You're not buying this "competition" horsesh!t are you?

[timesjoke]

Yes, what IWS said, let me post my statement again:

I also feel bad for people who fall through the cracks, the middle ground people who are not poor and not middle class are the problem spot because everyone else is already getting care and if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them I would gladly support that move but that is not what their doing.

I underlined the parts you ignored Bender.

I qualify my comment by saying the poor and middle class already have medical care. I would offer support for a plan that targets those who fall through the cracks only because that is all that is needed at this time. I see no reason to create a bigger system that overlaps existing medical coverages or is a element for removing existing coverages.

 

[snafu]

Hmmm...

I don't mind paying into health care because we all need it. TJ is narrowing his view to waiting...I already said in at least three posts we HAVE to wait!!!! I said that already...I said we have problems, I said I'm sure some die in waiting rooms...I never discounted his preemie article I'm sure it happened. I'm saying BOTH have issues and that Canada has always taken care of us. I've never been to the states for medical procedures.

(since we all need to discredit everyone's health care....good grief!)

TJ is unwilling to accept that I like it. That my personal examples are lies. It is apparently painful to his psyche that I could be okay with waiting a little...or putting someone more needy ahead of me. Sorry TJ...I just don't have a big problem here. Your sources are credible sure...but they don't reflect my experiences at all...nor my friends. I never once said we never wait for anything...sure we do...but when it counted we got the care we needed. If surgery is elective here you are going to wait. I guess maybe for some the wait time is a huge issue...but lots of people complain. Believe me if it was terrible I would complain...maybe I just don't think it's so bad. I'm disappointed that you feel my personal experiences are lies...but my experience is all I have to go on.

....

.........but Emkay says all that is wrong so we should listen to her instead of their suppreme court rulings?
Medical waiting times are so bad medical travel has become a massive business in Canada. Companies have sprung up dedicated to setting up medical treatments in other Countries packaged with travel and hotels.....now why would these exist in massive numbers if there was no market for them to service?

Emkay is defending her system out of blind pride or something, but she is not being honest.

The list goes on and on............But Emkay says there is no real problem. I am sorry but I seriously doubt the Canadian suppreme court would have found against the Government if everything was how Emkay describes it.

Snaf,

I also feel bad for people who fall through the cracks, the middle ground people who are not poor and not middle class are the problem spot because everyone else is already getting care and if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them I would gladly support that move but that is not what their doing.

No read what she said again TJ. I think she said there is a wait and some may die but she accepts the plan that's not perfect but works for her and other Canadians. You can't fault her or call her a liar for it. You can only disagree.

I think that's where reform could come into play. We don't need a government run health care but we could have a subsidized on of some sort.

 

[ImWithStupid]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqD-nMpsYAY&feature=channel_page]YouTube - Obama Health Reform and Wait Times Visualization (In Lego!)[/ame]

 

[snafu]

Yes, what IWS said, let me post my statement again:
I also feel bad for people who fall through the cracks, the middle ground people who are not poor and not middle class are the problem spot because everyone else is already getting care and if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them I would gladly support that move but that is not what their doing.

I underlined the parts you ignored Bender.

I qualify my comment by saying the poor and middle class already have medical care. I would offer support for a plan that targets those who fall through the cracks only because that is all that is needed at this time. I see no reason to create a bigger system that overlaps existing medical coverages or is a element for removing existing coverages.

I agree with this.

 

[timesjoke]

No read what she said again TJ. I think she said there is a wait and some may die but she accepts the plan that's not perfect but works for her and other Canadians. You can't fault her or call her a liar for it. You can only disagree.
I think that's where reform could come into play. We don't need a government run health care but we could have a subsidized on of some sort.

Your still missing my point snaf.

Emkay says to ignore the Canadian suppreme court, ignore the yearly meetings, ignore their inability to treat some of their emergency care, ignore all the studies and research and take her word for it that everything is fine.

Well it may be fine for her, just like many religious fanatics don't want their people to see doctors and such, but reguardless of how Emkay views it, the reality is that there are massive problems with Canada's healthcare system.

We can believe the facts, or believe Emkay's flowery comments that all is reasonable. I prefer to believe hard facts.

 

[snafu]

Your still missing my point snaf.
Emkay says to ignore the Canadian suppreme court, ignore the yearly meetings, ignore their inability to treat some of their emergency care, ignore all the studies and research and take her word for it that everything is fine.

Well it may be fine for her, just like many religious fanatics don't want their people to see doctors and such, but reguardless of how Emkay views it, the reality is that there are massive problems with Canada's healthcare system.

We can believe the facts, or believe Emkay's flowery comments that all is reasonable. I prefer to believe hard facts.

No I got the point. Did you post the Canadian suppreme court desion becase I didn't see it. If so then they would have made a decison to change something not just throw out that fact that the system is flawed.

Here is what emkay posted. Read it. some of it dosen't jive like calling the health insurance company not part of the goverment but anyways....

Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I | OurFuture.org --

 

[timesjoke]

No I got the point. Did you post the Canadian suppreme court desion becase I didn't see it. If so then they would have made a decison to change something not just throw out that fact that the system is flawed.
Here is what emkay posted. Read it. some of it dosen't jive like calling the health insurance company not part of the goverment but anyways....

I posted the short version of the suppreme court ruling, it was surrounded by the push to allow private health insurance in Canada, previously not legal in Canada.

The court found that the Canadian system was killing Canadians so they allowed privare insurance so some Canadians would have the option of finding health care outside of Canada if they needed it.

I do read all of the opinion pages people like Emkay offer but I cannot take an opinion page over hard facts. Nothing Emkay has said or posted even comes close to refuting what the Canadian suppreme court has said.

The evidence is just too lopsided against Emkay's possition to be believable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaoulli_v._Quebec_(Attorney_General)

 

[wez]

So.. TJ .. you say there's no comparison based on population.. apples/oranges.. yet.. you continue to compare Canada's system and point out it's flaws.. Are you fukken that stupid?

And shut the fukk up about emkay.. she gave her OPINION based on her EXPERIENCE.. She said it wasn't perfect.. she said they wait.. she said she likes it..

I'm going to be a nurse after one more year of school.. and I'd much rather work in that system than ours..

Come call me a liar.. dipsh t..

 

[phreakwars]

Yes, what IWS said, let me post my statement again:
I also feel bad for people who fall through the cracks, the middle ground people who are not poor and not middle class are the problem spot because everyone else is already getting care and if a plan would come along to "JUST" help them I would gladly support that move but that is not what their doing.

I underlined the parts you ignored Bender.

I qualify my comment by saying the poor and middle class already have medical care. I would offer support for a plan that targets those who fall through the cracks only because that is all that is needed at this time. I see no reason to create a bigger system that overlaps existing medical coverages or is a element for removing existing coverages.

Well, I guess you completely missed it when the President said the plan was to allow people to keep the coverage they already have if they are happy with it. Nowhere did he ever say it was something that was gonna be forced on anyone, nor remove any existing coverage that people who can already afford it have.

.

.

 

[phreakwars]

Your still missing my point snaf.
Emkay says to ignore the Canadian suppreme court, ignore the yearly meetings, ignore their inability to treat some of their emergency care, ignore all the studies and research and take her word for it that everything is fine.

Well it may be fine for her, just like many religious fanatics don't want their people to see doctors and such, but reguardless of how Emkay views it, the reality is that there are massive problems with Canada's healthcare system.

We can believe the facts, or believe Emkay's flowery comments that all is reasonable. I prefer to believe hard facts.

This is the same guy who believes the government is out to enslave us.

 

[timesjoke]

Well, I guess you completely missed it when the President said the plan was to allow people to keep the coverage they already have if they are happy with it. Nowhere did he ever say it was something that was gonna be forced on anyone, nor remove any existing coverage that people who can already afford it have..

.

You mean just like his promise to not have lobbyists in his cabinet?

"No political appointees in an Obama-Biden administration will be permitted to work on regulations or contracts directly and substantially related to their prior employer for two years. And no political appointee will be able to lobby the executive branch after leaving government service during the remainder of the administration."

Or how about his promise to let the American people have 5 days to review any emergency bill before signing it?

"will not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days."

I miss nothing, but I have no reason to believe what he says based on the outlines of the plans that are being circulated. The plans seem geared to be in direct compettition with existing insurance. There are no gurantees or restrictions keeping people from dropping their existing coverage for the cheaper Government plan.

This is the same guy who believes the government is out to enslave us.

No, not the Government, certain people who want to control the power of the Government for their own purposes. The Government is not alive, it has no thoughts of it's own. The people who fill the possitions of power in Government direct it's actions.

That is why certain things like activist Judges are selected so they can circumvent some elements of government and write law from the bench.

 

[Ahhlee]

TJ....
Yes...we wait...but we all get seen...and I don't have to declare bankrupcy to pay.

You tried to state there was no issue with waiting lines, you gave examples of just walking in to get any treatment you wanted.

She isn't disputing that there is sometimes waiting involved. Can you not read?

I offered facts that prove you were not being honest about your waiting times

Were you THERE?????? Your "facts" prove NOTHING about emkay's personal experience. If she says she didn't have to wait in those situations, I fully fukking believe her.

Well you bvoth love to be untruthful with your comments and I guess that is to be expected when your only objective is on thing reguadrless what the facts say.

Emkay, for you to claim there are no waiting times problems but your entire Country from the suppreme court to local doctors all saying there is a massive problem shows your not willing to be honest. What I posted was not idle gossip from unreliable sources, it was hard facts provided by the medical facilities themselves.

You read an online article about Canada's healthcare so that makes you an authority on the subject? I think not.

Medical waiting times are so bad medical travel has become a massive business in Canada. Companies have sprung up dedicated to setting up medical treatments in other Countries packaged with travel and hotels.....now why would these exist in massive numbers if there was no market for them to service?

North Dakota buses were transporting people up to Canada last year specifically for them to get flu shots and purchase prescription meds. Mexico hospitals have travel packages set up for Americans seeking inexpensive medical treatment, too. I guess not EVERYONE is coming to the States for all their medical needs. Maybe our system isn't perfect after all. Does that make you a liar, TJ?

We can believe the facts, or believe Emkay's flowery comments that all is reasonable. I prefer to believe hard facts.

She never said ALL is perfect. YOU are the one stating things in absolutes. She is saying that in her personal experience, Canadian healthcare has worked well for her and her family and she is satisfied with what she has. How you think that makes her a "liar" is beyond my comprehension. Emkay is a real person sharing her very real experiences and her contribution is completely valid to this topic. Just because you aren't interested in hearing about true human experiences on the matter and would rather view the world from the purely intellectual standpoint of spreadsheets, newspaper articles and expense reports doesn't mean she is "wrong". So stop insulting her integrity by saying she is not being honest! It's completely uncalled for.

 

[hugo]

Basic economic laws 1) There is no free good 2) So-called free goods have to be rationed.

 

[Ahhlee]

Personally, I don't want our government take over the healthcare system because I've seen how they run VA Hospitals and provide medical care for our men and women in the service. It's shoddy at best.

So really, there's no need to look at how other countries are dealing with free healthcare because we already have it implemented here on a smaller scale....and we're not doing a very good job at it, are we?

If the government can't manage caring for our service personnel efficiently, I don't see how anyone can expect an expanded version of that will be successful or even satisfactory, either.

 

[RoyalOrleans]

While the Democrats battle within their own party to come up with a healthcare bill that they think can pass, the Republicans have decided to come up with a bill of their own.

Does it have any legs to stand on?

Nope!

The GOP is tinkering with socialism and further solidifying the Progressive Democrat push to power.

But here are some of the details according to CNN Money ......

"Pools" of insurance. It would let states, small businesses and others group together to offer lower-cost, health care plans. Such pools would have to offer, at a minimum, any coverage that is provided in a majority of states.

Medicaid transfer. It would allow Medicaid users to take the value of their Medicaid benefits and transfer/apply those to a private health care plan instead.

Boosting of health care savings accounts. It would increase incentives for people, especially those in lower income brackets or over 55, to build up HSAs. OK .. this idea has merit.

Automatic insurance. It would encourage employers to sign up their workers for health insurance automatically, so that employees would have to "opt out" of coverage if they didn't want it. This is reform? How about moving more health insurance policies to private ownership, instead of corporate.

Longer coverage for youths. It would allow dependent children to stay on their parents' policies until they are 25.

Promotion of wellness at the workplace. It would encourage employers to reward employees for improved health.

Expansion of community health centers.

Mobile health care. It would allow Americans to maintain their specific health insurance policies when they lose or leave jobs.

In-home care. It would provide financial help and encourage more in-home care over institutions.

Limitations on malpractice lawsuits. There is general agreement over limiting such lawsuits, but a deep divide exists over exactly how much.

This is weak. Very weak. There is only a minimal promotion of the private sector here. Let me give you just a few ideas of things they missed:

Allow individuals to deduct the cost of their health insurance from their taxable income, just like their employers can right now.

End all state insurance mandates. If some insurance company wants to market an insurance policy that doesn't cover for the normal costs of childbirth, drug abuse treatments, mental health treatments, obesity treatments, alcohol-related treatments and the like ... then let them.

Allow people to shop across state lines for their medical insurance.

Expand the privileges of nurse practitioners. I don't need someone with seven years of medical school and residency to prescribe an antibiotic for a sore throat.

Charge a minimum of $5.00 per visit to any public health facility ... regardless of income. This will weed out the people for whom a visit to the doctor is more of a weekly social event.

Require only life-saving medical care to those who are in this country illegally.

Allow employers to shut out smokers from any company-provided health insurance benefits.

That took me all of 90 seconds .. .and there's not one idea there that expands the size or scope of government.

 

[timesjoke]

Wow..another person happy with the health care here. Must be a liar too...even though they do admit to some problems. I think a person living and using the system has more credibility than Government sponsored write ups or "studies" with money being the agenda. I don't gobble up everything the media feeds me. Studies are bull and unless you were there to see them performed...I'm not so sure they were conducted. Real experience is much more credible.

Ali,

I have never disputed Emkay's point from her personal point of view, I dispute where she claims the waiting times are not as bad as reported.

She can love her "free" medical care all she wants, that does not erase the facts that I have posted to where even her own supreme court has said their waiting lines are killing Canadians.

Emkay even denied there were Canadians being shipped to American hospitals for things like premature births and caridiac problems because the Canadian system is so clogged up they can't treat everyone so America is Canada's safety net.

Emkay's views are very significant on this issue on her isolated point of view, but her claims studies were all made up and false and her ignoreing the ruling of the supreme court show she is not being completely honest about the overall medical care in Canada.

How do you explain the Taming of the Queue annual conferences if everything is so fine and reasonable as Emkay claims Ali? They have this for no reason?

 

[hugo]

The fact is we are comparing our current system which is 60-70% government controlled to systems that are 95% government controlled. We need to go backwards to the medical system Americans enjoyed a half-century ago with the benefits of modern technology.

To add to RO's list. Repeal the Kefauver Amendment that greatly increases the costs of bringing a new drug to market. Reduce the restrictions on individuals practicing medicine. Eliminate the need to obtain prescriptions for drugs.

 

[ImWithStupid]

Well, I guess you completely missed it when the President said the plan was to allow people to keep the coverage they already have if they are happy with it. Nowhere did he ever say it was something that was gonna be forced on anyone, nor remove any existing coverage that people who can already afford it have..

.

Less than 24 hours after Heritage Foundation President Ed Feulner questioned the veracity of President Obama?s persistent claim that, under his health care proposals, ?if you like your insurance package you can keep it?, the White House has begun to walk the President?s claim back. Turns out he didn?t really mean it.

According to the Associated Press, ?White House officials suggest the president?s rhetoric shouldn?t be taken literally: What Obama really means is that government isn?t about to barge in and force people to change insurance.?

How?s that for change you can believe in?

Depending on how the public plan is designed in Congress, millions of Americans would lose their existing coverage. By opening the public plan to all employees and using Medicare rates, the Lewin Group, a nationally prominent econometrics firm, has said that the public plan could result in 119.1 million Americans being transitioned out of private coverage, including employer based coverage, into a public plan. With employers making the key decision, millions of Americans could lose their private coverage, regardless of their personal preferences in this matter.

Obama Walks Back Promise On Keeping Your Private Insurance The Foundry
But they know their plan will cause people to lose their current coverage, enact a mandate that everyone must have coverage, which leaves them with the government plan.

 

[phreakwars]

Aren't you the EXACT SAME GUY who, in defense of Sarah Palin, said blogs aren't reliable? Then you have the nerve to quote something from a blog?

.

.

 

[emkay64]

Aren't you the EXACT SAME GUY who, in defense of Sarah Palin, said blogs aren't reliable? Then you have the nerve to quote something from a blog?.

.

He also said Wikipedia isn't reliable...but he uses that to support his arguments too. Government rags are reliable when proving his point, but governments are bad business everywhere else. I also think he's lying about making State championships in football...but I digress.