Religious Martyrs

[Andrew]

On 2007-11-24 00:15:00 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:

>
> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> news:2007112323373075249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> On 2007-11-23 22:04:20 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>
>>>
>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>> news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold
> hearted
>>>>>>> sadistic freak.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>>>>>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>>>>>
>>>>> Your all powerful God permited it.
>>>>
>>>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
>>>> what people do.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
>>
>> No - that doesn't follow at all, because I did not demur from your
>> assertion that God permitted it. You really have no grasp of logic or
>> reason at all, have you? Are you really saying people are omnipotent,
>> by the way?
>>
>
> All powerfull, means that (all). No boundries. Able to change (stop-start)
> all.

And you think human beings fit that description? So, to throw your own
argument back at you, are you saying that humanity is composed of cold
sadistic freaks?

 

[Andrew]

On 2007-11-24 03:57:02 +0000, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> said:

>
>
> Andrew wrote:
>
>> On 2007-11-23 22:04:20 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>
>>>
>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>> news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>>>>>> sadistic freak.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>>>>>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>>>>>
>>>>> Your all powerful God permited it.
>>>>
>>>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
>>>> what people do.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
>>
>> No - that doesn't follow at all, because I did not demur from your
>> assertion that God permitted it. You really have no grasp of logic or
>> reason at all, have you? Are you really saying people are omnipotent,
>> by the way?
>
> ROFL A religionists talking about Logic . Oh my what next !
>
> ROFL

Something even weirder? An atheist applying it, perhaps.

 

[Andrew]

On 2007-11-24 03:56:02 +0000, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> said:

>
>
> Andrew wrote:
>
>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>
>>>
>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>>>> sadistic freak.
>>>>
>>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>>>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>>>
>>> Your all powerful God permited it.
>>
>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
>> what people do.
>
> Eeerrm I think he eas being sarcastic !
>
> but of course there's no humoiur in religion is there, too human

Sad thing is, Bob, I don't think he is being sarcastic. See the
follow-up posts for confirmation.

 

[Andrew]

On 2007-11-24 03:54:02 +0000, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> said:

>
>
> Andrew wrote:
>
>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>
>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>> sadistic freak.
>>
>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>
> There are no wars or actions in the name of atheism.
>
> Because atheism was banned along with ALL organizations in early communist
> regimes it does not mean they killed in the name of atheists.

This is what makes atheists like you dangerous, Bob. See, we
god-botherers, if we're smart, know the damage that has been caused in
the name of our beliefs. We face it - it pains us and reminds us that
we have to be on our guard against being caught up in such things. You
are so far into denial that you don't have such safeguards. Face
reality Bob - it hurts, but it's necessary.

>
> Atheism is simply a rejection of gods and nothing more.
>
> But of course, since you cannot produce your gods you cling to any little thing
> that can be used to propagate 'him'
>
> Keep trying - you will be 'trying' right up to the day you die, like
> your grandpa
> did.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Religious Martyrs
>>>
>>> David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
>>> o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard
>>> reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica
>>> and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page
>>> [http://gem-werc.org/gd/gd16.pdf] estimating the number of martyrs since the
>>> origin of each religion:
>>> + Muslim martyrs: 80M
>>> + Christian martyrs: 70M
>>> # 20th Century: 45.4M
>>> # At the hands of...
>>> Atheists: 31,689,000
>>> Muslims 9,121,000
>>> Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
>>> Christians: 5,538,000
>>> Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
>>> Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
>>> Hindus: 676,000
>>> Zoroastrians: 384,000
>>> + Hindu martyrs: 20M
>>> + Buddhist martyrs: 10M
>>> + Jewish: 9M
>>> + Ethnoreligious: 6M
>>> + Sikh: 2M
>>> + Baha'i: 1M
>>> + Other religious martyrs: 5M
>>> o The book defines martyrs as
>>> 1. Believers in Christ (U.O.N.)
>>> 2. Who have lost their lives
>>> 3. Prematurely
>>> 4. In situations of witness
>>> 5. As a result of human hostility.
>>> o World Christian Trends by Barrett et al: Apparently this book
>>> gives more details about martyrdom statistics, but so far, I haven't found
>>> it in a library (even our local seminary), and I can't afford to buy it
>>> myself. (But see http://gem-werc.org/gd/listings.pdf) Here are some of the
>>> major episodes that I've been able to scrounge from websites and articles.
>>> Some of my sources have been somewhat ambiguous in their wording, so I
>>> honestly don't know whether they mean to say that the Amerindians and
>>> Baghdadians, for example, are meant as Christian martyrs or Muslim or
>>> Shamanist, or whether the various subclasses who died at Soviet or Nazi
>>> hands are already included in the largest number or meant to be added to it.
>>> + Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
>>> # 1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
>>> # 1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
>>> # Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs
>>> (1929-37)
>>> # Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
>>> + By Mongols
>>> # 1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M
>>> martyrs
>>> # 1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
>>> # 1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
>>> # 1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong
>>> Nestorians: 4M martyrs
>>> + Conquistadors kill 15 million Amerindians: 2M martyrs
>>> (1560)
>>> + Christians executed by Nazis in death camps: 1M
>>> # Nazis exterminate 0.5M Gypsies
>>> + Khmer Rouge slaughter 2M (1975)
>>> + Kurds massacre 20,000 Nestorians (1843)
>>> + Massacre of 40,000 Vietnamese Catholics (1970)
>>> The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
>>> o 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.
>>> o citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
>>> + ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural
>>> Revolution.
>>> + ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total
>>> k.)
>>> + Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to
>>> their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)
>>> The Ottawa Citizen (6 Feb. 1993)
>>> o Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It
>>> + 40M Christians martyred throughout history.
>>> + ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists
>>> + ca. 8M k. by other Christians

 

[Andrew]

On 2007-11-24 06:13:20 +0000, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> said:

> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>
>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>> sadistic freak.
>>
>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now, you
>> were discussing sadism and cruety...
>
> Wrong.
> No one has ever committed mass murder in the name of atheism. Politics and
> other causes yes, but not purely in the name of atheism.


Oh - that's OK then. Atheists slaughtering religionists for their
beliefs can be written off Atheism's books because it's 'politics'.
Those 31, 689, 000 will rest easier for that.

>
> And atheism is not a religion. There are very few people in the world who
> campaign for atheism religiously. Not enough to form a religion.

So you're not a religion because you don't have the numbers?

 

[Andrew]

On 2007-11-24 03:50:01 +0000, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> said:

>
>
> Ghamph wrote:
>
>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>> sadistic freak.
>
> Frankly what you list here [by the way you were two humans too many!] are
> normal behavioral results of human activity.
>
> We must remember that we lived as savages for over two million year largely
> without any change of life style, left to fend for ourselves, no laws, nothing
> but brute force, no wonder we still keep on killing each other, it is
> instinctive.
>
> Problem is for the first time we now have the weapons that can destroy the
> whole of humanity.
>
> I wonder if we will manage it?
>
> If we do the chances are it will be in the name of some god or other, the
> Christian one, or the other imaginary deity....... Allah.

Chances are, if history is anything to go by, it'll be over politics.

>
>>
>>
>> Religious Martyrs
>>
>> David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
>> o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard
>> reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica
>> and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page
>> [http://gem-werc.org/gd/gd16.pdf] estimating the number of martyrs since the
>> origin of each religion:
>> + Muslim martyrs: 80M
>> + Christian martyrs: 70M
>> # 20th Century: 45.4M
>> # At the hands of...
>> Atheists: 31,689,000
>> Muslims 9,121,000
>> Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
>> Christians: 5,538,000
>> Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
>> Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
>> Hindus: 676,000
>> Zoroastrians: 384,000
>> + Hindu martyrs: 20M
>> + Buddhist martyrs: 10M
>> + Jewish: 9M
>> + Ethnoreligious: 6M
>> + Sikh: 2M
>> + Baha'i: 1M
>> + Other religious martyrs: 5M
>> o The book defines martyrs as
>> 1. Believers in Christ (U.O.N.)
>> 2. Who have lost their lives
>> 3. Prematurely
>> 4. In situations of witness
>> 5. As a result of human hostility.
>> o World Christian Trends by Barrett et al: Apparently this book
>> gives more details about martyrdom statistics, but so far, I haven't found
>> it in a library (even our local seminary), and I can't afford to buy it
>> myself. (But see http://gem-werc.org/gd/listings.pdf) Here are some of the
>> major episodes that I've been able to scrounge from websites and articles.
>> Some of my sources have been somewhat ambiguous in their wording, so I
>> honestly don't know whether they mean to say that the Amerindians and
>> Baghdadians, for example, are meant as Christian martyrs or Muslim or
>> Shamanist, or whether the various subclasses who died at Soviet or Nazi
>> hands are already included in the largest number or meant to be added to it.
>> + Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
>> # 1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
>> # 1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
>> # Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs
>> (1929-37)
>> # Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
>> + By Mongols
>> # 1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M
>> martyrs
>> # 1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
>> # 1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
>> # 1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong
>> Nestorians: 4M martyrs
>> + Conquistadors kill 15 million Amerindians: 2M martyrs
>> (1560)
>> + Christians executed by Nazis in death camps: 1M
>> # Nazis exterminate 0.5M Gypsies
>> + Khmer Rouge slaughter 2M (1975)
>> + Kurds massacre 20,000 Nestorians (1843)
>> + Massacre of 40,000 Vietnamese Catholics (1970)
>> The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
>> o 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.
>> o citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
>> + ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural
>> Revolution.
>> + ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total
>> k.)
>> + Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to
>> their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)
>> The Ottawa Citizen (6 Feb. 1993)
>> o Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It
>> + 40M Christians martyred throughout history.
>> + ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists
>> + ca. 8M k. by other Christians

 

[Andrew W]

"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2007112410364727544-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2007-11-24 06:13:20 +0000, "Andrew W"
> <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> said:
>
>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>
>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>>> sadistic freak.
>>>
>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now, you
>>> were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>
>> Wrong.
>> No one has ever committed mass murder in the name of atheism. Politics
>> and
>> other causes yes, but not purely in the name of atheism.
>
>
> Oh - that's OK then. Atheists slaughtering religionists for their beliefs
> can be written off Atheism's books because it's 'politics'. Those 31, 689,
> 000 will rest easier for that.

Name one war that was fought in the name of not wanting to believe in any
God.
You can't, because there is no motivation great enough in atheism.to kill
anyone.
You can call political tyrants atheists if you want, but they are political
tyrants first, and atheists only second (that's if they were atheists which
some weren't).
Judeo Christian theists in our history have often not been much better in
the peace and harmony department.
In fact even today many Christians support war.

>
>>
>> And atheism is not a religion. There are very few people in the world who
>> campaign for atheism religiously. Not enough to form a religion.
>
> So you're not a religion because you don't have the numbers?

That's right. A religion is a religion because of the number of followers it
gets together into an organisation.

 

[Ralph]

"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2007112410364727544-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2007-11-24 06:13:20 +0000, "Andrew W"
> <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> said:
>
>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>
>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>>> sadistic freak.
>>>
>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now, you
>>> were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>
>> Wrong.
>> No one has ever committed mass murder in the name of atheism. Politics
>> and
>> other causes yes, but not purely in the name of atheism.
>
>
> Oh - that's OK then. Atheists slaughtering religionists for their beliefs
> can be written off Atheism's books because it's 'politics'. Those 31, 689,
> 000 will rest easier for that.

You have evidence that it was in the name of atheism? I don't think you do
but will be more than happy to apologize if you do have evidence. Either put
up or shut up, Andrew.


>> And atheism is not a religion. There are very few people in the world who
>> campaign for atheism religiously. Not enough to form a religion.
>
> So you're not a religion because you don't have the numbers?

Educated persons around the world know that atheism isn't a religion. Where
does that leave you?

 

[Gabriel]

On 23 Nov 2007 22:02:02 -0600, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:

>
>
>Gabriel wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:01:42 -0500, "Ghamph"
>> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>> >sadistic freak.
>>
>> No, he allows us to choose how wicked or good we're going to be.
>> If we're going to follow Him or reject Him.
>
>Ha Ha we could do that just as well all on our own without any god, as indeed does
>more than three quarters of humanity

What's that: choose who wicked or good we're going to be?

>
>> Those who reject Him
>> clearly show themselves to be murderers of innocent babies.
>
>Oh dear - how sick.

Yes, sick indeed. People murder their babies the vast majority of
the time for no good reason other than that of convenience.

>Talking of babies, ever seen a photo of one of those grossly
>deformed fetus [human]. Maybe not but they are horrible to see, so horrible the
>parents dont get to see it either before it is cremated.
>
>Are these gross fetus one of 'the wonders of the Lord? Your loving god did that?

When Adam and Even sinned, death entered the world.

Romans 5:12 KJVR Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the
world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for
that all have sinned:

We are living in a cursed, corrupted world. Believers and
non-believers alike are subject to its corrupted effects. But for
those of us who show that we don't deserve the same fate as Adam,
can do so by a show of righteousness through faith in Christ our
Lord.

Romans 10:4 KJVR For Christ is the end of the law for
righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 10:9-11 KJVR That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the
heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture saith,
Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

>
>Of couse not, 'He' does not exist, but the random effects of the evolutionary
>process going terribly wrong does?
>
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Statistics
>> In 2003 alone, in the United States alone, 854,000 babies were
>> murdered by those who reject God. Extend this world-wide, and you
>> have millions of babies murdered every year.
>
>I know of nothing in the bible condemning abortion. Care to oblige?

Certainly. Abortion is murder. Do you know of anything in the
Bible that condemns murder?

And how fortunate we who live are that our parents didn't murder
us. How unfortunate for millions human beings every year who get
murdered by their parents.

>
>>
>>
>> Why do they do this? Here are the most popular reasons.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortions
>> - Don't want the baby right now. So they murder him.
>> - Don't think we can afford her. So they murder her.
>> - Their relationship's not going well, so they murder him.
>> - It will interfere with their education or job, so they murder
>> her.
>> - They don't want another baby. So they murder him.
>>
>> People who follow God would avoid abortions except in perhaps
>> life-threatening situations. Those who reject God murder and
>> continue to murder innocent babies by the millions every single
>> year.
>>
>> It's human beings that are cold hearted. We can choose to repent
>> from being murderers, adulterers, fornicators, liars and thieves
>> and whatever else, and turn to God to save us from our
>> wickedness, or we can continue on being just as desperately
>> wicked murderers of innocent babies, adulterers, fornicators,
>> liars and thieves and pay the wages for our sins.
>>
>> If God were vengeful, He would reject all of us even though we
>> repent and beg for His mercy. He doesn't reject us.
>>
>> 2 Peter 3:9 KJVR The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
>> as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not
>> willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
>> repentance.
>>
>> He takes any of us who truly repent and ask for forgiveness and
>> mercy. Praise God!

 

[Andrew]

On 2007-11-24 16:29:27 +0000, "Ralph" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> said:

>
> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> news:2007112410364727544-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> On 2007-11-24 06:13:20 +0000, "Andrew W"
>> <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> said:
>>
>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>>>> sadistic freak.
>>>>
>>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now, you
>>>> were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>>
>>> Wrong.
>>> No one has ever committed mass murder in the name of atheism. Politics
>>> and
>>> other causes yes, but not purely in the name of atheism.
>>
>>
>> Oh - that's OK then. Atheists slaughtering religionists for their beliefs
>> can be written off Atheism's books because it's 'politics'. Those 31, 689,
>> 000 will rest easier for that.
>
> You have evidence that it was in the name of atheism? I don't think you do
> but will be more than happy to apologize if you do have evidence. Either put
> up or shut up, Andrew.
>
>
>>> And atheism is not a religion. There are very few people in the world who
>>> campaign for atheism religiously. Not enough to form a religion.
>>
>> So you're not a religion because you don't have the numbers?
>
> Educated persons around the world know that atheism isn't a religion. Where
> does that leave you?

No. Atheists around the world state that it is not a religion because
it fits their purposes to do so. It allows them to glide dishonestly
between "I don't believe..." and "I believe there is no..." without
having to recognise that there is a difference.

 

[Gabriel]

On 23 Nov 2007 22:08:01 -0600, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:

>
>
>Gabriel wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:04:20 -0500, "Ghamph"
>> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>> >news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> >> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>> >> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> >> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>> >> >>> sadistic freak.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>> >> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>> >> >>
>> >> > Your all powerful God permited it.
>> >>
>> >> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
>> >> what people do.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
>> >
>>
>> If God wanted to, he could make all of us mindless robots since
>> so many of us are determined to be so wicked. He doesn't want
>> that.
>
>Marvelous, here we have a claimed deity who's followers insist created the
>universe, this planet and ourselves, but this magnificent power house has to
>rely on you to propagate it's thoughts and ideas? GROAN

Key flaw in your thought is "has" to. God doesn't -have- to do
anything. But it's by faith that imputes righteousness, and it's
not faith if God was to appear in front of us and appeal to our
ego in order for us to believe.

>
>Does this not shout aloud "Man made his gods and man manipulates them for his
>own gratification" ?

No, it sounds more like man making excuses so He can remain
separate from God and no be forced to love their neighbor like
themselves.

>
>Indeed it does and not surprising, since the evolutionary process relies
>heavily on 'gratification' to motivate every living thing on this planet.

Yes, and wanting to reject God is another such motivation driven
by gratification.

>
>> He wants people that will -choose- to worship Him. And I
>> don't know about you, but speaking for me, I'd prefer to have
>> free will and make my own choice.
>>
>> God not using His powers in way we believe He should does not
>> equate to Him not being all-powerful.
>
>Gods do nothing apart from infesting the minds of otherwise intelligent human
>beings and the sad part of it is they do it to one another - for gratification,
>of course.

You mentioned evolutionary process. You want to talk about
gratification .. If you saw what looked like a robot made out of
materials you had never seen before, that spoke like a human but
seemed devoid of emotion, you would wonder who created it. If I
said it is the offspring from another much like it that just
evolved from an explosion in my great, great, great
grandfathers's back yard, you'd call me a liar and demand to know
who created it.

And yet we're infinitely more complex and superior creations,
with superior intelligence, conscience, consciousness, emotions,
ability to reproduce life, and instead of wondering who made you,
you now just assume we evolved from a lifeless explosion by
random miraculous chance. To teach that illogical nonsense to
young minds is to infest otherwise intelligent human beings. And
the sad part is, the only reason some people cling to this
imaginary tale with such fervor is to have a means to reject God.
Now that's gratification.


>
>Hope your post made you feel gratified. My reply did for me, part of life you
>know. There are no gods
>

Look at those miraculous machines called human beings all around
you: their life, intelligence, consciousness, conscience, ability
to reproduce. Then tell yourself they evolved from an explosion
of lifeless materials. Then tell yourself again there is no God.
When actually allowing yourself to think about it, you'll realize
how ridiculous a claim it is to such complex living organisms
were created from a lifeless explosion. If you do this in
sincerity, you'll realize the lie that you've been fed.

Romans 1:18-23 KJVR For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the
truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of
God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. 20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without
excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him
not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And
changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made
like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
creeping things.

If you have any other questions let me know.

 

[Ghamph]

"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2007112410270950073-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2007-11-24 00:15:00 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>
> >
> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> > news:2007112323373075249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> On 2007-11-23 22:04:20 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >>>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >>>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold
> > hearted
> >>>>>>> sadistic freak.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists.
Now,
> >>>>>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Your all powerful God permited it.
> >>>>
> >>>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
> >>>> what people do.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
> >>
> >> No - that doesn't follow at all, because I did not demur from your
> >> assertion that God permitted it. You really have no grasp of logic or
> >> reason at all, have you? Are you really saying people are omnipotent,
> >> by the way?
> >>
> >
> > All powerfull, means that (all). No boundries. Able to change
(stop-start)
> > all.
>
> And you think human beings fit that description? So, to throw your own
> argument back at you, are you saying that humanity is composed of cold
> sadistic freaks?
>
You said that people are more powerful than God, since it's their fault that
the killing occurred.

So, if god could have stopped it he would have. Being full of grace, and a
loving caring parent he would certainly not have permitted his children to
butcher each other.

So, if an all powerful creature exists or not it would mean nothing, and
amount to nothing in retrospect, if that power is never used.

 

[Ghamph]

"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2007112410270950073-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2007-11-24 00:15:00 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>
> >
> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> > news:2007112323373075249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> On 2007-11-23 22:04:20 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >>>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >>>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold
> > hearted
> >>>>>>> sadistic freak.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists.
Now,
> >>>>>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Your all powerful God permited it.
> >>>>
> >>>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
> >>>> what people do.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
> >>
> >> No - that doesn't follow at all, because I did not demur from your
> >> assertion that God permitted it. You really have no grasp of logic or
> >> reason at all, have you? Are you really saying people are omnipotent,
> >> by the way?
> >>
> >
> > All powerfull, means that (all). No boundries. Able to change
(stop-start)
> > all.
>
> And you think human beings fit that description? So, to throw your own
> argument back at you, are you saying that humanity is composed of cold
> sadistic freaks?
>

Well dah, you said it "Don't blame God for....." human freaks.
Dead Christians;
# At the hands of...
Atheists: 31,689,000
Muslims 9,121,000
Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
Christians: 5,538,000
Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
Hindus: 676,000
Zoroastrians: 384,000

 

[Andrew W]

"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2007112417070327544-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> On 2007-11-24 16:29:27 +0000, "Ralph" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> said:
>
>>
>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>> news:2007112410364727544-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>> On 2007-11-24 06:13:20 +0000, "Andrew W"
>>> <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> said:
>>>
>>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
>>>>>> sadistic freak.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>>>>> you
>>>>> were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>>>
>>>> Wrong.
>>>> No one has ever committed mass murder in the name of atheism. Politics
>>>> and
>>>> other causes yes, but not purely in the name of atheism.
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh - that's OK then. Atheists slaughtering religionists for their
>>> beliefs
>>> can be written off Atheism's books because it's 'politics'. Those 31,
>>> 689,
>>> 000 will rest easier for that.
>>
>> You have evidence that it was in the name of atheism? I don't think you
>> do
>> but will be more than happy to apologize if you do have evidence. Either
>> put
>> up or shut up, Andrew.
>>
>>
>>>> And atheism is not a religion. There are very few people in the world
>>>> who
>>>> campaign for atheism religiously. Not enough to form a religion.
>>>
>>> So you're not a religion because you don't have the numbers?
>>
>> Educated persons around the world know that atheism isn't a religion.
>> Where
>> does that leave you?
>
> No. Atheists around the world state that it is not a religion because it
> fits their purposes to do so. It allows them to glide dishonestly between
> "I don't believe..." and "I believe there is no..." without having to
> recognise that there is a difference.

There's a difference between "I believe there is no..." and being a fully
fledged religion.
Ever heard of passionate expression of one's views in the face of
unsubstantiated and in some cases irrational claims of others? It happens
all the time.
An atheist's passion is equal in proportion to the amount of proselytising
that evangelists are doing in a given area.
The moment the proselytisers stop so do the atheists.

--
Andrew W.

"You must unlearn what you have learned" ~ Yoda

Channelled lessons about ET's, ascended masters like Jesus Christ, spirit
guides, earth changes.
http://www.spiritnexus.com/audio/channeling/index.htm

The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm

Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.acim.org/

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner

 

[Gabriel]

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:02:43 +1100, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:

>"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:8s7fk3l45komt1jv6lvj92m9kmvvrmfdl6@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:04:20 -0500, "Ghamph"
>> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>>news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>>> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold
>>>> >>> hearted
>>>> >>> sadistic freak.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
>>>> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
>>>> >>
>>>> > Your all powerful God permited it.
>>>>
>>>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
>>>> what people do.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
>>>
>>
>> If God wanted to, he could make all of us mindless robots since
>> so many of us are determined to be so wicked.
>
>Most people who reject the Christian God are not wicked.
>Wicked people are in a minority,

Really? It's only a few people that are murdering millions of
babies every year? It's only a few people that are committing
adultery? Stealing? Lying? Fornication? Adultery? If we can't
even be honest about how wicked we are, we have no chance of
bettering ourselves.

>except if you believe that the six o'clock
>news and the biblical stories are the only realities.
>And as for being a robot, Christians are given a choice, that's true, but
>only to become the Bible God's robot. Same result.

Loving others as yourself is hardly being a robot -- it's not an
easy choice to make, as it goes against human nature to be all
about "me me me!". Being a slave to sin is more like being a
robot -- because it takes no effort to be selfish.

>
>> He doesn't want
>> that. He wants people that will -choose- to worship Him.
>
>What about those who are not worshipping types?
>Not everyone is a born worshipper. In fact most are not.

You seem to think worshipping God involves being on your knees at
all times. Doing his will is a form of worship. Loving others as
yourself is a form of worship. Reading His Word is a form of
worship. Thinking of him when you're doing activities is a form
of worship. Singing and listening to songs of praise is a form of
worship. And the list goes on.

>Why do you believe the Creator enjoys being worshipped and praised so much?
>Is he obsessed with himself?

Why do you believe there are people who get created by God but
refuse to thank him for doing so? That want to continue to reject
him and be a slave to sin instead?


>
>> And I
>> don't know about you, but speaking for me, I'd prefer to have
>> free will and make my own choice.
>
>What choice? Worship me or die?
>If a gun is put to your head (which it has) then of course your choice is
>better.
>But why buy into such a charade in the first place?

The choice is not worship or die. The choice is we've broken
God's Holy Law. There's a punishment for that (much like there's
a punishment for breaking man's law). That punishment must be
paid. You can either choose to pay it yourself, ending up in
hell, or you can choose to receive the free gift that Christ
offers by paying the price for your sins on the cross.

>
>>
>> God not using His powers in way we believe He should does not
>> equate to Him not being all-powerful.
>
>But he doesn't use his powers at all.

See you don't know this. We see his power almost every day in our
lives! If his power keeps some tragedies from befalling you,
you'd never know it because the tragedy never occurred. But for
those of us who've received Christ, we can see his blessings at
work in our lives every day! Praise God!


>At least not since the biblical times.
>Maybe he's gone.
>

2 Peter 3:8-10 KJVR But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one
thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning
his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to
us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should
come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a
thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with
a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the
earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

He hasn't gone anywhere. But many people are certainly trying
hard to remove Him. Just look at how much they're trying to get
rid of any evidence of Him from our schools. At the same time,
look at the growing number of tragedies that befall these same
schools. They remove God, then wonder why His blessings are being
removed as well.

Praise our creator!

 

[Andrew W]

"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:k48hk3dg37dg440l8dbfr94e4v7gc2n51l@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:02:43 +1100, "Andrew W"
> <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
>>"Gabriel" <gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:8s7fk3l45komt1jv6lvj92m9kmvvrmfdl6@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:04:20 -0500, "Ghamph"
>>> <ghamph@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Your all powerful God permited it.
>>>>>
>>>>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
>>>>> what people do.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If God wanted to, he could make all of us mindless robots since
>>> so many of us are determined to be so wicked.
>>
>>Most people who reject the Christian God are not wicked.
>>Wicked people are in a minority,
>
> Really? It's only a few people that are murdering millions of
> babies every year? It's only a few people that are committing
> adultery? Stealing? Lying? Fornication? Adultery? If we can't
> even be honest about how wicked we are, we have no chance of
> bettering ourselves.

You Christians have a flare for the dramatic. You are driven by pious
emotion and religious fervour based on wild beliefs that stem from negative
thinking and hatred toward the human race.
The Bible God killed without any thought. Why are humans suddenly so
valuable?
Abortion is not exactly wickedness. It depends on your beliefs. Those women
are ordinary people with their own problems.
Stopping the growth of a foetus is not the same as murdering a baby. A
foetus is not yet a baby to begin with.
Raising a child without giving it total love and care is more wicked because
its for much longer.

Adultery isn't wickedness unless someone does it purposely to hurt someone.
Virtually all the things you mentioned are mostly done because of bad
societal and personal circumstances.
There are far more wicked things going on in places of power by wealthy
corporations.
Funny how the Christian God only singles out the easy targets and the ones
that Christians can see around them.

>
>>except if you believe that the six o'clock
>>news and the biblical stories are the only realities.
>>And as for being a robot, Christians are given a choice, that's true, but
>>only to become the Bible God's robot. Same result.
>
> Loving others as yourself is hardly being a robot -- it's not an
> easy choice to make, as it goes against human nature to be all
> about "me me me!". Being a slave to sin is more like being a
> robot -- because it takes no effort to be selfish.

If Christianity was just about loving others as yourself then I would have
no problem with it.

>
>>
>>> He doesn't want
>>> that. He wants people that will -choose- to worship Him.
>>
>>What about those who are not worshipping types?
>>Not everyone is a born worshipper. In fact most are not.
>
> You seem to think worshipping God involves being on your knees at
> all times. Doing his will is a form of worship. Loving others as
> yourself is a form of worship. Reading His Word is a form of
> worship. Thinking of him when you're doing activities is a form
> of worship. Singing and listening to songs of praise is a form of
> worship. And the list goes on.

The spiritually uneducated worship and praise an anthropomorphised humanoid
judgemental version of God in a self-disempowered and slave-minded way,
whereas the spiritually educated honour and work with all of creation as
co-creators which is the way it should be.

>
>>Why do you believe the Creator enjoys being worshipped and praised so
>>much?
>>Is he obsessed with himself?
>
> Why do you believe there are people who get created by God but
> refuse to thank him for doing so? That want to continue to reject
> him and be a slave to sin instead?

How is a person who is burdened with problems supposed to be thankful to an
invisible entity who never communicates any more like he did in biblical
times?

>
>
>>
>>> And I
>>> don't know about you, but speaking for me, I'd prefer to have
>>> free will and make my own choice.
>>
>>What choice? Worship me or die?
>>If a gun is put to your head (which it has) then of course your choice is
>>better.
>>But why buy into such a charade in the first place?
>
> The choice is not worship or die. The choice is we've broken
> God's Holy Law. There's a punishment for that (much like there's
> a punishment for breaking man's law). That punishment must be
> paid. You can either choose to pay it yourself, ending up in
> hell, or you can choose to receive the free gift that Christ
> offers by paying the price for your sins on the cross.

This is just the Christian spiel. There is no evidence that our Creator is
angry with us and wants us to pay, and will punish us.

>
>>
>>>
>>> God not using His powers in way we believe He should does not
>>> equate to Him not being all-powerful.
>>
>>But he doesn't use his powers at all.
>
> See you don't know this.

And neither do you.

> We see his power almost every day in our
> lives!

That is a matter of perspective.

> If his power keeps some tragedies from befalling you,
> you'd never know it because the tragedy never occurred. But for
> those of us who've received Christ, we can see his blessings at
> work in our lives every day! Praise God!
>
>
>>At least not since the biblical times.
>>Maybe he's gone.
>>
>
> 2 Peter 3:8-10 KJVR But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one
> thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a
> thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning
> his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to
> us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should
> come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a
> thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with
> a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the
> earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
>
> He hasn't gone anywhere. But many people are certainly trying
> hard to remove Him. Just look at how much they're trying to get
> rid of any evidence of Him from our schools.

What evidence?

> At the same time,
> look at the growing number of tragedies that befall these same
> schools. They remove God, then wonder why His blessings are being
> removed as well.

What about the tragedies that befall Christian churches and pastors?

>
> Praise our creator!

Whatever. If you were raised in the middle east then you would now be
praising Allah.


--
Andrew W.

"You must unlearn what you have learned" ~ Yoda

Channelled lessons about ET's, ascended masters like Jesus Christ, spirit
guides, earth changes.
http://www.spiritnexus.com/audio/channeling/index.htm

The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm

Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.acim.org/

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner

 

[bob young]

Andrew wrote:

> On 2007-11-24 03:57:02 +0000, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> said:
>
> >
> >
> > Andrew wrote:
> >
> >> On 2007-11-23 22:04:20 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:2007112321462475249-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >>>> On 2007-11-23 17:44:30 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >>>>>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >>>>>>> sadistic freak.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> >>>>>> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Your all powerful God permited it.
> >>>>
> >>>> And your co-religionists went ahead and did it. Don't blame God for
> >>>> what people do.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you, people are all powerful, not God.
> >>
> >> No - that doesn't follow at all, because I did not demur from your
> >> assertion that God permitted it. You really have no grasp of logic or
> >> reason at all, have you? Are you really saying people are omnipotent,
> >> by the way?
> >
> > ROFL A religionists talking about Logic . Oh my what next !
> >
> > ROFL
>
> Something even weirder? An atheist applying it, perhaps.

In that case you will not mind providing a few examples.....over you


Thanks

 

[bob young]

Andrew wrote:

> On 2007-11-24 03:54:02 +0000, bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> said:
>
> >
> >
> > Andrew wrote:
> >
> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>
> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >>> sadistic freak.
> >>
> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now,
> >> you were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >
> > There are no wars or actions in the name of atheism.
> >
> > Because atheism was banned along with ALL organizations in early communist
> > regimes it does not mean they killed in the name of atheists.
>
> This is what makes atheists like you dangerous, Bob. See, we
> god-botherers, if we're smart, know the damage that has been caused in
> the name of our beliefs. We face it - it pains us and reminds us that
> we have to be on our guard against being caught up in such things. You
> are so far into denial that you don't have such safeguards. Face
> reality Bob - it hurts, but it's necessary.

What in tarnation was all that supposed to mean?

>
>
> >
> > Atheism is simply a rejection of gods and nothing more.
> >
> > But of course, since you cannot produce your gods you cling to any little thing
> > that can be used to propagate 'him'
> >
> > Keep trying - you will be 'trying' right up to the day you die, like
> > your grandpa
> > did.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Religious Martyrs
> >>>
> >>> David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
> >>> o World Christian Encyclopedia (2001): This book is the standard
> >>> reference work for religious statistics of all kinds, and both Britannica
> >>> and the World Almanac cite from it. It has a single page
> >>> [http://gem-werc.org/gd/gd16.pdf] estimating the number of martyrs since the
> >>> origin of each religion:
> >>> + Muslim martyrs: 80M
> >>> + Christian martyrs: 70M
> >>> # 20th Century: 45.4M
> >>> # At the hands of...
> >>> Atheists: 31,689,000
> >>> Muslims 9,121,000
> >>> Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
> >>> Christians: 5,538,000
> >>> Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
> >>> Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
> >>> Hindus: 676,000
> >>> Zoroastrians: 384,000
> >>> + Hindu martyrs: 20M
> >>> + Buddhist martyrs: 10M
> >>> + Jewish: 9M
> >>> + Ethnoreligious: 6M
> >>> + Sikh: 2M
> >>> + Baha'i: 1M
> >>> + Other religious martyrs: 5M
> >>> o The book defines martyrs as
> >>> 1. Believers in Christ (U.O.N.)
> >>> 2. Who have lost their lives
> >>> 3. Prematurely
> >>> 4. In situations of witness
> >>> 5. As a result of human hostility.
> >>> o World Christian Trends by Barrett et al: Apparently this book
> >>> gives more details about martyrdom statistics, but so far, I haven't found
> >>> it in a library (even our local seminary), and I can't afford to buy it
> >>> myself. (But see http://gem-werc.org/gd/listings.pdf) Here are some of the
> >>> major episodes that I've been able to scrounge from websites and articles.
> >>> Some of my sources have been somewhat ambiguous in their wording, so I
> >>> honestly don't know whether they mean to say that the Amerindians and
> >>> Baghdadians, for example, are meant as Christian martyrs or Muslim or
> >>> Shamanist, or whether the various subclasses who died at Soviet or Nazi
> >>> hands are already included in the largest number or meant to be added to it.
> >>> + Martyrdom at Soviet hands:
> >>> # 1921-50: 15M Christians in prison camps
> >>> # 1950-80: 5M Christians in prison camps
> >>> # Orthodox: 14.5M k. by Stalin, 2.7M of them martyrs
> >>> (1929-37)
> >>> # Roman Catholics (1925): 1.2M martyrs
> >>> + By Mongols
> >>> # 1214: Genghiz Khan massacres 6M Christians: 4M
> >>> martyrs
> >>> # 1214: Diocese of Herat sacked by Genghiz Khan: 1M
> >>> # 1258: massacre in Baghdad by Hulaku Khan: 1.1M
> >>> # 1358: Tamerlane destroys 15-million-strong
> >>> Nestorians: 4M martyrs
> >>> + Conquistadors kill 15 million Amerindians: 2M martyrs
> >>> (1560)
> >>> + Christians executed by Nazis in death camps: 1M
> >>> # Nazis exterminate 0.5M Gypsies
> >>> + Khmer Rouge slaughter 2M (1975)
> >>> + Kurds massacre 20,000 Nestorians (1843)
> >>> + Massacre of 40,000 Vietnamese Catholics (1970)
> >>> The Ottawa Citizen (20 Dec. 1998)
> >>> o 15M Christians d. in Soviet prison camps because of their faith.
> >>> o citing Paul Marshall, Their Blood Cries Out
> >>> + ca. 400,000 Chinese Christians died during the Cultural
> >>> Revolution.
> >>> + ca. 100,000 Christians k by Idi Amin (out of 300,000 total
> >>> k.)
> >>> + Up to 500,000 Rwandan Christians died as witnesses to
> >>> their faith (out of 700,000 total k.) (1994)
> >>> The Ottawa Citizen (6 Feb. 1993)
> >>> o Citing D. Barret, Our Globe and How to Reach It
> >>> + 40M Christians martyred throughout history.
> >>> + ca. 24M by secular governments and atheists
> >>> + ca. 8M k. by other Christians

 

[bob young]

Andrew wrote:

> On 2007-11-24 06:13:20 +0000, "Andrew W"
> <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> said:
>
> > "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> > news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>
> >>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >>> sadistic freak.
> >>
> >> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now, you
> >> were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >
> > Wrong.
> > No one has ever committed mass murder in the name of atheism. Politics and
> > other causes yes, but not purely in the name of atheism.
>
> Oh - that's OK then. Atheists slaughtering religionists for their
> beliefs can be written off Atheism's books because it's 'politics'.
> Those 31, 689, 000 will rest easier for that.
>
> >
> > And atheism is not a religion. There are very few people in the world who
> > campaign for atheism religiously. Not enough to form a religion.
>
> So you're not a religion because you don't have the numbers?

I feel so sad and sorry for relgionists
when they are driven to making such weak and pathetic statements such as that.

 

[bob young]

Andrew W wrote:

> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> news:2007112410364727544-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> > On 2007-11-24 06:13:20 +0000, "Andrew W"
> > <removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> said:
> >
> >> "Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> >> news:2007112317250916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
> >>> On 2007-11-23 17:01:42 +0000, "Ghamph" <ghamph@localnet.com> said:
> >>>
> >>>> If a God existed, he wouldn't allow this, unless he is a cold hearted
> >>>> sadistic freak.
> >>>
> >>> Take a look at the detail. 31, 689,00 at the hands of atheists. Now, you
> >>> were discussing sadism and cruety...
> >>
> >> Wrong.
> >> No one has ever committed mass murder in the name of atheism. Politics
> >> and
> >> other causes yes, but not purely in the name of atheism.
> >
> >
> > Oh - that's OK then. Atheists slaughtering religionists for their beliefs
> > can be written off Atheism's books because it's 'politics'. Those 31, 689,
> > 000 will rest easier for that.
>
> Name one war that was fought in the name of not wanting to believe in any
> God.
> You can't, because there is no motivation great enough in atheism.to kill
> anyone.
> You can call political tyrants atheists if you want, but they are political
> tyrants first, and atheists only second (that's if they were atheists which
> some weren't).
> Judeo Christian theists in our history have often not been much better in
> the peace and harmony department.
> In fact even today many Christians support war.
>
> >
> >>
> >> And atheism is not a religion. There are very few people in the world who
> >> campaign for atheism religiously. Not enough to form a religion.
> >
> > So you're not a religion because you don't have the numbers?
>
> That's right. A religion is a religion because of the number of followers it
> gets together into an organisation.

Ideed it is so, it must all be the truth because so many of us believe it is
so....