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Interesting, but wrong. I do, however, see your point. When I have talked to the group about sex in the past, I have made sure that every parent knew when it was happening and what I would be saying. It is then up to them (the parents) to make the choice to have their child in attendance or not (which in itself flaws your theory- attendance to church isn't mandatory by the state whereas attendance to school is.) I agree that media and society plays a part in all this, but the parents have got to step up and start being held accountable for the crappy job they are doing (and that goes for more than just 11 & 12 year olds having sex.) I don't know the answer, but am open to suggestions. Obviously, I disagree. The marriage commitment, as I view it, is between man, wife, and God. I don't necessarily think the government has a place within my marriage either. It's funny that you think you know how I feel on these issues wez. Have you figured out yet that I don't fit very well into the stereotypes you compare me to?

I agree with that, but that doesn't make it right. Parents should be parenting. When I have kids I do not want the government telling me that I have to give my 11 year old daughter birth-control pills, or that I have to tell her that it is ok to have sex, as long as she is "protected" or "safe." This is not an issue that I am comfortable with a bunch of bureaucrats deciding for me and my family. oh, this oughtta be good... Wez, how would it be hypocritical for me to tell kids to wait til marriage to have sex when that is exactly what I am doing? and I would like to point out that it is you that keeps trying to make this about religion, not me.

That is the issue here. Not that kids are having sex, not the sex ed- but the fact that parents are more and more turning over the responsibilities of being a parent over to other people to do for them. And the schools and the Gov't just soak it up. It is not the schools job to educate about sex. It is the parents. It is not the schools job to educate about birth control. It is the parents. It is most certainly not the job of the schools to give out birth control pills or condoms- that is the parents. Why people have kids and then expect others to raise them is beyond me. You all go ahead and elect Hillary and she'll take care of your kids for you. You won't have to do anything, won't have to worry about anything, and they will grow into adults completely dependent on the Gov't to do everything for them. Cool...

Please you two, lets not overrun this post (like was done to the other) with arguments about Hitler being or not being a Christian, ok? You have both made your points, neither wants to rescind, so move on, ok?

Restraining orders don't count.

Interesting. It's good to see that you have no working knowledge of what you are so against. Cool. Yep, no hatred or intolerance there... There is a difference between "reading" the bible, and taking the time to "understand" what it is saying. The Bible is more than a book about Jesus: It is a historical account of creation (how literal is up for debate.) It is a historical book of early religion and how life was 2000 years ago (and you must take into context how life was back then when reading it.) It is a cultural instruction book- for those that it was written to. (this is what much of what you posted falls into) -again, you have to take into account to whom it was written to (and why) when reading it. It may not apply to life in exactly the same way today as it did then. It is an eyewitness account of the life of Jesus. It is a book of love. The entire book, taken in the context as a whole book, tells of a God that wants nothing more than to be a vital part of the lives of those He created. Context is key. I can tell you of how my dad beat me with a belt repeatedly when I was younger and paint a picture of him that will make you think he is an abusive jerk. And when I do, I can totally leave out how it only happened a few times, or how it only happened when I deliberately did something he told me specifically not to. I can leave out how he warned me ahead of time, and I can leave out how we talked and hugged afterwards. and I can leave out how thankful I am to my father now that he had the sense to discipline me, even when I didn't fully understand the benefit it would have for me later in life. See, you can yank verses here and there that can make God look like a jerk, but when taken in the context of why they were written, whom they were written to, when they were written, and what they are actually saying- they mean something quite different.

I don't "fear an angry God"... the more you speak the more it becomes apparent that you have had an unhealthy experience with church, and I would guess have heard your share of "fire and brimstone" services. I apologize for those that have led you to this point in life. God is not about anger, spite, or wanting us to be scared of Him. He is about Love. Love that desires us to include Him in our lives- lives that He gave us.

Know it? Yes, I would agree most kids know that. Understand it? I don't think so. Anyone who has a teenager or works with them knows that the majority of teenagers have an invincibility complex- the good ole "It won't happen to me" mindset. That can be extremely dangerous wen mixed with sex (among other things- driving comes to mind.) Unfortunately, parents shy away from discussing sex more than anything else so kids are left to learn on their own. Parents will teach their kids the dangers of driving, but completely disregard sex because it is "uncomfortable" to talk about. Where did I say that wez? Have you been to a sex education class lately? They teach you about the pill, the patch, how to properly install a condom- but many barely mention abstinence. Teenagers should absolutely be aware of the consequences if they have sex, and they should absolutely be aware that abstinence is the only truly effective way to guarantee that you won't have to deal with any of those consequences. If that means scaring them- now that you mention it- I am ok with that. Not because I think "Sex is the debil!" but because anyone engaging in sex needs to understand what they are getting into BEFORE they get into it. The choice to remain abstinent is absolutely a sexual decision (and a birth control option at that,) and thus should be covered in sex ed.

If sex educations was really good thy could be taught that abstinence is 100% effective for preventing pregnancy and STD's. Of course, if Parents would stop using schools as babysitters and actually begin to parent their children again, it wouldn't be necessary for schools to get involved in something so personal and intimate...

My vote is sometime during the future Mrs Presidents first presidential PMS cycle...

I see your point, and saw it before. I just disagree with you. Much like the baptism thing before, there are sects of Christianity that believe "Once saved, always saved." These are the people that fit into the group of "Sunday Theists" as you called them elsewhere. I don't consider these people followers of Christ, and I don't think that He does either. (and I was one of them for YEARS. My family used to only go to church on Christmas and Easter, and to impress the grandparents when they came to visit.) As I read it, being a real follower of Christ is a life changing decision. Your life focus changes, your relationships change, how you live your life changes- not out of guilt or pressure, but out of devotion to your creator and gratitude for your own existence and forgiveness. This following and devotion of Christ is revocable by the follower at any time- just quit following. No fan fare necessary, not public announcement needed- just quit following. Your life apart from God will likely soon become evident to those around you (see: Hitler and Stalin and their life choices.) Being a Christian isn't a Nationality- ex.: I can't stop being white. Instead, it is a choice to have relationship with Christ, and a choice that even Christ himself doesn't force upon us.

oh shush! I fixed it!

I am fully aware you didn't say that. I said it. Here, I'll say it again: One cannot believe in God and not believe in Him at the same time. Atheists don't believe in some aspects of God- they don't believe in Him at all. And followers of God, by definition, cannot disbelieve in God. If they do, then they aren't followers anymore. I don't think you are stupid, and didn't mean to imply that. But the way that you reply inside someone else's quote box is annoying and makes it hard to differentiate between your words and the original quote. Plus, as I stated earlier, it makes it a pain in the buttocks to quote you, thus affecting the flow of the post. You learned to use the bold function, so now, please, learn to use the quote function. (there is even a quote icon in the reply box to help you with it.)

wez, there are some Christian sects that believe that if you aren't baptized that your salvation isn't complete. I don't agree with that. So the answer to your question, as I understand the situation- no. Baptism isn't necessary for salvation.

That is the stupidest thing I have read today. Poetry and Music do not contradict each other in belief. Atheism and Christianity do. You cannot believe in a God and not believe in him at the same time. duh... oh, and please learn to use the quote function properly. It makes it easier for others to quote you (like you do to us) and thus keep the discussion in order. Thanks.

This post confuses me... Did you not see the beginning of the otherpost? Or are you just trying to get the exact same discussion started?

Shiek, you are confusing me. First you say Hitler was a Christian, then you say he was an atheist, now you are back to saying he was a Christian... One does not have to vocalize the exact phrase: "I renounce God" to leave the Church or turn his back on God. The quotes that Timesjoke and Snafu have shared clearly show that Hitler turned his back on all religion, much less Christianity. Christians have done some mighty stupid things over the eons in the name of God as well, but Hitler actions show that he was clearly not acting in a Godly way.

Actually the Bible addresses this in Romans 1:18-20: and then this is backed up by your very astute observation: No those Amazon people don't know about Jesus (and thus cannot accept or reject Him,) but as I understand it they will be judged according to what they do know, and how they use what they know. They can look around them and acknowledge God's creation or they can ignore His place in their lives just like the rest of us can.

Minor thing: I really like the way the shoutbox tells us that someone replied to a post, but is there a way to set it so it shocks the hell out of people when they fill the shoutbox up because they didn't proofread before they hit submit and keep going back in and editing their post?

good job of covering your butt...

I think I disagree with this. I love Feckless, and admire her immensely, but what is the point of having a lifetime of experience if you don't and won't share it with your kids (even if they are adult?) I can see the point of not forcing these now thrust into adulthood children into doing what you want them to do, but isn't being a parent about guiding and leading your kids into healthy decisions? These two obviously aren't prepared to be making full grown adult decisions (shown by their lack of responsibility thusfar: the boy still living with the folks, and the girl not being able to tell her mom.) IMO, more guidance is needed- not just "Here's the facts, go do whatever you want." And maybe you are doing more than that Feckless, but it didn't come across like that to me.

Just as an FYI: Wikipedia isn't always the most reliable source for factual info. Not saying you are wrong Jhony5, as the crusades are nowhere not an expertise of mine, just saying.

Maybe you should stop in and ask? Mega-churches are the exception, not the rule. I forget the actual stat, but somewhere around 70-80% of the churches in the US have less than 100 in attendance each week. These are the churches that struggle to pay bills, these are the churches that need a paint job, have toilets that don't shut themselves off, have pastors that need second jobs to pay their own bills, and from my own experience- these are the churches that care and put into practice what the Bible teaches. Example: My pastor probably makes less in a month than most do in a week. As the youth pastor, I make more in five weeks at my second job (as a mechanic) than I make in a year as the youth pastor. Our children's pastor makes less than I do. We aren't in it for the money, so your "business" baloney won't work here. But this is the most caring church I have ever been a part of. As a church, we are cautious with the money God gives us to run on. and we survive. We don't have a big fancy mural or stained glass windows- because that isn't what we are about. Our sanctuary roof has water spots from where the roof leaked years ago. Yeah, it would be nice to repaint, but again, that isn't what we are about. We do have people in the church who step up and volunteer to paint things (our whole childrens area was just repainted- all with donated time and paint) and a couple years ago I repainted the youth rooms as a youth group project- again with all donated paint. We let the Boy and Cub scouts use our building for free. We used to have an AA group that met there twice a week. They actually left because we refused to charge them rent to be there. I still don't understand why they would choose that... I'm probably babbling, and I don't share any of this to brag- but hopefully you can see that making money isn't what all churches are about, and it isn't what any of them should be about. However, I do understand and agree that some are in it for the money, and that sickens me- probably more than it does you. I would prefer to see churches honor God more with service to and through their people than with glamorous and expensive buildings. Me thinks you need to broaden your horizons regarding church, as it appears all you see are the big glamorous buildings. Those are out there, but so are real people that really care. lol!!

If you honestly believe that swearing allegiance to Qwagnar is the answer to eternal salvation from working in the salt mines, then yes- I would hope that you would want to share that with others. You would be a selfish jerk not to. When the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc., come round knocking- I don't get upset at them. Sure it is an inconvenience and spreading of lies as far as I am concerned- but I understand the compassion that it takes to try to get others to see God before it is "to late." I see no need to get angry or bent out of shape about it- or call them stupid. In the end, when death comes- some of us are going to be right, and some of us are going to be wrong. Period. We cannot all be right. We cannot all be wrong. and frankly, whatever we face after death will be the same for everyone. If the Christian God is true- then I am good. But what do you have then? Nothing. (I don't believe "hell" is a physical place of fire, I think it is just eternal separation from God.) If we fade into the nothingness after we die- then you were right- Jesus and God were false. But you won't know it. and what will I have? I will have wasted my life trying to better myself, trying to be nicer to other people, and giving of my time, energy, and sometimes money to help others- because that is what the Bible teaches me to do. and ya know what? I'm ok with wasting my life like that. If one of the other religions is correct (and thus all others false)- then we are both screwed, lol. For now, I live my life with hope and an encouragement of things to come. I am forgiven, I am striving to be better than I was yesterday, and I try to treat others better than they treat me. Really now- what's so bad about that?

Those Christians sure are a bunch of asswipes for not wanting you to spend eternity in hell... What is their problem???