Women seeking abortions must view an ultrasound

[eddo]

are we really back to calling each other murderers???

please Wez and Tj, knock it off. this is actually a pretty decent debate, so lets stick to the topic, please? Name calling, attacking, and fgetting sidetracked will get us nowhere, and we all know that...

Merc, excellent point. Different people do differ on when life begins. I believe life starts at conception. I have no issue with preventing pregnancy, but I do have issues with ending it after it has happened. In my eyes, *** has decided that a life should begin (thus why birth control isn't 100% effective) so to stop that is against His plan.

Thus why I think it is so important for us to try to prevent abortions as much as humanely possible.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I believe that having an abortion should be as miserable as possible.~ RaE

Why do think that? Do you think it's morally wrong? Or do you just like to see women suffer?

Sounds like a moral judgment to me..

I don't see moral in there anywhere. My personal opinion is that abortion should not be easy, hence it should be as miserable as possible. Do you need more clarification on that somehow?

That's your opinion.. Your community seemed to think differently for 128 years..

Yeah... and they don't now... your point?

Oh.. and btw.. abortion is legal.. why do you think women should be punished again?

I don't believe I've said anything about punishment in this thread (if i'm wrong, somebody please point out the post).

I have an objection to the fact that it is legal. I certainly never said that an ultrasound should be a punishment.

 

[wez]

are we really back to calling each other murderers???

Apparently.. I was surprised TJ waited this long to bring up my personal life.. kinda proud of him actually.. he appears to be getting better.

please Wez and Tj, knock it off. this is actually a pretty decent debate, so lets stick to the topic, please? Name calling, attacking, and fgetting sidetracked will get us nowhere, and we all know that...

Ok.. I'm sorry I agreed with IWS's assessment and called you commies .. and called RaE a moron.. hugs

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Well there you're getting into a whole other debate, and it would be: at what point does life begin?

Not everyone believes that life begins at the moment of conception... if that were the case, everyone against abortion would also be against hormonal birth control methods.

I'll school you on that a little bit Most hormonal forms of birth control do not prevent ovulation or stop a sperm from penetrating the ovum wall. They create a hostile environment within the uterus which prevent the egg from implanting into the uterine wall and creating textural changes in cervical secretions that also help prevent this. If there is no implantation, a fertilized egg will be passed out of the body with the next menstrual cycle.

If you believe that life begins when that sperm and egg collide, then you should also oppose the most convenient and widely used means in which people try to prevent it.

My own belief is that it's not a pregnancy until that egg implants itself in the uterine wall. I'm not opposed to birth control, but found it didn't work for me.... so I have 3 little surprises

I think I'm going to go with this one too. I think that it could be argued that this is when life really takes hold. The problem is that non-viable eggs can latch onto the wall as well and miscarriage can happen. I also don't have an opposition to birth control. But if a viable egg can't hack it in the womb naturally, it's not really a life anyway. Conception is defined as when the swimmer gets into the egg? I think we need to upgrade the definition to this.

are we really back to calling each other murderers???

please Wez and Tj, knock it off. this is actually a pretty decent debate, so lets stick to the topic, please? Name calling, attacking, and fgetting sidetracked will get us nowhere, and we all know that...

Merc, excellent point. Different people do differ on when life begins. I believe life starts at conception. I have no issue with preventing pregnancy, but I do have issues with ending it after it has happened. In my eyes, *** has decided that a life should begin (thus why birth control isn't 100% effective) so to stop that is against His plan.

Thus why I think it is so important for us to try to prevent abortions as much as humanely possible.

agreed. let's get back on topic.

 

[timesjoke]

are we really back to calling each other murderers???

please Wez and Tj, knock it off. this is actually a pretty decent debate, so lets stick to the topic, please? Name calling, attacking, and fgetting sidetracked will get us nowhere, and we all know that...

lol, I did what I wanted to do, Wez started in on his attack people caling them names and such just because they do not agree with him. Wez started it so I showed him for the hypocrite he is. Once he was proven to be wrong, did he admit it or did he instead turn up the volumn on his attacks even more? I have to say his out of control rant/attack was enough to almost make me **** myself laughing at him. When I was a young man we used to call guys like him a 'push button b_tch'.

As far as the debate is concerned, other than Wez and anna calling people names I would say this is a great discussion. I love to have challenging debates.

Emkay, don't think I don't understand your point, I am just saying that certain things like the taking of life tend to change the severity of the problem, and that changes the strength of the needed response to the problem. The one thing I would like to see you at least comment on is how all laws are based on the moral foundations society in general wants, at least in theory even though lawyers tend to derail those intentions on both sides sometimes. If we accept that laws are there for things like murder because society as a whole believes murder is immoral, then why not understand that this new law is actually no different? We kill some people for breaking the morals of society, if the death penalty is not considered to intrusive in our lives, then we have established that it is proper for Government to intrude, the question then becomes what morals do we want Government to support?

Killing in all areas is a great concern in America, except when a mother wants to kill her child. If a man gives a woman a drug to cause an abortion, that is considered murder in most States, but a woman kills the same baby and that is even applauded as a great freedom for women.

Same dead baby, different reactions based on "who" killed the child.

 

[snafu]

Yes TJ same dead baby. Just like the Laci/ Connor murders.

They're trying to draw this distinction that says that when it comes to the taking of the life of Connor Peterson -- the child, the 8-month unborn child that Laci Peterson was carrying -- that it was not voluntary. In other words, the termination of the life was by force, was by threat and-- apparently, the allegation of course being that this was a murder. So, the distinction that is drawn in the law is, "Well, that's different than, say, an abortion, which is a voluntary procedure that someone undergoes." But this raises a point which is putting the National Organization for Women in a position they cannot get out of. And that is, why is it murder in one case and in another case it's a right enshrined in stone in the Constitution? And that's what I call the "abortion distortion" factor. The fact of the matter is, it's not voluntary for the unborn child. And we know from medical evidence, that there's fetal pain experienced.

http://www.aclj.org/...ead.aspx?ID=540

 

[wez]

lol, I did what I wanted to do, Wez started in on his attack people caling them names and such just because they do not agree with him. Wez started it so I showed him for the hypocrite he is. Once he was proven to be wrong, did he admit it or did he instead turn up the volumn on his attacks even more? I have to say his out of control rant/attack was enough to almost make me **** myself laughing at him. When I was a young man we used to call guys like him a 'push button b_tch'.

As far as the debate is concerned, other than Wez and anna calling people names I would say this is a great discussion. I love to have challenging debates.

Whatever.. why would I expect Mr. Personal Responsibility to take ever take personality responsibility.. Out of control rant/attack? yeah.. that happened..

Boohoo.. My victimhood never ends.. I create my delusions out of thin air and relentlessly repeat them into reality because I need other people to validate them for me.. or else

When I was a young man we used to call guys like you a psycho.. matter of fact.. still do.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Whatever.. why would I expect Mr. Personal Responsibility to take ever take personality responsibility.. Out of control rant/attack? yeah.. that happened..

Boohoo.. My victimhood never ends.. I create my delusions out of thin air and relentlessly repeat them into reality because I need other people to validate them for me.. or else

When I was a young man we used to call guys like you a psycho.. matter of fact.. still do.

You've got you down to a 'T'.

 

[wez]

You've got you down to a 'T'.

I take back my apology.. you are a moron..

_____________________________________________

As far as the debate the was concerned.. most people could see the issue for what is was and were in total agreement.. then we had a few that never once addressed the real issue due to personal bias, faux conservatism and an overwhelming desire to punish those who don't meet their moral standards.. and clearly showed they are for government imposition when it fits their personal agenda. Just like IWS pointed out after the actual debate was well over..

Well done emmy.. great post.. quite an interesting snapshot into the folks around here.. Had a blast.

 

[ImWithStupid]

The thing that most people are ignoring, is that an abortion is an elective procedure. There are plenty of operations that require preparation. Before you can get prescription heartburn medicine, you have to have an endoscopy. Before you can have your wisdom teeth removed you have to have an x-ray.

I'm calling bullshit here. That is obviously a wholly unsubstantiated statement. The Dr. or Dentist may suggest one, and it may be best practice, but if you really want that tooth pulled, they would do it without an x-ray.

There isn't a law requiring those procedures.

I believe that this is saying, before you have an abortion, you should have to have an ultrasound. If it is a part of the procedure, how is it a violation of anyone's rights? You're electing to have a procedure that you feel is best for you, and you have this ultrasound as preparation for that procedure.

You're electing to have a procedure, an ultrasound isn't a requirement to perform the procedure. It's back door morals being shoved down someone's throat, no different than laws against pornographic magazines or dancing like in Footloose.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I take back my apology.. you are a moron..

_____________________________________________

As far as the debate the was concerned.. most people could see the issue for what is was and were in total agreement.. then we had a few that never once addressed the real issue due to personal bias, faux conservatism and an overwhelming desire to punish those who don't meet their moral standards.. and clearly showed they are for government imposition when it fits their personal agenda. Just like IWS pointed out after the actual debate was well over..

Well done emmy.. great post.. quite an interesting snapshot into the folks around here.. Had a blast.

Again with the personal attacks?

You were in total agreement with yourself. I didn't see anybody else agreeing with you.

Debate was over? We've been debating the whole time.

 

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I'm calling bullshit here. That is obviously a wholly unsubstantiated statement. The Dr. or Dentist may suggest one, and it may be best practice, but if you really want that tooth pulled, they would do it without an x-ray.

There isn't a law requiring those procedures.

Call what you like. I was making a point. Not speaking in absolutes.

You're electing to have a procedure, an ultrasound isn't a requirement to perform the procedure. It's back door morals being shoved down someone's throat, no different than laws against pornographic magazines or dancing like in Footloose.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[mercury]

I think what this all comes down to is this: we all make bad choices at times. We might not think so in the moment, but I'm sure every last one of us can recall at least one thing we've done at some point in our life that was done for our own selfish reasons, with no consideration for how it may effect someone else. Especially when we don't have the benefit of maturity on our side. Some of those choices may have taken us down paths we wouldn't have chosen to travel; some of them may have taken us right where we want to be.

But that's what freedom is about. And it's also what life is about. It's about being allowed to make choices... even bad choices.... and learning to deal with them.

When abortion is debated in absolutes like this, I can't help but think of all those unplanned babies that were allowed to be born, that suffer at the hands of their own parents.

This really hits home right now, due to the death of a close friend's grandson. He was 4 years old. Beaten to death over a 4 day period by his "loving" mother's crack head boyfriend. Every single bone in this boy's body was broken. Every single tooth was kicked out of his mouth. His skull was crushed under this man's boot. His mother stood by and watched. She left their apartment on day 2 and did not report it because she was more concerned about being arrested on an outstanding drug warrant, than she was in saving her son's life. His name was Dominick Calhoun and he was a living doll. He died after being removed from life support on April 12 of this year.

I find it much more humane to allow a woman to abort a child she did not want, in the early stages of development, than to subject that same child to a monster like that.

 

[hugo]

I thought those opposed to Obamacare wished to keep medical decisions between the patient and the doctor and eliminate government intervention?

 

[ToriAllen]

Okay..so it's the contention that...now let me get this straight.

Procedures should not be forced nor should payment be forced IF the person is morally sound. If however, the lifestyle choices are morally reprehensible in ANY way, then that person is not subject to the same medical care afforded to the general population?

In conclusion some are even willing to pay for forced procedures from their own tax dollars to pay for unnecessary procedures to afford punishment on the morally corrupt?

Am I correct?

Hmmm, I don't think the politicians would do that to themselves.

Right, the fastest growing segment of society in both America and Europe is the single, never wed mother of two. Not a lot of moral character to show your kids in that situation.

Wait, are you arguing for or against abortion at this point.

THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT ABORTION.

That sounds familiar…Now where have I heard that before.

I say it totally relates to this topic.. It's about imposing morality on people.. Sodomy is immoral.. you need to be punished.

Well, I suppose when you start going to your doctor for sodomy, they may have to implement some standard procedure.....Although, I'm afraid to ask what those might be.

Calling someone a moron is a nasty attack? Whatever.. call the morality police.. they can give me an ultrasound..

hee hee, I was thinking lobotomy.

I’m kidding, although it wouldn’t hurt to scale back on the insults. You have decent enough arguments that you don’t have to use insults to fill in the white space. Most of the time people who resort to name-calling do it because they run out of anything of substance to say. Not to mention the fact that they have absolutely no affect and do nothing to make the other person see your views. I will personally kick the of anyone who says, “You are absolutely right. You have so destroyed my confidence and self-esteem that I have no choice but to agree with you now,� to you, me, or anyone else on here.

When abortion is debated in absolutes like this, I can't help but think of all those unplanned babies that were allowed to be born, that suffer at the hands of their own parents.

The problem with that agruement is most 'abusive' parents would not abort the child because they like the control and power they have over another human life.

 

[hugo]

The whole crux of the "conservative" argument here for forced ultrasounds is that government knows better than a doctor and a patient how to treat that patient.

 

[ImWithStupid]

The whole crux of the "conservative" argument here for forced ultrasounds is that government knows better than a doctor and a patient how to treat that patient.

i.e. see my signature.

Anyone for this is not only a faux conservative, they are are a progressive.

 

[timesjoke]

The whole crux of the "conservative" argument here for forced ultrasounds is that government knows better than a doctor and a patient how to treat that patient.

i.e. see my signature.

Anyone for this is not only a faux conservative, they are are a progressive.

No, your both wrong and your the fake conservatives.

You dodge my questions to both of you about how the Government is supposed to enforce laws and even our founding fathers included the process for creating new laws so there is absolutely nothing anywhere to say Government should not have laws.

Government even goes as far as killing some of our people to enforce laws to intrusion into our lives is not wrong, you both have never complained about the death penalty so you agree that sometimes Government should insert insert itself into the lives of the people, your only now complaining that "this" issue should not be enforced. This has nothing to do with big Gopvernment in the slightest. Government is not made bigger or stronger with this law, it is doing only what the people told Government to do and that is to figure out some way to slow down the irresponsibility based abortions like 90% of Americans want.

I have already established that all laws are based in morality, murder is against the law because society felt it was immoral to murder, killing in self defense is not illegal because society felt that was not immoral. Same dead body, no crime based on the intent of the killer being one of innocence.

So the morals of most Americans say they do not want irresponsibility based abortions to be considered the same as cutting off a wart, are you two saying that the morals of society should be ignored? If the wants of the people should be ignored then your exactly like Obama and how he ignored Americans and passed his healthcare bill against the wishes.

We are a Nation of laws, laws creadted through the process that has been set forth from the beginning of America. Laws that are based on our beliefs and morals as a community, not all laws are always perfect, but they are part of what makes America great. The process was followed, the people responded and supported the law, and enforcing the laws is part of the duty of Government. Every true Conservative respects the legal process and the American history of forming laws to represent the values and beliefs of Americans.

Merc,

You seem to be saying that all aborted babies would end up being abused, that is a horrible possition and honestly not true.

Tory is right, people who would be that abusive would never abort their children because they love the power too much, no based on the statistics, almost all abortions are done by women who already have chidren, I don't believe it is reasonable to say abortion babies is the same thing as saving them from abuse. Women who really did not want their children enough to kill it would more than likely be great canidates for giving their children up for adoption.

In fact, that is the kind of government supported pregnancy crisis center I could get behind to help women get through the issues of child birth and make connections with them and prospective parents. Most big cities have waiting lists for adoptions that are measured in years, not months. There will be lots of loving homes for these babies.

 

[Anna Perenna]

Simply put:

Under your basic human rights should you have to

 


1) pay for an ANY unwanted procedure and


2) should you be forced to endure one you don't want if it is unnecessary ?

Sorry for going off-track.

No, on both points.

 

[mercury]

No. I'm not saying that at all...

I'm saying that hearing this kind of sh t breaks my heart into a million pieces... and I'd rather that child never had to know of such things. Being blessed with a child is the greatest gift anyone can receive, and if you aren't going to appreciate that fact, you don't fukking deserve a child.

So often I hear things like "If you play, you pay." or a child being referred to as a "consequence" of being irresponsible in these kinds of debates. A child is a GIFT! and it's a gift that comes with a huge responsibility. They were irresponsible enough to get themselves knocked up, but they'll suddenly step up and be responsible as a parent? Some do and some don't. Some can't/won't even step up for the length of a pregnancy. Those that aren't up to taking the responsibility, should not be blessed with that gift.

I also hear the adoption argument often. Not all adoptive homes are a wonderful place to be. Abuse happens there, too.

I don't think most abusive parents start out with the intention to harm their child. "Oh! I'll have this baby so I can beat it to death in a couple weeks or months or years!" I think they are unprepared for the demands of parenthood... especially when it's a young person having the child. There is no way to fully experience what being a parent is until you are one. You have ideas and theories and maybe even some experience with babies and children, but the reality of the day in and day out of it is a far cry from babysitting.

So often these abusers walk away with a slap on the wrist and have their children returned to them once they've jumped through the right hoops. The laws that we currently have don't respect the fact that a child... a child who has no voice in this world... a child that has been entrusted to your care... is being forced to endure more than anyone should ever have to endure.

If our society was half as concerned about the well being of the fully developed children we have already roaming the earth as they are about abortion rights, maybe I'd feel differently.

(case in point: several neighbors heard this child crying "Mommy make it stop!" throughout his torture. Several drug addicts entered the apartment and suggested he needed some medical attention... None of them reported a thing.)

Little Domnick's story just might change accountability.... bills are currently being drafted in order to strengthen child abuse laws in Michigan. I hope it spreads like wildfire across our nation and across the globe.