Religious Martyrs

G

Ghamph

Guest
If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
sadistic freak.

Religious Martyrs

David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard
reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica
and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page
[http://gem-werc.org/gd/gd16.pdf] estimating the number of martyrs since the
origin of each religion:
+ Muslim martyrs: 80M
+ Christian martyrs: 70M
# 20th Century: 45.4M
# At the hands of...
Atheists: 31,689,000
Muslims 9,121,000
Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
Christians: 5,538,000
Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
Hindus: 676,000
Zoroastrians: 384,000
+ Hindu martyrs: 20M
+ Buddhist martyrs: 10M
+ Jewish: 9M
+ Ethnoreligious: 6M
+ Sikh: 2M
+ Baha'i: 1M
+ Other religious martyrs: 5M
o The book defines martyrs as
1. Believers in Christ (U.O.N.)
2. Who have lost their lives
3. Prematurely
4. In situations of witness
5. As a result of human hostility.
o World Christian Trends by Barrett et al: Apparently this book
gives more details about martyrdom statistics, but so far, I haven't found
it in a library (even our local seminary), and I can't afford to buy it
myself. (But see http://gem-werc.org/gd/listings.pdf) Here are some of the
major episodes that I've been able to scrounge from websites and articles.
Some of my sources have been somewhat ambiguous in their wording, so I
honestly don't know whether they mean to say that the Amerindians and
Baghdadians, for example, are meant as Christian martyrs or Muslim or
Shamanist, or whether the various subclasses who died at Soviet or Nazi
hands are already included in the largest number or meant to be added to it.
+ Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
# 1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
# 1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
# Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs
(1929-37)
# Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
+ By Mongols
# 1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M
martyrs
# 1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
# 1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
# 1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong
Nestorians: 4M martyrs
+ Conquistadors kill 15 million Amerindians: 2M martyrs
(1560)
+ Christians executed by Nazis in death camps: 1M
# Nazis exterminate 0.5M Gypsies
+ Khmer Rouge slaughter 2M (1975)
+ Kurds massacre 20,000 Nestorians (1843)
+ Massacre of 40,000 Vietnamese Catholics (1970)
The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
o 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.
o citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
+ ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural
Revolution.
+ ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total
k.)
+ Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to
their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)
The Ottawa Citizen (6 Feb. 1993)
o Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It
+ 40M Christians martyred throughout history.
+ ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists
+ ca. 8M k. by other Christians
 
On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:

> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> sadistic freak.


Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
you were discussing sadism and cruety...

>
> Religious Martyrs
>
> David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
> o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard
> reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica
> and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page
> [http://gem-werc.org/gd/gd16.pdf] estimating the number of martyrs since the
> origin of each religion:
> + Muslim martyrs: 80M
> + Christian martyrs: 70M
> # 20th Century: 45.4M
> # At the hands of...
> Atheists: 31,689,000
> Muslims 9,121,000
> Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
> Christians: 5,538,000
> Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
> Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
> Hindus: 676,000
> Zoroastrians: 384,000
> + Hindu martyrs: 20M
> + Buddhist martyrs: 10M
> + Jewish: 9M
> + Ethnoreligious: 6M
> + Sikh: 2M
> + Baha'i: 1M
> + Other religious martyrs: 5M
> o The book defines martyrs as
> 1. Believers in Christ (U.O.N.)
> 2. Who have lost their lives
> 3. Prematurely
> 4. In situations of witness
> 5. As a result of human hostility.
> o World Christian Trends by Barrett et al: Apparently this book
> gives more details about martyrdom statistics, but so far, I haven't found
> it in a library (even our local seminary), and I can't afford to buy it
> myself. (But see http://gem-werc.org/gd/listings.pdf) Here are some of the
> major episodes that I've been able to scrounge from websites and articles.
> Some of my sources have been somewhat ambiguous in their wording, so I
> honestly don't know whether they mean to say that the Amerindians and
> Baghdadians, for example, are meant as Christian martyrs or Muslim or
> Shamanist, or whether the various subclasses who died at Soviet or Nazi
> hands are already included in the largest number or meant to be added to it.
> + Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
> # 1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
> # 1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
> # Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs
> (1929-37)
> # Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
> + By Mongols
> # 1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M
> martyrs
> # 1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
> # 1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
> # 1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong
> Nestorians: 4M martyrs
> + Conquistadors kill 15 million Amerindians: 2M martyrs
> (1560)
> + Christians executed by Nazis in death camps: 1M
> # Nazis exterminate 0.5M Gypsies
> + Khmer Rouge slaughter 2M (1975)
> + Kurds massacre 20,000 Nestorians (1843)
> + Massacre of 40,000 Vietnamese Catholics (1970)
> The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
> o 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.
> o citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
> + ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural
> Revolution.
> + ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total
> k.)
> + Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to
> their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)
> The Ottawa Citizen (6 Feb. 1993)
> o Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It
> + 40M Christians martyred throughout history.
> + ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists
> + ca. 8M k. by other Christians
 
"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>
> > If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> > sadistic freak.

>
> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>

Your all powerful God permited it.
 
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:

>If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>sadistic freak.


No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
If we're going to follow Him or reject Him. Those who reject Him
clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Statistics
In 2003 alone, in the United States alone, 854,000 babies were
murdered by those who reject God. Extend this world-wide, and you
have millions of babies murdered every year.

Why do they do this? Here are the most popular reasons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortions
- Don't want the baby right now. So they murder him.
- Don't think we can afford her. So they murder her.
- Their relationship's not going well, so they murder him.
- It will interfere with their education or job, so they murder
her.
- They don't want another baby. So they murder him.

People who follow God would avoid abortions except in perhaps
life-threatening situations. Those who reject God murder and
continue to murder innocent babies by the millions every single
year.

It's human beings that are cold hearted. We can choose to repent
from being murderers, adulterers, fornicators, liars and thieves
and whatever else, and turn to God to save us from our
wickedness, or we can continue on being just as desperately
wicked murderers of innocent babies, adulterers, fornicators,
liars and thieves and pay the wages for our sins.

If God were vengeful, He would reject all of us even though we
repent and beg for His mercy. He doesn't reject us.

2 Peter 3:9 KJVR The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not
willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
repentance.

He takes any of us who truly repent and ask for forgiveness and
mercy. Praise God!
 
On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:

>
> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>
>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>> sadistic freak.

>>
>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>

> Your all powerful God permited it.


And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
what people do.
 
"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>
> >
> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>
> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >>> sadistic freak.
> >>
> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >>

> > Your all powerful God permited it.

>
> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
> what people do.
>


Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
 
On 2007-11-23 22:04:20 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:

>
> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>
>>>
>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>>>> sadistic freak.
>>>>
>>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>>>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>>>
>>> Your all powerful God permited it.

>>
>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
>> what people do.
>>

>
> Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.


No - that doesn't follow at all, because I did not demur from your
assertion that God permitted it. You really have no grasp of logic or
reason at all, have you? Are you really saying people are omnipotent,
by the way?
 
"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2007112323373075249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2007-11-23 22:04:20 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>
> >
> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> > news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold

hearted
> >>>>> sadistic freak.
> >>>>
> >>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> >>>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >>>>
> >>> Your all powerful God permited it.
> >>
> >> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
> >> what people do.
> >>

> >
> > Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.

>
> No - that doesn't follow at all, because I did not demur from your
> assertion that God permitted it. You really have no grasp of logic or
> reason at all, have you? Are you really saying people are omnipotent,
> by the way?
>


All powerfull, means that (all). No boundries. Able to change (stop-start)
all.
 
"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>
>>
>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>
>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>>> sadistic freak.
>>>
>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>>

>> Your all powerful God permited it.

>
> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for what
> people do.


A protector who refuses to protect is no protector.
 
In article <13ke1qu5be88b6c@corp.supernews.com>, ghamph@localnet.com says...
>
>If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, <Blaspheme Snipped>


"Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your
time is always ready." [Jn 7:6]

--
Scripture references are quoted from The holy Bible, King James version
Prepared for the University of Virginia Library Electronic Text Center
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/relig.browse.html
 
Ghamph wrote:

> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> sadistic freak.


Frankly what you list here [by the way you were two humans too many!] are
normal behavioral results of human activity.

We must remember that we lived as savages for over two million year largely
without any change of life style, left to fend for ourselves, no laws, nothing
but brute force, no wonder we still keep on killing each other, it is
instinctive.

Problem is for the first time we now have the weapons that can destroy the
whole of humanity.

I wonder if we will manage it?

If we do the chances are it will be in the name of some god or other, the
Christian one, or the other imaginary deity....... Allah.

>
>
> Religious Martyrs
>
> David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
> o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard
> reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica
> and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page
> [http://gem-werc.org/gd/gd16.pdf] estimating the number of martyrs since the
> origin of each religion:
> + Muslim martyrs: 80M
> + Christian martyrs: 70M
> # 20th Century: 45.4M
> # At the hands of...
> Atheists: 31,689,000
> Muslims 9,121,000
> Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
> Christians: 5,538,000
> Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
> Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
> Hindus: 676,000
> Zoroastrians: 384,000
> + Hindu martyrs: 20M
> + Buddhist martyrs: 10M
> + Jewish: 9M
> + Ethnoreligious: 6M
> + Sikh: 2M
> + Baha'i: 1M
> + Other religious martyrs: 5M
> o The book defines martyrs as
> 1. Believers in Christ (U.O.N.)
> 2. Who have lost their lives
> 3. Prematurely
> 4. In situations of witness
> 5. As a result of human hostility.
> o World Christian Trends by Barrett et al: Apparently this book
> gives more details about martyrdom statistics, but so far, I haven't found
> it in a library (even our local seminary), and I can't afford to buy it
> myself. (But see http://gem-werc.org/gd/listings.pdf) Here are some of the
> major episodes that I've been able to scrounge from websites and articles.
> Some of my sources have been somewhat ambiguous in their wording, so I
> honestly don't know whether they mean to say that the Amerindians and
> Baghdadians, for example, are meant as Christian martyrs or Muslim or
> Shamanist, or whether the various subclasses who died at Soviet or Nazi
> hands are already included in the largest number or meant to be added to it.
> + Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
> # 1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
> # 1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
> # Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs
> (1929-37)
> # Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
> + By Mongols
> # 1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M
> martyrs
> # 1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
> # 1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
> # 1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong
> Nestorians: 4M martyrs
> + Conquistadors kill 15 million Amerindians: 2M martyrs
> (1560)
> + Christians executed by Nazis in death camps: 1M
> # Nazis exterminate 0.5M Gypsies
> + Khmer Rouge slaughter 2M (1975)
> + Kurds massacre 20,000 Nestorians (1843)
> + Massacre of 40,000 Vietnamese Catholics (1970)
> The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
> o 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.
> o citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
> + ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural
> Revolution.
> + ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total
> k.)
> + Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to
> their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)
> The Ottawa Citizen (6 Feb. 1993)
> o Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It
> + 40M Christians martyred throughout history.
> + ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists
> + ca. 8M k. by other Christians
 
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:04:20 -0500, "Ghamph"
<ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:

>
>"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>
>> >
>> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>> >>
>> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>> >>> sadistic freak.
>> >>
>> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>> >>
>> > Your all powerful God permited it.

>>
>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
>> what people do.
>>

>
>Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
>


If God wanted to, he could make all of us mindless robots since
so many of us are determined to be so wicked. He doesn't want
that. He wants people that will -choose- to worship Him. And I
don't know about you, but speaking for me, I'd prefer to have
free will and make my own choice.

God not using His powers in way we believe He should does not
equate to Him not being all-powerful.
 
Andrew wrote:

> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>
> > If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> > sadistic freak.

>
> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> you were discussing sadism and cruety...


There are no wars or actions in the name of atheism.

Because atheism was banned along with ALL organizations in early communist
regimes it does not mean they killed in the name of atheists.

Atheism is simply a rejection of gods and nothing more.

But of course, since you cannot produce your gods you cling to any little thing
that can be used to propagate 'him'

Keep trying - you will be 'trying' right up to the day you die, like your grandpa
did.

>
>
> >
> > Religious Martyrs
> >
> > David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
> > o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard
> > reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica
> > and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page
> > [http://gem-werc.org/gd/gd16.pdf] estimating the number of martyrs since the
> > origin of each religion:
> > + Muslim martyrs: 80M
> > + Christian martyrs: 70M
> > # 20th Century: 45.4M
> > # At the hands of...
> > Atheists: 31,689,000
> > Muslims 9,121,000
> > Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
> > Christians: 5,538,000
> > Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
> > Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
> > Hindus: 676,000
> > Zoroastrians: 384,000
> > + Hindu martyrs: 20M
> > + Buddhist martyrs: 10M
> > + Jewish: 9M
> > + Ethnoreligious: 6M
> > + Sikh: 2M
> > + Baha'i: 1M
> > + Other religious martyrs: 5M
> > o The book defines martyrs as
> > 1. Believers in Christ (U.O.N.)
> > 2. Who have lost their lives
> > 3. Prematurely
> > 4. In situations of witness
> > 5. As a result of human hostility.
> > o World Christian Trends by Barrett et al: Apparently this book
> > gives more details about martyrdom statistics, but so far, I haven't found
> > it in a library (even our local seminary), and I can't afford to buy it
> > myself. (But see http://gem-werc.org/gd/listings.pdf) Here are some of the
> > major episodes that I've been able to scrounge from websites and articles.
> > Some of my sources have been somewhat ambiguous in their wording, so I
> > honestly don't know whether they mean to say that the Amerindians and
> > Baghdadians, for example, are meant as Christian martyrs or Muslim or
> > Shamanist, or whether the various subclasses who died at Soviet or Nazi
> > hands are already included in the largest number or meant to be added to it.
> > + Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
> > # 1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
> > # 1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
> > # Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs
> > (1929-37)
> > # Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
> > + By Mongols
> > # 1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M
> > martyrs
> > # 1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
> > # 1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
> > # 1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong
> > Nestorians: 4M martyrs
> > + Conquistadors kill 15 million Amerindians: 2M martyrs
> > (1560)
> > + Christians executed by Nazis in death camps: 1M
> > # Nazis exterminate 0.5M Gypsies
> > + Khmer Rouge slaughter 2M (1975)
> > + Kurds massacre 20,000 Nestorians (1843)
> > + Massacre of 40,000 Vietnamese Catholics (1970)
> > The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
> > o 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.
> > o citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
> > + ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural
> > Revolution.
> > + ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total
> > k.)
> > + Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to
> > their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)
> > The Ottawa Citizen (6 Feb. 1993)
> > o Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It
> > + 40M Christians martyred throughout history.
> > + ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists
> > + ca. 8M k. by other Christians
 
Andrew wrote:

> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>
> >
> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>
> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >>> sadistic freak.
> >>
> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >>

> > Your all powerful God permited it.

>
> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
> what people do.


Eeerrm I think he eas being sarcastic !

but of course there's no humoiur in religion is there, too human
 
Andrew wrote:

> On 2007-11-23 22:04:20 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>
> >
> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> > news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >>>>> sadistic freak.
> >>>>
> >>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> >>>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >>>>
> >>> Your all powerful God permited it.
> >>
> >> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
> >> what people do.
> >>

> >
> > Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.

>
> No - that doesn't follow at all, because I did not demur from your
> assertion that God permitted it. You really have no grasp of logic or
> reason at all, have you? Are you really saying people are omnipotent,
> by the way?


ROFL A religionists talking about Logic . Oh my what next !

ROFL
 
Gabriel wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>
> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >sadistic freak.

>
> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.


Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as indeed does
more than three quarters of humanity

> Those who reject Him
> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.


Oh dear - how sick. Talking of babies, ever seen a photo of one of those grossly
deformed fetus [human]. Maybe not but they are horrible to see, so horrible the
parents dont get to see it either before it is cremated.

Are these gross fetus one of 'the wonders of the Lord? Your loving god did that?

Of couse not, 'He' does not exist, but the random effects of the evolutionary
process going terribly wrong does?

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Statistics
> In 2003 alone, in the United States alone, 854,000 babies were
> murdered by those who reject God. Extend this world-wide, and you
> have millions of babies murdered every year.


I know of nothing in the bible condemning abortion. Care to oblige?

>
>
> Why do they do this? Here are the most popular reasons.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortions
> - Don't want the baby right now. So they murder him.
> - Don't think we can afford her. So they murder her.
> - Their relationship's not going well, so they murder him.
> - It will interfere with their education or job, so they murder
> her.
> - They don't want another baby. So they murder him.
>
> People who follow God would avoid abortions except in perhaps
> life-threatening situations. Those who reject God murder and
> continue to murder innocent babies by the millions every single
> year.
>
> It's human beings that are cold hearted. We can choose to repent
> from being murderers, adulterers, fornicators, liars and thieves
> and whatever else, and turn to God to save us from our
> wickedness, or we can continue on being just as desperately
> wicked murderers of innocent babies, adulterers, fornicators,
> liars and thieves and pay the wages for our sins.
>
> If God were vengeful, He would reject all of us even though we
> repent and beg for His mercy. He doesn't reject us.
>
> 2 Peter 3:9 KJVR The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
> as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not
> willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
> repentance.
>
> He takes any of us who truly repent and ask for forgiveness and
> mercy. Praise God!
 
Gabriel wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:04:20 -0500, "Ghamph"
> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >> >>
> >> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >> >>> sadistic freak.
> >> >>
> >> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> >> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >> >>
> >> > Your all powerful God permited it.
> >>
> >> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
> >> what people do.
> >>

> >
> >Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
> >

>
> If God wanted to, he could make all of us mindless robots since
> so many of us are determined to be so wicked. He doesn't want
> that.


Marvelous, here we have a claimed deity who's followers insist created the
universe, this planet and ourselves, but this magnificent power house has to
rely on you to propagate it's thoughts and ideas? GROAN

Does this not shout aloud "Man made his gods and man manipulates them for his
own gratification" ?

Indeed it does and not surprising, since the evolutionary process relies
heavily on 'gratification' to motivate every living thing on this planet.

> He wants people that will -choose- to worship Him. And I
> don't know about you, but speaking for me, I'd prefer to have
> free will and make my own choice.
>
> God not using His powers in way we believe He should does not
> equate to Him not being all-powerful.


Gods do nothing apart from infesting the minds of otherwise intelligent human
beings and the sad part of it is they do it to one another - for gratification,
of course.

Hope your post made you feel gratified. My reply did for me, part of life you
know. There are no gods
 
Ted J L wrote:

> In article <13ke1qu5be88b6c@corp.supernews.com>, ghamph@localnet.com says...
> >
> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, <Blaspheme Snipped>

>
> "Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your
> time is always ready." [Jn 7:6]


I'll give religionists their due, when it comes to hedging their bets and
covering all possibilities they are past masters at it. [they don't have much
choice do they?]

Problem is when it comes to producing their gods they are always dismal
failures.

>
>
> --
> Scripture references are quoted from The holy Bible, King James version
> Prepared for the University of Virginia Library Electronic Text Center
> http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/relig.browse.html
 
"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8s7fk3l45komt1jv6lvj92m9kmvvrmfdl6@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:04:20 -0500, "Ghamph"
> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>> >>
>>> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold
>>> >>> hearted
>>> >>> sadistic freak.
>>> >>
>>> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>>> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>> >>
>>> > Your all powerful God permited it.
>>>
>>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
>>> what people do.
>>>

>>
>>Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
>>

>
> If God wanted to, he could make all of us mindless robots since
> so many of us are determined to be so wicked.


Most people who reject the Christian God are not wicked.
Wicked people are in a minority, except if you believe that the six o'clock
news and the biblical stories are the only realities.
And as for being a robot, Christians are given a choice, that's true, but
only to become the Bible God's robot. Same result.

> He doesn't want
> that. He wants people that will -choose- to worship Him.


What about those who are not worshipping types?
Not everyone is a born worshipper. In fact most are not.
Why do you believe the Creator enjoys being worshipped and praised so much?
Is he obsessed with himself?

> And I
> don't know about you, but speaking for me, I'd prefer to have
> free will and make my own choice.


What choice? Worship me or die?
If a gun is put to your head (which it has) then of course your choice is
better.
But why buy into such a charade in the first place?

>
> God not using His powers in way we believe He should does not
> equate to Him not being all-powerful.


But he doesn't use his powers at all.
At least not since the biblical times.
Maybe he's gone.
 
"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>
>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>> sadistic freak.

>
> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now, you
> were discussing sadism and cruety...


Wrong.
No one has ever committed mass murder in the name of atheism. Politics and
other causes yes, but not purely in the name of atheism.

And atheism is not a religion. There are very few people in the world who
campaign for atheism religiously. Not enough to form a religion.
 

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