timesjoke

Interesting how you find blameless the people who actually cast their vote for Obama like the Libertarians who were the biggest normally conservative group to vote their majority in the contested States "FOR" Obama, not McCain. The idiots were those people who thought Obama was not that bad and witheld their votes from McCain out of spite or fear that they had already lost before the contest began. The question is, are we willing to fight for America? Every fight has sacrifice, no win can come without some give and take involved. “There are plenty of teams in every sport that have great players and never win titles. Most of the time, those players aren't willing to sacrifice for the greater good of the team. The funny thing is, in the end, their unwillingness to sacrifice only makes individual goals more difficult to achieve. One thing I believe to the fullest is that if you think and achieve as a team, the individual accolades will take care of themselves. Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence win championships.� ~ Michael Jordan We were not playing as a team, and we lost.

Every sane person who followed college football in 2007 knew the Michigan Wolverines were going to win their game against the barely known Appalachian St. Mountaineers. The Wolverines were ranked number 5 in the nation and were considered the drop down favorite to win the Big Ten championship and go to the National championship game. The tiny school from Boon NC pulled off what is considered by most the biggest upset in recent history in the college football world. The Wolverines even had a chance to save the game in a last few seconds field goal attempt and guess what, the Mountaineers blocked it winning 34 to 32. They won because they never believed they were beaten before the game was played. My vote was cast for the only conservative on the ticket, yours was not. Nobody will ever deprive the American people of the right to vote except the American people themselves and the only way they could do this is by not voting. ~ Franklin D. Roosevelt In my opinion wasting your vote on someone who is not even in the running is the same thing as not voting at all.

True, but the more time that goes by the less likely it will be completely eliminated. I am just talking form how things tend to be, I would be very glad to see this be the exception to the rule. My point was consistency and hypocrisy. You were consistent and was fully supportive of Obama and all he represented the entire time. You were true to the values you were vocal about, I respect you for that even if I do not agree with your choices. Other people chatter constantly about wanting conservative values to come back but fail to support the only conservative who can win the election, that to me is inconsistent because you have to start somewhere, you can't expect to get everything you want the first time around, the idea is to encourage conservative minded people to run for office. I would have voted for Sarah Palin just to piss off the liberals, they seem so completely scared of a conservative woman who is successful and did not have to look like a smashed mushroom or give up being a woman to gain her success. The disruption Palin caused alone would have blocked pretty much everything the liberals tried to do.

I am not trying to be insulting, we all tend to lean one way or ther other, what I do remember is your being very supportive of Obama before the election and supporting most of his possitions so based on your own words you were 'mostly' liberal anyway. My point was that you were simply supporting what you believed in, nothing wrong with that, you made your choice and truly believed you were doing the right thing. The other guys who talk about being conservative but not support a conservative who can win the election seems to be a contradiction in my mind.

Once an entitlement gets rooted, it will not be removed. Social security is doomed to failure but nobody is willing to lay a hand on it from fear of the political backlash. Who do you think will remove it? Do you think Obama will sign anything that will remove it? No, so that means we need enough power in congress to act without the President, and we will not gain that many seats. The only chance I see for stopping this is in the courts. If you see another possibility please teach me with some specifics because I just don't see it.

Lots of echos, from many sources

The Republicans will win a majority but I doubt they will gain enough power to change anything with a hard liberal President there tossing the veto around. If we did not just get a new entitlement passed because of the last election I might agree with you guys that it was good but this is something we cannot eliminate, this is like social security and welfare, and Obama gets to go down in history as the guy who put this new entitlement into place, that is all he wanted to do. With all the attempts by liberals in the past who tried to get something similar passed, Obama actually made it happen, I cannot call this a good thing no matter how I look at it.

I agree with you, guns are too much, there are a huge number of Democrats who believe in the right to bear arms, that will never fly. Immigration is safer, even the conservatives agree that things as they are must be changed. I see a "guest workers" program to be comming so they can pay some taxes on their earnings to get conservative support. I do think they will have to deal with the border though, the American people are mad enough as it is, if the Democrats suddenly showed some concern with closing off the border they could win back some public support.

But the "best thing" as you call it is a new entitlement program that cannot be removed now. That is my point, by refusing to support the only conservative who could win an election, your simply helping the liberals who do not splinter off. Trying to say I caused this is silly, there was nobody else to vote for. There was not one "more conservative" canidate who was well known enough to win on a National ticket. I have voted for many independent canidates who were more conservative then the running Republican on local elections because they can get enough exposure to let the people know who they are. They have a chance to get elected so I support them. But, on a National election, if they are unknown, they have no possible way to get elected. Ron Paul was basically running "like" an independent where he was vocally against his own party but even he was relatively unknown and only showed around a 10% recognition rate for likely voters, you can't win an election when 90% of the voters don't know what your possitions are. What I am talking about is reality, I can accept reality and vote based on my understand of that cold, hard, truth. I will not bury my head in the sand and pretend there is another reality. The fact is, only one of two people can win (right now). Maybe one day there will be other possibilities but unless the liberals splinter off like the conservatives are doing now, I don't see the payoff to stop supporting the only conservative who can win. Division makes us weak and them strong, it is like we are falling for their game, I know they are happy as hell we are divided, too bad so many normally conservative minded people are so stuck on their "purity" that they are forgetting the real threat to America....the liberals like Obama who are mad stronger by our division.

I can honestly say that I am unsure if the Courts will allow this but I am hoping they will not. If forcing people to buy insurance is okay then what is next? Force everyone to buy certain cars? Force everyone to buy certain homes? Force everyone to buy certain foods? Should the Government control every aspect of your life? Well this is the first step of that goal.

Why did you edit out my reply to your flame of me RO? Why do you feel it necessary to flame someone in the process of a debate your losing? I just do not understand why you act this way but I will be the bigger man and not return your flames, I point them out though to show how it is not me who is starting stuff. Funny as hell that you have to censor out my reply though, lol.

You guys spend a lot of time talking about stalin and new york but you can't live in the past, the future is formed by today and if you refuse to support what few conservative values we have access to then it will only get worse. You guys have the all or nothing attitude, and your getting nothing. RO, I did not read your post, I saw where you resoreted to flames calling me a chind and simply tuned you out, if you want to be a reasonable man and leave your flames out of the conversation I will gladly debate any topic with you but your taking everything as personal like I am hurting you or something. It is only a discussion, people are not good or evil just because they agree or do not agree on a specific point. In this we do not agree, I believe any conservative values are better than no conservative values, you IWS and hugo believe in an all or nothing attitude, and you have been rewarded with nothing. I voted for the conservative who could win, I have nothing to be ashamed of, but anyone who did not vote for McCain but is vocally conservative should be ashamed because this healthcare bill was made possible by people like you. Being as this one is pure flames I will again be the bigger man and leave this conversation as well, I see no point in getting mad while talking about things, it does not solve anything.

If you didn't care why bring it up? I only replied to your question. Decent conservatives and even middle of the road liberals are those who are still connected to the people, listening to the people and (here comes the important part) who are representing the people. When you run people into the dirt without good reason that sends a message out to all those good people that there is no decency to be had even from fellow conservatives so where is the motivation to run for office RO? My point is if we encourage good people to run for office, then more good people will see that and also want to run for office but right now who are mainly the only people who are willing to run for office? Lawyers, and what are lawyers? Trained liars. No, I asked you why you want her to be communist? The laws of the State says the oil belongs to the people. Palin did not write that law but as Governor has to enforce that law of the land. She is not a socialist just because she is following the laws and representing the people of Alaska in that capacity. She does not have to agree with the laws to enforce the laws. I remember a bunch of women's groups tried to say Sarah Palin would be a huge step backward for all women because she did not believe in the right to have an abortion. There was a successful woman, with a husband who was also the father of her children. She successfully competed against the men and beat them. She was good looking and people liked her as a person, but even though she was a real success story of how you can win and stay a woman, these women's groups only saw that one thing and lost their minds. When asked about abortion Palin said she did not agree with it but would support the laws of the land she served........I think that says it best. And you will be helping people like Obama get elected at the same time, cutting your nose off to spite your face. Now who is stuck on the excuses? It was okay not to support the conservative because you believe he was weak and there would have been no difference? Well I do not agree, at the very least he would have blocked things like this healthcare bill, ever hear of prevention? While nobody including your precious isolationist Ron Paul would have gotten much done with a liberal congress, there is something to be said about prevention as well. An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure, if nothing else McCain would have been a form of prevention to block the worse things the liberals could do to the fablic of America. This healthcare entitltment will not go away, this is what happens when good people like you (yes your a good person, I don't think your bad) gets disheartened. Back at you, your posts are all about how your refusing to support conservatives didn't really matter, your state carried McCain anyway and how McCain was weak so he would have made no difference but we both know that no matter how weak you think he was, things like this healthcare bill would naver have passed, and now we have it, not there is a new entitlement for America, all because many people took their eye off the ball and either directly, or indirectly supported Obama as President. That was a good dodge of the point, I did not say a single bad thing about Chi, not one. I was showing her respect for supporting those who believe what she believes and I see no real fault for a liberal to help a fellow liberal get elected. My point was that while a liberal helping a liberal is expected, it is not expected for a vocal conservative like you and hugo to support the liberal as well.

He has said several times he did not vote for McCain and the way he attacks Palin like Cujo, you can tell he would never vote for the conservative ticket. Right there is why decent conservatives will not run for office very often. You completely distort and lie about their possitions. Palin is as much a socialist as you are. Just because someone supports the laws of the land that does not make them a socialist. Taking the oil away from the people who own it without compensation would have been comminust though, is that the system you want? Again, nobody was talking about party but who can "WIN" an election in that party. If you vote for Ron Paul when the only conservative running for office against the liberal is McCain then you in reality helped the liberal to win. Why you feel turning your back on conservative values is served by helping Obama get elected I have no idea. Vote for anyone during the run off, but once the game is narrowed down to the final two people, one conservative and one liberal, then it is time to make your mark, either you support conservatives or you don't. Voting for anyone but McCain was a vote for liberals. Again, this is about splintering when the liberals do not splinter, we are at a disadvantage when a large number of people like you refuse to stick together to at least limit some of the things like this healthcare bill. I remember many people giving Chi a hard time for voting for Obama but you know what, Chi is very liberal so she voted the way she has always vocally believed, but you guys, you cry and cry about how you want the Nation to return to conservative values but when the game is on the line, you vote to support Obama, I just have to say that your more responsible for Obama getting elected than Chi was, so back at you... Thanks RO for Obamacare.

Because of the independents like you true, you guys handed the election to Obama because of the splintering. Normally conservative people had excuses not to support the only conservative with a chance to win, and their failure to vote conservative caused things like this healthcare bill to be passed. I just hope these splinter groups learned their lesson, sleeping at the wheel leads to people like Obama

I am not the one trying to spend a lot of time talking about a guy who was not good enough to get his party nomination. I am not the one talking about "did you know that" when I said myself that he was a Republican so why do you waste time saying it over and over again? Becuse that is better than admitting that you knew only one of two people could win, and you did not vote for the one who was a Conservative minded person. When you admit you helped to add to the splintering of the Conservative people, then how can you not agree that the splintering helps the liberals? They might not like it, but at the end of the day they stick together, people like you do not. Voting the way you want to vote is your right RO, but stop pretending to believe in Conservative values when you refuse to help the most conservative person who can win the election. You know when you cast your vote that your actually helping people like Obama by witholding your support from the Conservative who can beat him. And guess what, why would a more conservative person want to run for office when people like you run them down so much? Why would anyone want to be ripped apart from all directions? If you were more supportive of conservatives of all degree then that wouls encourage other conservative minded people to get into the game.

Well the next round of fighting seems to be in the courts. Several States have promised to sue over the question if mandating Americans to purchase insurance is constitutional. Obama and most of the Democrats claim it is exactly the same as forcing people to purchase auto insurance but the reply is that driving is a priveledge, not a right so mandates to support their priveledge is reasonable, while living is not a priveledge and should not be punnished by requiring the living to purchase something they will be forced to pay for during their entire time living. So what do you guys think? Is it constitutional?

Just a 'little bit'? I think it was a lot of freedom, consider that no matter what the voters wanted, the Elite Washington crowd brushed it aside and did as they pleased. That is not freedom, that is not democracy, and it certainly is not represenative Government either if the people who elect you say no and you tell them to screw off. In fact, our Government now looks a lot like a dictatorship where Obama demanded this of his party to save his Presidency and they set aside everything else to do as he comanded. Not because it was the right thing to do, if this was the right thing to do as they all agreed on, then this would have passed 7 months ago when there was nothing that could stand in their way. No, most of the votes had to be purchased with arm twisting, bribes, and closed door deals that nobody will ever find out about. So much for transparancy and a new Washington.

He was a Republican but did not receive the nomination. The only conservative minded person who could have won the election was McCain, any vote for someone other then McCain was a vote for Obama. Every political expert said it was the independents who gave Obama the election.

Nice two-step there RO, but if you know that your vote cannot help a conservative minded person win, then your intentionally helping the liberal win, so while you claim with words to believe in conservative values, your actions prove you desire things like this healthcare bill to pass. You could have helped to prevent this kind of thing, but instead you decided to help it by intentionally witholding your support from conservative minded people who could win. How much harm is done by these liberals while you waste time in the woods searching for a perfection and purity that does not exist? Divide et impera = divide and rule.

I agree completely, we are slowly losing our productive class because we are eating away the purpose of being productive. Why work hard to take care of yourself and your family if the Government will do it for you without you lifting a finger? Pride? Self-respect? How long can people look around and see the lazy get everything for free before the workers decide to stop working? Much easier to use prevention instead of trying to cure or fix what has already been done. Now that the sleeping slpinters can see how harmful it is to not be in the game, maybe they will decide to join forces on the same field with those who are trying to fight things like this healthcare bill from being created in the first place. Sitting on the sidelines or running off to play a different game than the one at hand only helps legislation like this come to be a reality. I seriously doubt there will be any way of 'fixing' this damage, the horse has already got out of the barn, too late to close the door.

Nice dodge but how about answering my question, why is it you cannot understand that splintering, being divided actually helps those you claim to despise? The Healthcare bill was passed last night because of the splintered malcontents who put the Liberals into power. You only have yourself to blame for their success. Again, I understand your point in theory, but if they are sticking together, and we are splintering apart, we cannot win. Divide et impera = divide and rule.

Always great to see new members, welcome to the forum

I thought you were getting a geek? All is not lost, it is a Dell right? Use a second computer and go to Dell and download the drivers you need, get the network drivers and you might need the USB controller drivers too for the wireless adapter. Just take it one at a time and you will be surprised at how easy it is. Put a antivirus on it if you can before you start messing around on the internet. Keep calm, it is not as hard as most people think, you can do it.

Your refusal to bend makes it close to impossible for a conservative to get elected because of the splintering, why is it that concept is beyond your understanding? Did you ever hear the old saying "United we stand, Divided we fall"? Divide et impera = divide and rule.