Creation/Evolution

[Ahhlee]

I'm selfish and like to believe both are possible.

One can't deny that the scientific community has made great strides in showing us how evolution is indeed possible! I think it's brilliant how life can always find a way to adapt to adversity.

On the other hand, I can't help but believe life is a gift from a higher source for the fact that we have a soul. Maybe it's because I have this weird psychic stuff that happens to me, but I know there is existance beyond our physical form...that even when we die, we still ARE. It's not something I can prove nor would I want to force my opinions on others, but it's a belief that I cherish and one that brings me comfort.

I remember one pastor asking us, "If you were walking along the beach, and discovered a pocket watch keeping perfect time, would you believe that through erosion and time the ocean had created that watch or would you feel it had been 'made'?"

I always thought that was an interesting analogy.

 

[emkay64]

Ali...your philosophies are pretty much identical to the scientists'...if you read the second article it's an interview. Very good! I like his outlook....I can accept a metaphysical "something". I'm not so arrogant as to believe that man is the highest echelon. I just don't believe in a being that said "let there be light"...and lo and behold there it was. Why doesn't he say "be gone pollution"...or something of value. I don't believe because I have nothing to make it feasible to me. This is not to say that I wouldn't believe, I just don't have anything even tangible that would lead me to believe it enough to "worship".

 

[RoyalOrleans]

There was a story a few years ago that many people who were spouting 9/11 as an inside job were also evolution believers......now that sounds about right.

What?

I saw this and nearly ripped my computer off my desk and through it in the dumpster.

Alright there was a story, however, evidentally, a story about people who didn't have their sh!t together to prove 9/11 was an inside job. As I have heard of such theories, and I don't doubt the theorists who could be god-fearing christians or evolutionists, but their stories are debunked time and time again.

Why would you post something like that? To get to me? You are a constant pain, TJ. You can not carry on an intelligent discussion without getting all bent out of shape over a few who might agree with your opposition. You are petty. You are pitiful. You are wretched. And I truly feel sorry for those who come in contact with you, personally, every single day of the week.

I am sure that you have read my posts on patriotism, you have read my threads about the current administration's follies, because I have read your responses. And yet, your narrow little mind out of pride and wrath, posted such a remark to burn the smouldering coals of the memories of being under fire and watching as a friend was dragged away from his position in horror.

You have evoked pure hate in my mind, again, with your callous and prideful boast. I will not forget how much you hate your own liberty, country, and freedom by accusing me of believing that 9/11 was an inside job.

And when you reply, and I know you will because pride won't let you leave it alone, you will say "RO, I wasn't talking about you." with a half ass sh!t eating grin. My reply will be along the lines of, "Don't worry about how I feel, because I know in my mind that you meant what you said and have no intensions of seeing otherwise. Pride is an insufferable bitch to overcome. "

PS: Eat sh!t and die.

 

[timesjoke]

Wow....this is where we part company TJ. A civil debate is not possible with you. I guess you don't practice those values you were so proud of. Berating people because of their beliefs...hmmm...weren't you saying you never did that?

I don't attack people in personal ways just because I am mad and wanting to strike out at them, this is what many people here do and I never do that. It is purely from frustration, anger, and a need to make themselves feel better when they know they do not possess the ability to debate me in certain topics.



I on the other hand have no problem making a factual observation on garbage when I see it. I am not speaking from anger or an agenda to hurt someone's feelings.

You heard the chromosomal part and completely deflected the genetic material. They may have the same number chromosomes (pig and cat) but they don't share genetic material TJ. The chromosome is what houses the DNA (the box so to speak)...or genetic material, made different by our parentage. Your analogy is extremely uneducated for an educated person such as yourself. You cannot be so arrogant as to put yourself ahead of a you professor in evolutionary DNA? I love that he's a believer in god and has an open mind enough to accept truths and question inconsistencies. What a brilliant mind.

Well you need to go back to what I posted and read it again because I took the point head on and explained why this does not prove anything factual, it is just another assumption among many assumptions.


Did you not see me explain why it is wrong by looking foward? If the 'human' was born from apes, why can't we mate? If it is because of the fused chromosomes then there would have been no way to mate with the first generation and continue the new strain. All it takes is a little logic and putting your mind at the time of the "first" change to see how it had to have happened and find the huge holes in the theory.

I'm selfish and like to believe both are possible.

One can't deny that the scientific community has made great strides in showing us how evolution is indeed possible! I think it's brilliant how life can always find a way to adapt to adversity.

On the other hand, I can't help but believe life is a gift from a higher source for the fact that we have a soul. Maybe it's because I have this weird psychic stuff that happens to me, but I know there is existance beyond our physical form...that even when we die, we still ARE. It's not something I can prove nor would I want to force my opinions on others, but it's a belief that I cherish and one that brings me comfort.

I remember one pastor asking us, "If you were walking along the beach, and discovered a pocket watch keeping perfect time, would you believe that through erosion and time the ocean had created that watch or would you feel it had been 'made'?"

I always thought that was an interesting analogy.

I have been saying the same thing, science has proven that "Adaptation" is possible, but not the ability to form a new species from an old species, that part is purely unproven theory.






RO, you can take it any way you want to take it, I really do not give two squirts of urine about your wrong assumptions. You can come here and call all people of faith stupid, uneducated, or any other thing that is looking down your nost at all people of faith and to you, that is perfectly reasonable and justified but if I say some people who believe in evolution also believe in 9/11 being an inside job, suddenly your vagina gets all twisted in a knot and you scream foul.


Well too bad, I am not responsible for your brittle feelings, I never tried to hurt you but I was not trying to "not" hurt you either, I was just making a point that some people will jump on any theory that supports what they "want" to be true RO.


And there is the point I was making if your interested. Those people hate the Government or at least Bush and 9/11 being an inside job filled their need to hate and they jumped onboard the theory not so much because they really had facts to prove their theory but because it made them feel good about themselves to be attacking Bush.



In many ways I feel the vast majority of people who push the evolution theory are doing this for a similar reason, they reject the idea of God so the evolution theory is their way of embracing their rejection.


This was my point, get mad, stay mad, accept I didn't mean anything personal or not, I really do not care, I know the point I was making was not one of a negative nature to attack anyone so if you or someone else turns it into something else, that is on you, not me.


Peace.

 

[emkay64]

Experiments in Evolution

More junk science for TJ.

BTW...you have refuted nothing, nor have made a single educated argument on the topic.

I wonder what would have happened without scientific exploration. If we just decided to say...ehhh...the creator did it. My guess....we'd still be eating twigs and berries and rubbing two sticks together.

 

[RoyalOrleans]

Experiments in Evolution

More junk science for TJ.

BTW...you have refuted nothing, nor have made a single educated argument on the topic.

I wonder what would have happened without scientific exploration. If we just decided to say...ehhh...the creator did it. My guess....we'd still be eating twigs and berries and rubbing two sticks together.

Exactly!

TJ has not given an example, a link, an article, or something a bit more tangible to sway thought in his favor.

That was the point, I was laboring to make TJ understand throughout this whole debacle. And he won't read the entire article, either, he'll debunk the headline with broad generalizations only believable to those who rally on the side of ignorance.

TJ brings nothing to the table.

 

[RoyalOrleans]

Blah blah blah!

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."

- Charles Darwin

I don't expect you to understand that quote, I mean it is a Charles Darwin (who never refuted a Creator) original.

 

[timesjoke]

And I have asked you several times for a specific thing you want harder facts on RO and you refuse to answer because your scared of actually getting an answer. Your the one being general while i am giving hard specific answers.



emkay, what part of the human from ape example I offered do you believe does not make sense?


There has to be a "start" somewhere, the departure from ape happens, humans cannot mate with apes but all sorts of lother creatures who are realated can mate so what is it that stops Humans from mating if we are in fact so very close?


When the first human was born from an ape, how did it continue? Do you believe many spontanious accidents of evolution happened all at the same time to never be repeated again? Did aliens come down and impregnate the apes and that is why they are similar but different at the same time? There has to be a reasonable answer to make this possible but it seems to me that evolution cannot fill in that blank.

 

[snafu]

I'm selfish and like to believe both are possible.

One can't deny that the scientific community has made great strides in showing us how evolution is indeed possible! I think it's brilliant how life can always find a way to adapt to adversity.

On the other hand, I can't help but believe life is a gift from a higher source for the fact that we have a soul. Maybe it's because I have this weird psychic stuff that happens to me, but I know there is existance beyond our physical form...that even when we die, we still ARE. It's not something I can prove nor would I want to force my opinions on others, but it's a belief that I cherish and one that brings me comfort.

I remember one pastor asking us, "If you were walking along the beach, and discovered a pocket watch keeping perfect time, would you believe that through erosion and time the ocean had created that watch or would you feel it had been 'made'?"

I always thought that was an interesting analogy.

That's why I said God created evolution. No one can deny evolution but how did it start? I do believe in a higher power but I have a hard time with the bible.

 

[snafu]

I also have a hard time with the resurrection of Christ. Why would he need a physical body?

 

[emkay64]

Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed
5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.

-----------------------------

Species can split...as is obvious from the stickleback example. As for why we can't mate with apes...well...you can if you want to...but I wouldn't advise it. As for aliens and impregnation...I dunno much about that...sorry.

 

[snafu]

Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed
5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.

-----------------------------

Species can split...as is obvious from the stickleback example. As for why we can't mate with apes...well...you can if you want to...but I wouldn't advise it. As for aliens and impregnation...I dunno much about that...sorry.

We didn?t evolve from an ape. We evolved from man that had ape like traits.

 

[RoyalOrleans]

And I have asked you several times for a specific thing you want harder facts on RO and you refuse to answer because your scared of actually getting an answer. Your the one being general while i am giving hard specific answers.

I don't want harder facts from YOU, TJ! You nimrod! I want to know where you developed your thoughts and how you arrived at your assumption. You gave me nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing! I am reading the instructions to make Hamburger Helper and your telling me how much you like the taste.

You fail. Epic fail! You won't direct me to anything other than your own opinion, because you fear... you FEAR to be refuted. Your opinions are not without merit, but I don't believe you. Enlighten me! You are not the authority here! Enlighten me!

Jesus Christ, you are intolerably ignorant.

When the first human was born from an ape, how did it continue? Do you believe many spontanious accidents of evolution happened all at the same time to never be repeated again? Did aliens come down and impregnate the apes and that is why they are similar but different at the same time? There has to be a reasonable answer to make this possible but it seems to me that evolution cannot fill in that blank.

So a magical being afloat in the stratosphere made existence in six days? Eve was born of Adam's rib? The Great Deluge covered the entire world? Come on, man.

There are huge holes in Creationism, but you don't know that because you won't read a single article we've posted. Nor will you post anything an authority on the topic has to say to back up your claim.

 

[timesjoke]

Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed
5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.

But again your looking at everything from foward back. I don't know how else to say this but you have to look at "the first" human and ask why? You have to ask how that human survived if it was so different from it's other species. You have to ask if this is abnormal, how did it pass on it's traits? How did the new traits get inserted when modern DNA science tells us that new traits that the parents do not hold cannot be possible in their offspring?


If a human was an accident, then why more accidents? Was something causing the accidents to happen? An outside source or cause?

By looking foward, you see it is a lot harder to explain why a new species is created that is why they always ignore the thousands of questions they cannot answer and instead always insist on looking backward.

Species can split...as is obvious from the stickleback example. As for why we can't mate with apes...well...you can if you want to...but I wouldn't advise it. As for aliens and impregnation...I dunno much about that...sorry.

If your talking about the seperate types they can mate with each other though so that is not a good example.

If one is just an offshoot of the other then they will retain the ability to mate. Humans not being able to mate with apes is a big deal that is glossed over by evolutionists because they can't explain why.

 

[emkay64]

The molecular evidence showed very clearly that chimpanzees are our closest living relatives, and so, logically, we must share an ancestor in common at some point in the past. This common ancestor, or concestor, wasn?t necessarily identical to modern chimpanzees- remember, all populations are in a state of evolutionary flux, it?s just that some are required by their environments to evolve faster than others. So although the human-chimpanzee concestor wasn?t a chimpanzee, we?d probably recognize it as being more chimpanzee than human if it were alive today.

So, humans and chimpanzees are both descended from an ape-like concestor. When did the lines split into human-only and chimpanzee-only lines? The answer may not be as cut and dry as you might think. The best theories based on the fossil evidence indicate that our concestor lived between 5 to 8 million years ago, at which point evolutionary forces caused one population to evolve human-like characteristics while the other line evolved more chimpanzee-like characteristics. However, new evidence has just been made available that shows by examining the human and chimpanzee genomes that human and chimpanzee ancestors diverged and then converged, before diverging for a final time less than 5 million years ago. Genetic analysis suggests that humans and chimpanzees evolved into separate species which then interbred, forming a hybrid species which then bred back into one of the parent populations. It?s not clear whether this human-chimpanzee hybrid returned to the human or the chimpanzee population, but the molecular evidence is clear that the hybridization did happen- the X chromosome has a particularly recent connection to the chimpanzee genome. This means that human-chimpanzee hybrid males would have been infertile, but the females were not, and thus returned back to the parental population, mixing chimpanzee and human genes each time. This new study by the Broad Institute in Massachusetts.

But regardless of the human-chimpanzee hybrids, eventually the two lines did split for good. And gradually, our ancestors changed from being something that was willing to mate with a chimpanzee, into something that would rather hunt them for food, train them for entertainment, or sequence their DNA. What was the first step? The first step, as it seems, is literally a step. A bipedal step, to be precise- the first thing to distinguish our ancestors from chimpanzee ancestors is the ability to walk upright. But being able to walk upright doesn?t earn the scientific, phylogenetic designation of human- we designate all human species by the genus ?Homo? as in our binomial, ?Homo sapiens.? But these first human ancestors weren?t human enough to be considered part of our genus, and instead are called, ?Australopithecus.? One species of this genus in particular is thought to have been ancestral to humans- Australopithecus afarensis, one specimen of which has been nicknamed, ?Lucy.? Like most of the Australopithecines, Lucy lived in Africa.

Lucy, and the rest of her species, resembled chimpanzees in a lot of ways, but one difference is obvious- she walked upright, like a human. And not just sometimes, the bone structure of her pelvis indicates that she was upright most of the time.

 

[emkay64]

There are a few species that are showing signs of adaptive evolution at the current time, and these are the subject of more intense scrutiny. One example is the apple maggot, which used to only attack hawthorn plants, but in the last century has switched hosts to attack apple trees. This may well lead to speciation, with two distinct species - one of which attacks hawthorne and the other apples. Another example is reproductive isolation in Culex pipiens mosquitoes (the primary vector of West Nile virus). Different populations of the mosquito have different gut bacteria, and it turns out that the gut bacteria are not compatible. Mosquitoes with one type of gut bacteria cannot successfully interbreed with those with the other variety of gut bacteria. This may also lead to speciation.

Something to watch in the "future".

 

[timesjoke]

I don't want harder facts from YOU, TJ! You nimrod! I want to know where you developed your thoughts and how you arrived at your assumption. You gave me nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing! I am reading the instructions to make Hamburger Helper and your telling me how much you like the taste.

You fail. Epic fail! You won't direct me to anything other than your own opinion, because you fear... you FEAR to be refuted. Your opinions are not without merit, but I don't believe you. Enlighten me! You are not the authority here! Enlighten me!

Jesus Christ, you are intolerably ignorant.

You can't handle the facts RO, you run from them just like you run from your spiritual side, it is the same thing. Your clinging to a sad excuse for science because it gives you comfort for your lack of faith.


I have asked you time and again what parts of the many basic concepts I have offered and you run away scared to death of specifics.



I will ask you a question being as you will not give me a specifit thing to respond to, where do all your traits that make you who you are come from? The environment or your two parents?

So a magical being afloat in the stratosphere made existence in six days? Eve was born of Adam's rib? The Great Deluge covered the entire world? Come on, man.

There are huge holes in Creationism, but you don't know that because you won't read a single article we've posted. Nor will you post anything an authority on the topic has to say to back up your claim.

How many times do I have to say that both creation and evolution suffer from the same lack of facts?

The examples you offer are from books made by man, not from God. Man has never done a single thing in a perfect way, what makes any of you think a human could create a perfect religion or book?

Six days to God could have been 50 million years to us. God could have moved foward or back in time as well being as his existence is outside of time and space. There are endless possibilities to explain human error in trying to worship a being that is outside of our understanding but I do know one very important thing, none of us, not the scientists or the religious people who made the Bible possible were actually there st the time.



Oh, I have read all the information, such as how do you think I knew to show the similiarities between the cats and pigs? I do not have to be brainwashed to have looked at the information you offered RO.

 

[timesjoke]

emkay,

All of that sounds good but if you look at the actual research you again see it is all based on assumption and backward looking connections. The genetic mixing their talking about is based on dating materials and assuming one part or another is from certain creatures. Almost all of that cannot be proven, it is identified based on assumption before testing so there is little hard fact in any of that.


All of that is like the star wars movies, look very realistic, but not true.


As far as adaptations are concerned, sure, I have always said all life has the ability to adapt within it's preset limits. Like fish who can change their sex, not in thousands of years but right now, it is built into their DNA as one of their traits.

 

[mercury]

Ali's last comment summed up my thoughts pretty well. I think both are possible.

I also have what many consider to be a weird take on the God stuffs, but I can't totally deny my upbringing and what the Catholic church teaches. It leaves me in my normal state of confusion.

 

[emkay64]

Your opinion is valid, but yet again...your "opinion" isn't validating the discussion at all. Ehh...I'm all done now. Think I'll consider the thread dead in the water. The title was creationism/evolution...and you have nothing to contribute. It's okay...another time maybe.