent that she went, read on to find out why I was extremely
happy to have her along. It was at dusk and as we walked back Jeff
dissappeared and we begun to here howling which did not sound natural.
We started back to find him and he jumped out of the trees and onto the
road foaming at the mouth and he bit Chris in the chest. We all went
back to the camp site rather freaked out. We decided to send Chris and
Jake down to there house so they could get Ron and Carol, Jeff's foster
parents. In the mean time Jeff was chasing after Chris and Jake and
crossed a field in a matter of seconds and appeared to be floating
somehow. For whatever reason he stopped short of them and turned
around and came back to our camp site. He was floating in a zig zag
and was hissing as he talked. He came up to Linda and started spouting
off evil stuff about Satan having the power and going to take over the
world, Linda was rebuking him and telling him to leave. He left and
dissapeared into the woods. Ron and Darrel (Ron and Carol's son) came
driving back in their pickup to see what was going on. We all started
walking back deciding it wasn't a good idea to camp that night. We
meet up with Ron and Darrel as they were calling for Jeff and he came
back and kept going on about the power a ring he was wearing had.
Later I found out from Carol that Jeff was cold as ice and he ended up
being taken away that night to Phsyciatric Hospital. Never heard
anymore and how Jeff ended up but I can tell you there was something
unnatural about him and from that day on I decided there is for sure
good and evil in this world. Mom had been dragging me to church up to
that point and afterward I went willingly. I would rather invite good
into my heart than hatred or believe there is nothing to this
world/universe bigger than aliens, humans, animals, insects, plants and
such.

just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.

Brian

 

[Paul Holbach]

> Bob schrieb:

> God is the Being whose essence is existence.

God is characterized by the theists as the being whose essence is
existence.
But there is absolutely nothing self-contradictory in claiming that the
being whose essence is existence does not exist.

#PH

 

[droth]

thepossibilities wrote:
> Immortalist wrote:
>> Bob wrote:
>>> One of the ironies of the theist-atheist debate is that neither side
>>> can define what they mean by God. Theists claim they know God exists
>>> but when pressed to define what they mean, they lapse into religious
>>> jargon. Similarly atheists claim they know that God does not exist but
>>> they too are unable to define what they mean by this God that does not
>>> exist.
>>>
>>> No wonder such discussions always degernerate into shouting contests.
>>> Nobody knows what they are talking about.
>>>
>>> A proper definition includes a concrete rational description of the
>>> essential and necessary characteristic of the object in question.
>>>
>>> Can you define God in these terms?
>>>
>
> I believe "God" to be different to many different people. I will admit
> that I am a Christian, largely due to the fact that I don't want to
> believe we are born on this earth live out our life and then cease to
> exist.

That's a neat trick, I personally can't simply choose to believe
something because I don't like the opposite to be true.

I have also seen some seriously strange behavior from someone I
> would consider to be demon possed, you might laugh but it's true.

Hahaha

> There is evil out there and you can't have it without good. I went
> camping with some friends and neighbors when I was about 9 or 10. One
> guy named Jeff (foster kid) was a Satan worshiper and read the Satanic
> bible. One lady named Linda was just getting into Church and God. We
> all walked (about 8 of us) behind my parents property (in the country)
> back into the woods heading back to a lean-to that the foster kids
> including Jeff had built. For some reason Jeff wanted Linda to go and
> was insistent that she went, read on to find out why I was extremely
> happy to have her along. It was at dusk and as we walked back Jeff
> dissappeared and we begun to here howling which did not sound natural.
> We started back to find him and he jumped out of the trees and onto the
> road foaming at the mouth and he bit Chris in the chest. We all went
> back to the camp site rather freaked out. We decided to send Chris and
> Jake down to there house so they could get Ron and Carol, Jeff's foster
> parents. In the mean time Jeff was chasing after Chris and Jake and
> crossed a field in a matter of seconds and appeared to be floating
> somehow. For whatever reason he stopped short of them and turned
> around and came back to our camp site. He was floating in a zig zag
> and was hissing as he talked. He came up to Linda and started spouting
> off evil stuff about Satan having the power and going to take over the
> world, Linda was rebuking him and telling him to leave. He left and
> dissapeared into the woods. Ron and Darrel (Ron and Carol's son) came
> driving back in their pickup to see what was going on. We all started
> walking back deciding it wasn't a good idea to camp that night. We
> meet up with Ron and Darrel as they were calling for Jeff and he came
> back and kept going on about the power a ring he was wearing had.
> Later I found out from Carol that Jeff was cold as ice and he ended up
> being taken away that night to Phsyciatric Hospital. Never heard
> anymore and how Jeff ended up but I can tell you there was something
> unnatural about him and from that day on I decided there is for sure
> good and evil in this world. Mom had been dragging me to church up to
> that point and afterward I went willingly. I would rather invite good
> into my heart than hatred or believe there is nothing to this
> world/universe bigger than aliens, humans, animals, insects, plants and
> such.
>
> just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.

hahaha
---oops---
Really, though, if you believe you actually witnessed that and believe
you have an accurate impression of its meaning, why is your believe in
Christianity "largely due to the fact that [you] don't want to believe
we are born on this earth [to/,] live out our life and then cease to
exist."???

I mean, you think you saw some guy floating, using the power of Satan,
biting people's chests, and whatnot. From your point of view, wouldn't
it be pretty clear cut that God exists, after witnessing that,
regardless of what you wanted to believe?

 

[Steve O]

> I believe "God" to be different to many different people. I will admit
> that I am a Christian, largely due to the fact that I don't want to
> believe we are born on this earth live out our life and then cease to
> exist.

That seems like a completely irrational thing to say.
Just because you hope that death isn't permanent doesn't make it any
different.
What's the point in forcing yourself to believe in something, as you appear
to , simply because the alternative is unthinkable?
How do you actually manage to do that?
Most of us are incapable of such double think.



>I have also seen some seriously strange behavior from someone I
> would consider to be demon possed, you might laugh but it's true.

There's nothing funny about mental health problems or delusions - I can
assure you I'm not laughing- but what makes you think that a medical
condition has anything to do with "demons"?
I have seen some seriously strange behavior (and criminal behaviour) from
other people too- but I didn't automatically conlude that demons were
involed, so why should you?


> There is evil out there and you can't have it without good. I went
> camping with some friends and neighbors when I was about 9 or 10. One
> guy named Jeff (foster kid) was a Satan worshiper and read the Satanic
> bible. One lady named Linda was just getting into Church and God. We
> all walked (about 8 of us) behind my parents property (in the country)
> back into the woods heading back to a lean-to that the foster kids
> including Jeff had built. For some reason Jeff wanted Linda to go and
> was insistent that she went, read on to find out why I was extremely
> happy to have her along. It was at dusk and as we walked back Jeff
> dissappeared and we begun to here howling which did not sound natural.
> We started back to find him and he jumped out of the trees and onto the
> road foaming at the mouth and he bit Chris in the chest. We all went
> back to the camp site rather freaked out. We decided to send Chris and
> Jake down to there house so they could get Ron and Carol, Jeff's foster
> parents. In the mean time Jeff was chasing after Chris and Jake and
> crossed a field in a matter of seconds and appeared to be floating
> somehow. For whatever reason he stopped short of them and turned
> around and came back to our camp site. He was floating in a zig zag
> and was hissing as he talked. He came up to Linda and started spouting
> off evil stuff about Satan having the power and going to take over the
> world, Linda was rebuking him and telling him to leave. He left and
> dissapeared into the woods. Ron and Darrel (Ron and Carol's son) came
> driving back in their pickup to see what was going on. We all started
> walking back deciding it wasn't a good idea to camp that night. We
> meet up with Ron and Darrel as they were calling for Jeff and he came
> back and kept going on about the power a ring he was wearing had.
> Later I found out from Carol that Jeff was cold as ice and he ended up
> being taken away that night to Phsyciatric Hospital. Never heard
> anymore and how Jeff ended up but I can tell you there was something
> unnatural about him and from that day on I decided there is for sure
> good and evil in this world. Mom had been dragging me to church up to
> that point and afterward I went willingly. I would rather invite good
> into my heart than hatred or believe there is nothing to this
> world/universe bigger than aliens, humans, animals, insects, plants and
> such.
>
> just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.
>
> Brian

Interesting story.
But I'd be interested in knowing what kind of mushrooms they had on that
site.


--
Steve O
a.a. #2240
"Apparently, as I understand it , I am supposed to repent for being the way
that God made me, and then God will save me from God's wrath?"


>