Tired Ranting about Mental Dicipline

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well skategreen...good for us...what a meeting of minds!

I really cannot explain my reasons for defending the medication route for ADHD when in fact I no longer subscribe to it. Funny. I do feel that it has efficacy for certain individuals though.

Without a doubt, I feel that 90% of the individuals diagnosed ADHD is a misdiagnosis of convenience. It's the real 10% that I have had a taste of and am concerned with.

Most certainly, empirical evidence is not required to form a belief of something and I never meant to express that it was. I applaud your receptivity to perhaps someday, meeting and interacting with a real ADHD individual to enrich your own personal experience.

Cheers!

 

[angie]

Well I’m not that old. They weren’t’ preforming lobotomies in my day if that’s what you mean. I don’t really know what drugs they were giving him but he was a basket case when we went to see him. I guess you’re probably right though. Tech. has improved quite a bit.

No, I do realize you're not that old, but let's look at it this way. You have a granddaughter, let's say you're 50.
In your time-I'm going to assume it was somewhere between the ages of 17 and 25, so we shall say that your friend was given these meds 25 years ago.
25 years ago, things were very different in the mental health field. While I am not well versed on the specifics I do know that the medications, therapies, and other treatments have changed drastically since then. Comparing to your friend's expirience back then holds absolutely no merit in today's mental health world. The standards have changed. Quite a bit.
And here's a tidbit-The Massachusetts General Hospital of Boston performed on average 15 lobotamies per year between 1980-1986.

 

[builder]

There's been several exposed cases of mothers pushing for positive ADHD prognoses, and then taking the drugs meant for their kids. Just what is the effect of these drugs? I have no idea.

 

[angie]

There's been several exposed cases of mothers pushing for positive ADHD prognoses, and then taking the drugs meant for their kids. Just what is the effect of these drugs? I have no idea.

In someone who doesn't have ADHD, it can have the opposite effect-similar to speed. Definitely an upper.

 

[snafu]

Actually, our opinions are supposed to be backed up with facts.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/studies/1add.cfm

As in FACT: ADHD exists whether you "believe" in it or not. "Beliefs" don't hold **** in the world of medicine.



Then see the above link.



Says the doctor who has done EXTENSIVE research into this field, who's OFFICIAL diagnosis is that this doesn't exist



I was hyper...but I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD. And I was a little brat, but I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD.

Snafu, nothing you have said yet holds any water with anyone with the exception of skategreen.



So the MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL doesn't believe that REAL MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS are smart enough to do their job.

What exactly makes you more qualified to tell scientific researchers that they are stupid than the rest of us?



They do? I thought ADHD didn't exist!?!? Where are your studies to prove this??? Where are your facts???

Snafu, you should try RESEARCHING THE TOPIC before you debate it...it makes the more intelligent side have to waste less energy.

Before I read on I want to state that I had come to these conclusions and then googled up theses findings as well. Yes I found the ones that agreed with me. In fact Autism is proven. In fact there are no real tests for ADHD. In fact most kids diagnosed with ADHD do come from dysfunctional familes. So MM I plagiarized if you will a web site with this very statement. Alcohol and dug abused familes have a higher chance of having kids being diagnossed with this.

 

[snafu]

And here's a tidbit-The Massachusetts General Hospital of Boston performed on average 15 lobotamies per year between 1980-1986.

Holy ****! I did not no they did that still in the 80's. I thought that was lost in the 50's!

 

[angie]

Holy ****! I did not no they did that still in the 80's. I thought that was lost in the 50's!

Scary, isn't it?
I want to say that it is used now, still, very very rarely in severe cases. But I could be wrong. I'll have to ask Mom (or MM).

 

[manicmonday]

Scary, isn't it?
I want to say that it is used now, still, very very rarely in severe cases. But I could be wrong. I'll have to ask Mom (or MM).

It's different than they used to be, but in some extreme cases, they are done. But only in the bigger hospitals and usually the patient has had a brain injury, so they are correcting several things at once. They used to slice the patient open awake, pour in whiskey and go to work. It think we should all be grateful that's not common practice now. Now, electric shock treatment is coming back into favor. Of course it's more high tech then in the 40' and 50's. But it is making a resurgence.

 

[hugo]

And here's a tidbit-The Massachusetts General Hospital of Boston performed on average 15 lobotamies per year between 1980-1986.
__________________

Their two most infamous patients were Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.

 

[angie]

It's different than they used to be, but in some extreme cases, they are done. But only in the bigger hospitals and usually the patient has had a brain injury, so they are correcting several things at once. They used to slice the patient open awake, pour in whiskey and go to work. It think we should all be grateful that's not common practice now. Now, electric shock treatment is coming back into favor. Of course it's more high tech then in the 40' and 50's. But it is making a resurgence.

It's a bitch to get a court order for electric shock treatments. And it has to be renewed ever 60 days or so (or at least here in CT). But from what I've heard, it does wonders for the patients who really need it.

 

[manicmonday]

It's a bitch to get a court order for electric shock treatments. And it has to be renewed ever 60 days or so (or at least here in CT). But from what I've heard, it does wonders for the patients who really need it.

Kansas is the WORST place ever to obtain psychiatric care. And it's not hard to get anyone court ordered here. Like 2 people testify, and boom, you are in the hospital. I've learned I have to be my own advocate on many topics because there are two camps of thinking here. One is the "snap out of attitude" that makes me want to puke and the other is to deny the condition exsists. Both are equally dangerous. And then there's the ****ed up courts who like to put everyone in a mental hospital and tuck them away so society doesn't have to see. Stupid ****ers, all of them.

 

[eisanbt]

Crutch? You are so obviously not well studied on this, otherwise that wouldn't have been your first word choice.

So well studied that I'd been diagnoised as bipolar, PTSD, mild detached personality and have been reading psych since I was in grade 10...yadda yadda yadda, who gives a **** it proves nothing etc... I now have a reletivly clean slate with nothing to do with drugging myself. I've twice said that I don't believe that meds shouldn't be abolished, just that the minds of many people who suffer from this particular sort of BS are capable of self healing. This will usually involve the body as well. Healthy body, healthy mind and vica-versa.

As was already said, we're just getting rolling in the world of psychology and are far from knowing all. It is my belief from experience, study and social interaction that our mind can be as plastic as we choose it to be.

 

[manicmonday]

Well Eyesinbutt, I would like to believe you, but this is from your own post that started the thread.

There are those out there who more adequate fill this title, who

 

[TommyGun1928]

Well Eyesinbutt, I would like to believe you, but this is from your own post that started the thread.





So you are backtracking. You said yourself you hate Prozac. Then you try to say "well some people might need it. Bullshit. Stand by your first statement at least. You said it is used as a bullshit escape from self-responsiblity. I say your talking out your ass. If you feel like you can "heal your mind without a cop-out" fine. But when you make a blanket statment that says everyone else should do the same? You are wrong. You are talking out your ass. Not only did I go to school for this, I live it everyday and I can assure you, I'm not using it as a cop out. I use it to function. I take care of my child by myself every day, run a freelance writing gig, have several organizations I volunteer my time with and have a social life to boot. I'm not having a "crutch", I'm having a substance in my body that allows me to function in a way that is normal.

Take a few classes in physiology, psychology, psychiatray and socialogy. Your very first post that started this bullshit tirade said people can self heal. You are wrong. What people CAN do is take participation in their own care and get well. I am a full participant in my healthcare team, but to say I should self heal, "snap out of it", that I'm using a crutch to self medicate, or my favorite, to avoid self responsiblity? Shows me you are not as educated on this topic as you think you are. You have made a blanket statment and think every one should fall under the unbrella you have created. Sorry dude, your unbrella isn't functionable to me. What are you doing that is so great while you are self healing your mind? Sitting in an apartment with roommates discussing your craziness? That sounds productive.

I agree with you entirely.

CES said earlier that the mind is fragile and that it is hence shaped easily. I believe that "Eyesinbutt" believes the same thing, but the concept that this shaping can somehow lead to self-healing is contrary to logic. The mind is unlike any other organ. Most parts of the body, when damaged, heal (and some even become stronger, like callouses on skin) through the process of cellular mitosis. When it comes to the brain, that healing power is lost. If you lose part of your brain, it's gone forever. Your body has to bypass certain areas and, if you're lucky, parts of it may be remade by the transformation of stem cells.

But that's only if you lose part of your brain. What you're saying is that people can have serious psychological disorders, like you state that you had, and deal with it, somehow healing themselves automatically. That is a very difficult thing to believe-- the entire process has much too much left to chanec.

And, yes, it is extremely narrow-minded to believe that your case is comparable to all other cases. This means that because you could deal with it until you somehow got over it (a process which you still haven't proven was automatic/an ability the brain posesses) does not mean in the slightest that everyone can do the same thing. People have varrying degrees of disorder, and that means that some are so completely fargone that they can't just 'snap out of it', or 'faith heal'. These are the people who need medication.

 

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I agree with you entirely.

CES said earlier that the mind is fragile and that it is hence shaped easily. I believe that "Eyesinbutt" believes the same thing, but the concept that this shaping can somehow lead to self-healing is contrary to logic...

Not exactly.

The human mind is an amazingly complex and fragile organism. Everything we eat or drink, see, hear, smell, taste and feel causes our mind to form and to shape. Each of us are unique in that regard, yet remarkably similar as well.

I do not believe that the mind is shaped easily; quite the contrary and I'm uncertain as to where you attribute that idea to me.

Please continue...

 

[TommyGun1928]

Not exactly.



I do not believe that the mind is shaped easily; quite the contrary and I'm uncertain as to where you attribute that idea to me.

Please continue...

"Not exactly" isn't an argument. You're slipping.

 

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

"Not exactly" isn't an argument. You're slipping.

By God you are getting more stupid by the minute... Arrggg...

"Not exactly" referred to you claiming to quote what I had said earlier on in the post. You got it wrong. I should have said, "No idiot, your wrong" but I tried to be diplomatic.

Silly me.

 

[TommyGun1928]

I agree with you entirely.

CES said earlier that the mind is fragile and that it is hence shaped easily. I believe that "Eyesinbutt" believes the same thing, but the concept that this shaping can somehow lead to self-healing is contrary to logic. The mind is unlike any other organ. Most parts of the body, when damaged, heal (and some even become stronger, like callouses on skin) through the process of cellular mitosis. When it comes to the brain, that healing power is lost. If you lose part of your brain, it's gone forever. Your body has to bypass certain areas and, if you're lucky, parts of it may be remade by the transformation of stem cells.

But that's only if you lose part of your brain. What you're saying is that people can have serious psychological disorders, like you state that you had, and deal with it, somehow healing themselves automatically. That is a very difficult thing to believe-- the entire process has much too much left to chanec.

And, yes, it is extremely narrow-minded to believe that your case is comparable to all other cases. This means that because you could deal with it until you somehow got over it (a process which you still haven't proven was automatic/an ability the brain posesses) does not mean in the slightest that everyone can do the same thing. People have varrying degrees of disorder, and that means that some are so completely fargone that they can't just 'snap out of it', or 'faith heal'. These are the people who need medication.

To sum it up, faith healing is a sham. Too many people fall for analogies that contradict the truth. In this case, the mind can heal from a psychological disorder as a limb heals from a physical injury.

 

[eisanbt]

People have varrying degrees of disorder, and that means that some are so completely fargone that they can't just 'snap out of it', or 'faith heal'. These are the people who need medication.

I agree, and stated this in the very first post of this thread, I did not make an all-encompassing umbrella statment...

 

[manicmonday]

But being on a drug is not a valid excuse to call yourself crazy, really I just think its people being weak. I share the same (Well similar) bullshit as these crazy folk, but I was never medicated. I fought through trauma and neuroticism with thought alone, being isolated in the country even meant a lack of peer support. But it just goes to show that its possible and I'd say preferable.

This is a blanket statement. You are saying that since you could do it then anyone else can. I want to know what proof that you are a full functionable person, living a productive life helping other people. I want proof.

When I see a friend or even an acquaintance go on a drug, legal or otherwise, to help them function... I'm bothered. When you add a drug in the mix, when you add that bullshit escape from self-responsibility, that is what you become.

I hate the idea of becoming Prozac or ****ing Dope or booze or anything else. My mind is up to me to handle and heal, to-hell with cop-outs.

Yoo-hoo, blanket statement calling, diner for one. I'll be chewing my nails and twiddling my hair waiting for prove that you are living a productful life that will be prosperous. Not prosperous money wise, prosperous in many otherwise. I love hearing when a person has an uneducated opinion that is unfounded in reality and tries to push that thought on the masses. Tom Cruise wanna be.