Religious Martyrs

Andrew wrote:

> On 2007-11-24 16:29:27 +0000, "Ralph" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >
> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> > news:2007112410364727544-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> On 2007-11-24 06:13:20 +0000, "Andrew W"
> >> <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> said:
> >>
> >>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >>>>> sadistic freak.
> >>>>
> >>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now, you
> >>>> were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >>>
> >>> Wrong.
> >>> No one has ever committed mass murder in the name of atheism. Politics
> >>> and
> >>> other causes yes, but not purely in the name of atheism.
> >>
> >>
> >> Oh - that's OK then. Atheists slaughtering religionists for their beliefs
> >> can be written off Atheism's books because it's 'politics'. Those 31, 689,
> >> 000 will rest easier for that.
> >
> > You have evidence that it was in the name of atheism? I don't think you do
> > but will be more than happy to apologize if you do have evidence. Either put
> > up or shut up, Andrew.
> >
> >
> >>> And atheism is not a religion. There are very few people in the world who
> >>> campaign for atheism religiously. Not enough to form a religion.
> >>
> >> So you're not a religion because you don't have the numbers?
> >
> > Educated persons around the world know that atheism isn't a religion. Where
> > does that leave you?
>
> No. Atheists around the world state that it is not a religion because
> it fits their purposes to do so. It allows them to glide dishonestly
> between "I don't believe..." and "I believe there is no..." without
> having to recognise that there is a difference.

Thank you so much for encouraging me to work hard on atheistic thaughts
in the vain hope that there will be less brain damaged people like you in the
world
when my kids grow up and are old enough to be enlisted.
 
Gabriel wrote:

> On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Gabriel wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
> >> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >> >sadistic freak.
> >>
> >> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
> >> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.
> >
> >Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as indeed does
> >more than three quarters of humanity
>
> What's that: choose who wicked or good we're going to be?
>
> >
> >> Those who reject Him
> >> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
> >
> >Oh dear - how sick.
>
> Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
> the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.
>
> >Talking of babies, ever seen a photo of one of those grossly
> >deformed fetus [human]. Maybe not but they are horrible to see, so horrible the
> >parents dont get to see it either before it is cremated.
> >
> >Are these gross fetus one of 'the wonders of the Lord? Your loving god did that?
>
> When Adam and Even sinned, death entered the world.

I called you sick before and regrettably i have to repeat it

Sicko - that is a stupid myth from about a thousand years ago

>
>
> Romans 5:12 KJVR Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the
> world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for
> that all have sinned:
>
> We are living in a cursed, corrupted world. Believers and
> non-believers alike are subject to its corrupted effects.

ever since man could use a basic language we have been in that condition. the
imagnoary gods came later

> But for
> those of us who show that we don't deserve the same fate as Adam,
> can do so by a show of righteousness through faith in Christ our
> Lord.
>
> Romans 10:4 KJVR For Christ is the end of the law for
> righteousness to every one that believeth.
>
> Romans 10:9-11 KJVR That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
> the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
> raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the
> heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
> confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture saith,
> Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
>
> >
> >Of couse not, 'He' does not exist, but the random effects of the evolutionary
> >process going terribly wrong does?
> >
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Statistics
> >> In 2003 alone, in the United States alone, 854,000 babies were
> >> murdered by those who reject God. Extend this world-wide, and you
> >> have millions of babies murdered every year.
> >
> >I know of nothing in the bible condemning abortion. Care to oblige?
>
> Certainly. Abortion is murder. Do you know of anything in the
> Bible that condemns murder?

i am asking about abortion and there is nothing.

do you people EVER get tired of all your contortions?

>
>
> And how fortunate we who live are that our parents didn't murder
> us. How unfortunate for millions human beings every year who get
> murdered by their parents.
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Why do they do this? Here are the most popular reasons.
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortions
> >> - Don't want the baby right now. So they murder him.
> >> - Don't think we can afford her. So they murder her.
> >> - Their relationship's not going well, so they murder him.
> >> - It will interfere with their education or job, so they murder
> >> her.
> >> - They don't want another baby. So they murder him.
> >>
> >> People who follow God would avoid abortions except in perhaps
> >> life-threatening situations. Those who reject God murder and
> >> continue to murder innocent babies by the millions every single
> >> year.
> >>
> >> It's human beings that are cold hearted. We can choose to repent
> >> from being murderers, adulterers, fornicators, liars and thieves
> >> and whatever else, and turn to God to save us from our
> >> wickedness, or we can continue on being just as desperately
> >> wicked murderers of innocent babies, adulterers, fornicators,
> >> liars and thieves and pay the wages for our sins.
> >>
> >> If God were vengeful, He would reject all of us even though we
> >> repent and beg for His mercy. He doesn't reject us.
> >>
> >> 2 Peter 3:9 KJVR The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
> >> as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not
> >> willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
> >> repentance.
> >>
> >> He takes any of us who truly repent and ask for forgiveness and
> >> mercy. Praise God!
 
Andrew wrote:

> On 2007-11-24 03:50:01 +0000, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> said:
>
> >
> >
> > Ghamph wrote:
> >
> >> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >> sadistic freak.
> >
> > Frankly what you list here [by the way you were two humans too many!] are
> > normal behavioral results of human activity.
> >
> > We must remember that we lived as savages for over two million year largely
> > without any change of life style, left to fend for ourselves, no laws, nothing
> > but brute force, no wonder we still keep on killing each other, it is
> > instinctive.
> >
> > Problem is for the first time we now have the weapons that can destroy the
> > whole of humanity.
> >
> > I wonder if we will manage it?
> >
> > If we do the chances are it will be in the name of some god or other, the
> > Christian one, or the other imaginary deity....... Allah.
>
> Chances are, if history is anything to go by, it'll be over politics.

...........the chances are a good proportion of all prayer meetings in The middle
east end up with "Death to America"

>
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Religious Martyrs
> >>
> >> David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
> >> o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard
> >> reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica
> >> and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page
> >> [http://gem-werc.org/gd/gd16.pdf] estimating the number of martyrs since the
> >> origin of each religion:
> >> + Muslim martyrs: 80M
> >> + Christian martyrs: 70M
> >> # 20th Century: 45.4M
> >> # At the hands of...
> >> Atheists: 31,689,000
> >> Muslims 9,121,000
> >> Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
> >> Christians: 5,538,000
> >> Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
> >> Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
> >> Hindus: 676,000
> >> Zoroastrians: 384,000
> >> + Hindu martyrs: 20M
> >> + Buddhist martyrs: 10M
> >> + Jewish: 9M
> >> + Ethnoreligious: 6M
> >> + Sikh: 2M
> >> + Baha'i: 1M
> >> + Other religious martyrs: 5M
> >> o The book defines martyrs as
> >> 1. Believers in Christ (U.O.N.)
> >> 2. Who have lost their lives
> >> 3. Prematurely
> >> 4. In situations of witness
> >> 5. As a result of human hostility.
> >> o World Christian Trends by Barrett et al: Apparently this book
> >> gives more details about martyrdom statistics, but so far, I haven't found
> >> it in a library (even our local seminary), and I can't afford to buy it
> >> myself. (But see http://gem-werc.org/gd/listings.pdf) Here are some of the
> >> major episodes that I've been able to scrounge from websites and articles.
> >> Some of my sources have been somewhat ambiguous in their wording, so I
> >> honestly don't know whether they mean to say that the Amerindians and
> >> Baghdadians, for example, are meant as Christian martyrs or Muslim or
> >> Shamanist, or whether the various subclasses who died at Soviet or Nazi
> >> hands are already included in the largest number or meant to be added to it.
> >> + Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
> >> # 1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
> >> # 1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
> >> # Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs
> >> (1929-37)
> >> # Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
> >> + By Mongols
> >> # 1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M
> >> martyrs
> >> # 1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
> >> # 1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
> >> # 1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong
> >> Nestorians: 4M martyrs
> >> + Conquistadors kill 15 million Amerindians: 2M martyrs
> >> (1560)
> >> + Christians executed by Nazis in death camps: 1M
> >> # Nazis exterminate 0.5M Gypsies
> >> + Khmer Rouge slaughter 2M (1975)
> >> + Kurds massacre 20,000 Nestorians (1843)
> >> + Massacre of 40,000 Vietnamese Catholics (1970)
> >> The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
> >> o 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.
> >> o citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
> >> + ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural
> >> Revolution.
> >> + ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total
> >> k.)
> >> + Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to
> >> their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)
> >> The Ottawa Citizen (6 Feb. 1993)
> >> o Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It
> >> + 40M Christians martyred throughout history.
> >> + ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists
> >> + ca. 8M k. by other Christians
 
"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1jlgk3tif8qbakg1bihcuih03rsnkgag36@4ax.com...
> On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Gabriel wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
>>> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>> >sadistic freak.
>>>
>>> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
>>> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.
>>
>>Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as
>>indeed does
>>more than three quarters of humanity
>
> What's that: choose who wicked or good we're going to be?
>
>>
>>> Those who reject Him
>>> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
>>
>>Oh dear - how sick.
>
> Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
> the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.

Don't be a spastic. No one has ever had an abortion just for "convenience".
And abortion of a foetus is not equal to "murder" of "babies".

Your distortion and twisting of information shows how much of a wild-eyed
cultist you really are.

But when it comes to your cruel and callous Bible God, well then its
perfectly alright to torture and kill children and adults.
Is a foetus worth more than a fully born child?


--
Andrew W.

"You must unlearn what you have learned" ~ Yoda

Channelled lessons about ET's, ascended masters like Jesus Christ, spirit
guides, earth changes.
http://www.spiritnexus.com/audio/channeling/index.htm

The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm

Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.acim.org/

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
 
x-no-archive: yes
On 24 Nov 2007 23:25:01 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
 
Gabriel wrote:

> On 23 Nov 2007 22:08:01 -0600, bob young
> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Gabriel wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:04:20 -0500, "Ghamph"
> >> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> >> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> >> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >> >> >>> sadistic freak.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> >> >> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> > Your all powerful God permited it.
> >> >>
> >> >> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
> >> >> what people do.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
> >> >
> >>
> >> If God wanted to, he could make all of us mindless robots since
> >> so many of us are determined to be so wicked. He doesn't want
> >> that.
> >
> >Marvelous, here we have a claimed deity who's followers insist created the
> >universe, this planet and ourselves, but this magnificent power house has to
> >rely on you to propagate it's thoughts and ideas? GROAN
>
> Key flaw in your thought is "has" to. God doesn't -have- to do
> anything. But it's by faith that imputes righteousness, and it's
> not faith if God was to appear in front of us and appeal to our
> ego in order for us to believe.

'IF' being the operative word, your imaginary god has not appeared for the claimed
two thousand years and never will

>
>
> >
> >Does this not shout aloud "Man made his gods and man manipulates them for his
> >own gratification" ?
>
> No, it sounds more like man making excuses so He can remain
> separate from God and no be forced to love their neighbor like
> themselves.

You disgust me that you think only people following your myth are the only ones
that love their neighbors.

'Love your neighbor 'is simply a ruse used by the clergy because they now the
majority will be pleased with it, Just like sin, commandeered by the clergy,
repackaged and sold in church as a Christian benefit, when it is in fact a normal
human trait found in all decent people, whether they are Christians or not.

>
>
> >
> >Indeed it does and not surprising, since the evolutionary process relies
> >heavily on 'gratification' to motivate every living thing on this planet.
>
> Yes, and wanting to reject God is another such motivation driven
> by gratification.

Groan

>
>
> >
> >> He wants people that will -choose- to worship Him. And I
> >> don't know about you, but speaking for me, I'd prefer to have
> >> free will and make my own choice.
> >>
> >> God not using His powers in way we believe He should does not
> >> equate to Him not being all-powerful.
> >
> >Gods do nothing apart from infesting the minds of otherwise intelligent human
> >beings and the sad part of it is they do it to one another - for gratification,
> >of course.
>
> You mentioned evolutionary process. You want to talk about
> gratification .. If you saw what looked like a robot made out of
> materials you had never seen before, that spoke like a human but
> seemed devoid of emotion, you would wonder who created it. If I
> said it is the offspring from another much like it that just
> evolved from an explosion in my great, great, great
> grandfathers's back yard, you'd call me a liar and demand to know
> who created it.
>
> And yet we're infinitely more complex and superior creations,
> with superior intelligence, conscience, consciousness, emotions,
> ability to reproduce life, and instead of wondering who made you,
> you now just assume we evolved from a lifeless explosion by
> random miraculous chance. To teach that illogical nonsense to
> young minds is to infest otherwise intelligent human beings. And
> the sad part is, the only reason some people cling to this
> imaginary tale with such fervor is to have a means to reject God.
> Now that's gratification.

No it is bordering on the criminal and that means people like you cramming innocent
brains with primitive dogma so that they grow up believing it just like you did.

>
>
> >
> >Hope your post made you feel gratified. My reply did for me, part of life you
> >know. There are no gods
> >
>
> Look at those miraculous machines called human beings all around
> you: their life, intelligence, consciousness, conscience, ability
> to reproduce.

Just look [if you have the stamina] at a grossly deformed human fetus that arrives
dead and so gross the parents are not allowed to see it. Look at a few of these
and you will soon forget the crass nonsense about a god creating we humans and
everything else.

The deformed fetus, of course, is simply the random process of evolution going
terribly wrong as it does from time to time.

> Then tell yourself they evolved from an explosion
> of lifeless materials.

If you had told your local vicar three hundred years ago that doctors would one day
transplant the human heart from one body to another he would have laughed you to
the church door.

How it all began we may never know but it certainly was not a god that you folks
say appeared at one second to midnight if we express the life of this planet with
ether period your god has been groveled to and humans had the ability to converse
in a language.

In a couple of million years perhaps the chimps will have learned how to talk and
the we can watch out for the first chimp god to be announced - it will look
remarkably chimplike.

> Then tell yourself again there is no God.
> When actually allowing yourself to think about it, you'll realize
> how ridiculous a claim it is to such complex living organisms
> were created from a lifeless explosion. If you do this in
> sincerity, you'll realize the lie that you've been fed.
>
> Romans 1:18-23 KJVR For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
> against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the
> truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of
> God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. 20
> For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
> are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
> even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without
> excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him
> not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
> imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22
> Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And
> changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made
> like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> creeping things.
>
> If you have any other questions let me know.

no thanks your twisted logic and primitive mythology is nauseating.
 
"john w

> x-no-archive: yes
> On 24 Nov 2007 23:25:01 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
> wrote:
>
 
Andrew W wrote:

> "Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1jlgk3tif8qbakg1bihcuih03rsnkgag36@4ax.com...
> > On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
> > <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>Gabriel wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
> >>> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >>> >sadistic freak.
> >>>
> >>> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
> >>> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.
> >>
> >>Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as
> >>indeed does
> >>more than three quarters of humanity
> >
> > What's that: choose who wicked or good we're going to be?
> >
> >>
> >>> Those who reject Him
> >>> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
> >>
> >>Oh dear - how sick.
> >
> > Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
> > the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.
>
> Don't be a spastic. No one has ever had an abortion just for "convenience".
> And abortion of a foetus is not equal to "murder" of "babies".
>
> Your distortion and twisting of information shows how much of a wild-eyed
> cultist you really are.
>
> But when it comes to your cruel and callous Bible God, well then its
> perfectly alright to torture and kill children and adults.
> Is a foetus worth more than a fully born child?

Indeed it is:

Genesis 38:24
About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is
guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant." Judah said,
"Bring her out and have her burned to death!"

Exodus 32:20
And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground
it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

Numbers 15:36
And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with
stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

1 Kings 21:13
And there came in two men, children of Belial, and sat before him: and the
men of Belial witnessed against him, even against Naboth, in the presence of
the people, saying, Naboth did blaspheme God and the king. Then they carried
him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died.


>
>
> --
> Andrew W.
>
> "You must unlearn what you have learned" ~ Yoda
>
> Channelled lessons about ET's, ascended masters like Jesus Christ, spirit
> guides, earth changes.
> http://www.spiritnexus.com/audio/channeling/index.htm
>
> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
> Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
>
> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
> http://www.acim.org/
>
> Religion Exposed!
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
 
And the 'facts' will set you free!

"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:47496459.A4E24A18@netvigator.com...
>
>
> Andrew W wrote:
>
>> "Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1jlgk3tif8qbakg1bihcuih03rsnkgag36@4ax.com...
>> > On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
>> > <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Gabriel wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
>> >>> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold
>> >>> >hearted
>> >>> >sadistic freak.
>> >>>
>> >>> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
>> >>> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.
>> >>
>> >>Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as
>> >>indeed does
>> >>more than three quarters of humanity
>> >
>> > What's that: choose who wicked or good we're going to be?
>> >
>> >>
>> >>> Those who reject Him
>> >>> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
>> >>
>> >>Oh dear - how sick.
>> >
>> > Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
>> > the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.
>>
>> Don't be a spastic. No one has ever had an abortion just for
>> "convenience".
>> And abortion of a foetus is not equal to "murder" of "babies".
>>
>> Your distortion and twisting of information shows how much of a wild-eyed
>> cultist you really are.
>>
>> But when it comes to your cruel and callous Bible God, well then its
>> perfectly alright to torture and kill children and adults.
>> Is a foetus worth more than a fully born child?
>
> Indeed it is:
>
> Genesis 38:24
> About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is
> guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant." Judah said,
> "Bring her out and have her burned to death!"
>
> Exodus 32:20
> And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he
> ground
> it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.
>
> Numbers 15:36
> And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with
> stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
>
> 1 Kings 21:13
> And there came in two men, children of Belial, and sat before him: and the
> men of Belial witnessed against him, even against Naboth, in the presence
> of
> the people, saying, Naboth did blaspheme God and the king. Then they
> carried
> him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died.
>
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andrew W.
>>
>> "You must unlearn what you have learned" ~ Yoda
>>
>> Channelled lessons about ET's, ascended masters like Jesus Christ, spirit
>> guides, earth changes.
>> http://www.spiritnexus.com/audio/channeling/index.htm
>>
>> The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
>> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
>> Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
>>
>> Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
>> http://www.acim.org/
>>
>> Religion Exposed!
>> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
>
 
x-no-archive: yes
On 25 Nov 2007 06:03:02 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
 
x-no-archive: yes
On 25 Nov 2007 06:03:02 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
wrote:
 
"john w

> x-no-archive: yes
> On 25 Nov 2007 06:03:02 -0600, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com>
> wrote:
>
 
On 25 Nov 2007 06:02:02 -0600, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:

>
>
>Gabriel wrote:
>
>> On 23 Nov 2007 22:08:01 -0600, bob young
>> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Gabriel wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:04:20 -0500, "Ghamph"
>> >> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>> >> >news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> >> >> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>> >> >> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> >> >> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>> >> >> >>> sadistic freak.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>> >> >> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> > Your all powerful God permited it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
>> >> >> what people do.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> If God wanted to, he could make all of us mindless robots since
>> >> so many of us are determined to be so wicked. He doesn't want
>> >> that.
>> >
>> >Marvelous, here we have a claimed deity who's followers insist created the
>> >universe, this planet and ourselves, but this magnificent power house has to
>> >rely on you to propagate it's thoughts and ideas? GROAN
>>
>> Key flaw in your thought is "has" to. God doesn't -have- to do
>> anything. But it's by faith that imputes righteousness, and it's
>> not faith if God was to appear in front of us and appeal to our
>> ego in order for us to believe.
>
>'IF' being the operative word, your imaginary god has not appeared for the claimed
>two thousand years and never will

2 Peter 3:8-10 KJVR But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one
thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning
his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to
us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should
come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a
thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with
a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the
earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Does this not shout aloud "Man made his gods and man manipulates them for his
>> >own gratification" ?
>>
>> No, it sounds more like man making excuses so He can remain
>> separate from God and no be forced to love their neighbor like
>> themselves.
>
>You disgust me that you think only people following your myth are the only ones
>that love their neighbors.

Don't forget loving your enemies. I take it you do this to?
Doesn't look like it, given the hate you show in your own posts.

Some that have not yet found the truth of God probably do manage
to love many others as they'd love themselves, yes. But as
evidenced by all non-believers that come to God-worshipping
newsgroups, there are a great many that don't even know the
meaning of the word, unfortunately. :(

>
>'Love your neighbor 'is simply a ruse used by the clergy because they now the
>majority will be pleased with it, Just like sin, commandeered by the clergy,
>repackaged and sold in church as a Christian benefit, when it is in fact a normal
>human trait found in all decent people, whether they are Christians or not.
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Indeed it does and not surprising, since the evolutionary process relies
>> >heavily on 'gratification' to motivate every living thing on this planet.
>>
>> Yes, and wanting to reject God is another such motivation driven
>> by gratification.
>
>Groan
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> He wants people that will -choose- to worship Him. And I
>> >> don't know about you, but speaking for me, I'd prefer to have
>> >> free will and make my own choice.
>> >>
>> >> God not using His powers in way we believe He should does not
>> >> equate to Him not being all-powerful.
>> >
>> >Gods do nothing apart from infesting the minds of otherwise intelligent human
>> >beings and the sad part of it is they do it to one another - for gratification,
>> >of course.
>>
>> You mentioned evolutionary process. You want to talk about
>> gratification .. If you saw what looked like a robot made out of
>> materials you had never seen before, that spoke like a human but
>> seemed devoid of emotion, you would wonder who created it. If I
>> said it is the offspring from another much like it that just
>> evolved from an explosion in my great, great, great
>> grandfathers's back yard, you'd call me a liar and demand to know
>> who created it.
>>
>> And yet we're infinitely more complex and superior creations,
>> with superior intelligence, conscience, consciousness, emotions,
>> ability to reproduce life, and instead of wondering who made you,
>> you now just assume we evolved from a lifeless explosion by
>> random miraculous chance. To teach that illogical nonsense to
>> young minds is to infest otherwise intelligent human beings. And
>> the sad part is, the only reason some people cling to this
>> imaginary tale with such fervor is to have a means to reject God.
>> Now that's gratification.
>
>No it is bordering on the criminal and that means people like you cramming innocent
>brains with primitive dogma so that they grow up believing it just like you did.

Assumptions seem to drive you. I grew up not believing in God. It
was not until recently that I came to realize the truth of God.
Praise God!

Meanwhile, I'm so sorry you actually believe you were created
from a mindless explosion of lifelessness. You are so right that
it borders on criminal that people cramming innocent brains with
primitive dogma of people being created from a lifeless
explosion.

>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Hope your post made you feel gratified. My reply did for me, part of life you
>> >know. There are no gods
>> >
>>
>> Look at those miraculous machines called human beings all around
>> you: their life, intelligence, consciousness, conscience, ability
>> to reproduce.
>
>Just look [if you have the stamina] at a grossly deformed human fetus that arrives
>dead and so gross the parents are not allowed to see it. Look at a few of these
>and you will soon forget the crass nonsense about a god creating we humans and
>everything else.

Not at all. Because of Adam and Eve's sin, this world is cursed,
so that believers and non-believers alike are subject to it's
warped condition.

But God's Blessings rain down on those who believe. We witness it
first hand daily. Many of us give thanks daily. And those of us
to trust in His only begotton son Jesus Christ as the only way to
save ourselves from our inability to keep from sinning will get
past this warped world into heaven.

>
>The deformed fetus, of course, is simply the random process of evolution going
>terribly wrong as it does from time to time.
>
>> Then tell yourself they evolved from an explosion
>> of lifeless materials.
>
>If you had told your local vicar three hundred years ago that doctors would one day
>transplant the human heart from one body to another he would have laughed you to
>the church door.

And all of that, according to you, is the result of an explosion
of lifeless matter. If you stop for even a minute to think of
that ridiculous notion, if you still can't admit God as your
creator, worst case you would come back with "ok, maybe it was a
ridiculous notion that a lifeless explosion created us. Well
then, I guess I'll just settle on we don't know how it all
happened." And maybe one day after that, when you allow yourself
to get more objective, you'll allow your conscience to get a word
in edgewise and listen to what it's trying to tell you.
Meanwhile, you keep posting here to convince yourself it's wrong.
Take a hard look at your own behavior. Trust your conscience.

Take care.

>
>How it all began we may never know but it certainly was not a god that you folks
>say appeared at one second to midnight if we express the life of this planet with
>ether period your god has been groveled to and humans had the ability to converse
>in a language.
>
>In a couple of million years perhaps the chimps will have learned how to talk and
>the we can watch out for the first chimp god to be announced - it will look
>remarkably chimplike.
>
>> Then tell yourself again there is no God.
>> When actually allowing yourself to think about it, you'll realize
>> how ridiculous a claim it is to such complex living organisms
>> were created from a lifeless explosion. If you do this in
>> sincerity, you'll realize the lie that you've been fed.
>>
>> Romans 1:18-23 KJVR For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
>> against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the
>> truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of
>> God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. 20
>> For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
>> are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
>> even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without
>> excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him
>> not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
>> imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22
>> Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And
>> changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made
>> like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
>> creeping things.
>>
>> If you have any other questions let me know.
>
>no thanks your twisted logic and primitive mythology is nauseating.
>
 
On 24 Nov 2007 23:25:01 -0600, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:

>
>
>Gabriel wrote:
>
>> On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
>> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Gabriel wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
>> >> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>> >> >sadistic freak.
>> >>
>> >> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
>> >> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.
>> >
>> >Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as indeed does
>> >more than three quarters of humanity
>>
>> What's that: choose who wicked or good we're going to be?
>>
>> >
>> >> Those who reject Him
>> >> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
>> >
>> >Oh dear - how sick.
>>
>> Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
>> the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.
>>
>> >Talking of babies, ever seen a photo of one of those grossly
>> >deformed fetus [human]. Maybe not but they are horrible to see, so horrible the
>> >parents dont get to see it either before it is cremated.
>> >
>> >Are these gross fetus one of 'the wonders of the Lord? Your loving god did that?
>>
>> When Adam and Even sinned, death entered the world.
>
>I called you sick before and regrettably i have to repeat it
>
>Sicko - that is a stupid myth from about a thousand years ago
>
>>
>>
>> Romans 5:12 KJVR Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the
>> world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for
>> that all have sinned:
>>
>> We are living in a cursed, corrupted world. Believers and
>> non-believers alike are subject to its corrupted effects.
>
>ever since man could use a basic language we have been in that condition. the
>imagnoary gods came later
>
>> But for
>> those of us who show that we don't deserve the same fate as Adam,
>> can do so by a show of righteousness through faith in Christ our
>> Lord.
>>
>> Romans 10:4 KJVR For Christ is the end of the law for
>> righteousness to every one that believeth.
>>
>> Romans 10:9-11 KJVR That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
>> the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
>> raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the
>> heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
>> confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture saith,
>> Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
>>
>> >
>> >Of couse not, 'He' does not exist, but the random effects of the evolutionary
>> >process going terribly wrong does?
>> >
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Statistics
>> >> In 2003 alone, in the United States alone, 854,000 babies were
>> >> murdered by those who reject God. Extend this world-wide, and you
>> >> have millions of babies murdered every year.
>> >
>> >I know of nothing in the bible condemning abortion. Care to oblige?
>>
>> Certainly. Abortion is murder. Do you know of anything in the
>> Bible that condemns murder?
>
>i am asking about abortion and there is nothing.

See what I mean? Right there in the span of one post you
rationalized away the murder of innocent babies, clearly acting
like an abortion is not murder. Unbelievable.

>
>do you people EVER get tired of all your contortions?
>
>>
>>
>> And how fortunate we who live are that our parents didn't murder
>> us. How unfortunate for millions human beings every year who get
>> murdered by their parents.
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Why do they do this? Here are the most popular reasons.
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortions
>> >> - Don't want the baby right now. So they murder him.
>> >> - Don't think we can afford her. So they murder her.
>> >> - Their relationship's not going well, so they murder him.
>> >> - It will interfere with their education or job, so they murder
>> >> her.
>> >> - They don't want another baby. So they murder him.
>> >>
>> >> People who follow God would avoid abortions except in perhaps
>> >> life-threatening situations. Those who reject God murder and
>> >> continue to murder innocent babies by the millions every single
>> >> year.
>> >>
>> >> It's human beings that are cold hearted. We can choose to repent
>> >> from being murderers, adulterers, fornicators, liars and thieves
>> >> and whatever else, and turn to God to save us from our
>> >> wickedness, or we can continue on being just as desperately
>> >> wicked murderers of innocent babies, adulterers, fornicators,
>> >> liars and thieves and pay the wages for our sins.
>> >>
>> >> If God were vengeful, He would reject all of us even though we
>> >> repent and beg for His mercy. He doesn't reject us.
>> >>
>> >> 2 Peter 3:9 KJVR The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
>> >> as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not
>> >> willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
>> >> repentance.
>> >>
>> >> He takes any of us who truly repent and ask for forgiveness and
>> >> mercy. Praise God!
 
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:51:36 +1100, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:

>"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1jlgk3tif8qbakg1bihcuih03rsnkgag36@4ax.com...
>> On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
>> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Gabriel wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
>>>> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>>> >sadistic freak.
>>>>
>>>> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
>>>> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.
>>>
>>>Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as
>>>indeed does
>>>more than three quarters of humanity
>>
>> What's that: choose who wicked or good we're going to be?
>>
>>>
>>>> Those who reject Him
>>>> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
>>>
>>>Oh dear - how sick.
>>
>> Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
>> the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.
>
>Don't be a spastic. No one has ever had an abortion just for "convenience".

No one? You sure? Look more closely at the reasons given on that
website. You snipped the most popular ones given by that study,
and here they are again:

- Don't want the baby right now. So they murder him. It's a shame
their baby didn't come at a convenient time.
- Don't think we can afford her. So they murder her. How
inconvenient they don't think they can afford her. So they murder
her.
- Their relationship's not going well, so they murder him. How
inconvenient to have a baby when the relationship's not going as
well as they would like. So they murder her.
- It will interfere with their education or job, so they murder
her. How inconvenient that education would have to take a back
seat to the life of an innocent child. Hey, my education is more
important, they say, and they murder her.

It is quite dishonest of you to claim these babies are never
murdered out of convenience, when the vast majority of baby boys
and baby girls are murdered for exactly that reason!

>And abortion of a foetus is not equal to "murder" of "babies".

Does admitting it's a baby make you feel uncomfortable? It
should! Does calling it a fetus make you feel ok to murder him or
her? That's amazing! You're yet another person that rationalizes
away the murder of innocent babies. How tragic that you think
it's ok to do so. That's scary.

Some think it sounds bad what God does to us sinners. But when
you continue to witness first hand out wicked and murderous we
can be, the fact is every one of us deserves it.

Take care. I hope you one day you at least realize it's not a
good thing to murder babies, whether you believe in God or not.

>
>Your distortion and twisting of information shows how much of a wild-eyed
>cultist you really are.
>
>But when it comes to your cruel and callous Bible God, well then its
>perfectly alright to torture and kill children and adults.
>Is a foetus worth more than a fully born child?
 
Gabriel wrote:

> On 25 Nov 2007 06:02:02 -0600, bob young
> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Gabriel wrote:
> >
> >> On 23 Nov 2007 22:08:01 -0600, bob young
> >> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Gabriel wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:04:20 -0500, "Ghamph"
> >> >> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >> >> >news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> >> >> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >> >> >> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> >> >> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >> >> >> >>> sadistic freak.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> >> >> >> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Your all powerful God permited it.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
> >> >> >> what people do.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> If God wanted to, he could make all of us mindless robots since
> >> >> so many of us are determined to be so wicked. He doesn't want
> >> >> that.
> >> >
> >> >Marvelous, here we have a claimed deity who's followers insist created the
> >> >universe, this planet and ourselves, but this magnificent power house has to
> >> >rely on you to propagate it's thoughts and ideas? GROAN
> >>
> >> Key flaw in your thought is "has" to. God doesn't -have- to do
> >> anything. But it's by faith that imputes righteousness, and it's
> >> not faith if God was to appear in front of us and appeal to our
> >> ego in order for us to believe.
> >
> >'IF' being the operative word, your imaginary god has not appeared for the claimed
> >two thousand years and never will
>
> 2 Peter 3:8-10 KJVR But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one
> thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a
> thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning
> his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to
> us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should
> come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a
> thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with
> a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the
> earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So some primitive wrote this to impress the 'followers' of the time.

What is it supposed to prove in the year 2007 ?

>
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Does this not shout aloud "Man made his gods and man manipulates them for his
> >> >own gratification" ?
> >>
> >> No, it sounds more like man making excuses so He can remain
> >> separate from God and no be forced to love their neighbor like
> >> themselves.
> >
> >You disgust me that you think only people following your myth are the only ones
> >that love their neighbors.
>
> Don't forget loving your enemies. I take it you do this to?
> Doesn't look like it, given the hate you show in your own posts.

The hate you see is imaginary [like your god]. You see it as hate because I make
logical comments that make your belief seem shaky.

>
>
> Some that have not yet found the truth of God probably do manage
> to love many others as they'd love themselves, yes. But as
> evidenced by all non-believers that come to God-worshipping
> newsgroups, there are a great many that don't even know the
> meaning of the word, unfortunately. :(

We are humans, [homo sapien] and as such we are and always will be dangerous animals.

As to whether others here know the meaning of the word love, I say you are being unkind
to make such an assertion as you have no way of knowing simply by reading their posts
here, unless they make hateful statement, which i have not done. so you do not know
whether i can love my neighbor ore not.

I do know that I live at the top of a long hill with no bus service so when I see the
old Chinese lady [my neighbor] walking slowly up the hill carrying her daily purchases
I always stop my car and give her a lift. We manage a simple conversation in
Cantonese, simple because my Cantonese is limited.

>
> >
> >'Love your neighbor 'is simply a ruse used by the clergy because they now the
> >majority will be pleased with it, Just like sin, commandeered by the clergy,
> >repackaged and sold in church as a Christian benefit, when it is in fact a normal
> >human trait found in all decent people, whether they are Christians or not.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Indeed it does and not surprising, since the evolutionary process relies
> >> >heavily on 'gratification' to motivate every living thing on this planet.
> >>
> >> Yes, and wanting to reject God is another such motivation driven
> >> by gratification.
> >
> >Groan
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> He wants people that will -choose- to worship Him. And I
> >> >> don't know about you, but speaking for me, I'd prefer to have
> >> >> free will and make my own choice.
> >> >>
> >> >> God not using His powers in way we believe He should does not
> >> >> equate to Him not being all-powerful.
> >> >
> >> >Gods do nothing apart from infesting the minds of otherwise intelligent human
> >> >beings and the sad part of it is they do it to one another - for gratification,
> >> >of course.
> >>
> >> You mentioned evolutionary process. You want to talk about
> >> gratification .. If you saw what looked like a robot made out of
> >> materials you had never seen before, that spoke like a human but
> >> seemed devoid of emotion, you would wonder who created it. If I
> >> said it is the offspring from another much like it that just
> >> evolved from an explosion in my great, great, great
> >> grandfathers's back yard, you'd call me a liar and demand to know
> >> who created it.
> >>
> >> And yet we're infinitely more complex and superior creations,
> >> with superior intelligence, conscience, consciousness, emotions,
> >> ability to reproduce life, and instead of wondering who made you,
> >> you now just assume we evolved from a lifeless explosion by
> >> random miraculous chance. To teach that illogical nonsense to
> >> young minds is to infest otherwise intelligent human beings. And
> >> the sad part is, the only reason some people cling to this
> >> imaginary tale with such fervor is to have a means to reject God.
> >> Now that's gratification.
> >
> >No it is bordering on the criminal and that means people like you cramming innocent
> >brains with primitive dogma so that they grow up believing it just like you did.
>
> Assumptions seem to drive you. I grew up not believing in God.

Well in that case you are

1) Lying for your God or

2) A small minority among Christian society

> It
> was not until recently that I came to realize the truth of God.
> Praise God!

see above

>
>
> Meanwhile, I'm so sorry you actually believe you were created
> from a mindless explosion of lifelessness. You are so right that
> it borders on criminal that people cramming innocent brains with
> primitive dogma of people being created from a lifeless
> explosion.

In your great grandpa's days they had no idea how to transplant a human heart.

Today we do, being the result of proper education leading to a scientific discovery and
procedure.

Whether everything started from an explosion is conjecture, what we do know is, during
the past two thousand years from the claimed days of Jesus Christ tens of thousand of
human discoveries have prevented many many awful things happening, all in the name of
science, not religion.

Seems God was prepared to allow all those people to suffer, sometimes painful deaths,
whilst waiting for man to make all of his discoveries. Or are gods simply a figment of
man's volatile imagination, provided in many varying levels by the random process of
evolution? Does the bible explain why some are born to become geniuses and others are
born mentally retarded?

Oh and please don't come back with that 'sin' thing - it has been flogged to death for
the whole of my life time.

>
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Hope your post made you feel gratified. My reply did for me, part of life you
> >> >know. There are no gods
> >> >
> >>
> >> Look at those miraculous machines called human beings all around
> >> you: their life, intelligence, consciousness, conscience, ability
> >> to reproduce.
> >
> >Just look [if you have the stamina] at a grossly deformed human fetus that arrives
> >dead and so gross the parents are not allowed to see it. Look at a few of these
> >and you will soon forget the crass nonsense about a god creating we humans and
> >everything else.
>
> Not at all. Because of Adam and Eve's sin, this world is cursed,
> so that believers and non-believers alike are subject to it's
> warped condition.

Groan I spoke too soon. yuo really believe that?

If this world is cursed then get your god to 'uncurse' it

Groan again

>
>
> But God's Blessings rain down on those who believe. We witness it
> first hand daily. Many of us give thanks daily. And those of us
> to trust in His only begotton son Jesus Christ as the only way to
> save ourselves from our inability to keep from sinning will get
> past this warped world into heaven.
>
> >
> >The deformed fetus, of course, is simply the random process of evolution going
> >terribly wrong as it does from time to time.
> >
> >> Then tell yourself they evolved from an explosion
> >> of lifeless materials.
> >
> >If you had told your local vicar three hundred years ago that doctors would one day
> >transplant the human heart from one body to another he would have laughed you to
> >the church door.
>
> And all of that, according to you, is the result of an explosion
> of lifeless matter.

I said, we do not know, anymore than we knew how to transpant a human heart two
thousand years ago. One we have discovered, the other we may never discover as it was
billions of years ago, but we can be certain of one thing, the universe was not formed
by any gods. There were NO gods until man learned to talk and that was some time
during the past million years, which in the evolutionary clock is roughly equivalent to
one second before midnight. What was God doing before then? Sleeping? Waiting for them
to learn a language so they could preach 'His' message? Groan.

> If you stop for even a minute to think of
> that ridiculous notion, if you still can't admit God as your
> creator, worst case you would come back with "ok, maybe it was a
> ridiculous notion that a lifeless explosion created us. Well
> then, I guess I'll just settle on we don't know how it all
> happened."

How can I do that when I have the brain power to look at all these 'gods of man' and
come to the conclusion they are all the same:

Aeron War [goddess] Wales War
Aeval [goddess] Love, Magic. Ireland
Ahura Mazda
Agrona [goddesss] Destroyer of life
Achall [goddess]Earth and Nature; unhappiness. Ireland
Achtan [goddess] Hunting and wild animals. Ireland
Allah
Adsullata [goddess]
Aphrodite, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Abalim[Judaic] Abba Amona[Judaic]
Abraxis[Judaic]
Adam Beliyya'al'[Judaic] Adam Kadmon[Judaic]
Adonai[Judaic] Adonaiel[Judaic]
Aibell [goddess] Beauty; Arts; Magic
Aille [goddess]Justice. Ireland
Aige [goddess] Demi-animals
Aimend [goddess] Sun and Day. Ireland
Aine [goddess] Love and Sexuality
Ailinn [goddess] Love. Ireland
Aidin [goddess] [Aideen] Love and sexuality. Ireland
Aibheaog [goddess] Fire.
Airmed [goddess] Health and healing; Immortality Ireland
Aide [goddess] Water. Ireland - Wife of the Irish god Enna
Artio [goddess] Hunting and Wild Animals Switzerland
Akatriel-Yah[Judaic] Alitha[Judaic]
Alukah(Arpad Yiddish: Estrie)[Judaic] Anafiel[Judaic]
Angels[Judaic] Archons[Judaic] Asherah(Asherah)[Judaic]
Asmodeus(Asmodaios)[Judaic [goddess] Goodness. Ireland
Abaangui Guarani
Aba-khatun [goddess] Russia
Abaris Greek
Abas Greek
Abassi Nigeria/Africa
Abderus Greek
Abeguwo [goddess] Oceania
Abeona [goddess] Roman
Abere [goddess] Oceania
Ab Kin Xoc Maya
Abnoba [goddess] Celtic
Abraxas Roman
Abuk [goddess] Dinka/Africa
Abundantia [goddess] Roman
Acamas Greek
Acantha [goddess] Greek
Acat Maya
Acaviser [goddess] Roman
Acca [goddess] Roman
Acca Larentia [goddess] Roman
Achall [goddess] Irish
Achelois [goddess] Greek
Achelous Greek
Achilles Greek

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one
fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours."
[Stephen Roberts]

> And maybe one day after that, when you allow yourself
> to get more objective, you'll allow your conscience to get a word
> in edgewise and listen to what it's trying to tell you.
> Meanwhile, you keep posting here to convince yourself it's wrong.
> Take a hard look at your own behavior. Trust your conscience.

My concience has nothing to do with following imaginary deities

>
> Take care.

Well you too. It's a big bad world out there

>
>
> >
> >How it all began we may never know but it certainly was not a god that you folks
> >say appeared at one second to midnight if we express the life of this planet with
> >ether period your god has been groveled to and humans had the ability to converse
> >in a language.
> >
> >In a couple of million years perhaps the chimps will have learned how to talk and
> >the we can watch out for the first chimp god to be announced - it will look
> >remarkably chimplike.
> >
> >> Then tell yourself again there is no God.
> >> When actually allowing yourself to think about it, you'll realize
> >> how ridiculous a claim it is to such complex living organisms
> >> were created from a lifeless explosion. If you do this in
> >> sincerity, you'll realize the lie that you've been fed.
> >>
> >> Romans 1:18-23 KJVR For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
> >> against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the
> >> truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of
> >> God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. 20
> >> For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
> >> are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
> >> even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without
> >> excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him
> >> not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
> >> imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22
> >> Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And
> >> changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made
> >> like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> >> creeping things.
> >>
> >> If you have any other questions let me know.
> >
> >no thanks your twisted logic and primitive mythology is nauseating.
> >
 
Gabriel wrote:

> On 24 Nov 2007 23:25:01 -0600, bob young
> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Gabriel wrote:
> >
> >> On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
> >> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Gabriel wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
> >> >> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >> >> >sadistic freak.
> >> >>
> >> >> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
> >> >> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.
> >> >
> >> >Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as indeed does
> >> >more than three quarters of humanity
> >>
> >> What's that: choose who wicked or good we're going to be?
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> Those who reject Him
> >> >> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
> >> >
> >> >Oh dear - how sick.
> >>
> >> Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
> >> the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.
> >>
> >> >Talking of babies, ever seen a photo of one of those grossly
> >> >deformed fetus [human]. Maybe not but they are horrible to see, so horrible the
> >> >parents dont get to see it either before it is cremated.
> >> >
> >> >Are these gross fetus one of 'the wonders of the Lord? Your loving god did that?
> >>
> >> When Adam and Even sinned, death entered the world.
> >
> >I called you sick before and regrettably i have to repeat it
> >
> >Sicko - that is a stupid myth from about a thousand years ago
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Romans 5:12 KJVR Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the
> >> world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for
> >> that all have sinned:
> >>
> >> We are living in a cursed, corrupted world. Believers and
> >> non-believers alike are subject to its corrupted effects.
> >
> >ever since man could use a basic language we have been in that condition. the
> >imagnoary gods came later
> >
> >> But for
> >> those of us who show that we don't deserve the same fate as Adam,
> >> can do so by a show of righteousness through faith in Christ our
> >> Lord.
> >>
> >> Romans 10:4 KJVR For Christ is the end of the law for
> >> righteousness to every one that believeth.
> >>
> >> Romans 10:9-11 KJVR That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
> >> the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
> >> raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the
> >> heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
> >> confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture saith,
> >> Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Of couse not, 'He' does not exist, but the random effects of the evolutionary
> >> >process going terribly wrong does?
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Statistics
> >> >> In 2003 alone, in the United States alone, 854,000 babies were
> >> >> murdered by those who reject God. Extend this world-wide, and you
> >> >> have millions of babies murdered every year.
> >> >
> >> >I know of nothing in the bible condemning abortion. Care to oblige?
> >>
> >> Certainly. Abortion is murder. Do you know of anything in the
> >> Bible that condemns murder?
> >
> >i am asking about abortion and there is nothing.
>
> See what I mean? Right there in the span of one post you
> rationalized away the murder of innocent babies, clearly acting
> like an abortion is not murder. Unbelievable.

Abortion is a difficult issue, even newly borne animals are on occasions killed by their
mothers for some unexplained reason. The subject will be discussed forever, but it has
nothing to do with gods, since were there a god which created us 'in it's image' it would
hardly allow it's creation to destroy 'His' work, would 'He'?

Or is that too logical for you to accept?

>
>
> >
> >do you people EVER get tired of all your contortions?
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> And how fortunate we who live are that our parents didn't murder
> >> us. How unfortunate for millions human beings every year who get
> >> murdered by their parents.

I do believe in most societies such an action is not decreed as murder. This only
applies when someone wishes t make a religious point about a terribly difficult subject

Around 1950 the chinese government made a decree called the One Child Family. as you
know that country already has a huge population [1.3 billion] and recently they used a
computer to estimate how many people they would need to feed had this decree not been
enacted, the figure was in the region of 800 million.

As i said - a difficult subject. If we grow our population to the level where we start
starving to death the world over will your god suddenly put in an appearance and bail us
out? I don't think so - how many lives were lost in the Indian floods last week, over
five thousand the tally is today. Were all these unfortunates sinners?

Cheers


>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Why do they do this? Here are the most popular reasons.
> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortions
> >> >> - Don't want the baby right now. So they murder him.
> >> >> - Don't think we can afford her. So they murder her.
> >> >> - Their relationship's not going well, so they murder him.
> >> >> - It will interfere with their education or job, so they murder
> >> >> her.
> >> >> - They don't want another baby. So they murder him.
> >> >>
> >> >> People who follow God would avoid abortions except in perhaps
> >> >> life-threatening situations. Those who reject God murder and
> >> >> continue to murder innocent babies by the millions every single
> >> >> year.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's human beings that are cold hearted. We can choose to repent
> >> >> from being murderers, adulterers, fornicators, liars and thieves
> >> >> and whatever else, and turn to God to save us from our
> >> >> wickedness, or we can continue on being just as desperately
> >> >> wicked murderers of innocent babies, adulterers, fornicators,
> >> >> liars and thieves and pay the wages for our sins.
> >> >>
> >> >> If God were vengeful, He would reject all of us even though we
> >> >> repent and beg for His mercy. He doesn't reject us.
> >> >>
> >> >> 2 Peter 3:9 KJVR The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
> >> >> as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not
> >> >> willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
> >> >> repentance.
> >> >>
> >> >> He takes any of us who truly repent and ask for forgiveness and
> >> >> mercy. Praise God!
 
Gabriel wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:51:36 +1100, "Andrew W"
> <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
> >"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1jlgk3tif8qbakg1bihcuih03rsnkgag36@4ax.com...
> >> On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
> >> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Gabriel wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
> >>>> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >>>> >sadistic freak.
> >>>>
> >>>> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
> >>>> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.
> >>>
> >>>Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as
> >>>indeed does
> >>>more than three quarters of humanity
> >>
> >> What's that: choose who wicked or good we're going to be?
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> Those who reject Him
> >>>> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
> >>>
> >>>Oh dear - how sick.
> >>
> >> Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
> >> the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.
> >
> >Don't be a spastic. No one has ever had an abortion just for "convenience".
>
> No one? You sure? Look more closely at the reasons given on that
> website. You snipped the most popular ones given by that study,
> and here they are again:
>
> - Don't want the baby right now. So they murder him. It's a shame
> their baby didn't come at a convenient time.
> - Don't think we can afford her. So they murder her. How
> inconvenient they don't think they can afford her. So they murder
> her.
> - Their relationship's not going well, so they murder him. How
> inconvenient to have a baby when the relationship's not going as
> well as they would like. So they murder her.
> - It will interfere with their education or job, so they murder
> her. How inconvenient that education would have to take a back
> seat to the life of an innocent child. Hey, my education is more
> important, they say, and they murder her.
>
> It is quite dishonest of you to claim these babies are never
> murdered out of convenience, when the vast majority of baby boys
> and baby girls are murdered for exactly that reason!
>
> >And abortion of a foetus is not equal to "murder" of "babies".
>
> Does admitting it's a baby make you feel uncomfortable? It
> should! Does calling it a fetus make you feel ok to murder him or
> her? That's amazing! You're yet another person that rationalizes
> away the murder of innocent babies. How tragic that you think
> it's ok to do so. That's scary.
>
> Some think it sounds bad what God does to us sinners. But when
> you continue to witness first hand out wicked and murderous we
> can be, the fact is every one of us deserves it.
>
> Take care. I hope you one day you at least realize it's not a
> good thing to murder babies, whether you believe in God or not.

Legally abortion os not classified as murdering babies, As you full well know.

The matter of abortion has nothing to do with gods. It relates entirely to the
mind of each particular mother and how she reacts to a situation. no gods
involves as they do not alter the mother's decision.

You are 'Using' abortion as a prosetalysing tool, which is ungracious.

>
>
> >
> >Your distortion and twisting of information shows how much of a wild-eyed
> >cultist you really are.
> >
> >But when it comes to your cruel and callous Bible God, well then its
> >perfectly alright to torture and kill children and adults.
> >Is a foetus worth more than a fully born child?
 
"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tdfpk3phb98nvigh7ksi2ei2iokoq462dq@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:51:36 +1100, "Andrew W"
> <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
>>"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1jlgk3tif8qbakg1bihcuih03rsnkgag36@4ax.com...
>>> On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
>>> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Those who reject Him
>>>>> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
>>>>
>>>>Oh dear - how sick.
>>>
>>> Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
>>> the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.
>>
>>Don't be a spastic. No one has ever had an abortion just for
>>"convenience".
>
> No one? You sure? Look more closely at the reasons given on that
> website. You snipped the most popular ones given by that study,
> and here they are again:
>
> - Don't want the baby right now. So they murder him. It's a shame
> their baby didn't come at a convenient time.
> - Don't think we can afford her. So they murder her. How
> inconvenient they don't think they can afford her. So they murder
> her.
> - Their relationship's not going well, so they murder him. How
> inconvenient to have a baby when the relationship's not going as
> well as they would like. So they murder her.
> - It will interfere with their education or job, so they murder
> her. How inconvenient that education would have to take a back
> seat to the life of an innocent child. Hey, my education is more
> important, they say, and they murder her.
>
> It is quite dishonest of you to claim these babies are never
> murdered out of convenience, when the vast majority of baby boys
> and baby girls are murdered for exactly that reason!
>
>>And abortion of a foetus is not equal to "murder" of "babies".
>
> Does admitting it's a baby make you feel uncomfortable? It
> should! Does calling it a fetus make you feel ok to murder him or
> her? That's amazing! You're yet another person that rationalizes
> away the murder of innocent babies. How tragic that you think
> it's ok to do so. That's scary.
>
> Some think it sounds bad what God does to us sinners. But when
> you continue to witness first hand out wicked and murderous we
> can be, the fact is every one of us deserves it.
>
> Take care. I hope you one day you at least realize it's not a
> good thing to murder babies, whether you believe in God or not.

I noticed that you prominently added your own emotionally charged comments.
The "murder" accusation is your emotional view and others of your kind.
Lets look at it again with a wider and more mature perspective.

25.5% Want to postpone childbearing ------ the child will suffer if the
parents-to-be are not yet ready and skilled enough to properly raise a
child.
21.3% Cannot afford a baby ------ the child will suffer if there is not
enough money for food, provisions and education for the child.
14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy ------
children suffer the most when relationships/marriages break down.
12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy ------ the child
will suffer if the parents-to-be are not yet ready and skilled enough to
properly raise a child.
10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job ------ the child will
suffer if the parents-to-be are not educated enough or don't have steady
income.
7.9% Want no (more) children ------ the child will suffer if the household
is already stressed to its limits.
3.3% Risk to fetal health ------ the child could be born deformed in which
case it will suffer horribly all its life.
2.8% Risk to maternal health ------ the child will suffer if the mother is
too sick to feed/raise child.
2.1% Other

These sufferings last for decades or lifetimes.
Suffering during an abortion lasts only 5-10 minutes.
Now I'm not saying I support abortion, I just see the bigger picture.
If an unexpected and unwanted new addition comes then options have to be
looked at without getting all emotional and googly eyed.
The other thing is that this world is already badly over populated.
And the Bible God already places humans at a very low value and throws them
on the fire like its spring cleaning time so why are you so upset about what
we humans do when we're stuck between a rock and a hard place?
Its all about emotions.

--
Andrew W.

"You must unlearn what you have learned" ~ Yoda

Channelled lessons about ET's, ascended masters like Jesus Christ, spirit
guides, earth changes.
http://www.spiritnexus.com/audio/channeling/index.htm

The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm

Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.acim.org/

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
 
On 27 Nov 2007 22:04:01 -0600, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:

>
>
>Gabriel wrote:
>
>> On 24 Nov 2007 23:25:01 -0600, bob young
>> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Gabriel wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
>> >> <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Gabriel wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
>> >> >> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>> >> >> >sadistic freak.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
>> >> >> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.
>> >> >
>> >> >Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as indeed does
>> >> >more than three quarters of humanity
>> >>
>> >> What's that: choose who wicked or good we're going to be?
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >> Those who reject Him
>> >> >> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
>> >> >
>> >> >Oh dear - how sick.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
>> >> the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.
>> >>
>> >> >Talking of babies, ever seen a photo of one of those grossly
>> >> >deformed fetus [human]. Maybe not but they are horrible to see, so horrible the
>> >> >parents dont get to see it either before it is cremated.
>> >> >
>> >> >Are these gross fetus one of 'the wonders of the Lord? Your loving god did that?
>> >>
>> >> When Adam and Even sinned, death entered the world.
>> >
>> >I called you sick before and regrettably i have to repeat it
>> >
>> >Sicko - that is a stupid myth from about a thousand years ago
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Romans 5:12 KJVR Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the
>> >> world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for
>> >> that all have sinned:
>> >>
>> >> We are living in a cursed, corrupted world. Believers and
>> >> non-believers alike are subject to its corrupted effects.
>> >
>> >ever since man could use a basic language we have been in that condition. the
>> >imagnoary gods came later
>> >
>> >> But for
>> >> those of us who show that we don't deserve the same fate as Adam,
>> >> can do so by a show of righteousness through faith in Christ our
>> >> Lord.
>> >>
>> >> Romans 10:4 KJVR For Christ is the end of the law for
>> >> righteousness to every one that believeth.
>> >>
>> >> Romans 10:9-11 KJVR That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
>> >> the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
>> >> raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the
>> >> heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
>> >> confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture saith,
>> >> Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Of couse not, 'He' does not exist, but the random effects of the evolutionary
>> >> >process going terribly wrong does?
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Statistics
>> >> >> In 2003 alone, in the United States alone, 854,000 babies were
>> >> >> murdered by those who reject God. Extend this world-wide, and you
>> >> >> have millions of babies murdered every year.
>> >> >
>> >> >I know of nothing in the bible condemning abortion. Care to oblige?
>> >>
>> >> Certainly. Abortion is murder. Do you know of anything in the
>> >> Bible that condemns murder?
>> >
>> >i am asking about abortion and there is nothing.
>>
>> See what I mean? Right there in the span of one post you
>> rationalized away the murder of innocent babies, clearly acting
>> like an abortion is not murder. Unbelievable.
>
>Abortion is a difficult issue,

It's not difficult for those who realize murdering an innocent
baby, stopping a beating heart of a living human being, for a
reason other than keeping yourself from dying because of it, is
evil no matter what his or her age. It's only a difficult issue
for those who are capable of rationalizing murder as being ok if
it prevents that baby from inconveniencing their job, their
relationship, their lifestyle. Translation: people who reject God
have a hard time stopping themselves from murdering a baby for
selfish reasons, which is what makes it a "difficult issue".

>even newly borne animals are on occasions killed by their
>mothers for some unexplained reason.

So your method of rationalizing it is "look - animals do it! Must
be ok for us too!" I can see why you think the issue is so
difficult for you. Listen to yourself: you're saying it's a
difficult thing to get yourself to stop from murdering an
innocent baby. You're pointing out to how animals do it to as
part of the reason why. Thank you for proving my point. Man is
quite wicked, and those who truly follow God would not be so evil
as to find it "so difficult" to keep from murdering their own
baby boy or girl.

>The subject will be discussed forever, but it has
>nothing to do with gods, since were there a god which created us 'in it's image' it would
>hardly allow it's creation to destroy 'His' work, would 'He'?
>
>Or is that too logical for you to accept?
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >do you people EVER get tired of all your contortions?
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> And how fortunate we who live are that our parents didn't murder
>> >> us. How unfortunate for millions human beings every year who get
>> >> murdered by their parents.
>
>I do believe in most societies such an action is not decreed as murder. This only
>applies when someone wishes t make a religious point about a terribly difficult subject
>
>Around 1950 the chinese government made a decree called the One Child Family. as you
>know that country already has a huge population [1.3 billion] and recently they used a
>computer to estimate how many people they would need to feed had this decree not been
>enacted, the figure was in the region of 800 million.
>
>As i said - a difficult subject. If we grow our population to the level where we start
>starving to death the world over will your god suddenly put in an appearance and bail us
>out? I don't think so - how many lives were lost in the Indian floods last week, over
>five thousand the tally is today. Were all these unfortunates sinners?
>
>Cheers
>
>
>>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Why do they do this? Here are the most popular reasons.
>> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortions
>> >> >> - Don't want the baby right now. So they murder him.
>> >> >> - Don't think we can afford her. So they murder her.
>> >> >> - Their relationship's not going well, so they murder him.
>> >> >> - It will interfere with their education or job, so they murder
>> >> >> her.
>> >> >> - They don't want another baby. So they murder him.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> People who follow God would avoid abortions except in perhaps
>> >> >> life-threatening situations. Those who reject God murder and
>> >> >> continue to murder innocent babies by the millions every single
>> >> >> year.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It's human beings that are cold hearted. We can choose to repent
>> >> >> from being murderers, adulterers, fornicators, liars and thieves
>> >> >> and whatever else, and turn to God to save us from our
>> >> >> wickedness, or we can continue on being just as desperately
>> >> >> wicked murderers of innocent babies, adulterers, fornicators,
>> >> >> liars and thieves and pay the wages for our sins.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If God were vengeful, He would reject all of us even though we
>> >> >> repent and beg for His mercy. He doesn't reject us.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2 Peter 3:9 KJVR The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
>> >> >> as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not
>> >> >> willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
>> >> >> repentance.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> He takes any of us who truly repent and ask for forgiveness and
>> >> >> mercy. Praise God!
 

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