Fighting teen pregnancy

[Ahhlee]

Ali,Nobody said a woman cannot be concerned about real issues. Not me and not IWS.

If you are both arguing that women are incapable of seeing beyond their own petty jealousies, then yes....you are saying that.

You have both been stating "women" and "most women" - that implies the majority. I'm not insisting that there aren't a handful of women who are so superficial that they would dismiss Palin on account of jealousy over her attractiveness, but I am asking you to consider that these women are the minority. Most of us are not that irrational.

Your mixing two completely different things here and calling them the same. In one hand there are women who do just as you said and consider all the issues and make an informed decision. On the other hand there are women who slam Sarah on her fashion, attack her children, attack her husband (at least she has one), etc.....

THAT IS MY POINT! There are women...in fact, it's the majority of us...who consider all the issues and make informed decisions when it comes to something as important as electing our next national officials.

attack her husband (at least she has one)

What the **** does that have to do with anything?

All you have to do is ask yourself one simple question to see if your a hater.......
Did you ever attack her on a personal level?

If you ever found yourself slamming her because of her glasses or making fun of her daughter getting pregnant then you are one of the women I am describing. If your one of the women who had to go to those extra lengths to not only be vocal against her views but to also attack her as a person, well that is crossing the line of hatred.

You know what? I agree with her on some issues and disagree with her on others...I certainly don't hate her. I think people in general focused too much on her personal life and not enough on what she brought to the table politically. I'm sure not going to place all that blame on a small percentage of insecure women, however. Those men (not all) who detracted from the seriousness of her campaign by making her out to be some kind of *** kitten didn't do much to to help her overall in the polls either.

And by your logic, if a handful of men attack Obama on a personal level, that means I can qualify that by saying "Men are just jealous of Obama because they have an 'unreasonable' hatred of him". Seems like a baseless claim, doesn't it? Well...so is yours.

I made a point I would like you to speak on in my post to you, where have I ever called Obama a step backward for all men? Where have I called his children horrid names like the **** name liberals placed on Sarah's daughter? Where did I ever go past policies and fears of policies to come and go after Obama in the same ferocious way many people went after Sarah Ali?

I don't know if you personally have or haven't, but it's not very fun to be lumped into a category like that simply based on your gender, is it?

You can't possibly be trying to say you cannot see the difference I am speaking on......can you?

I'm fully aware. Can you not see my point as well?

I would like to point out what you have in your sig:
The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself. - Ben Franklin

Do you believe in this idea?

Well Obama and Biden do not. Neither does Pelosi or Reed.

Sarah Palin does.

Core values, the little details do not matter as much as the core values. At the core most of the Liberals in power do not want to follow the Constitution.......do you?

Where are you going with this? Why would I have that quote as a signature if I didn't believe in it? I live it and live by it every day.

 

[timesjoke]

If you are both arguing that women are incapable of seeing beyond their own petty jealousies, then yes....you are saying that.

You have both been stating "women" and "most women" - that implies the majority. I'm not insisting that there aren't a handful of women who are so superficial that they would dismiss Palin on account of jealousy over her attractiveness, but I am asking you to consider that these women are the minority. Most of us are not that irrational.

From my first post as well as my every reply starting with eddo clearly stated my comments were only about the women who have an unreasonable hatred of Sarah, why you keep trying to drag in all women I have no idea.

As far as the majority of women with or without the hatred of Sarah, almost all of the mainstream women's groups all said ugly things about Sarah so maybe more women have this hatred than your willing to admit to.

THAT IS MY POINT! There are women...in fact, it's the majority of us...who consider all the issues and make informed decisions when it comes to something as important as electing our next national officials.

But that is where we may have some room for assumption on both our parts, you assume few women have this hate, while I base my assumption from the women's groups that represent millions of women.

What the **** does that have to do with anything?

Many women cannot keep a husband, in fact single, never married women are the fastest growing segment of American society.....you don't think that can cause some jealousy as well when a woman who can't keep a man sees a woman who can?

You know what? I agree with her on some issues and disagree with her on others...I certainly don't hate her. I think people in general focused too much on her personal life and not enough on what she brought to the table politically. I'm sure not going to place all that blame on a small percentage of insecure women, however. Those men (not all) who detracted from the seriousness of her campaign by making her out to be some kind of *** kitten didn't do much to to help her overall in the polls either.

Why would it matter if men found her to be attractive........unless it fed into other women's insecurities?

And by your logic, if a handful of men attack Obama on a personal level, that means I can qualify that by saying "Men are just jealous of Obama because they have an 'unreasonable' hatred of him". Seems like a baseless claim, doesn't it? Well...so is yours.

No it is not, because you cannot offer an example of mainstream conservatives complaining about non-policy things with Obama.

But, mainstream women's groups and liberal leaders did attack Sarah on non-policy issues, that is driven by a standard stance in hate.....or possibly fear, maybe a combination.

I don't know if you personally have or haven't, but it's not very fun to be lumped into a category like that simply based on your gender, is it?

Fun or not is irrelivant.

It is true or untrue, that is all that matters. I from the start qualified my every statement to be only about women who have an unreasonable hatred of Sarah, if you do not share in this unreasonable hatred, clearly I am not talking about you.

The reason I asked you about me attacking Obama in personal ways was to show you how on the whole, even the most harsh conservative does not do these things. We attack the issues, not the person.

I'm fully aware. Can you not see my point as well?

That was never in question, I always saw your point, my only issue is your trying to insert those other women into my words as if I was speaking about them when I was always clear about my words only being about women who have the unreasonable hatred of Sarah.

Where are you going with this? Why would I have that quote as a signature if I didn't believe in it? I live it and live by it every day.

To show degrees Ali.

We can never find people who are 100% like us in all ways, we have to accept that as reality and try to find people who support the most core values and work from that point.

Sarah believed in the constitution and represented great accomplishment for women to beat men at their own game and not have to give up her womanhood in the process. You can't find a single Liberal woman who can say the same thing.

But many women don't care about core values, their hate is all that matters. If Sarah was plain looking you would not see the kinds of hate that was shown to her and you know it.

But core values are what really matter and if you truly support the idea behind that quote you could not possibly vote for Obama.

 

[Ahhlee]

From my first post as well as my every reply starting with eddo clearly stated my comments were only about the women who have an unreasonable hatred of Sarah, why you keep trying to drag in all women I have no idea.

As far as the majority of women with or without the hatred of Sarah, almost all of the mainstream women's groups all said ugly things about Sarah so maybe more women have this hatred than your willing to admit to.

But that is where we may have some room for assumption on both our parts, you assume few women have this hate, while I base my assumption from the women's groups that represent millions of women.

Many women cannot keep a husband, in fact single, never married women are the fastest growing segment of American society.....you don't think that can cause some jealousy as well when a woman who can't keep a man sees a woman who can?

Why would it matter if men found her to be attractive........unless it fed into other women's insecurities?

No it is not, because you cannot offer an example of mainstream conservatives complaining about non-policy things with Obama.

But, mainstream women's groups and liberal leaders did attack Sarah on non-policy issues, that is driven by a standard stance in hate.....or possibly fear, maybe a combination.

Fun or not is irrelivant.

It is true or untrue, that is all that matters. I from the start qualified my every statement to be only about women who have an unreasonable hatred of Sarah, if you do not share in this unreasonable hatred, clearly I am not talking about you.

The reason I asked you about me attacking Obama in personal ways was to show you how on the whole, even the most harsh conservative does not do these things. We attack the issues, not the person.

That was never in question, I always saw your point, my only issue is your trying to insert those other women into my words as if I was speaking about them when I was always clear about my words only being about women who have the unreasonable hatred of Sarah.

To show degrees Ali.

We can never find people who are 100% like us in all ways, we have to accept that as reality and try to find people who support the most core values and work from that point.

Sarah believed in the constitution and represented great accomplishment for women to beat men at their own game and not have to give up her womanhood in the process. You can't find a single Liberal woman who can say the same thing.

But many women don't care about core values, their hate is all that matters. If Sarah was plain looking you would not see the kinds of hate that was shown to her and you know it.

But core values are what really matter and if you truly support the idea behind that quote you could not possibly vote for Obama.

It boils down to this, TJ....

You believe any woman who disagrees with Palin's political agenda holds "unreasonable hatred" towards her and is therefore jealous.

You think any woman who disagrees with Palin lacks "core values".

Basically, you think every woman should be exactly like Sarah Palin.

Well, I hope one day you find your Sarah Palin clone so she can marry you and keep you.

Good luck.

 

[timesjoke]

It boils down to this, TJ....

You believe any woman who disagrees with Palin's political agenda holds "unreasonable hatred" towards her and is therefore jealous.

No, as I have said over and over, only those women who attack Sarah on a personal basis on non-policy issues are showing unreasonable hatered, not all women.

You inserted that other stuff yourself, not me.

You think any woman who disagrees with Palin lacks "core values".

Again, I have only spoke on those who have demonstrated real hate by attacking Sarah on personal levels, if a woman has never done this, then she has nothing to do with my comments at all.

Basically, you think every woman should be exactly like Sarah Palin.

Again those are your words, not mine, why you have to insert lies in the discussion I have no idea unless it is to cover the fact you can't support your side of the arguement in any other way.

I do believe Sarah ahould get a little more respect than to be called a major step backward for all women everywhere, but I believe we have settled where that kind of attack comes from.

Well, I hope one day you find your Sarah Palin clone so she can marry you and keep you.

Good luck.

You already know I have my great woman, hopefully I will always be someone she will love.

Ali,

You seem to set a pattern in most discussions about women to try and make a very narrow and specific discussion about one segment of women to be about all women no matter how many times someone says it is not about all women.

You just will not let yourself hear anything that is not what you want to hear.

What I believe your trying to hide now is how many women really do fit into this category of hate without good cause against Sarah. When all the major women's groups all come out and attack Sarah for things that have nothing to do with her policies and stands that tells me that most women who object to Sarah are doing so for reasons that have nothing to do with the policies.

Anyone who makes a personal attack is doing so out of anger, fear, or hate.

Your own attempts to put words in my mouth are motivated by the same three posibilities, I will not try to guess what one, but clearly I have never said any of the things you just assigned to me.

Tell me Ali, have you ever made personal attacks on Sarah?

 

[snafu]

Ali Ali Ali...

That's just to much double talk. I can't believe you two are arguing that.

If Sarah's "core values" are not the same then yes. How can you obscure what "core values" mean? No big government, less spending, religious beliefs but most important is pro life.

 

[Ahhlee]

No, as I have said over and over, only those women who attack Sarah on a personal basis on non-policy issues are showing unreasonable hatered, not all women.

It amazes me how you can make a statement like this...

Ali,
You seem to set a pattern in most discussions about women to try and make a very narrow and specific discussion about one segment of women to be about all women no matter how many times someone says it is not about all women.

and this....

What I believe your trying to hide now is how many women really do fit into this category of hate without good cause against Sarah. When all the major women's groups all come out and attack Sarah for things that have nothing to do with her policies and stands that tells me that most women who object to Sarah are doing so for reasons that have nothing to do with the policies.

And then turn right around and negate it with statements like that.

You simply don't get how offensive you really are.

Tell me Ali, have you ever made personal attacks on Sarah?

No.

 

[Ahhlee]

Ali Ali Ali... That's just to much double talk. I can't believe you two are arguing that.

If Sarah's "core values" are not the same then yes. How can you obscure what "core values" mean? No big government, less spending, religious beliefs but most important is pro life.

"Core values" is a very subjective term!

To some it may mean honor, sacrifice and service.

To another...***, family and country.

Another...live and let live.

Another...."So mote it be".

Yet another..."long live Allah".

And on, and on, and on...

 

[snafu]

"Core values" is a very subjective term!
To some it may mean honor, sacrifice and service.

To another...***, family and country.

Another...live and let live.

Another...."So mote it be".

Yet another..."long live Allah".

And on, and on, and on...

Well that was my point.

 

[timesjoke]

It amazes me how you can make a statement like this...

There is no contradiction to what I have said. I clearly say I am only talking about the women who have an "unreasonable" hatred and I also say you may be downplaying how many there are......but I "NEVER" said all women, that comes only from you and your need to insert things I never said into the conversation to give you excuses to get upset.

You simply don't get how offensive you really are.

Well you want to be offended so you simply make up things I never said to be upset about....there is absolutely nothing I can do about what you do inside your own mind to delude yourself.

I love and respect women more then 99% of the male population I can gurantee you that. I was raised to respect women by my mother "AND" my father both from direct instruction and from example. Just because I call a spade a spade without being concerned with being PC, that does not mean I think women are lesser beings than me or less deserving of respect.

If your idea of showing women respect is to lie or turn a blind eye to reality then there is nothing I can do about that.

No.

Then your not included in anything I have said about women showing an unreasonable hatred of Sarah....why are you so upset?

 

[Ahhlee]

Well that was my point.

I misunderstood what you wrote, snaf. I thought you were saying the exact opposite...lol.

My apologies.

 

[Ahhlee]

Many women cannot keep a husband, in fact single, never married women are the fastest growing segment of American society.....you don't think that can cause some jealousy as well when a woman who can't keep a man sees a woman who can?

You'll never stop throwing out "not so subtle" slams and garbage like this, will you? You claim to lift women up with one hand while shoving their faces in the mud with the other.

Feel free to keep endearing yourself to the female members of the forum. Smart, funny women capable of independent thought who are eventually going to tire of the bullsh!t and avoid the site altogether on account of the constant stream of disrespect from guys like you.

And once you've completed your task of ridding the site of "unreasonable" women folk, you can lead the fellows in one giant circle jerk and discuss politics, chassis and the origin of beer while you do it.

 

[ImWithStupid]

I don't care what either of you say. I'm standing by my statement that women, by nature, are catty toward one another and it's often over another women being better looking, more successful or marrying well.

 

[Ahhlee]

I don't care what either of you say. I'm standing by my statement that women, by nature, are catty toward one another and it's often over another women being better looking, more successful or marrying well.

Whatever. You're just looking forward to the site circle jerk.

I bet you even have it marked on your calendar.

 

[timesjoke]

You'll never stop throwing out "not so subtle" slams and garbage like this, will you? You claim to lift women up with one hand while shoving their faces in the mud with the other.
Feel free to keep endearing yourself to the female members of the forum. Smart, funny women capable of independent thought who are eventually going to tire of the bullsh!t and avoid the site altogether on account of the constant stream of disrespect from guys like you.

And once you've completed your task of ridding the site of "unreasonable" women folk, you can lead the fellows in one giant circle jerk and discuss politics, chassis and the origin of beer while you do it.

Again you love to try and make what I say sound larger than it really is. You keep trying to drag up supposed comments by me putting down women in general but again, read what I said.

I started with a fact that single, never married women are the fastest growing segment of society. This is fact so I see no reason to be upset over me stating fact.

Then I offered a premise that maybe some of these women who cannot keep a man might show some jealousy tword a woman who can........is that really that much of a reach Ali?

You claim I will drive away you and other women but why Ali? It seems to me most of what your getting upset over is your own assumptions and words you insert into my mouth so if you learn to just see what I actually say and not read more into it than is actually there you will not have so many issues.

Your problem is your doing exactly what so many women do......your holding onto a grudge. We did not get along well at the jungle and you refuse to let go of your anger. Your fitting into the typical female bahavior in that link IWS posted where it talks of women who hate for eternity and never let hard feelings go.

I have gone out of my way to try and get along with you, even played and joked in the timesjoke thread in my way of showing you that I do not ever hold grudges and I am willing to start from scratch if other people are also willing.

The question is now....are you willing?

Can you let it go? Can you stop letting your issues add poo to the game?

When you said you had never insulted Sarah in a personal way I said you did not fit into anything I have said then.......so why are you still so sore?

My hand is out to you, can you take it?

 

[jokersarewild]

So, it looks like this thread is three different arguments in one:

1. Teens need to stop having babies...

2. Welfare should stop...

3. Sarah Palin is hot.

1. As for the first, you all are beating a dead horse. None of you have come up with a plan that is feasible. The two most prevalent that I've seen are the "pay people to stop doing dumb things", and "breeding licenses". Paying people not to do stupid things is a horrible idea. I mean, we're dealing with CHILDREN for the love of ***. Parents seem to have a really difficult time actually controling their kids. It's quite simple, really. If you are ANY sort of parent, you know your child pretty **** well. You know what to say to make them feel guilty enough not to do something, or how to make them feel good for not doing it.. That's what it really comes down to. You have to treat the problem as if you were telling children what not to do. They don't do that. They treat them like they should have some sort of "choice". (Not the parents, the various methods of telling these little asshats what they "shouldn't" do). It's not about grounding (unless that will actually teach your kid a lesson). It's about actual, real-world punishment. "Oh, you're pregnant? And Billy is the father? Well, Billy is 17 and you're 14. You know what that means, Suzie? He's going to jail for statutory rape because you couldn't keep your legs closed."

If that doesn't get the message across, well...

You brought them into this world, you can take 'em out of it.

Oh, and breeding licenses are stupid. The idea is stupid. (Pretty sure it was just a joke on the thread here, but I know people who actually believe it's a good idea."

2. Welfare

"Welfare" itself is such a broad term that it encompasses EVERYTHING that even remotely deals with financial assistance. The thing is, there are actual reasons for it. Despite what all of you silly conservative/right people say (or opinions swaying to that side about this issue), there are, in fact, people that are in need of these programs for specifically what they were originally intended for: people down on their luck. Lost your job because of the economy? Unemployment. Trying to make ends meet with a ty, minimum wage job that can barely pay for (while your bosses make bank)? Partial unemployment. I mean, who's to say that guy doesn't work his *** off and earn every dime he makes at his job AND is given to him to help with the fact that his job doesn't pay much? People really need to take a step back, get the **** off of their pedastals, and look at life.

So anyway...trying to feed your family, but you're either jobless because of the economy/layoffs/whatever, or you work a job that makes it hard to feed them? (Mind you, family could include younger siblings, parents that cant work because of a disability, etc) Well, you got food stamps. And for those people who can't work (various disabilities, including missing arm/leg/other vital body part, mental disorder, etc), there's disability.

And to the argument of "Natural Selection!" and all of that other bull, welcome to ORGANIZED SOCIETY, gents. If the other guy has paid taxes during his life, and is currently ed, then welcome to real life, people. He's getting back what he paid in. Seems **** fair to me.

People will always try to trick/play/beat the system. We look at those people as ******** and low-lifes. Doesn't mean there's a problem with the program itself nor all of the people in it.

3. Sarah Palin is hot.

Yes.

 

[timesjoke]

So what?

Give up? Do nothing? Stop trying?

I do not buy the 'give up' mentality and certainly not when we are talking about kids ruining their life before it is ever started. This program is having great success with the girls who are at the highest risk for teen pregnancy, hard to argue with success.

If paying them with college money (no direct funds) is what it takes to reduce welfare payments then why not? I call it a win/win situation. Not only did you avoid putting two people on lifetime welfare, but you have also taken the same girl and offered her a higher education and a greater respect for herself.........oh don't forget the higher education means she will most likely get a good job and pay some taxes into the system versus the other option that is all massive Government spending without ever getting anything in return.

Welfare done by the community by private people is a positive thing and builds a feeling of respect and responsibility to the one getting the help.

Welfare run By the Government is seen as "free money" and has the opposite effect. It is pure waste before the person ever gets a dime anyway because the Government cannot get past their need for buracracy that gobbles up most of the funds anyway.

There is no gurantee of prosperity in life, the promise is for equal opportunity.....not equal results.

 

[jokersarewild]

Actually, there's a fellow named Jonathan Swift who made a modest proposal about the situation. It's a good read. Link

 

[timesjoke]

Well it is certainly one idea of what to do with the children after they are already here but again that mentality is based on the notion that we must give up on the girls themselves as lost.

I do not believe giving up is the answer no matter how many exagerated ideas some come up with to try and misdirect or otherwise belittle attempts to find cures for our problems.

The question should not be what do we do with unwanted children but how do we help girls so they do not get pregnant with the children in the first place?

 

[jokersarewild]

Haha, the whole "Modest Proposal" thing was a joke, TJ.

And you're right, we shouldn't give up on them. We should eat them too. I bet 13 year old prosti-tot tastes DELICIOUS!

 

[timesjoke]

I know it was a joke but it also is a good example of where people believe the problems are at when they think about unwanted pregnancies.

It is all about what to do with the babies instead of prevention.