Head in the sand ****ers.

[Jhony5]

Posted by Builder:

Righto, you brought up the Pentagon, Jhony5.

Yepper. I started it, and I finished it. I'll do the same with the WTC crapola.

Why is it avoided like the black plague by NIST, and the media, and the gov?

Your asserting that its being "avoided". Its not being avoided. Its been addressed and theres nothing there. Lets lay it out then shall we? Logistically.
1) The powers that be (presumably the American Government) must secure the services of Muslim Al-Quida operatives.

2) The operatives must not only be trained to fly a passenger jetliner, but they must be trained to crash them into the designated building within only a few floors of the pre-installed demolition devices. To miss their mark would allow for an obvious explosion to far from the impact area, which would thus compromise the conspiracy. As well they cannot strike too close to the pre-installed devices as they might damage them thus not permitting them to work properly. This narrows the margin of error for the EXACT impact zone to only a few floors. A mighty task for a man whom has never once in his entire life flown an actual airplane, let alone a jetliner.

3) We must now establish motive. The motive I'm sure you will sight as being cause for such an event would be the start of the war on terror. The motivation for the war on terror? To secure Americas place in the ME in order to secure oil reserves for profit. Or just to start a war against Islam. You choose. I suggest that its not necessary for the WTC towers to actually fall down in order to have cause for the war on terror. 2 hijacked airplanes crashing into the WTC, 1 crashing into the Pentagon, and yet another one that was due to crash into an unspecified target, shows ample cause for military action against whatever faction was named responsible. In other words, to go through the great risk and implausible logistics of arranging for the towers to crumble to the ground, is highly unnecessary. Simple overkill and not worth the risk of the extra steps needed for this to be successful.

Now debate me straight on this bud. Answer each line of my post with a rebuttal. Then we go from there. If you need tissues to cry into, I suggest Puffs brand with aloe. They are remarkable absorbent and have a silky touch for your sensitive skin.

 

[builder]

Yepper. I started it, and I finished it. I'll do the same with the WTC crapola.

You finished nothing. You posted the words of another, and you were shown how easily and quickly images and movie clips can be altered to fit an agenda.

Your asserting that its being "avoided". Its not being avoided. Its been addressed and theres nothing there.

It's been avoided like the plague. Of all the demolitions, the causality, and the video evidence, are so plainly in contradiction to the excuses offered, that blind Freddy would not be convinced of the "official" line. Spot fires on two or three floors, and the call to "pull it" are widely known to be fact. No building in history has been brought down by spot fires on a few floors.

Lets lay it out then shall we? Logistically.

You mean in your logic? This should be a yawn.

1) The powers that be (presumably the American Government) must secure the services of Muslim Al-Quida operatives.

Why? It was Saudi nationals, not Al Quaeda that were framed for the hijackings.

2) The operatives must not only be trained to fly a passenger jetliner, but they must be trained to crash them into the designated building within only a few floors of the pre-installed demolition devices.

The pre-installed demolition devices would not be troubled by impact. They are electronically set off remotely. The possibility that the airliners were not hijacked, and the planes flown remotely, has been aired.

To miss their mark would allow for an obvious explosion to far from the impact area, which would thus compromise the conspiracy.

Dream on. There were explosions in the basements of those towers before they were hit.

As well they cannot strike too close to the pre-installed devices as they might damage them thus not permitting them to work properly.

Strawman argument. Red ****ing herring. Get to the point.

This narrows the margin of error for the EXACT impact zone to only a few floors.

Why? Pre-installed charges will not explode unless detonated. Besides, there was a big enough explosion when the plane/s hit. What's another explosion withing a fireball gonna do? Sweet **** all is what.

A mighty task for a man whom has never once in his entire life flown an actual airplane, let alone a jetliner.

If you follow the party line of created personas flying those craft.

3) We must now establish motive.

Yes, by following the money trail, we will find the perps. We have Silverstein agreeing to "pull" WTC 7 that has just been insured, guaranteeing him a seven billion dollar windfall on a recent lease agreement. We have the tenants of that building, the CIA, "losing" documents linking major politicians with Enron's collapse, amongst hundreds of other controversial cases. I could go on, but I'll save the best for later.

The motive I'm sure you will sight as being cause for such an event would be the start of the war on terror.

Well that plan was on the cards for at least a decade before the event.

The motivation for the war on terror?

There is no war on terror. That is an excuse to extend executive power, and override congress. Wake up, Jhony5.

To secure Americas place in the ME in order to secure oil reserves for profit.

America has secured its place in the ME. Saudi Arabia. The concern was that Iraq and Iran were making plans to deal oil in the Euro, rather than the petro-dollar, weakening the US economy.

Or just to start a war against Islam. You choose.

Pfffft. Vote-catching is what this religious posturing is.

I suggest that its not necessary for the WTC towers to actually fall down in order to have cause for the war on terror. 2 hijacked airplanes crashing into the WTC, 1 crashing into the Pentagon, and yet another one that was due to crash into an unspecified target, shows ample cause for military action against whatever faction was named responsible.

As crazy as many US people come across, I don't think for a minute that full-scale war is wanted by the masses. It takes emotive string-pulling and the skillful instillment of fear to convince the masses to agree to a war without end.

In other words, to go through the great risk and implausible logistics of arranging for the towers to crumble to the ground, is highly unnecessary.

To create a strike at the heart of what America represents, meaning international commerce, trade, and money, which is what the WTC is (was) was a coup de grace. The pentagon hit was just to convince the doubters that this was really serious ****. After all, the WTC was bombed once before, but the plebs really didn't give a flying ****, because they don't profit off international trade.

Simple overkill and not worth the risk of the extra steps needed for this to be successful.

In your mind, maybe it was overkill.

Now debate me straight on this bud. Answer each line of my post with a rebuttal.

Sure. But quit wallowing in the last year. I've been following this saga from the start, and I've researched it back fifty plus years.

Then we go from there. If you need tissues to cry into, I suggest Puffs brand with aloe. They are remarkable absorbent and have a silky touch for your sensitive skin.

Blow me boy.

 

[builder]

As an aside, I found this post in the alt.politics forum, and found it highly indicative of what I'm trying to say about dumb-**** flag-waving head in the sand ****ers.

Props to Starman;

Re: Are the Bush Neocons ushering in a feudalistic Dark Age?

Your strawman argument is a sop for like-minded wilted intellects like
yours; Are you aware, your core argument excuses the rightwing embrace
of fascist totalitarian ideals as defense of the single-party
corporate-kleptocracy against the social-justice and human-rights
demands of authentic self-rule democracy, by demonizing an entirely
bogus, contrived-parody of 'the alternative'?

So, I guess the question you MIGHT be qualified to answer (one of very,
very few, apparently, given evidence of your lowball-impaired grasp of
history, social movements and political plurality) is:

Are you a complicit stooge or an unwitting dupe?

The US has done far more to destroy budding representative democracies
than the former Soviet Union or China -- but your type of apologists
for Empire don't let facts get in the way of your ideological
convictions. The US lives high-on-the-fat of the world (food, gadgets,
energy supplies, cheap-labour, imported consumer and durable goods,
etc.) because US agencies, institutions and policies have blackmailed,
bribed, coerced or otherwise strongarmed the nations of the world into
accepting the US dollar as the world's reserve currency, while imposing
ruinous, impractical and unworkable extravagent IMF-World Bank
subsidized development schemes that resulted in enormous impoverishment
and imposition of privatization, military and political concessions --
with the net effect being the conditions of great wealth disparity and
significantly impaired locally-based economic development.

Your hostile knee-jerk reply to the observations posted would seem to
be due to your ignorance of the true role of US Foreign Policy in the
world as an opportunistic enabler for neocolonial Empire -- in direct
opposition to stated American principles and values.

Since you and your ilk so obviously despise the ideals of liberty,
equality, self-rule by an informed and engaged polity, human and civil
rights, egalitarianism, progressive reform, rule of law, and the
liberal tradition, why don't you just LEAVE, and go somewhere where
your brand of elite privelege, fascist dogma, rule by force and feudal
aristocracy are valued?

The rest of your rant-screed is too much nonsense to respond to --other
than pointing out the enormous lapse in your understanding that the
fascist (sic) theocracy of Iraq and Afghanistan were imposed by America
(the Ba'athe Party and Saddam Hussein), Made in America (AlQaeda) and
encouraged by America (Taleban, following the power-vacuum resulting
from America's manipulating, supporting and then abandoning Mujahadeen
with competing tribal loyalties, in the aftermath of the US-provoked
and inspired Soviet-Afghan war). In both situations, the US played a
major role in creating the conditions for enormous civil strife and
suffering, for very-narrow and selfish geostrategic interests. For
those who are ignorant of America's culpability for consequences
extending from repudiation of America's traditional values, SHAME ON
YOU!

I despise and loathe self-righteous, know-nothing blowhards whose grasp
of America's original principles is so deficient they aren't even aware
of their traitorous hypocrisy.

Starman

 

[Jhony5]

Hi ya Builder! How ya doing today? Me? Oh I'm super, thanks for asking.

Spot fires on two or three floors, and the call to "pull it" are widely known to be fact. No building in history has been brought down by spot fires on a few floors.

Spot fires? Come on Builder boy. Since when do you have down syndrome?

Over 20,0000 gallons of jet fuel will give ya a touch more then a "spot fire". Your choice of terminology is lacking severely. Be serious if your going to go head to head with me.

It was Saudi nationals, not Al Quaeda that were framed for the hijackings.

They were Al-Quida terrorist. Call them what you want. But thats what they represented. How can you say they were framed? When, among many many other things, they were video taped boarding the airplanes. Their voices were clearly heard over the communication lines after they had taken control of the aircraft. Your a terrorist sympathizer and you should be shot.

The pre-installed demolition devices would not be troubled by impact. They are electronically set off remotely

Your making this to easy for me bro.

You ever heard of wires? Electrical contacts? Ever heard of them? Huh? NO? Yes? No more technological then a car battery. Imagine a car battery hooked up to a transmitter. Now imagine an airplane full of thousands of gallons of fuel crashing into it. Do you think it would still function. You failed miserably to counter my very astute point.

Dream on. There were explosions in the basements of those towers before they were hit.

W H A T ??? Uhhhh.... you better post ****ing something to support that outrageous claim. NOW!

Strawman argument. Red ****ing herring.

Do you even know what these terms mean? You had better look it up in the debaters dictionary ya clueless tard ****er. That was a valid point I posed, and you tried to distract by dismissing it with buzzwords. How pathetic.

Thats not a red hearing. THIS IS>>>

If you follow the party line of created personas flying those craft.

Which was in response to this>>

Originally Posted by Jhony5:
A mighty task for a man whom has never once in his entire life flown an actual airplane, let alone a jetliner.

Nonsensical bullshit buddy, and you ****in' know it.

Pre-installed charges will not explode unless detonated.

My point was not that the charges would explode if struck by the planes, and you goddam well know it. My point was the devices would obviously fail if they were exploded into fragments. Common sense is all it takes to blow your feeble attempts at retort out of the realm of possibility. This is to easy.

We have Silverstein agreeing to "pull" WTC 7 that has just been insured, guaranteeing him a seven billion dollar windfall on a recent lease agreement.

Name one ****ing skyscraper that ISN'T insured by a beneficiary. This isn't motive. Its commonplace happenings being misconstrued into a flop of a conspiracy theory.

Well that plan was on the cards for at least a decade before the event.

This is true. Here in America we prefer proactive action to thwart future enemies from becoming to powerful. Its exactly this type of proactive awareness that has kept the world from witnessing the many world domineering factions from bringing constant war on a worldwide scale from occurring in the last 70 years. We all know that little piss-ant ***** Nations like Australia like to bitch about the very nations that keep them safe. Nothing new. The only terrorist that Aussies have had to deal with are the dreaded cane toads. Whatever shall you do?

There is no war on terror.

Ringgggg...Ringggggg...Hey Builder, It's for you. Taliban wants to know where the **** they disappeared to. Any idea?

As crazy as many US people come across

Oh ya, we Americans are soooo crazy. Common knowledge that we are the only civilized nation with wackjobs in our midst. Jackass!

It takes emotive string-pulling and the skillful instillment of fear to convince the masses to agree to a war without end.

Indeed. Al-Quida did alot of string pulling and fear mongering in the years leading up to 9/11. It worked. Turns out Americans fight like hell.

The pentagon hit was just to convince the doubters that this was really serious ****.

And what about flight 93? The remote controlled plane malfunctioned I suppose?

You posted the words of another

Ohhh...you mean like you and Hamza have repeatedly done throughout this thread? Including the above post that has little to nothing to do with this debate.


My point still stands in conflict with your theory that the towers fell from implosion. Logistically its highly implausible. Where is your evidence that there was any explosion when the buildings gave way to the immense mass contained above the large holes and raging ultra-hot fires in the structures?

Implosion detonations make a big ol boom when they go off. No boom was audible when the collapse came to be.


Explain that.

 

[builder]

Hi ya Builder! How ya doing today? Me? Oh I'm super, thanks for asking.

It's the pot. You got the munchies too?

Spot fires? Come on Builder boy. Since when do you have down syndrome?

Over 20,0000 gallons of jet fuel will give ya a touch more then a "spot fire". Your choice of terminology is lacking severely. Be serious if your going to go head to head with me.

You must be stoned. I'm talking about WTC 7. Hit by nothing. Go back to refutation 101 and try again, Hombre.

They were Al-Quida terrorist. Call them what you want. But thats what they represented. How can you say they were framed? When, among many many other things, they were video taped boarding the airplanes.

Nine of them were "caught" on video playing the tables on gambling boats in Florida after they crashed those jets. Do some research, Jhony5.

Their voices were clearly heard over the communication lines after they had taken control of the aircraft. Your a terrorist sympathizer and you should be shot.

Link us to these imaginary recordings. You are gov shill, and should be casterated to avoid a repeat of your errors.

Your making this to easy for me bro.

You mean embarrassing yourself? It comes natural to some people.

You ever heard of wires? Electrical contacts? Ever heard of them? Huh? NO? Yes? No more technological then a car battery. Imagine a car battery hooked up to a transmitter.

How are most bombs detonated these days, Jhony? Mobile phones. Try to keep up. Series detonations are actually triggered by one signal, and subsequent charges are detonated by slave signals, to keep the successive implosion timed accurately. No wires, Coyote. You're thinking is thirty years behind the times.

Now imagine an airplane full of thousands of gallons of fuel crashing into it. Do you think it would still function.

Yes. Wireless technology is with us as we speak. You've heard of WI-FI? Or bluetooth? How's about hotspots?

You failed miserably to counter my very astute point.

You made no points. I guess if you'd just toked a coupla spliffs it sounded pretty cool to you. Maybe.

W H A T ??? Uhhhh.... you better post ****ing something to support that outrageous claim. NOW!

**** you. You dribble on this ****, and demand I do something for you? When you start making sense, I will respond to your requests.

Do you even know what these terms mean? You had better look it up in the debaters dictionary ya clueless tard ****er. That was a valid point I posed, and you tried to distract by dismissing it with buzzwords. How pathetic.

You've been doing this from the start. You don't debate. You shill. Grow a brain, and ease up on the pot for a change. It took you near on an hour to post this dribble.

Thats not a red hearing. THIS IS>>>

You have nothing but red herrings, or dribble you pasted from others. Get original, or get the **** out of here.

Nonsensical bullshit buddy, and you ****in' know it.

Ad hominen retort. No basis in reality, Jhony. Either debate facts, or **** off.

My point was not that the charges would explode if struck by the planes, and you goddam well know it. My point was the devices would obviously fail if they were exploded into fragments. Common sense is all it takes to blow your feeble attempts at retort out of the realm of possibility. This is to easy.

The buildings were how tall? The charges were systematically exploded from the lower levels upwards. Video evidence of charges exploding in the basements is there for all to see, as are the systematic charges from the ground upwards. You claim that the planes destroyed the whole building in one ****ing hit. Now we all know how stoned you really are.

Name one ****ing skyscraper that ISN'T insured by a beneficiary. This isn't motive. Its commonplace happenings being misconstrued into a flop of a conspiracy theory.

The guy asked for the building to be "pulled", when firefighters claimed they could easily control the spot fires. Tell me why he wanted it "pulled" when it could be easily saved?

This is true. Here in America we prefer proactive action to thwart future enemies from becoming to powerful. Its exactly this type of proactive awareness that has kept the world from witnessing the many world domineering factions from bringing constant war on a worldwide scale from occurring in the last 70 years.

You're ****ing kidding.

We all know that little piss-ant ***** Nations like Australia like to bitch about the very nations that keep them safe. Nothing new. The only terrorist that Aussies have had to deal with are the dreaded cane toads. Whatever shall you do?

Another red herring. Stick to the debate.

Ringgggg...Ringggggg...Hey Builder, It's for you. Taliban wants to know where the **** they disappeared to. Any idea?

The Taliban is currently yeilding the largest crop of opium in history. Refute that.

Oh ya, we Americans are soooo crazy. Common knowledge that we are the only civilized nation with wackjobs in our midst. Jackass!

Highest suicide rate and murder rate in the "civilized" west. I won't mention the obesity factor, or the fact that you guys have a monopoly on school kids taking a gun to school and killing off thier comrades.

Indeed. Al-Quida did alot of string pulling and fear mongering in the years leading up to 9/11. It worked. Turns out Americans fight like hell.

Al Quaeda was trained by the CIA to fight the Russians is Afghanistan. It would help if you knew your own country's history, Jhony5.

And what about flight 93? The remote controlled plane malfunctioned I suppose?

I posited a hypothesis about WTC1 and 2. I mentioned nothing about that flight. It's the mark of a poor debater to put words in the mouths of opponents.

Ohhh...you mean like you and Hamza have repeatedly done throughout this thread? Including the above post that has little to nothing to do with this debate.

Hamza fights on his pat malone. Your point was?

My point still stands in conflict with your theory that the towers fell from implosion. Logistically its highly implausible. Where is your evidence that there was any explosion when the buildings gave way to the immense mass contained above the large holes and raging ultra-hot fires in the structures?

Building tend to fall down. Explosions tend to go upwards. I don't need to point you to any video evidence of WTC 1 and 2 "falling" upwards, nor the reporters on the ground hearing the explosions that started the implosion of those buildings. Keep your head in the sand, mister. Have another cone.

Implosion detonations make a big ol boom when they go off. No boom was audible when the collapse came to be.


Explain that.

That's kinda funny, if not for the thousands of innocents killed that day.

Plenty of explosions were heard, and are even detectable on the richter scale.

I sincerely hope you get better at this. So far, it's like five years have not passed, and no new information is available to you.

 

[builder]

Suck on this one, Jhony5.

Sept. 3, 2006

 

[builder]

Originally Posted by Jhony5

This is true. Here in America we prefer proactive action to thwart future enemies from becoming to powerful. Its exactly this type of proactive awareness that has kept the world from witnessing the many world domineering factions from bringing constant war on a worldwide scale from occurring in the last 70 years.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Jhony5.

On the morning of August 19, 1953, a crowd of demonstrators operating at the direction of pro-Shah organizers with ties to the CIA made its way from the bazaars of southern Tehran to the center of the city. Joined by military and police forces equipped with tanks, they sacked offices and newspapers aligned with Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddeq and his advisers, as well as the communist Tudeh Party and others opposed to the monarch. By early afternoon, clashes with Mosaddeq supporters were taking place, the fiercest occurring in front of the prime minister's home. Reportedly 200 people were killed in that battle before Mosaddeq escaped over his own roof, only to surrender the following day. At 5:25 p.m., retired General Fazlollah Zahedi, arriving at the radio station on a tank, declared to the nation that with the Shah's blessing he was now the legal prime minister and that his forces were largely in control of the city.

Article here.

With the death of former CIA director Richard Helms, the corporate media is offering a rare glimpse into the CIA's use of political assassinations. Unfortunately, however, the coverage is highly-sanitized. It covers up much more than it reveals.

Contrary to what the corporate media suggests, assassination is not a clean, surgical method of removing very specific political enemies. It is only one small element in a larger cluster of crimes used by the CIA in executing a regime change.

The reality is that the CIA's use of assassination to exterminate political leaders has historically been closely linked to many other political crimes that are, arguably, even worse.

For example, when planning, coordinating, arming, training and financing repressive military coups, as the CIA has done so many times, their henchmen are wont to carry out mass arrests, mass torture and mass murder. It's a nasty business. As Kissinger once said about the CIA's betrayal of Iraqi Kurds, covert action should not be confused with missionary work.

Article here.

I won't even start on the South American ****. Not applicable, but no less atrocious.

So get off your ****ing high horse about your nation stopping terrorism.

It started it.

 

[Jhony5]

With all due respect. You didn't seem to comprehend what I was trying to convey.

Other then these ambiguous isolated incidents and sporadic localized warfare. The world has enjoyed a long period of relative stability in respect to the first 50 years of the 20th century. The Stalins, Hitlers, and other evil leaders who seeked world domination have been quelled due to the leadership of nations that don't wait for these evil nations to garnish too much power. America has always been at the forefront of these conflicts. You can't argue that.

Blaming America for terrorism is akin to blaming the nerdy student for the bullies thirst for his lunch money.

 

[Jhony5]

I'm talking about WTC 7. Hit by nothing.

Other then two falling skyscrapers. Ya. Care to elaborate?

You have nothing but red herrings, or dribble you pasted from others. Get original, or get the **** out of here.

Pasted from others? Explain this immediately!!!

I speak my own words buddy boy.

Link us to these imaginary recordings.

Do I also have to link you to a site that explains water is wet? Jesus Christ don't tell me you haven't heard the recordings of the hijackers communicating with the flight controllers? Wherein they said "We have a bomb on board, remain calm and everything will be alright". Then the transponders went off. Its not my fault your completely ignorant of the happenings that day. Research it yourself pal. Its not my job to educate you.

How are most bombs detonated these days, Jhony? Mobile phones. Try to keep up. Series detonations are actually triggered by one signal, and subsequent charges are detonated by slave signals, to keep the successive implosion timed accurately.

Your attempting to muddy the waters. Electrical equipment as well as even the finest digital equipment of this type will not function if run into by a god dam ****ing burning airplane. What is it you don't get about this? I want everyone to key in one the operative word in Builders above statement. "ACCURATELY". Accuracy is key in implosions. Which cannot be obtained from devices that have been destroyed due to catastrophic events, such as a plane crashing into them. Again, if the planes were purposely crashed into the WTC, with the knowledge that they would then be dropped by an implosion device, the planes would have to strike a very narrow area. An area so narrow it defies logic.

Yes. Wireless technology is with us as we speak. You've heard of WI-FI? Or bluetooth? How's about hotspots?

Let me hillbilly this one. **** don't work right if **** done got ruin't. Did I dumb it down enough for ya? Take the most sophisticated equipment in the known world, crash a god dam plane into it, and just see if it works!!!

You've been doing this from the start. You don't debate. You shill. Grow a brain, and ease up on the pot for a change. It took you near on an hour to post this dribble.

I stopped to take a **** buddy. Since when am I being timed on my response? This isn't Jeopardy. "I'll take Builders losing his ass on this and doesn't have a shred of tangible proof for a thousand Alex".

You have nothing but red herrings

Apparently in Australia, red hearing means questions you can't answer.

Why are you jumping back from everything I pose to you. All you got to say is "strawman....red hearing...I want my mommy. Either address the **** or shut it up.

The buildings were how tall? The charges were systematically exploded from the lower levels upwards. Video evidence of charges exploding in the basements is there for all to see, as are the systematic charges from the ground upwards. You claim that the planes destroyed the whole building in one ****ing hit. Now we all know how stoned you really are.

What evidence? Silence me through proof. The truth is, there is absolutely no evidence of any implosion type collapse. This is total fabrication. The buildings DID NOT fall from a compromise at the lower level. Its clear as ****ing day. The collapse began at the apex of the impact area from the plane in both towers. Show me the video. You don't have it do you? I do. And it supports my view, not yours.

...and BTW, thats three references so far to my marijuana hobby. Are you trying to use this to support your debate? Pathetic. Stick to the issues and get off the distractions. Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

The guy asked for the building to be "pulled", when firefighters claimed they could easily control the spot fires. Tell me why he wanted it "pulled" when it could be easily saved?

Ok. First off, what ****ing "guy"? The firefighters weren't even trying to fight the fire. They were in the building to save lives. Fighting that fire was a waste of time, and they knew this. How can you, with a straight face, even try to refer to this as "spot fires". Jesus god man. Have you lost it?

The Taliban is currently yielding the largest crop of opium in history. Refute that.

The Taliban has had their infrastructure completely disassembled. They have been reduced to a drug ring. No longer the aspiring army that wished to destroy the US. They are powerless trolls forced to hide in their huts.

Highest suicide rate and murder rate in the "civilized" west. I won't mention the obesity factor, or the fact that you guys have a monopoly on school kids taking a gun to school and killing off their comrades.

And you accuse me of getting off topic. Shall we debate abortion rights while we're at it? Stick to the issues, and avoid the pointless slander.

Al Quaeda was trained by the CIA to fight the Russians is Afghanistan. It would help if you knew your own country's history

Your point being.........? Tell me sumptin I don't know.

I'm not gonna defend the crooked allegiances that my Nation has made over the years. It still doesn't go to say that Al-Quaeda didn't plot to destroy America. Its kinda obvious that it wasn't a sudden decision for them to launch a holy war against us. My point stands. They plotted this **** for years, which is what I stated.

I posited a hypothesis about WTC1 and 2. I mentioned nothing about that flight. It's the mark of a poor debater to put words in the mouths of opponents.

And I countered every outrageous claim you've made thus far. Which reduces you to getting smartassed on a constant. You don't want to hear my ****, then do not draw my ire.

Hamza fights on his pat malone. Your point was?

Fair enough since he ducked out of this. I'll refrain from his mention.

Building tend to fall down. Explosions tend to go upwards. I don't need to point you to any video evidence of WTC 1 and 2 "falling" upwards, nor the reporters on the ground hearing the explosions that started the implosion of those buildings.

Countless tons of cement, steel and whatever else was contained within, would make a mighty crunchy sound MR. The buildings did not fall upwards. They tilted slightly to the side which first gave, then down they came. You can continue to inject this fantasy that the WTC towers blew up in the air with a mighty blast. Doesn't change whats on friggin video. Real time recordings, unaltered and unabated for the whole world to see. Yet a handful of America hating shrubs viewed it through stained glass. Stained with a nasty predisposition towards American Government.

Plenty of explosions were heard, and are even detectable on the richter scale.

Ok. So heres where we're at. I'm claiming that there was no exploding sounds at the inception of the collapse. By that I mean to say. Seconds before the buildings fell, there wasn't a sound. Not a peep. After the building began to collapse, there was indeed many booms and blasts.

How could this be? Unless....unless there were detonators causing these sounds.

What all was contained within the structures.
1) People. Yep. Lots and lots of people. Hmmmm, but they don't go boom when they get crushed. Lets move on, shall we?

2)Paper and clerical office supplies. Again, not so much gonna boom when crushed.

3)Computers...Naaaa. Thats gonna be more like a faint crunchy noise when placed under such duress.

4)Mops. Ya there were lots of mops. But they don't make noise at all really. Can't be the mops.

5)Wait a minute....hold on... I'm a pot smoker so its gonna take me a minute but I think I know what might have made a boom noise here and there. Ohhhh what was it?


OHHHHHHHH ya. The buildings had lights. Lights require power. To provide power there must be present, for a building of this size and magnitude, power boxes, generator and a litany of electrical power supply equipment. Many areas of the WTC had power at the time of the collapse. I surmise that many explosions would be EXPECTED in the collapse of a structure with such power needs, while continuing to feed electricity into said power supply stations.

You continue to spit on the graves of the nearly 3,000 people who died an unimaginable horrible death. Just what would these poor souls think of you turning their deaths into a side show attraction? Claiming that the hundreds of passengers whom perished aboard the planes, simply were disappeared and that they didn't undergo the terror imposed upon them by Muslims in their final moments.

Call it a red hearing. Call it a strawman tactic. I call it being real about **** and distancing myself from the sorry ****s that refuse to see the truth because it feeds their need for controversy.

 

[builder]

Other then two falling skyscrapers. Ya. Care to elaborate?

At least fifty metres separated building seven from the other demolition excercises. It wasn't directly hit. The cause of the fires is still under a cloud of conjecture.

Pasted from others? Explain this immediately!!!

**** you. You avoid anything you want to, and expect me to cowtow? Double **** you. Make you airtight.

I speak my own words buddy boy.

One would sincerely hope so.

Do I also have to link you to a site that explains water is wet? Jesus Christ don't tell me you haven't heard the recordings of the hijackers communicating with the flight controllers?

Nope. If they're not on the web, then I've not heard them. Got some links?

Wherein they said "We have a bomb on board, remain calm and everything will be alright". Then the transponders went off.

Run it by us again. Where is it? You mean in that movie?

Its not my fault your completely ignorant of the happenings that day. Research it yourself pal. Its not my job to educate you.

I research thoroughly. I save the best for last.

I'm hoping your induction will benefit your career.

Your attempting to muddy the waters. Electrical equipment as well as even the finest digital equipment of this type will not function if run into by a god dam ****ing burning airplane.

Says you, Einstein. The visual on those impacts shows not even a shudder in a building designed with such care and attention to durability. Not a ****ing shudder. They'd still be there as a monument to western design brilliance if some arsehole didn't say "pull them".

What is it you don't get about this? I want everyone to key in one the operative word in Builders above statement. "ACCURATELY".

Blow me Jhony5. What are you on? I want some to give to my gardner.

Accuracy is key in implosions. Which cannot be obtained from devices that have been destroyed due to catastrophic events, such as a plane crashing into them.

The plane/s crashed into less than five floors on a skyscraper. What about the other hundred plus floors? A

Again, if the planes were purposely crashed into the WTC, with the knowledge that they would then be dropped by an implosion device, the planes would have to strike a very narrow area.

An area so narrow it defies logic.

This is a fixation for you alone, Mister. Why the narrow exlusion zone?

Let me hillbilly this one.

No stretch at all, really.

**** don't work right if **** done got ruin't.

I'm trying to envisage this. Any more clues?

Did I dumb it down enough for ya?

Apparently not.

Take the most sophisticated equipment in the known world, crash a god dam plane into it, and just see if it works!!!

Crash a plane into five of over one hundred floors, and why wouldn't the othe floors be functional. Lots of people fled the scene in tme. It wasn't as if a plane crashing into a few floors ****ed things over in the rest of the building.

I stopped to take a **** buddy.

For one hour? Try castor oil.

Since when am I being timed on my response?

Since you took this personal. It isn't. You shouted, and I responded. Big deal.

This isn't Jeopardy.

Marcus Welby.

"I'll take Builders losing his ass on this and doesn't have a shred of tangible proof for a thousand Alex".

You lose again.

Apparently in Australia, red hearing means questions you can't answer.[,QUOTE]

Why are you jumping back from everything I pose to you. All you got to say is "strawman....red hearing...I want my mommy. Either address the **** or shut it up.

Some quotes would be handy right about now. I rarely use the strawman/red herring tool. Most debaters stick to the topic.

What evidence? Silence me through proof.

Indulge me with the evidence.

The truth is, there is absolutely no evidence of any implosion type collapse.

There is, and you know it, Jhony5. You'd prefer not to know, but it's a patriotic duty to ignore the **** that doesn't personally involve you. Isn't it?

This is total fabrication. The buildings DID NOT fall from a compromise at the lower level

So tell me why the videos clearly show the centre of the buildings falling in, b4 the 'severely damaged' outer walls fell? ?The radio tower on building two fell into the guts of the building just as the top fifty floors exploded into the air.

Its clear as ****ing day. The collapse began at the apex of the impact area from the plane in both towers.

Not so, Hombre. BTW, I'm saving video "evidence" until you show your hand.

Show me the video. You don't have it do you? I do. And it supports my view, not yours.

Get it out there, chickenshit.

...and BTW, thats three references so far to my marijuana hobby. Are you trying to use this to support your debate? Pathetic. Stick to the issues and get off the distractions. Jedi mind tricks don't work on me.

I won't dwell on your habit, if you don't dwell on my prediliction for Australia. Agreed ?

 

[builder]

Continued....

Ok. First off, what ****ing "guy"? The firefighters weren't even trying to fight the fire. They were in the building to save lives. Fighting that fire was a waste of time, and they knew this. How can you, with a straight face, even try to refer to this as "spot fires". Jesus god man. Have you lost it?

I've researched this. The second tower to be hit was the first tower to drop. The official line is that fires reaching furnace heat softened the structure, resulting in a pancake collapse. We are talking 1500 degrees, when there are people visible in the window holes of the damaged sections. Some were jumping out, granted, but heat that hot would have seen all of then jumping out to their deaths without question. The heat haze from that kinda furnace would have been visible for miles. All we saw was black smoke.

The Taliban has had their infrastructure completely disassembled. They have been reduced to a drug ring. No longer the aspiring army that wished to destroy the US. They are powerless trolls forced to hide in their huts.

Dealing in the most addictive drug on the planet, to the tune of ninety-plus percent of the global supply. I'd rather run that **** than work for a living.

And you accuse me of getting off topic. Shall we debate abortion rights while we're at it? Stick to the issues, and avoid the pointless slander.

I will if you will, Hombre. Stick to the **** at hand, or **** off.

Your point being.........? Tell me sumptin I don't know.

If only you would listen, rather than load up.

I'm not gonna defend the crooked allegiances that my Nation has made over the years. It still doesn't go to say that Al-Quaeda didn't plot to destroy America. Its kinda obvious that it wasn't a sudden decision for them to launch a holy war against us. My point stands. They plotted this **** for years, which is what I stated.

Calm down, Mister. This is an interknob discussion. If you wanna fist fight, go to the local gym. Or saunter down hip-hop lane, with that attitude.

And I countered every outrageous claim you've made thus far. Which reduces you to getting smartassed on a constant. You don't want to hear my ****, then do not draw my ire.

You're running scared. You know I've got this one in the bag, and now you resort to personal carping. Grow some cajones, Jhony5.

Fair enough since he ducked out of this. I'll refrain from his mention.

More shirking. Good work, if you can get away with it.

Countless tons of cement, steel and whatever else was contained within, would make a mighty crunchy sound MR.

No doubt. Pity there are scenes of explosions down low before the **** hit the fan up above. You talk about these structures like they were townhouses, Jhony5.

They were near-on the tallest ****ing structures on the face of the earth.

The buildings did not fall upwards.

So they imploded? Is that why plumes of concrete and steel were hurtled almost a hundred metres into the sky?

They tilted slightly to the side which first gave, then down they came. You can continue to inject this fantasy that the WTC towers blew up in the air with a mighty blast.

A mighty air blast? That's good. Can I use that? Not ****ing likely an air blast is gonna land an unmarked passport from some strango Saudi who's been tracked for years, and failed a test for pilot status.

Doesn't change whats on friggin video. Real time recordings, unaltered and unabated for the whole world to see.

What did you see?

Yet a handful of America hating shrubs viewed it through stained glass. Stained with a nasty predisposition towards American Government.

Now I know you're a shill. How much does it pay?

Ok. So heres where we're at. I'm claiming that there was no exploding sounds at the inception of the collapse. By that I mean to say. Seconds before the buildings fell, there wasn't a sound. Not a peep. After the building began to collapse, there was indeed many booms and blasts.

Mostly before, but many during. Your point is?

How could this be? Unless....unless there were detonators causing these sounds.

Or you had your head up your own ass again.

What all was contained within the structures.
People. Yep. Lots and lots of people. Hmmmm, but they don't go boom when they get crushed. Lets move on, shall we?

Emotive crapola works on Sundays only.



[QUOTE)Paper and clerical office supplies. Again, not so much gonna boom when crushed.

It helps if you separate the pages manually to burn them.

3)Computers...Naaaa. Thats gonna be more like a faint crunchy noise when placed under such duress.

Who knows? I like to push the envelope.

4)Mops. Ya there were lots of mops. But they don't make noise at all really. Can't be the mops.

Agreed. Mops suck. Hopefully.

5)Wait a minute....hold on... I'm a pot smoker so its gonna take me a minute but I think I know what might have made a boom noise here and there. Ohhhh what was it?

The presidential election. Rooseveldt got in. I'm stoked.

 

[Jhony5]

Nope. If they're not on the web, then I've not heard them

Well thats a narrow view of the world. No wonder you subscribe to oddball conspiracy theories.

Run it by us again. Where is it? You mean in that movie

I will get right on that. I don't watch Hollywood bullshit. My television viewing is limited to documentaries, news, or sports. The 9/11 hijackers communicated directly with the flight controllers, but only briefly. It was a means of buying time. Then they switched off the transponders and discontinued communications. I will make an effort to retrieve proof of this from the web.

I research thoroughly. I save the best for last.

I never bring a knife to a gun fight.

They'd still be there as a monument to western design brilliance if some arsehole didn't say "pull them".

I'm not following you on this one. I'm left to only guess that what your referring to is the command to pull the firefighters from the building. But thats only a guess as I am in the dark about your vague references to this "pull them" remark.

Blow me Jhony5.

Neither the time nor the place for oral copulation. But if your ever in Indy, drop by and I'll suck your dick raw.

Originally Posted by Jhony5:
An area so narrow it defies logic.

This is a fixation for you alone, Mister. Why the narrow exclusion zone?

I insist that if the planes were flown into the building on purpose with the knowledge that they would subsequently be dropped from explosives, that they MUST strike ABOVE the pre-installed devices but not to far from them, nor to close. To far from the devices would create a revealing event which would make it obvious that something afoul had occurred. To close would jeopardize the devises (functionally). Doing so would disallow them to effectively drop the buildings. Had the buildings not fallen, with explosive devices still present, then a subsequent investigation would discover them.

This is a compromising position for such a genius and multi-faceted conspiracy to involve. I'd liken it to a genius scheme to rob a bank, with all the possible precautions and afore-sight to pull it off without a hitch. Then choosing a Yugo as your get away vehicle.

Lots of people fled the scene in tme. It wasn't as if a plane crashing into a few floors ****ed things over in the rest of the building.

We are talking 1500 degrees, when there are people visible in the window holes of the damaged sections. Some were jumping out, granted, but heat that hot would have seen all of then jumping out to their deaths without question.

I think you might have contradicted yourself. You stated that "lots of people fled the scene". Then you stated that people were jumping from the windows to their deaths. The hard undeniable fact is ALL of the people above the impact zone died. Either by way of the trauma from the initial impact. Smoke inhalation. Fire. Or suicide. This shows that the damage to the building at the spot of impact was cataclysmic. Which lends weight towards the possibility of structural failure.

As you said "Heat that hot would have seen all of them jumping to their deaths". I strongly disagree. "heat that hot" would have incinerated many people before they had the choice of suicide. Heres more>>>

All we saw was black smoke.

Smoke inhalation alone would prevent many many people from the opportunity to jump. As well, the absolutely terrifying and survival instinct defying act of plunging ones self from 80 some odd stories above the earth, would indicate that there was indeed a furnace of ungodly heat very near them. Agreed?

You'd prefer not to know, but it's a patriotic duty to ignore the **** that doesn't personally involve you.

I do not base my opinion on emotionally charged patriotism. I hated my government for Waco. I hated my Government for Ruby Ridge. And I would personally kill Mr. Bush if I thought for any reason he was the true instigator of 9/11.

Again, and I cannot say this any more clearly, I do not base my opinion on the happenings of 9/11 on a patriotic base.

I won't dwell on your habit, if you don't dwell on my prediliction for Australia. Agreed ?

Agreed.

To be quite honest, I find Australia to be one of the most beautiful places on the face of earth and if I had to pick another country to live in, I'd go down under. If I were a millionaire I'd buy a second home there. A truly wondrous and diverse landscape. I want to visit before I die.

I will be back for more on this discussion, and next time I'm upping the ante.

 

[builder]

Well thats a narrow view of the world. No wonder you subscribe to oddball conspiracy theories.

Rather lame comeback, Mister. No tinfoil hats? Cheapo bastards.

I will get right on that. I don't watch Hollywood bullshit. My television viewing is limited to documentaries, news, or sports.

Good for you. Too much tv can make you a junkie.

The 9/11 hijackers communicated directly with the flight controllers, but only briefly. It was a means of buying time. Then they switched off the transponders and discontinued communications. I will make an effort to retrieve proof of this from the web.

You'd better, Hombre. If you got it, it might just change everything. I hope you really do have it.

I never bring a knife to a gun fight.

I never bring a pistol to a turkey shoot.

I'm not following you on this one. I'm left to only guess that what your referring to is the command to pull the firefighters from the building. But thats only a guess as I am in the dark about your vague references to this "pull them" remark.

The only vague thing about this issue, is the fact that the supporters of the party line want to forever forget about WTC 7. The term "pull it", does not equate to "pull them". Get over it.

Neither the time nor the place for oral copulation. But if your ever in Indy, drop by and I'll suck your dick raw.

I insist that if the planes were flown into the building on purpose with the knowledge that they would subsequently be dropped from explosives, that they MUST strike ABOVE the pre-installed devices but not to far from them, nor to close. To far from the devices would create a revealing event which would make it obvious that something afoul had occurred.

Not likely. We are talking about remote receivers, with slave senders. If one got knocked, or ten, it's not big deal.

To close would jeopardize the devises (functionally). Doing so would disallow them to effectively drop the buildings. Had the buildings not fallen, with explosive devices still present, then a subsequent investigation would discover them.

The subsequent investigation has discovered them. That is why we are discussing this now. If the official investigation had any legitimate credibility, nobody would bother with it, don't you think?

This is a compromising position for such a genius and multi-faceted conspiracy to involve. I'd liken it to a genius scheme to rob a bank, with all the possible precautions and afore-sight to pull it off without a hitch. Then choosing a Yugo as your get away vehicle.

You would. You love the spotlight enough to get caught. The point is,,,,what was your point?

I think you might have contradicted yourself. You stated that "lots of people fled the scene". Then you stated that people were jumping from the windows to their deaths

Those that could leave, left the building. You claimed that the impact of the place crashing actually disabled the whole structure, when we all know that nothing could be further from the truth.

The hard undeniable fact is ALL of the people above the impact zone died.

The hard undeniable fact is, the fire exits to the roof were locked from the outside. Nobody was meant to get away from the upper floors.

Either by way of the trauma from the initial impact.

The explosion was massive, but quite short-lived.

Smoke inhalation. Fire. Or suicide. This shows that the damage to the building at the spot of impact was cataclysmic.

A momentary blast, then people realising they could not get out, so they bombed out. Bloody dismal show.

Which lends weight towards the possibility of structural failure.

Not for an instant. Bloody pathetic slotting that in after a sympathy trip and all.

As you said "Heat that hot would have seen all of them jumping to their deaths". I strongly disagree. "heat that hot" would have incinerated many people before they had the choice of suicide.

Maybe. But how can a furnace of 1200 plus degrees be burning within twenty feet of people standing in open windows? Not possible. No way, no ****ing how.

Heres more>>> Smoke inhalation alone would prevent many many people from the opportunity to jump.

You can jump any time you like. Smoke does not happen within a furnace burning at 1200 degrees.. All those jumpers should have been on fire from the radiant heat.

As well, the absolutely terrifying and survival instinct defying act of plunging ones self from 80 some odd stories above the earth, would indicate that there was indeed a furnace of ungodly heat very near them. Agreed?

No. See above. Radiant heat from a blaze hot enough to do what the boffins claimed would be melting the skin off those jumpers. They just realised there was no way out.

I do not base my opinion on emotionally charged patriotism. I hated my government for Waco. I hated my Government for Ruby Ridge. And I would personally kill Mr. Bush if I thought for any reason he was the true instigator of 9/11.

Careful, Matey. Guantanamo is still taking new arrivals.

Again, and I cannot say this any more clearly, I do not base my opinion on the happenings of 9/11 on a patriotic base.

What do you base them on?

Agreed.

To be quite honest, I find Australia to be one of the most beautiful places on the face of earth and if I had to pick another country to live in, I'd go down under. If I were a millionaire I'd buy a second home there. A truly wondrous and diverse landscape. I want to visit before I die.

Just slip your best **** into a backpack, and come on over.

You're not attached to inanimate ****, are you?

I will be back for more on this discussion, and next time I'm upping the ante.

I went back five years to start this ****. Bring it, brother. I's a ready for yuz.

 

[Lethalfind]

What I find continually hilarious Builder is that you seem to think ANYONE gives anything you say any credibility.
If you knew HALF what you spout on here, you might be worth knowing.

 

[builder]

What I find continually hilarious Builder is that you seem to think ANYONE gives anything you say any credibility.
If you knew HALF what you spout on here, you might be worth knowing.

The only laughable thing we need to address is, why the **** you would put your neck on the block by entering another debate without anything to add to that debate.


Go crawl back in your hole, rusty wench.

 

[builder]

We've moved on from that fiasco, Nazz.

We're on the demolition now.

 

[builder]

You mean I read all that **** for nothing??
.
.

Hopefully not.

 

[Jhony5]

Posted by Builder:

You'd better, Hombre. If you got it, it might just change everything. I hope you really do have it.

Well I have failed so far in locating the actually audio recordings. BUT, I have links to the transcripts of exactly what I'm referring to. I just listened to these recordings on TV 2 weeks ago and for whatever reason (maybe a Government cover-up ) I can't get my hands on them. Nevertheless, both of these links document the various hodge podge of communication between the hijackers and the controllers.

http://cgi.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/17/911.transcript

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0412061hijack1.html

I never bring a pistol to a turkey shoot.

I never bring a pistol to a rocket fight. Ha one-up'd ya on that huh?

The term "pull it", does not equate to "pull them". Get over it.

We are becoming mired in the semantics of a yet unfounded quote. I can't lend any weight to this verbage as it has yet to materialize.

The subsequent investigation has discovered them. That is why we are discussing this now. If the official investigation had any legitimate credibility, nobody would bother with it, don't you think?

No proof of any remnants of any demolition devices has been discovered. If I'm wrong please to enlighten me.

The hard undeniable fact is, the fire exits to the roof were locked from the outside. Nobody was meant to get away from the upper floors.

First of all, how do we know this? Second, there were in fact people on the roof, as documented on video.

The explosion was massive, but quite short-lived.

So the near 20,000 gallons of jet grade fuel just evaporated? ....or....burnt off in a matter of a few short minutes? Not bloody likely my Friend.

Maybe. But how can a furnace of 1200 plus degrees be burning within twenty feet of people standing in open windows? Not possible. No way, no ****ing how.

I think your assumption of a distance of 20 feet is guesswork at best. Whatever the actual temperature was at the heart of the inferno, and the temperature at the far edge of the building actually was, is hard to pin down. However, the fact that people chose freely to plummet to their deaths in such a ghastly manner supports the fact that the heat even at the outermost edge of the structure, was utterly unbearable.

You can jump any time you like. Smoke does not happen within a furnace burning at 1200 degrees.. All those jumpers should have been on fire from the radiant heat.

Radiant heat from a blaze hot enough to do what the boffins claimed would be melting the skin off those jumpers.

I think the evidence (people jumping by the dozens) indicates that the heat was at near flashpoint. The grueling torture of the heat was likely the motive for such drastic action as leaping to ones death.

They just realized there was no way out.

C'mon buddy. People don't give in that easy. Maybe one or two stragglers would succumb to panic and hop out an 80 story window, but what was documented was countless dozens of people jumping. Many of the folks whom observed from the streets below, described the macob surreal scene of "raining bodies". This is irrefutable proof to measure the heat from the inferno contained within the structure. It was either burn to death slowly, or kiss your ass goodbye and take your chances with gravity.

Careful, Matey. Guantanamo is still taking new arrivals.

I hear the American interrogators have state of the art nipple clamps.

Just slip your best **** into a backpack, and come on over.

No need. I hear the Australian weed is primo supreme.

You're not attached to inanimate ****, are you?

Just this damn mortgage. 26 more years and I'm in the clear.

Posted by Builder in response to Lethal:

The only laughable thing we need to address is, why the **** you would put your neck on the block by entering another debate without anything to add to that debate.


Go crawl back in your hole, rusty wench.

I second this. Either contribute something intelligent towards either side, or stick to the intellectual goatse thread.

 

[builder]

Well I have failed so far in locating the actually audio recordings. BUT, I have links to the transcripts of exactly what I'm referring to.

So post these links for us, Jhony.

I just listened to these recordings on TV 2 weeks ago and for whatever reason (maybe a Government cover-up ) I can't get my hands on them. Nevertheless, both of these links document the various hodge podge of communication between the hijackers and the controllers.

http://cgi.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/17/911.transcript

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0412061hijack1.html

Nothing conclusive there.

I never bring a pistol to a rocket fight. Ha one-up'd ya on that huh?

Never bring a sword to a **** fight. Gotcha back there.

We are becoming mired in the semantics of a yet unfounded quote. I can't lend any weight to this verbage as it has yet to materialize.

None needed.

No proof of any remnants of any demolition devices has been discovered. If I'm wrong please to enlighten me.

Plenty of video evidence there for the discerning soul.

First of all, how do we know this? Second, there were in fact people on the roof, as documented on video.

What video? There were no people on the roof.

So the near 20,000 gallons of jet grade fuel just evaporated? ....or....burnt off in a matter of a few short minutes? Not bloody likely my Friend.

Black smoke indicates a fuel-inefficient low-temperature blaze. Not a ****ing furnace. Get with the picture.

I think your assumption of a distance of 20 feet is guesswork at best.

Agreed. Would it make much difference if the 1200 degree open furnace was another ten feet away>?

Whatever the actual temperature was at the heart of the inferno, and the temperature at the far edge of the building actually was, is hard to pin down.

No, it is not. The required heat to sear all the vertical steel collumns of the structure at the same time is 1500 degrees. It never got that hot.

However, the fact that people chose freely to plummet to their deaths in such a ghastly manner supports the fact that the heat even at the outermost edge of the structure, was utterly unbearable.

The choking fumes would have been the major issue.

I think the evidence (people jumping by the dozens) indicates that the heat was at near flashpoint.

What flashpoint? It's a building. It exploded upwards. I guess that all that paper and all those pens and **** got volatile, and just blew up.

The grueling torture of the heat was likely the motive for such drastic action as leaping to ones death.

You got it in one.

C'mon buddy. People don't give in that easy.

Says who?

Maybe one or two stragglers would succumb to panic and hop out an 80 story window, but what was documented was countless dozens of people jumping

It was horrific, to say the least. I did not see one person jumping with burning clothes on.

.

Many of the folks whom observed from the streets below, described the macob surreal scene of "raining bodies". This is irrefutable proof to measure the heat from the inferno contained within the structure.

Still nobody scorched or on fire.

It was either burn to death slowly, or kiss your ass goodbye and take your chances with gravity.

I didn't see anybody scorched or burning. No furnaces there.

I hear the American interrogators have state of the art nipple clamps.

That should titillate you.

No need. I hear the Australian weed is primo supreme.

See if you can cope.

Just this damn mortgage. 26 more years and I'm in the clear.

Posted by Builder in response to Lethal:

I second this. Either contribute something intelligent towards either side, or stick to the intellectual goatse thread.

**** the mortgage. Sounds like a life's sentence. So does lethal.

 

[builder]

More grist for the mill.